Liliana Weisbek reveals why she’s not interested in writing a will. Then Max talks with actor James Hong about playing more than 600 roles over the course of his Hollywood career, why he thinks the entertainment industry will never give Asian actors the support they deserve, and why he continues to pursue his dreams of playing the lead role in a movie despite having given up hope that it will ever come true.
Know someone who should be on 70 Over 70? We’re looking for all types of stories and people to feature at the top of the show. To nominate yourself or someone else, email 70over70@pineapple.fm or call 302-659-7070 and tell us your name, age, where you’re from and what you want to talk about.
transcription
[PRE-ROLL]
[OPENING MONTAGE]
Madeleine Albright: I know this program is 70 Over 70, but I really wish I were younger. I wish I was 70…but, I am ready!
[THEME MUSIC STARTS]
William: I’m 72 years old.
Paula: I’m 75, miraculously enough.
Sandy: I am 83 years old.
Betty: I am 88 years old.
James: You know, I’m here at 92.
Lucia: I’ll be 94 in May.
Donalda: I’m 101 years old.
Liliana: Mi nombre es Liliana Luisa Weisbek, tengo 71 años, y vivo en Argentina.
[THEME MUSIC FADES OUT]
Liliana: OK. OK. Yo estaba como obsesionada con los testamentos escribí mi primer testamento cuando tenia 10 anos, y bueno obviamente era un testamento falso...
[MUSIC FADES IN]
[SPANISH FADES INTO ENGLISH TRANSLATION]
Liliana: When I was a child, I was obsessed with writing wills. They were a fake will, of course. I began to write those wills as an act of revenge against my mother. I remember reading a novel where a little girl was punished by her mother, the little girl died, and then the mother realized how badly she had treated her daughter. When I was born, my mother began to have serious health problems and she always blamed me for her illness. I would always feel like it was my fault. So, I thought that maybe if I died and my mother saw my will, she would regret what she had said to me.
[MUSIC CONTINUES]
Liliana: I would write my wills on a nice piece of paper. I was always careful to use my best handwriting. In the will, I would leave my belongings and who I wanted to give them to. For example...
[SPANISH FOLLOWED BY ENGLISH TRANSLATION]
Liliana: A mi hermano le dejaba mis libros. My books to my brother. A una compañera de colegio le dejaba mi oso de color naranja. The orange bear to a schoolmate. A otra compañera de colegio le dejaba una muñeca muy linda. My beautiful doll to school mate A mi mejor amiga, le dejaba una carterita. A little purse to my best friend and so on…. I must have written 10 or 11 over the next two or three years.
[MUSIC CONTINUES]
Liliana: I stopped writing wills when I entered secondary school. I guess I started to focus on building a life rather than thinking about death and what would happen to my things if I died. I started to let go of how much my relationship with my mom had a hold on me. And then I never thought about wills again.
[MUSIC FADES OUT}
Liliana: Now that I’m a mother and a grandmother, I understand that the relationship between a mother and a daughter is complicated. I understand more about how she felt. I feel differently about the idea of the will now. I actually don't have a will. But I do think about what I want to leave to my daughters. I want my daughters to remember me when they read my books, I want my granddaughter to remember me through my cookware because we love to bake together, but more than all those things, I want them to remember me because of the love I gave them.
When I wrote the wills as a child, it was about sadness. It was about revenge. But for me, the emotion of leaving things behind has changed.
[THEME MUSIC STARTS]
Liliana: If I wrote a will in this moment, it would be because of love.
Max Linsky: That was Liliana Luisa Weisbek, and from Pineapple Street Studios, this is 70 Over 70, a show about making the most of the time we have left. I'm Max Linsky.
[THEME MUSIC CONTINUES]
Max: My guest this week is James Hong.
You might not know his name, but you know his face. James is an actor, and a prolific one: he’s got more than 600 credits.
[THEME MUSIC FADES OUT]
Max: He was in Blade Runner, and Chinatown, and Kung-Fu Panda. By some counts, he’s appeared in more movies than anyone else in history.
And yet, of those 600 plus roles, only 10 of them were characters who were not defined by being Asian, and he has never once been the lead.
Over the decades he has worked tirelessly — both as an actor, but also as an activist, fighting for Asian-American representation in film and tv. He started a theater dedicated to developing Asian-American talent. And he has spoken out repeatedly about how the industry has failed him and so many others. We talked this spring, in the midst of a wave of hate crimes against Asian Americans, and once again, James was making his voice heard.
