Carolyn Doelling tells the story of how she rebooted herself as a fashion model at age 74. Then Max talks with Diana Nyad about her epic, record-breaking swim from Cuba to Key West at age 64, how her relationship to her body has changed since then, and how she continues to reckon with the physical and emotional process of aging.
Know someone who should be on 70 Over 70? We’re looking for all types of stories and people to feature at the top of the show. To nominate yourself or someone else, email 70over70@pineapple.fm or call 302-659-7070 and tell us your name, age, where you’re from and what you want to talk about.
transcription
[PRE-ROLL]
Jess Hackel: Hey, I’m Jess. I’m one of the producers of 70 Over 70 and before we get started I just wanted to give everyone a heads up. This episode contains discussions of sexual assault. Please take care while listening.
[OPENING MONTAGE]
Madeleine Albright: I know this program is 70 Over 70, but I really wish I were younger. I wish I was 70 … but, I am ready!
[THEME MUSIC STARTS]
William: I’m 72 years old.
Paula: I’m 75, miraculously enough.
Sandy: I am 83 years old.
Betty: I am 88 years old.
James: You know, I’m here at 92.
Lucia: I’ll be 94 in May.
Donalda: I’m 101 years old.
Carolyn Doelling: My name is Carolyn Doelling, I'm 74 years old, and I'm currently bicoastal between California and New York.
[THEME MUSIC FADES OUT]
Carolyn: So at age 70, I retired from a job in philanthropy and very soon after I realized that actually calling it retirement was a bit detrimental because I knew that people had lower expectations of me...
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Carolyn: I was starting to feel invisible and I noticed other women of about my age group. Just looking in their eyes, it felt like they had completely given up. And it corresponds to what people are wearing, which are dull gray, khaki, or black--lots and lots of black. So I wanted to do something about that.
So one of the very simple things that I did was just to add more color to my wardrobe. Like an orange shirt or hot pink slacks. It sounds like a very simple thing, but it actually had a huge impact and just about the same time, um, I went to a, um, boutique called McMullen in downtown Oakland. The owner, she was videotaping people asking, you know, what your goals were. And what my comment was, uh, was, you know, I'm encouraging more women my age to flaunt their style and be aware of that self-expression. A couple of weeks later, I got an email from her asking if I would like to wear some of the clothing in her boutique for her e-commerce.
[MUSIC CONTINUES]
Carolyn: Well, I had never in my life modeled before. I was always shy, never like the way that I looked and so I was always asking people not to take pictures or high fashion was always for someone else and just what you saw, you know, on the magazine racks.
But I showed up on set and just the clothing by some really, well, top notch designers like Tibi, Rachel Comey, and when they saw the photos, they in turn started to include me in their social media. And then just things started to snowball from there. Now I've done skin care, I've done shoes, I've done London Fashion week, and I’m very pleased to say that this year I will be walking runway for a very famous designer in New York Fashion week.
So now at age 74, I’ve rebooted myself as a fashion model.
[MUSIC ENDS]
Carolyn: So when I walked down the runway, I noticed some surprised looks when I first go out because, you know, I have grey natural afro hair, I’m 5 foot 4, I’m a size 4...so that really kind bucks the whole understanding of what a model should look like, which is really amazing because... models should represent real life. And not long ago I was reading the science magazine and I came across this line that has really stuck with me and that line was, “A model, by definition, should be a representation of the real thing.” And the real thing are the people like me.
[THEME MUSIC STARTS]
Carolyn: You know, I’m walking to represent a different type of individual than the audience expects. And they love it. They love it!
Max Linsky: That was Carolyn Doelling, and from Pineapple Street Studios, this is 70 Over 70, a show about making the most of the time we have left. I'm Max Linsky.
[THEME MUSIC CONTINUES]
Max: My guest this week is Diana Nyad.
Diana is many things: she’s an athlete, she’s a journalist, a public speaker, but Diana is probably best known for becoming the first person to swim – without a safety net – from Cuba to Key West.
