Dr. La Verne Ford Wimberly shares her advice on how to look your best no matter your age. Then Max talks to activist Dolores Huerta about where she finds the motivation to keep fighting for civil rights at age 91 and the one simple act we can all take to change the world.
Know someone who should be on 70 Over 70? We’re looking for all types of stories and people to feature at the top of the show. To nominate yourself or someone else, email 70over70@pineapple.fm or call 302-659-7070 and tell us your name, age, where you’re from and what you want to talk about.
transcription
[PRE-ROLL]
[OPENING MONTAGE]
Madeleine Albright: I know this program is 70 Over 70, but I really wish I were younger. I wish I was 70…but, I am ready!
[THEME MUSIC STARTS]
William: I’m 72 years old.
Paula: I’m 75, miraculously enough.
Sandy: I am 83 years old.
Betty: I am 88 years old.
James: You know, I’m here at 92.
Lucia: I’ll be 94 in May.
Donalda: I’m 101 years old.
La Verne Ford Wimberly: My name is Dr. La Verne Ford Wimberley, I am 82 years old, and I live in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
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La Verne: I think it's important to continue to look your best whether you are 25, 55, 75, 85, 95, or 105 because I believe when you look your best you do your best.
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La Verne: I started planning my outfits when I taught first grade in Chicago and I did not want to wear the same thing two days in a row and so to ensure that that did not happen, I started putting things down by the month on a 30 day-31 day, uh, rotation cycle.
I would attend, uh, conferences in various parts of the country. So each time I had a conference to go to, I'd hit the local stores and see what kind of fashions that they had. And so I just built a whole wardrobe based on my travels, but now that I've retired I just don't put them on unless it is Sunday or something really special that I'm going to. But for Sundays, I still maintain the calendar because my mother always told us that God gives us his best each and every day and the least we could do was to give our best on Sunday when we would go to church to worship. So the calendar is my friend [laughs].
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La Verne: I guess vanity would be one of the reasons why I don't want to repeat everything over and over, but I think it's important to continue to look your best, because it gives you something to look forward to. You're not just putting yourself into a rut, saying, “well, I'm older now and, you know, life has passed me by.” I think we ought to always aspire to living the best life we can and be a beacon of light. And my goal, I'm not sure whether the Lord, uh, agrees with me, but my goal is to live to 100 and I will still be continuing to dress and coordinate my colors as long as my mind is sharp, that allows me to do that.
[THEME MUSIC STARTS]
La Verne: They may need to bury the calendar with me [laughs].
Max Linsky: That was Dr. La Verne Ford Wimberly, and from Pineapple Street Studios, this is 70 Over 70, a show about making the most of the time we have left. I'm Max Linsky.
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Max: My guest this week is civil rights activist and labor organizer Dolores Huerta.
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Max: Dolores has fought for workers’ rights in America for over 60 years. She co-founded the United Farm Workers Union with Cesar Chavez, organized the famous Delano Boycott Strike, and in the late 1960s, she convinced more than 18 million Americans to stop eating grapes so that farm workers in California had the leverage to negotiate for the first time.
Her approach to organizing has been a template for civil rights groups – from the labor movement of today to the women’s march of 2016 – and over the course of her career, she has helped so many find power in their own voice. But for Dolores, it doesn’t feel like there’s much time to reflect on her life’s work. She's still organizing, still fighting, even though she knows that fight will outlast her.
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Max: I wanted to understand how it feels to dedicate your life to creating a world you know you’ll never see: how do you not get burnt out after you’ve – both literally and emotionally – been beaten down? How do you take care of yourself when the stakes feel so high? And is it possible to ever feel like you’ve done enough?
Dolores Huerta is 91 years old.
INTERVIEW
Max: Dolores, thanks for coming on the show. I, uh, I really appreciate it. It's an honor to talk to you.
Dolores Huerta: Thank you for inviting me.
Max: I have a lot that I want to ask you about, uh, but as I prepared for this, you know, I watched the documentary about you, I've listened to a number of speeches and interviews you've given, this phrase came up over and over again that I heard you use, which was "find your power." And I wondered if we could start by you telling me about when you found your power and what that phrase means to you.