Despite those years of fighting, James doesn’t think much will change — either in Hollywood, or in the rest of the country.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Max: And I wanted to understand how he balances that anger and disappointment with the abundant pride he takes in his work. I wanted to know how James keeps acting, keeps doing this thing he’s loved since he was a little kid, even though he’s lost hope that the roles he’ll be asked to play will ever change.
James Hong is 92 years old.
INTERVIEW
Max: James, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for doing this.
James: Thank you, Max. I'm glad to be here.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Max: I've got so many questions for you, but I don't know how to start anywhere other than this incredible number of roles that you have played in your life. Over 500 credits at this point, is that right?
James: Mm hmm. Well, Daniel Day Kim, um, who was trying to get the star on the Walk of Fame for me, he-he counted six hundred, you know, so...
Max: All right.
James: I don't know, somewhere between 500 and 600.
Max: Listen, I'll give you 600 [James laugh], you can take it. Let's put that on the record.
James: Still growing [laughs]!
Max: Well, I want to ask you about how it's still growing and where you find the energy and the motivation to keep doing this work, but looking back for a second at all of those roles, I wonder, like, what it's like for you. Like, do all those roles blend together now?
James: Yeah, that's a good good question, because I've never been asked that, how it all rolls together. Of course it's, um, in my brain here in those little cells so they got to come back once in a while, whether it's Have Gun—Will Travel, you know, or some other thing with like the early ones with John Wayne, and uh, Bill Holden, you know, they got to come echoing back at you because it's there in your head. For instance, I just happened to find the, um, Groucho Marx show.
Max: Yeah, that's where you got your break, right?
James: It-it started, like you say at that point, because I came to California just to look around and, uh, maybe try to get a gig with my comedy partner, Don Parker. And there was nothing going on. They didn't want, uh, you know, semi professionals. We weren't really professionals, we were just a couple of guys from Minnesota, you know, so we just, horse around and had a good time at the Palladium and whatnot. And all of a sudden this writer, comedy writer says, “hey, I'd like to get you on the Groucho Marx show.” So he pitched it to Groucho and Groucho said, “I don't want impersonators,” you know, because he pitched me as an impersonator, the writer said, “but this is a Chinese comic who can impersonate you.” He says, “oh, OK, bring him on”. So that's how it all came about. I got on the show, did an impersonation of him and many others and the audience loved it. And that gig, changed my whole life because I was going back that summer after the summer vacation back to the University of Minnesota and finish my degree in civil engineering.
Max: And you never went back?
James: I did go back and transfer all my credits to USC and pack all my junk and we jump on my old Buick, uh and so I went to SC and I finished civil engineering. I'm a-- in other words, I'm a bona fide bachelor of engineering. So I built roads for L.A. County for a while. I just went back, in fact, the other day to the building on Main Street and said, “Ah, you know, I used to be there [both laugh] on the, I think, sixth floor or something. And you know it, how can you explain all these things that happens in your life? You can't explain it. You were just there and things happen.
Max: Well, I got to tell you, I'm, uh, I'm not going to let you off the hook quite that easy with you just can't explain it [James laughs]. I'm going to try and, um, help figure it out and we'll see if we get there.
James: So do you charge for a psychoanalyst fee?
Max: [laughs] You'll get the bill in the mail.
James: [laughs] And I'll send you mine [laughs].
Max: Fair, very fair. That kid who came to L.A., how old were you?
James: At that time, I had just finished the, um, service in the army and artillery during the Korean War, so I was 22 or something.
Max: I didn't know that you had fought in the Korean War. How did that experience change you?
James: Ah, another unexplainable thing, you know. I was in the University of Minnesota to the National Guards of Minnesota. So during the Korean War, the government says activate them, you know, put those viking troops into the war. So all of a sudden I got this notice from the Army and that says, “pack your stuff, we're going to Camp Rucker, Alabama.” So I did that. So I was ready to go overseas to fight in the Korean War, uh... there was a camp show, and so I went on the camp show and did myAl Jolson and you know the next day, believe it or not, almost prior to us jumping on the airplane and going to Korea, the general of the fort of Camp McClellan says, “Get that guy that sang Al Jolson. I have a feeling about him. Let him stay here and work in the special services.” So I didn't have to go to Korea. I was the only guy in the camp that was handling the entertainment for the troops and having public relations with the community. And I did all that. I think I did a good job because they kept me there. And the Major [unclear], who was head of special services, took me to Atlanta and so forth and so forth, so forth. But that, again, is another event that changed my life [Yeah!] because I figured I would have died in Korea, for sure. I would have froze to death because I can't take the cold [laughs].