[THEME MUSIC FADES OUT]
Max: She first tried the swim when she was in her 20s, but she didn’t actually complete it until she was 64.
And I just want you to picture this for a second. It’s dark. It’s brutally windy. Diana's been swimming for more than 24 hours and she’s 50 something miles from shore in either direction. She's throwing up constantly because she keeps swallowing seawater. And she's getting stung by box jellyfish, which are like regular jellyfish, except they’re huge and they can kill you.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Max: And somehow, in that moment, Diana figured out how to keep going.
I was curious about how she found the strength to finish that swim. And I wanted to know what happened when she hit the shore. How does your relationship to your body change after you’ve pushed it to the absolute extreme?
Diana Nyad is 72 years old.
INTERVIEW
Max: Hey, Diana, thank you, uh, thank you for doing this.
Diana: It's my pleasure, Max. You know, you're going to supposedly learn something for me, but with you almost turning 40, it's hard for me to have respect for you at that age [I understand] but um, I'm going to listen over the next hour and-and develop some respect for a 40 year old.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Max: Ah, listen, the chances of you learning anything from me are very, very low. But I feel like I should- I should let you in on a secret, which is that when we started thinking about this show, you have always been this person that I felt like I had to talk to. And, um, I don't know, it's just really thrilling to have you on the show. I'm really glad that you’re here.
Diana: Thank you. Thank you. I'm honored.
Max: When you did that swim from Cuba to Key West, so much of it was about doing the swim, but it also felt like doing it at that age was important to you. And-and I guess if we could start, I'm interested in what doing that swim in your 60s has meant and what your relationship between your swimming and your age is.
Diana: You know, the truth of it is it wasn't so much about being in my 60s then and-and going back to this sport that I used to be, you know, one of the best in the world at when you should be in your 20s. It was more a-an arc of a life story that started with very literally at-at double digits when I was 10 years old. I was already very, very worried about and engaged with the shortness of our lives. For some reason, you know, most kids who are 10 can't even imagine their 11th birthday [Max laughs] It's so far away [right]. But I had a fixation when I was young, you know, really young, still a kid on how if you waste your time, you never, ever get to do this day over again. So I want to do this day to the most powerful, most meaningful way I can do it. Every single day. Well, I-I-I did live that way and I, you know, sort of that conviction sort of drove me through everything I did and then, you know, I can't really analyze it, you know, too deeply, but, you know, it's easy to get complacent. In my 30s, I was in a wonderful marriage with a woman. But, um, boy, we were having a ball and,you know, just life seemed grand. And I-I thought this will never end. I took it for granted. But the truth is that swim was an emblem of I need to. I need to get back to that living life so I can't do it at fingernail better every day. And especially when that last day comes, I want to be able to look back and say, I didn't succeed by any means at everything I tried. But I can tell myself one thing every single day, I just couldn't have put any more of myself into it. And that swim reawakened all that 10 year old pressure of life's going by.
Max: Well, I can-I can feel the, uh, energy from that swim still, like, coming through you! It's uh, there's like 15 things you just said that I want to follow up on, but, um, I think the one that I'm going to start with is the one that you said you were sure you could analyze more, which is it does seem so rare to be a 10 year old kid and actually aware or conscious at all of how little time we have on Earth. What do you think happened that made you lose that thread in the middle of your life?
Diana: You know, I think it's easy when, um, when-when-when things are comfortable, you know, it's easy to get complacent.
Max: You were like a commentator then. You were making a bunch of money for a wide world of sports.
Diana: So, yes, but the truth is that I just got sort of, like I said, taking it all for granted. Oh, yeah. I got another first class trip to London. Let me get on the plane and stay in a beautiful hotel suite and call my partner back in New York and, you know, have some love making on the phone. And I'm going to eat an incredible dinner. And I just, um, I just got away from that what is the meaning of my life? What's the meaning of life in general? And I think that toward the end of my, um, 50s, I started to feel the malaise. I started to feel like I'm a spectator.
Max: Were you bored?
Diana: I've never been bored a whole day in my life. I've never been bored a minute of my life.