Dolores I like to tell the story, uh, when I first started organizing and, uh, there was a gentleman that came to our office who was, uh, had suffered a stroke. He was a farm worker. He was on crutches and, uh, his family needed help. So I had gone down to the local welfare office to try to get him some kind of public assistance for his family and, uh, the woman that was there would not let us make an application for assistance.
Max: And how old were you? How old were you at the time?
Dolores: I was like 25 years old, and I was flabbergasted. I really didn't know what to do. So when I went back to our office and the gentleman that was there that was mentoring us at that time, a fellow named Fred Ross Sr., he told me, “you go right back down to that office and you demand to see a supervisor.” But the important thing about that moment is that he did not say, I'm going to go with you. He didn't say I'm going to call ahead of time and tell them that you're going down there. He didn't say, I'm going to give you a note. He just said, “you go down there and you demand to see a supervisor.” And I thought, wow, I can do that? [Max laughs] So that's exactly what I did. I went down there and took the gentleman with me. And so, of course, they had to let him make an application for assistance, which he did receive. So I learned a very big lesson then that one can use your voice. And that is one of the great lessons of Mr. Ross taught us, is that every single public official in every single public agency that they work for us because we pay their salaries through our taxes. And so that-that was a big lesson. And I think that is the main thing that we do as organizers is to try to remove the fear that people have and the apathy that people have so they can understand that they have personal power. [Right.] And it has nothing to do with money, has nothing to do with how many college degrees that you have or not have. That it just has to do with you learning how to use your own personal power.
Max: How did you feel on that walk after he had said “you're going to go back there and do this and you're going to do it on your own” ? Because I'm interested in how it actually feels to find your power, if you can pinpoint that to a moment, how did it feel?
Dolores: Well, uh, needless to say, I was very anxious, had a lot of butterflies in my stomach [Max laughs], very nervous, afraid that I would get turned down when I asked to see the supervisor. And of course, that was a good lesson, too, because later on in life, when I had to deal with people in power, I learned that you have to be tenacious.What I would do if I would just go in to their office and to sit there, literally sit there from 9:00 to 5:00 until they spoke to me. And sometimes it took a few days of sitting in somebody's office until they would give me a meeting.
Max: And did you have the same feelings when you were sitting in someone's office that you did on that walk? Like, were you still nervous and anxious or at some point did that go away for you?
Dolores: Well, I think you're always a little bit nervous. Cesar Chavez used to say “if you're not nervous, that means it's not important”. In some respects, it's a little like a little bit of excitement, but you know that you're going to make people uncomfortable. And, of course, that isn't a very nice feeling either, because in trying to accomplish your goals and your aims, people at the other end of, uh, at the end of what you try to do, they're not going to be very happy with you.
Max: Does that get easier? Did that get easier for you? I mean, your life's work has been making comfortable people uncomfortable.
Dolores: Uh, yes. And that's why I guess that's what John Lewis called the good trouble, right? Yeah, that's the way that he defines it, good trouble. And in a way, you have to look at it this way, too, because even when you're organizing people and you're trying to get them involved, you are interfering in their lives literally, you know, because you're asking them to give up what they have, which is the most precious resource that anyone has, which is your time. And you're asking them to give up their time to come to a meeting, to go to a city council meeting, to go to a school board meeting, to come to a demonstration. So this is what we do as organizers and so we do make people uncomfortable.
Max: Yeah. Yeah and I guess, you know, as I watch that documentary and started to understand the contours of your life more, I found myself really curious about when that became your second nature, you know. Like, when the transition happened, how you go from being 25 and needing that pep talk to this is my work. This is what I do. This is my power. Is that something that happens gradually or does it happen quickly, like--
Dolores: Well, it's more like something of a scale, you might say, it's something that you learn how to do, because I think so often we are told, you know, growing up that you have to be polite, you have to be nice. Uh, you're not supposed to make people uncomfortable. Oh, and then we could go a little step further to people of color, we have to keep your place, right? It's learning a new skill and being comfortable with it and knowing that when you are putting pressure on politicians or on leaders, you're not doing anything wrong. What you're doing is you're doing something right.