Max: Even though you're from Minnesota?
James: Isn't that funny? I used to bundle up and go out and shovel snow and all that stuff. But Korea, my friends told me my--you know, the ones who went there said it was cold.
Max: When you got on that stage in Alabama, was your ambition to be an actor? To be a performer?
James: I always wanted to be a performer in one way or another. I guess you would have to go back a little. My father told me, um, that in Minnesota, Minneapolis, where we had an herb store, he said during the Japanese war, when Japan was attacking China, he would put me up on one of those crates, probably about 7 years old or whatever. And he says, “go ahead, James. You know, sing your song and speak.” And so I guess I was told that I was saying patriotic speeches about, you know, “we must save China and we must drive Japan out of China” and this is in Cantonese, I was doing it in those days [laughs]. So the people, the store owners that gather around during Sunday at my dad's store applauded and I guess that fed my desire to speak up and perform. So from that moment on, I-I did impersonations in front of the mirror because there's no audience for me. And I got into the drama class and so forth, although in high school they didn't know what to do with James Hong. Although he's a good and talented--the teacher, Miss Gross says “well, What should we do with him because in the class play there's no Chinese roles?”
[MUSIC FADES IN]
James: So that part of the prejudice--hidden prejudice--affected me very early, and it rode with me to Hollywood, you know, and then I was faced with the same problem.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
[BREAK/MIDROLL]
[MUSIC FADE IN]
[MUSIC FADE OUT]
Max: Let's go back to Alabama for a second. [Mm hmm.] So you're on that stage, you get told, “OK, you're not going to Korea, you're just going to perform,” and at that point, did you think to yourself, maybe I've got a future in this, maybe-maybe I should go to Hollywood and try and be a performer?
James: No, no. None of that came into my head. I just listened as a good soldier, go to a special services and they hand me all these duties and to carry out, you know, the audition, all the GIs that want to perform and keep the morale up. You know, that's my job. But there are performers in the Army, like when I was in special services, there were a lot of performers from New York, from Broadway and so forth. So I-I formulated a show and they perform. So they feel so much better and the audience, of course, the GIs that were there on the camp, loved it. I saw that this needs to be done not only here in the camp, but has to be done to the community surrounding, uh, Camp Rucker and Fort McClellan. So I organized that show and then I took it to the community.
Max: Mm hmm. If you didn't feel like you had found your calling at that point, when did that happen for you? When did you feel like this is what I'm supposed to be doing?
James: Of course, like I said, it probably unknowingly started in, uh, in the Army [right], but that's life, isn’t it? You can't call it a calling because what's a calling? That's just a word. Again, you just tell those little cells in your brain and-and feelings in your heart tells you to go ahead and do it [yeah]. When I came to Hollywood, you know um, I progressed to organizing the Chinese acting community because I saw that um, you know, in those days, especially when I first became an actor here in Hollywood, there was nothing but cliché roles, as you can well see in my repertoire and my resume. There were-it was all roles of persecuted Chinamen and, uh, always being rescued by the white guys like Have Gun—Will Travel and sorrow and whatever it is, we were never the leaders or the leading person. We were always the secondary guy being rescued or doing something bad, in a sense, the villains. So I was able to play all those roles. You know, I-I, thank God, had the talent to play many, many roles. However I was not happy with it because I was walking into a society here in California where everything was status quo and now they say, you know, when do you realize this? I realize this now, looking back the Exclusion Act when no Chinese were allowed to immigrate into, uh, America. That was still going. And the burning of Chinatown and the last of the 1800s where they drove the Chinese and killed the Chinese in L.A., that was lingering. In fact, when I my father and I wanted to buy a house on Beverly Boulevard, the guy from next door came out and said, “we don't want Chinese in this neighborhood.” So, you know, you can see that lingering feeling from the early railroad worker days to the time when I arrived. And so the acting community and the... community at large was placed in that position of the silent minority and that just kept lingering.
Max: How did it feel to play those roles when you had problems with those roles? I assume that you felt like you needed to do it for your career, but also, you had problems with what you were doing, like, how did you square that?