Max: And then what happened? What got you to... sort of wake up?
Diana: It happened over a decade, it wasn't like one transcendent moment, but I lost that marriage that I'm referring to and, uh, wasn't the best partner that-that I wish I could click my fingers and go back to being today. Um, my mom did die and, you know, look, I'm turning 60. She's 82. It's all could it possibly be? I mean, I'm in this incredible shape and I'm probably going to go to 100 strong and fit, but there is genetics. Maybe I'm going to die at 82, too. Are you kidding me? I got 22 years left and I'm just gonna kind of...kind of skating around and not going anywhere with purpose. So it was--it was gathering by the time I turned 60, I thought, I'm-I'm ready. I'm ready to bust out, give up all the money of the career, give it up.
Max: Was there anything scary about that moment?
Diana: No, I-I was so excited. And when I started to train for the Cuba swim, I sat down with the five people closest to me in my life and I said, “I want to I want to challenge myself to do something that's possibly probably impossible. And I'm going to come alive doing it. And I want you guys to do with me and you know what, when we reach that shore it could be that you five will be the only people who are there, the only people who know about it,”
Also, let's say that there was a history of me and Cuba and lots of people who grew up in southern Florida and saw that forbidden island right off our shores and grew up with Cuban friends who could never go back there. So there was a mystique to that crossing that meant a lot. When I got a chance to go into the Oval Office with President Obama after that swim, the first thing he said to me was, this is the first gesture. You're leaving that shore, Havana. And shortly thereafter and I said shortly thereafter, he said, I know. But in the big scheme of things, shortly thereafter, touching the other shore, that was that was the the ultimate gesture in showing us Cubans and Americans that we can. We can-we can heal these wounds. We can-we can go shore to shore again together. So, you know, I didn't have any hesitancy, though. I knew in my heart and my soul that this is-- I needed a challenge that big. And I didn't care about the failure. I had the courage to fail.
Max: That makes a lot of sense to me. It's funny, you know. I know-I know that you're saying that you didn't know whether it just be those five people on the beach or who would really care. Um, and that's really just about because it was coming from within you, but there's still something funny about like I didn't know if anyone would care. Turns out like, um, Obama cared.
Diana: Obama cared.
Max: [laughs] Yeah, well, there's this quote that I know has been trailing you around your whole life. Uh, you said it to Jane Pauley on the Today Show years and years ago. And you said, the most difficult thing I know mentally or physically is swimming these great bodies of water. But when I reach the destination, I experience a moment of immortality. And that feeling of immortality... is-is that part of what you have been chasing?
Diana: No, I don't think so, and I'll tell you the absolute truth, Max, is that I don't know how old I was when I was talking to Jane Pauley, but those are words I would never use today. You know, I don't believe in-in the feeling of immortality. I don't know what that is because first of all, we all die. I'm very aware of that. I'm an atheist and I don't even have hopes of going to heaven. But I think what I-what I did feel in finally making it from Cuba to Florida at age 64, and that was a profound sense of showing myself and showing the world at large--because those weren't swimming fans and sports fans who were following me. They were watching a human being and a team who refused to give up. I gave a speech to my team for all five attempts of Cuba and I said, it won't be me who lets you down. If a shark comes around and and threatens my life, we have to give it up. If the box jellyfish threatens my life, which it did, and we have to give it up. If a 60 mile an hour storm comes in and we're blown far off course, if Mother Nature, you know, doesn't allow us cross. Fair enough. But I will not stop my team. I will not stop and say to you, I can't. I'm too tired, I'm hurting. I can't do it anymore because I prepared to make sure that I can look back and say there was nothing more I could do. And so that's the feeling I had. And I think immortality was probably a-a young word. A young version of trying to say that back then.
Max: I think part of the reason it-it caught me is because it brought up these kind of questions of time to me. Like, how long were you in the water on your successsful one from Cuba to Key West?