Max: I understand how finding your power fits with what you're talking about with large scale organization in politics. I'm curious about what it means personally. Like, how does it manifest for you outside of the work or is there nothing outside of the work?
Dolores: Well, I think it has a big impact because, uh, often, you know, everyone, they get so involved, engrossed in their own personal lives, the issues that we have family issues or work issues, and it becomes all consuming. And if we can take part of our day of every day and just think about what's happening on the political scene….I have been, uh, quoting Michael Moore a lot, the documentary filmmaker. I saw his show on Broadway and he said this, he said, “when we wake up in the morning, you wash your face, you brush your teeth and then call your congressman.” [Max laughs] And this is something that we should do every single day. And when we focus on the big picture, it kind of helps you deal with your own personal problems because, uh, your own personal problems, they're going to be taken care of one way or the other. They will resolve themselves eventually. But the big issues that are at stake, they need our attention, like, right now, immediately.
Max: I don't know. I don't know. That feels a little, um, it feels a little casual to me to just--to say that your personal things were resolved one way or another. Like, that takes work too, right?
Dolores: Well, yeah. It does take work. But it shouldn't be the all consuming things in your life. You know, you have to think about other things also.
Max: I know I'm harping on this a little bit, but I'm really genuinely trying to figure it out. So, uh, just bear with me. You have this experience when you're 25, you find your power, you get that farm worker social security for his family, and it starts this path for you where you dedicate your life to taking that power you have found and fighting for other people. And I guess the thing I was wondering was, do you ever use that power for yourself?
Dolores: Um...well, I would have to reflect on that and, uh, I don't know exactly how, I think maybe in terms of defending oneself or standing up to people when they demean you or they degrade you. I would say, yes, one has to use one's power to definitely defend one's person.
Max: Is there something you're thinking of when you say that? Something from your life?
Dolores: Well, I guess I could, uh, say when I was beaten by the police in San Francisco. Uh yes, I filed a lawsuit against the city of San Francisco for that beating that I received at the hands of one of their policemen.
Max: Was filing the lawsuit, like, fighting back your power manifesting?
Dolores: Well, I think so. And I think we see that happening today when you have so many people are being killed by police and their families are filing lawsuits on behalf of the victims that they lost.
Max: That moment when you were beaten by police, you've had violence perpetrated against you many times in your life. Did you ever think about retaliating? Is there something about finding that power, knowing that power, that allows you to endure and not give up?
Dolores: Well, of course, I mean, many people thought I did after I had received that beating that I would stop organizing, but of course that would have been the furthest thing from my mind. But the other thing, too, you know, because during the 60s, for instance, you had a lot of organizations that were very militant. We in the United Farm Workers, we were often criticized because they felt that we were too soft, that we were not using violent tactics. So we had a lot of criticisms because of our position on nonviolence, as did Dr. Martin Luther King.
Max: So you've never doubted that idea of nonviolence?
Dolores: No, I haven't.
Max: And when you were beaten by the police, you broke three ribs. You had to have your spleen removed. At any point in that process did you question whether you would continue the work?
Dolores: Oh, no.
Max: It didn't cross your mind.
Dolores: No.
Max: Are you an optimistic person?
Dolores: Yes, I am. I'm an optimist because I really do have faith in people and going back, I guess to the very basic tone of our conversation, I do believe in people. I believe that people, once they know what the right thing to do, they should be doing and the people will respond and that they will engage. And and we saw that happen. We just saw that happen in this election, in spite of all of the untruths and the lies and so many obstacles that people had just in voting--the voter suppression that was going on--this is the hope of our country. So I just have a lot a lot of hope, especially in the young.
Max: I find it so inspiring that you do, because I feel like also in your work, you have seen people fight so hard against, I think, what's empirically right. Like, you have seen these horrors. Like you've seen the worst in humanity and then also have seen Robert Kennedy assassinated. Did any of that shake that hope or optimism for you?