James: Obviously those were the only roads that were offered in the first place. And if you want to work, you play those roles. So in a sense, I played those roles the best I could. I put my heart and soul in finding the real human being behind those, uh, roles I was given. So in a sense, it was no longer a cliché role. It was a human being being persecuted or rescued. I put the real human being into those roles and even in my role in Big Trouble Little China, people love that guy Lo Pan because he was just looking for a girl. A girl that he could married and love and so forth and how can you fault a guy for doing that [laughs]? And I think you can see that passion that Lo Pan had for finding happiness, you know, instead of being just a dirty villain, killing people and whatnot. So in a sense, my heart and my training made it possible for me to do the 600 roles, the way I want to do it.
Max: Did you resent it that you had to do that work yourself?
James: Yes, I did the best I could, but then I got sick and tired of it. I formed a protest in Hollywood against a film called Confessions of the Opium Eater by Albert Zugsmith, where they portray all the Chinese as sinister characters, that was the first protest. But that and then together with that, I called Mako who got the nomination for Sand Pebbles, another actor, and we said we have to do something and that's why I started the East West players to do something of our own using the talents that we have and-and, you know, doing all the characters, all Asians. And Mako's gone, but East West Players are still there doing great things.
Max: It's an incredible list of alumni from that program, but I wonder, before you started it, like when you staged that first protest, how risky did that feel? Like, you're still trying to make a name for yourself in Hollywood, try and make a career. Did you feel like you were putting that in jeopardy by calling out the system?
James: I wish it had that much attention. We didn't really get any attention. You just have to do your individual efforts to build and care, put your soul and heart into your performance as an actor, and that will do something. And it did. Look at now Steven Yeun is the first Asian to ever get nominated for a leading role in the Academy Awards.3 It took that long for James Hong to arrive at 1953 to now you're talking about 68 years of just pushing--working for progress until now. That's awfully slow. I cannot live another six, seven years to see some more progress. And-and unfortunately, it's even worse nowadays. There it's hate for the Asian community by these uh...murderers, even. You know, it just happened, right?
Max: Yes.
James: So I as a citizen have joined efforts with others to try our best to stop it--Daniel Day Kim has gone to Washington to speak up--telling people to act decent to Asian Americans because we have contributed so much as a society, we are part of it, a very integral part.
Max: What is it like for you to watch these hate crimes being committed after having worked for so long for progress for Asian-American actors in Hollywood? Like, what’s it like for you to see these headlines?
James: I can't believe that is happening. And I, like many other Asians are wondering why is it happening? And I, for one, would like to really know what's in the brain of these people who are hating the Asian-Americans. What are they thinking about? You know, are they thinking that we caused the-the virus here? But after the March 12th, everything shut down here in Hollywood. So we're all suffering from it.
Max: James, are there roles that you wish you got to play?
James: Well, um, if I had my druthers, I would like to play some leading man in a movie where the role really counts, you know? And if not, then it has to be a principal character in real life. Like, I-I hardly ever play a scientist, a doctor, a businessman, an executive. Have you ever seen those roles portrayed by Asians and yet they're all over in America? The doctors, the lawyers, the business, uh, leaders, you know, the scientists, You know, they're not here for James Hong and-and my fellow actors, it's terrible. The producers and directors have to think of that. Put us into those roles, you know, open up, let's see some real diversity and not just talk about it, you know. I'm sick of talking. You know, I'm here at 92, nothing has really been done. People--there are actors and creators like Daniel Day Kim have advance in the sense that they open up their own company, but where's the thinking of the industry as a whole? I haven't seen anything. You know, I'm tired of waiting. Anyway, no use just talking about it.
Max: What do you make of the success of Parasite or Minari or Crazy Rich Asians? Does-does that feel significant to you or no?
James: Yeah, I think those are very important films, but there's still films--very good films--about the Asian life. I would like to see the Asian actors get into the mainstream movies as mainstream characters. That's where I'm at right now. I'm not belittling those pictures of Crazy Rich Asians and so forth. They're very well done. And those are the things that probably will lift us into another level. But I like to see the, uh, motion picture industry as a whole give us a hand.
Max: Do you think that'll happen?
James: Do I think that will happen? [laughs] No. No, it won't happen. You have to do it for yourself.
Max: What do you do with that? When you're 92, you've played 600 something rolls and this thing you've wanted the whole time you don't think will ever happen. What do you do with that? Why do you keep-why do you keep taking jobs?