Diana: That was 52 hours, 54 minutes and 18 seconds. And I'll tell you, anybody can do 52 hours, 54 minutes. But it’s that last 18 seconds. [Max laughs] that's what's going to get you.
Max: Well, do you think that you see time differently than most people?
Diana: I-I just think the definition of what's what's a valuable way to spend my time has changed and it was more ego driven. You know, I used to be the type that hung up in the bathroom across a clothesline, um, vocabulary words in different languages, because I couldn't-I couldn't imagine standing there and just brushing my teeth for a minute and a half or two minutes without doing something, you know [Max laughs]? So I studied these vocabulary words. I'm not like that anymore. I could brush my teeth and be, you know, looking down on my dog or, you know, whatever. So my-my definition of-of the value of how to spend one's time has changed. But the actual value of time is-it remains at that pressing--sort of it's going by like lightning. And you don't know this yet because you're so young, but as you get older decade by decade, you know, you think that the clock ticks at the same tempo and like Charlie Chaplin tried to hold it back from going around. No, it actually speeds up as you get older. It speeds up exponentially every month, every day, every hour is like, wow, how can I--how can I make the most of this? How can I slow this down?
Max: How do you not get overwhelmed by that feeling, it feels to me like what you're basically saying is like since you were a kid, you have been intimately in touch with time and how little of it we have. How do you not just like end up in the fetal position, totally overwhelmed by that idea? Like, how do you take that and find what feels to me like this kind of, like, relentless motivation that you have?
Diana: Yeah, well, I think it circles back each time to what effort have you put in. And, you know, I don't want people to think-- I can be silly, you know, it can be with friends on a beach, you know, just tossing the ball around with our dogs and laughing and, you know, looking up at the stars. And so there's nothing ego driven or success driven. But being with my friends and being whimsical and being silly is part of what I value in life. So I think the point is, did you waste your time? You know, I just and I'm not being judgmental, I swear. But I'm just not the type who could sit on the couch for six, seven, eight hours and sort of blindly half awake, half asleep just stare at the television. I'm a--I'm a pretty healthy either, but let's say occasionally I sit down and eat a pizza. I don't want to, you know, just-just unconsciously eat piece after piece while I'm doing other things that look and say, “oh, my God, I forgot to taste the pizza. I forgot I forgot to say, wow, the marinara sauce was incredible. Every bite of worth it. I don't want to look at the bottom and say I forgot to pay attention. I want to be engaged.” You know what you're making me think that's the value that I value the most is engagement. And that's that's what I admire most. Whether it's a jigsaw puzzle or this conversation with you, I want to be full-tilt engaged.
Max: Part of what you're talking about is being present, right, that's like maybe another word for engaged?
Diana: There you go.
Max: Is that hard for you?
Diana: No, I'm in it. I'm in it. But I wasn't for those years of my 30s [right], 40s and 50s, I'd say I was kind of half there. And that was more like half the time when I had to be, when I was working and had to show up at the microphone in front of me [right]. A lot of the time I was just kind of-kind of floating around and having a good time.
Max: Do you regret those decades of your life?
Diana: Yeah, I don't want to have any more regrets. You know, I-I was sexually molested as a teenager by my coach. And for so many years, like a lot of sexual abuse victims, I beat myself up with the regrets of not throwing that guy up against a wall, not going to the police, my mother, the principal of the school--telling them what was happening to me. I kept quiet. I was frozen. To this day, I-I can admit that to this day as happy and as confident as I seem, I’ve got some chinks in the armor because of that sexual abuse that brings up all kinds of insecurities. So I-I used to regret not having done something about it in real time, um, but I've let go of that. I've forgiven myself because of the era it was, the age I was. I just couldn't do anything about it at that time. But I do regret those years 30 to 60. You know, I was older then. I was capable of being present.
Max: There was so much there, Diana. I’m just trying to think about what I want to ask you next. Insecurity was one of things I was about to ask you before you brought up that history with your coach. What's your relationship with doubt at this point in your life?