Dolores: Well, these are very hard things to accept when you have leaders like Robert Kennedy, Dr. King, our president, John Kennedy, you know, Malcolm X, when you have--when you see that our leaders are murdered, it is sad. It's distressing. But the thing is that if you stop working, then you are also giving in to the assassin's bullet. You're taking their side. You know, in the farm worker movement, we had five farm workers that were killed. Five innocent farm workers that were killed. Why? Just to be able to get bathrooms in the field, cold drinking water on these hot days, a rest period, unemployment insurance, the right to organize into a union? Five people that were killed. And you can think why? [Right.] I mean, you know, it doesn't make any kind of sense, you know? So if anything, I think it makes us want to work a lot harder and give more time to-to change things and to make things right.
Max: Well, that's--I think that's what I'm trying to ask about, Dolores. And maybe I can just be more direct. Like when…when tragedies have happened in my life, they have been motivating, they have made me want to do things, they have also made me more cynical. They've made me less hopeful. They've exposed to me some darkness about the world. And I think what I'm trying to ask is like, can you do that work without being optimistic? Can you do that work without being hopeful about people?
Dolores: Well, the work has to get done, OK? [Max laughs] And somebody's got to do it. And so if you stop doing the work, then you know what's going to happen? If anything, I think that when something like this happens, it makes you understand that you've got to work a lot harder, that you've got to organize more people and I think we're kind of at that point right now in our society that we know we have to do a lot more work. We've got to get more good people elected to office and-and that the work does have a product. And the product that we're looking for is that the products of justice--social justice. We know that we can win because we won before.
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Dolores: We know that we can make progress because we know that progress has been made, even though there are pushbacks in-in the long run, we can look back and we can say, “yeah, this is the way it was then and this is the way it is now. And we definitely are going forward.”
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Max: It's amazing, Dolores, you know, I feel like, um... well, I feel a little ridiculous because I feel like I keep asking you the same question and-and maybe the question in itself is kind of ridiculous, but it really says something to me that I keep asking about hope and feelings and you keep returning to the work. Like, the work getting done is what matters to you.
Dolores: Yeah and the work-and the work gives you energy. Uh, when you're out there working, as long as you're working, you know that you're doing something good, you're getting more people involved. We do see some victories and that really keeps you going.
Max: Is it hard to keep going? Like, you're-you're 90 and you're still working your ass off, right?
Dolores: Yes, I am [both laugh].
Max:Is it a challenge or is there-is there, like, no other way you could do it?
Dolores: Well, no, because it's something that I love to do. And when you are doing what you like to do, it's not-- it's not even work.
Max: It's not hard to keep the energy up.
Dolores: No, of course not.
Max: You say of course not. I'm-I’m 50 years younger than you and it seems exhausting to me.
Dolores: Yeah, well, it'-- it's my life. It's my lifestyle. And that's what I do.
Max: Yeah, more like a way of life. I mean, I think that's part of what I've been asking you about, you know, is like to what degree is this life you've led been a choice or just the only way that you could live your life, you know?
Dolores: But I do want to say to people out there, though, you know, they don't have to devote all of their life the way that I have done. But again, I just say to everyone, at least take part of your life. Take part of your week, take part of your day to think, what can I do today? Or what can I do this week to be part of this movement that we need this big social justice movement that we need in our United States of America?
Max: It's interesting that, like, your advice is you don't have to do everything but do something.
Dolores: Exactly.
Max: And yet, I feel like you have been fully in the I'm going to do everything camp, like, there's this movement in the Dolores documentary where a journalist is asking you, like, were you going to take some time for yourself? You could go, like, get your hair done at the spa and you're kind of like, why would I do that? And I was really struck by that moment. And it made me wonder, like…. I don't know. Do you feel like you've, like, taken care of yourself over the course of your life?
Dolores: Oh, I'm guessing in some respects I could have done a better job on that, but I'm very fortunate that I have lived to be 91 years old.
Max: Yeah. Do you have regrets about how completely your work dominated your life? Like, do you wish that you, uh, had just been able to let yourself go to the movies sometimes?
Dolores: Oh, no. I do-I do, uh, take any moment that I can to do some recreation. If it weren't for the pandemic, every Tuesday night, I would go to a jazz workshop that we have here, a lot of great music, not just the Western music, uh but a lot of blues, good blues music, a lot of good jazz music. And of course,uh, any time we have celebrations and go dancing and these are all things that I really like and I definitely include them in my life.