James: Well, first of all, I'm a born entertainer. I love to act. God gave me the talent to do and I'm going to keep doing it because it's what I want to do, it's inside of me. It's what make me live from day to day. So how can I stop that? But, uh, you know, who knows how long that will be? And I-I don't know what is going to happen here in the future, you know. Who knows what will happen next? I don't see any big changes in the horizon. What I see is that the Asian Americans are helping themselves. They are elevating the whole level by producing their own movies and getting nominated for an Academy Award. They are doing very good roles. And every time they get a chance, like John Cho and Daniel Day Kim and Lucy Liu and Ming-Na Wen, Sandra Oh, Awkwafina, you know, they're doing their thing! And if that keeps up in another 10 years, when I'm in the grave, I'll just say, “well, they-- look at there. It's happening.” [laughs]
Max: Do you wish that you had come along later?
James: Well, what's the use of wishing? I came when the time called for it, and in a sense, I'm very happy to have been so-called the pioneer of all this. If I didn't start off doing something there wouldn't have been those protests and those drama classes that I started and the community at large wouldn't really care. You know, I did as much as I could by telling the actors to do something and telling the industry to do something. That's all I can do, right? I'm only a man, a person, Asian-American by chance. And here I am. I’m-I'm working constantly.
Max: What's pushing you to do that? What's pushing you to keep working constantly?
James: Something tells me there is another movie on the horizon. So I just look to that movie and I keep going that path toward that movie and it keeps coming and I keep doing it. Um... you might say I'll die with my boots on, but, you know, I don't feel like quitting. Whatever it is that drives me to be an actor is still there. It's been the same drive that has started in 68 years ago. It's still going. So why should I stop it? Is there some reason I should stop?
Max: [laughs] I don't have any reason.
James: James Hong doesn't have a reason. He-he loves it, you know. I love thinking about things. I love thinking about plots and and in a sense, what could have been done with that role and that particular movie, you know?
Max: You love the work.
James: Yeah, you-you just love the work, that's all that mean. What more can you ask in life? You love your work. You're made to do something on this earth and you're doing it.
Max: We've talked a lot about legacy in this career of yours and there was a campaign to get you a star on the Walk of Fame. Daniel Day Kim led this campaign online and raised a bunch of money. What does that star mean to you?
James: I would love to get a star on the Walk of Fame, obviously. What more can you ask of an actor to do than what I have done? You know, I-I gave it all my-my all. I've collected 600 credits. What else do you want me to do to qualify [laughs]? I have no idea [yeah]. But then I think according to the Junior Chamber of Commerce, there's a whole list of qualifications. I think they said, “well, there's you know, there's about another 50 other actors with big names who want to get on that star, in a sense, why should we give James Hong that star? You know, he hasn't done any big, huge leading roles. Why should we give him a star?” And so maybe that's the same reason, among the two thousand or more stars on the walk, there is only about like 12 Asian Americans. We're still in the silent and invisible minorities in Hollywood.
Max: Basically, what they're saying is you can't have this star because to get this star, you need to play the roles that we never let you play.
James: That's right and they don't give it to you anyway. So what can you do?
Max: Do you still hope you'll get one of those roles?
James: I stopped hoping actually in a way, just to keep doing what I'm doing. And if it comes, it comes, you know?
Max: When did you stop hoping?
James: Hm, I guess may maybe it was in the middle of 2020 here when there was a huge lull in show business. You wonder, well, should you keep going or should you do something else, you know? Um, but...I'm not about to give up.
[MUSIC STARTS]
CREDITS
Max: 70 Over 70 is a production of Pineapple Street Studios, and it’s produced by Jess Hackel.
Our associate producer is Janelle Anderson. Our editors are Maddy Sprung-Keyser and Joel Lovell. Research and additional reporting by Charley Locke.
Our mixer is Elliott Adler and Jenna Weiss-Berman and I are the executive producers.
Our theme song is Like a Dream by Francis and the Lights. And the music you’re listening to right now is by Arthur Russell, who would’ve been 70 this year. Original music by Terence Bernardo. Additional music by Noble Kids, and music licensing by Dan Knishkowy.
Our cover art is by Maira Kalman, who’s 72. And our episode art is by Lynn Staley. She’s 73 and she’s also my mom.
Thank you Liliana Lusia Weisbek and thank you, James Hong.
I’m Max Linsky. Thanks for listening.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]