Diana: You know, Max, I can tell you that, um, I've done a lot of interviews through the years, and so many people start off and they say, well, you know, you're this person who's always believed in herself and you go out and grab the tiger by the tail and, you know, boy, it must be great to be always your whole life, be so confident and so sure of yourself. And I said, well, wait... where did you get all that? You know, because I'm not riddled with doubts, but-but I've got some of that weaving in. I do. You know, there are doubts that creep in and then it's up to me, it's up to that engaged mind and that will to say you might fail. Don't be afraid. You failed before, but you will have doubts if you sit back and let those insecurities and doubts, you know, enshroud you.
Max: What-what doubts do you have now, Dana?
Diana: I have other dreams and with-with a realism of time passing, will-will I get there? Will I get to do them? Um, I can't pretend that I even though I feel very fit and agile and, you know, honestly, I can feel I'm in the prime of my life, um, but let's face it, in 10 years, will I sit down and talk with you and still say I wake every every day feeling like a million bucks? Maybe, you know, maybe I'll-I’ll be one of the few who keeps going that strong at 91 as well. But let's face it, the chances are we're heading toward a decline so the body and the mind are going to unravel in certain ways. And I'm not 39. And I'm not 49, I'm not 59, I'm not even 69 anymore, so I get worried that-that feeling of do what you need to do every day is even more imperative now. I kind of run around if I have to go out to the garage to get something, I don't just saunter along.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Diana: I kind of do a speed walk out there and a speed walk back [both laugh]!
Max: No-no fucking around. You got to get back.
Diana: No fucking around, Max [both laugh]!
[[MIDROLL]]
[MUSIC FADE IN]
Max: When you were talking about how the idea of time speeds up exponentially as you get older, maybe just walking to the garage, but like, when do you feel that speeding up?
[MUSIC FADE OUT]
Diana: You know, I think that it's a-it's a pervasive feeling, Max. It’s like when I get up, I don't need an alarm. I get up around 3:45 to 4:30 A.M. I want to be up before the sun, I want to see the first-first shading of light in the morning and not miss it. I don't want to miss anything and I feel it all day. I'm going over to play a tennis match and I'm so engrossed with the energy drink I'm drinking on the way over. I'm thinking about my serve. Am I finally going to get that-that wrist snap at the top of the serve? And when I get there, I play as if I'm at Wimbledon and believe me, it's nothing like Wimbledon [Max laughs], um, but all day long I'm imbued with this feeling of that-- oh, my God, that was a-that was a worthwhile hour. So I'm-I'm more engaged and more aware than I--present your word--than I've ever been in my life.
Max: I'm not--I'm really not trying to make light of the way you live your life, what you just described sounds completely exhausting to me [Diana laughs]. Totally, totally exhausting.
Diana: You know, there are people and my mother was really good at saying it. She said, “You are-you are so exhausting to be around.” Um, so I take that as a compliment, but you can imagine on my end, yeah, I put a lot of energy out, but look, clearly what I get from it. You know, I'm high. I'm on a high.
Max: Yeah, you do seem kind of high [Diana laughs]. There's a connection between those two things that you were just saying, so I asked you what your doubts were and what I heard you saying was. I don't know how much longer I will be in control. I don't know how much longer I'll be able to live my life in the way that I want to live it. Does that sound right?
Diana: It does.
Max: And then there's this other piece of it, which is you feel this--the time speeding up and it just gives you energy to do everything and your energy drink is a celestial experience, you know. I think the thing that I'm wondering about is there something negative or scary in there? You know what I mean? This idea that you're going to lose control, that the clock is ending. I understand how it fuels you to live your life the way you want to, but is there any way in which it stops you or hold you back or just scares you?