Max: Well, jazz is an interesting thing for you to bring up, right, because you sort of had to give it up when you moved to live with farmers.
Dolores: Yes, I did. But luckily, when I went to New York City on the boycott, oh, my gosh, there I was right there in New York City. Right there in Harlem [both laugh]. And I was very fortunate that I met this, uh, Lutheran minister. He ministered to the jazz community and so by meeting him, then I was able to get into all of the clubs there in Harlem and I was able to, again, soak up so much jazz and meet so many of these great musicians.
Max: Well, it's so wonderful that it's like come back into your life in this time, too. I mean, you know, you're not doing it during the pandemic, but before that, it was there for you every Tuesday night. Are there other things that in this time of your life you've been able to make time for that when you were younger, you weren't able to do?
Dolores: Well, I think, you know, because I'm a Latina and Latino families, you know, we-we love to have celebrations. We have not been able to have in this entire year, but I have a huge family, and so I think this is probably-probably what we enjoy the most is just having the family get togethers. And so still having family celebrations is very important.
Max: So one of the things that you've been able to prioritize or make time for later in your life is family. Because you weren't able to do that when you were younger, right? I mean, you had 11 kids, but were working so hard that you didn't get a ton of time with them, right?
Dolores: That's true for many, many years. But, uh, having caught up though in these later years, we've been able to have, uh, many family celebrations. And-and it's important, too, because members of my family, like my two brothers, have passed on. And so having family celebrations is very important.
Max: Are you the matriarch? Do you keep people together?
Dolores: Uh, yes, I guess I am [laughs]. That has been really pointed out to me by some of my nephews and nieces that I am now the matriarch of our family.
Max: Do you think about your legacy? Do you think about how you will be remembered when you're gone?
Dolores: Hopefully as an organizer. I would just hope that people will remember that we all have the power and that power is in our person and that all we have to do is join with others, take direct nonviolent action, and we can make democracy work.
Max: I think part of the reason I ask that question is because I know for years, for decades, even, you were reluctant to take credit for your work. And we haven't talked much about Cesar Chavez in this conversation, but you two founded that organization together. He got most of the attention. And I wondered, sort of reading through your life story, whether you were at peace with that?
Dolores: Well, Cesar Chavez was a genius, what he was able to accomplish was unbelievable. But [laughs] it was interesting when you mention that because, uh, when we started the-the union, as Cesar and I had the conversation and he said, “one of us has to be the spokesperson for the organization. Uh, Is it OK with you if I am the spokesperson?” And of course, I did not even give it a second thought. I said, “ Of course not Cesar, of course.” But it was kind of interesting because actually what actually happened is, uh, when we were organizing the grape boycott, I pretty much became the spokesperson for the organization because people didn't even know who Cesar was. And I think about the people that were killed in the organization, people don't know their names. There are many, many people that were jailed, people that were beaten, people that lost their homes, you know. And so, you know, getting, uh, quote unquote recognition is to me, a very minor thing when you think of how many sacrifices so many people made and when you at the front of the march, you get the publicity and you get the recognition. But again, knowing that if there's nobody behind you in that march, you really….you're not very much, you know. You stand on the shoulders of almost all of the people that made sacrifices. You don't do the work for recognition. You do the work because it needs to be done.
Max:Yeah, I feel like that's, um, that's like the headline for our conversation. You do work because it needs to be done.
Dolores: Exactly. Yes.
Max: You said a couple of times to me that time is the most precious resource that you have. Do you think differently about time now at 90 than you did at 25 or 30?
Dolores: Well, yes, I do, because, uh, I guess time is always very precious. And, uh, very definitely you do look at time, maybe a little bit more seriously.
Max: Yeah, do you find yourself thinking and wondering about how much time you have left?
Dolores: Oh, that-that thought occurs to me occasionally, but it's something that you really don't want to dwell on [Max laughs]. The main thing is you want to accomplish as much as you can in the time that you have.
Max: When does it occur to you? When do you find yourself thinking about it?