Diana: Well, I wasn't necessarily going to share this, but I will tell you that on November 9th, 2020, after waking up every day, the way I described it to you, feeling like a million bucks, I woke up with extreme 10 level pain in both shoulders, both groins and the neck. It took me 11 or 12 minutes, literally, to get out of bed. [Holy shit.] I thought do I have ALS? Do I have M.S.? Is this lupus. But how could I have gone to bed last night a hundred percent and wake up with-with something I just can't understand. So we took three weeks, but I was diagnosed with a fairly rare thing called polymyalgia rheumatica. And I'm doing a lot better now. I'm back to playing tennis, but this is my first little hint that I am...I'm only human. I-if I do live to 90 or 100, I'm going to go through decline. It's been hard for me to learn. I used to think my will can overcome anything but this little polymyalgia rheumatica, um, has sort of taught me-taught me to say, I'm going to see that I'm going to go through things. I'm going to go through some degeneration of body and/or mind, and I better just get some grace with it.
Max: Sounds like you've done a lot of work to process it in a- in a classic Diana fashion. Like, uh, you just attacked the thing. But tell me a little bit more about what those 11 or 12 minutes were like when you couldn't get out of bed.
Diana: I was scared, I called Bonnie. Bonnie Stoll, by the way, is my best friend for 40 years now and I used to be her trainer. And then many years later in my 60s, she became my trainer. But she came over and by the time she came over, I was standing up, barely walking. And I-I-I catastrophized. I went to the point like, this is never going to get better. This is the way I'm going to live from now on. This is life for me now. I went from being bad ass to debilitated...overnight.
Max: When you say you catastrophized, do-does that mean panicked?
Diana: Yeah, I, you know, I was in a bit of a panic and I will say that that that's one negative trait I've had. You know, you could people think of, oh, you're so positive. You think you can do everything. No, I worry about everything before it happens. Um, but Bonnie's always saying to me it's good to be prepared, but don't get stuck on what if this happens and what if that happens? And what if I lose and what have I, you know, I don't make it...just-just stay calm and realize that that might be one of the outcomes. You're losing, or you're not making it, or you're failing and-and you'll deal with that, but don't sit in a place of what if..oh, my God. That's probably what's going to happen.
Max: Right. There's something about the way you're describing it, right. Searing pain, unable to move. That feels so reminiscent of your worst moments in the water.
Diana: No.
Max: Well, from the outside, right, being stung by those box jellyfish or just being unable to move, vomiting your body, giving out when-when you just told me that story, all I was thinking about was these descriptions of you on these epic swims. But did it not feel that way to you? Did you panic in the water?
Diana: No. Maybe during the box jellyfish, I thought, am I going to die here? Is it because I was really having trouble breathing. The whole professional medical team, University of Miami E.R. doctors were having trouble reviving me. Um, we weren't sure. And many people have died being stung. It's called the Irukandji syndrome [Right]. But honestly, I never actually panicked. I let the team take over and as soon as they revived me, I was ready to get back in the water. Even with the box jellyfish there, I think there's a resolve when-when people are set on, you know, an astronaut going into that capsule and going out of space as much as their family might say, it's not worth it. It's not worth your dying, um, that astronaut is not going to panic. They believe in all the intelligent protocols and the preparation that's put together. And so I was never in a state of panic out in the ocean.
Max: I guess I'm just trying to poke my finger at, like, what was different on November 9th? You know, and when you're in the ocean and getting stung by these prehistoric creatures, you'd chosen to be there and on some level you are in control, but when you woke up on November 9th, there was no choice and no control.
Diana: Actually, I had trained hundreds and hundreds of hours off the Key West Coast and off the Cuban coast and never been stung by box jellyfish. So um, you know, the box jellyfish was was-was unknown, but I had this state of resolve, whereas this polymyalgia rheumatica I mean, I didn't have a-- just out of a moment of a symptom to sort of get me, you know, ready for hey something-something weird happening.
Max: Comes out of nowhere.
Diana: Yeah and you know, I wasn't saying to myself, oh, this is nothing. You know, you don't don't worry about it. Get up. You'll make a couple of phone calls. I was like, this is going to get worse and I probably won't live another 24 hours. That's-that's where I was that morning.
Max: Right. And then you find out it's not Lou Gehrig's disease. You're not paralyzed. It's treatable. And yet, you know, like, who knows where you'll be at 81, 91. Who knows when the next time you wake up in the morning with some-something hurting in a way it never has before. And I wonder whether you feel now ready for those moments or whether you're scared of not being able to control, not knowing, physically, what's coming for you?
Diana: I don't think it's a matter of being scared, I think it's a matter of getting real. You know, there's very little physically I won't do out in the ocean or on a bike or-or running or whatever it is. But I have to forget about the cosmetics. Uh, sometimes I'm just shocked to look at photos and I, I see my breasts are like five inches lower than I think they are when I walk around. But if things happen, if things happen beyond your control that your will are not going to overturn, then it's time to get real. Can-can I come up to this? Can I get over this or is this not going to be gotten over and I got to live with it. So I wasn't sure in those first three weeks after November 9th. And I was thinking, I certainly can't swim. No way I could bring the shoulder over this way. But I was starting to not be angry about it. Even in the throes of those three weeks of pain, I wasn't saying I don't want this. Take this back. I'm going to overcome it. I'm going to get down and make myself do push ups. I was getting real with it. Like, find out what it is, deal with it. You know, you're-you're-you're going to be OK no matter what it is. But I think all of us have to use our will when we can when we can push, push, push and get real, when we're going to have to... we're going to have to settle. And that's a hard word for me to use. But I think all of us come to that in some areas of our lives.
Max: Yeah. You know, I watched the documentary The Other Shore, and you said that you hope to have enough dignity and maturity to recognize when enough is enough. And, um, in a way, I feel like that quote touches on a lot of what we've talked about today, but I wonder how you think you'll know when you've hit that point and how-how you'll know when to let go. Do you think you'll be able to do that?
Diana: Yeah, I do. You know, because I think that, you know, we evolve slowly. So, I didn't come to this point today, you know, overnight. I didn't go from 21 to 71 overnight. You know, I-I couldn't have said at age 21 yeah if things slow down or, you know, I have some amount of debilitation or if I just don't get lucky in certain ways, I'll be able to accept it. I wasn't in that place. And I've learned-I've learned since then that-that, you know, that the universe is bigger than we are and-and bad luck does factor into everything we do and as well as good luck. So I think that, you know, I'm at a space now in life that if something absolutely beyond my control, you know, happens if my house burned down tomorrow and I lost all the possessions in it, um you know, I can't say, whereas I might have at age 21, that didn't happen and I'm going to build it back tomorrow and I'm going to go in the ashes and find everything that's important. I would just say, take a deep breath. This is reality. Let's-let's-let's get with it. You know, heroism and and tremendous deep resilience aren't born because you want those to be your characteristics. They're born because of unexpected events. And how are you going to react to them? So, um, I think that I'm-I'm going to be able to, you know, handle anything that comes my way in life. But I'm not saying I'm going to, you know, go down gently if it doesn't go the way I want it to go.
Max: And you wonder why people get on the phone with you and ask you about how you have so much confidence.
Diana: Yeah, yeah. But, you know, I've-I’ve opened up to you and shown lots of, um, you know, areas where you could enter into doubt. But, you know, it's my choice.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Diana: This life is--the way I live it is my choice. And, uh, I can admit to doubts and insecurities, but I'm not going to let them, you know, ruin my life or reign over my life.
CREDITS
Max: 70 Over 70 is a production of Pineapple Street Studios, and it’s produced by Jess Hackel.
Our associate producer is Janelle Anderson. Our editors are Maddy Sprung-Keyser and Joel Lovell. Research and additional reporting by Charley Locke.
Our mixer is Davy Sumner and Jenna Weiss-Berman and I are the executive producers.
Our theme song is Like a Dream by Francis and the Lights and the music you’re listening to now is by Mavis Staples, who’s 82. Original music by Terence Bernardo. Additional music by Noble Kids, and music licensing by Dan Knishkowy.
Our cover art is by Maira Kalman, who’s 72 and our episode art is by Lynn Staley. She’s 73, and she’s also my mom.
Thank you, Carolyn Doelling, and thank you, Diana Nyad.
I'm Max Linsky. Thanks for listening.