Dolores: Ah, well, I really can't say when. Maybe once in a while it just pops into your head. When you think of some projects that, you know, you will never you won't be around to see them realized. Like., right now we're actually raising money to do a building. We have a whole city block and we're raising money to do a campus and it'll be like an organizing institute. It's going to be the Peace and Justice Cultural Center with a theater attached to it and a daycare, and a youth component to it. And so I probably won’t be here to see when the building is actually built, you know. But that doesn't mean that I'm not going to work as hard as I can to help raise the money for the building.
Max: Do you think that you'll ever feel like you've done enough?
Dolores: No. As long as there's work that needs to be done. I'll put it this way. I'll do as much as I can, as long as I can.
Max: As much as you can, as long as you can. But the work...the work itself doesn't end, there's not some goal, there's not some moment that you're driving towards.
Dolores: Well, there's some hope -- there's some things that we hope for that hopefully I will be able to see before I'm gone, like having a national health care, having a free college education and having, uh, again, more immigration reform, having ethnic studies in every single school district throughout the United States of America. I think some of those things can be accomplished while I'm still around.
Max: Are you hopeful that they will be?
Dolores: I think so, ‘cause I think America has had a rude awakening. And I think many Americans are seeing that everybody has to-to step in now.
Max: But as someone who's been fighting for these issues for 60, 70 years, this feels like a time of momentum to you.
Dolores: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
Max: That's good to hear.
Dolores: Yeah, this feels very much like the 60s.
Max: Yeah? Does it make you sort of nostalgic for that time?
Dolores: Not nostalgic, but hopeful. I call it the 60s on steroids.
Max: [laughs] How-how come? How come?
Dolores: Oh, just-just because I do believe that now you have global movements that are happening now, as we saw with the women's marches, with the Black Lives Matter marches, that they became global because we know that the classism and the racism is not delegated here to the US. It's all over the world.
Max: 60s on steroids. I like the sound of that. That makes me feel hopeful, too.
Dolores: I wanted to kind of give a little example. I've been thinking about this while we've been talking. But when I think about the situation of the farm workers that we had in the 60s and trying to bring a measure of justice to farm workers, even though, you know, we're farm workers, marched and they went on strike, it wasn't until you had the American public that it did one simple thing. They didn't buy grapes [laughs]. The American public gave up eating grapes, and that is what brought the growers to the table. One simple little thing: Don't eat grapes. And it was people all over the United States that did this for farmworkers.
Max: 18 million people, right?
Dolores: Right! And it was amazing, when you think about it, that it was that one simple act that brought the growers to the table and brought justice to farm workers. And I think that we can repeat that again.
Max: It's funny, Delores, I feel like I've been asking 15 different ways throughout this conversation for you to basically help me understand how you stay hopeful. And I think you just did. Which is that you actually seen people put other people before themselves. You've seen 18 million people do it. And so you sort of know it can happen again.
Dolores: Yes, it can. Sí, se puede.
Max: [laughs] All right. Here's my last question, which I think anyone listening will be wondering, which is if in the 1960s, the thing that could mobilize people, the simple act that could mobilize people, was not eating grapes, do you have some sense of what that thing could be now? What is the simple thing that Americans could do now that would change the world?
Dolores: Yeah, it's called voting.
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CREDITS
Max: 70 Over 70 is a production of Pineapple Street Studios, and it’s produced by Jess Hackel.
Our associate producer is Janelle Anderson. Our editors are Maddy Sprung-Keyser and Joel Lovell. Research and additional reporting by Charley Locke.
Our mixers are Raj Makhija and Elliott Adler. And Jenna Weiss-Berman and I are the executive producers.
Our theme song is Like a Dream by Francis and the Lights and the music you’re listening to right now is by Arthur Russell, who would have been 70 this year. Original music by Terence Bernardo. Additional music by Noble Kids, and music licensing by Dan Knishkowy.
Our cover art is by Maira Kalman, who’s 72. And our episode art is by Lynn Staley. She’s 73 and she’s also my mom.
Thank you Dr. Ford Wimberly, and thank you Dolores Huerta.
I’m Max Linsky. Thanks for listening.
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