Arlene Heyman reads an excerpt from her short story collection Scary Old Sex. Then Max talks with Dr. Joycelyn Elders about her time as Surgeon General under Bill Clinton, what happened after she was forced to resign, why she will forever be known as “the condom queen,” and why older and younger generations should know how to have good, safe sex.
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To read more about Arlene Heyman’s work, check out Scary Old Sex in the New Yorker and The New York Times and her debut novel, Artifact.
Know someone who should be on 70 Over 70? We’re looking for all types of stories and people to feature at the top of the show. To nominate yourself or someone else, email 70over70@pineapple.fm or call 302-659-7070 and tell us your name, age, where you’re from and what you want to talk about.
transcription
[PRE-ROLL]
[OPENING MONTAGE]
Madeleine Albright: I know this program is 70 Over 70, but I really wish I were younger. I wish I was 70…but, I am ready!
[THEME MUSIC STARTS]
William: I’m 72 years old.
Paula: I’m 75, miraculously enough.
Sandy: I am 83 years old.
Betty: I am 88 years old.
James: You know, I’m here at 92.
Lucia: I’ll be 94 in May.
Donalda: I’m 101 years old.
Arlene Heyman: I am Arlene Heyman. I am 79 years old and I live in New York City.
[THEME MUSIC FADES OUT]
Arlene: I’m a psychiatrist psychoanalysis, I’m a fiction writer, and today I’m going to read as segment of a short story called “The Loves of Her Life”, which is from my collection, Scary Old Sex.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Arlene: Would you like to make love?” Stu called out to Marianne as she entered their apartment. She walked toward his office. It was mid-Saturday afternoon and Stu was still in his purple pajamas at the computer. He had a little wet mocha-colored stain under his lip and his wiry gray hair stood up thinly around his large bald spot. He looked at her shyly for a moment, then looked back at the computer screen.
[MUSIC ENDS]
Arlene: She knew how hard it was for her husband to ask for sex, even after three wives. Why was it so hard? The best Stu had come up with was fear of rejection. Fear of rejection? She didn’t understand—if you were out one day, you might be in the next. But he was reluctant even to ask for all dark meat from the Chirping Chicken take-out place. And also he tended to buy the first item a sales person showed him. His timidity annoyed her. He thought he was just an easygoing, nice guy. Cooperative. He didn’t make enough money, and what he made he was always giving to obscure political groups working for “social justice” or to one of his numerous importuning adult children—the major beneficiaries of his modest will. And he dressed badly, and called her superficial when she complained. Though lately he had let her go clothes shopping with him. Clothes delighted her.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Arlene: A tall, slender woman with prominent cheekbones, slanted blue eyes, and dramatic silver-white hair, Marianne still attracted admiration—she was proud of being, hands down, the best-looking of his wives.
[MUSIC CONTINUES]
Arlene: Couldn’t he be even a little seductive, instead of asking for sex as if he were asking for a game of tennis? She tried to do it at least once a week. It didn’t sound like much: she had made love three or four times a week with her first husband, who’d been younger than she, and who had died eleven years ago. But now she had acid reflux, and so had to stay upright for two or three hours after a meal or else suffer burning pains in her chest. And she had to insert Vagifem, low-level estrogen tablets, in her vagina twice a week so her tissues didn’t thin out. He used Viagra half an hour before sex, and because he tended to come too soon if they weren’t making love often, and once a week wasn’t often, he also took a dose of clomipramine, an antidepressant, that had as a side effect retarded ejaculation. The Viagra made him feel flushed for the rest of the day and the clomipramine made him spacey. So they usually had sex toward evening, if not at night.
[MUSIC ENDS]
Arlene: While Stu wanted to last after she had come, it was difficult. If she told him, as he was thrusting after her orgasm, “God, this feels good,” he immediately came. If she said nothing, merely looked beatific, he also came. So now, ironically, she suppressed any noises she might have made and often lied to him that she hadn’t come in order to keep him at it. And, if he got notice that she wanted to make love, he masturbated ten hours before, because then he definitely lasted longer. In short, for them, making love was like running a war: plans had to be drawn up, equipment in tiptop condition, troops deployed and coordinated meticulously, there was no room for maverick actions lest the country end up defeated and at each other’s throats . . . .
[THEME MUSIC FADES IN]
Arlene: So she called to him now, “Yes, dear, that would be very nice, making love.”
Max Linsky: That was Arlene Heyman, and from Pineapple Street Studios, this is 70 Over 70, a show about making the most of the time we have left. I'm Max Linsky.
[MUSIC CONTINUES]
Max: My guest this week is Dr. Joycelyn Elders.
Joycelyn grew up in rural Arkansas, the oldest of eight siblings. Her parents were both sharecroppers. And even though Joycelyn didn't go to her first doctor until she was 16, Joycelyn became a doctor herself, a pediatric endocrinologist. Yet she’s best known for a different job.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Max: In 1992, after several years running the Arkansas Department of Health, Joycelyn was named surgeon general by newly elected president, Bill Clinton.
As surgeon general, Joycelyn was advocating for things that today feel like commonplace positions in many parts of the country, but at the time were wildly controversial: legalizing marijuana, comprehensive sex education, healthcare as a human right.
She loved the job, but it didn’t last long. Just 14 months after she was sworn in, Joycelyn was at the UN World AIDS Day Conference when she was asked about masturbation. She told the audience that it was a basic part of human sexuality, and that perhaps we should educate kids about it.
The right took her quote and ran. The story became national news. SNL did a sketch making fun of her. And a few weeks later, Clinton forced her to resign.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Max: I wanted to talk to Joycelyn about what her relationship is to that moment almost 30 years later, whether she feels like that one comment has come to define her life, and if being forced to give up that job changed her somehow. And I also wanted to know if she’s still finding a way to have open, honest conversations about sex.
Dr. Joycelyn Elders is 88 years old.
INTERVIEW
Max: Joycelyn, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Joycelyn: It's a pleasure to be included.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Max: I want to start with your time as surgeon general. So the earliest days of you taking that job in 1992. What were your goals? What did you want to accomplish?
Joycelyn: When I think back to my taking the job as surgeon general….if I can back up for just a half a minute.
Max: Of course.
Joycelyn: You know, I wasn't really a professional public health person. I was a professor of pediatric endocrinology at a medical school. And then I took the job as health director for Arkansas. I found I loved it! I loved being in public health. I loved pediatrics. I loved being out there and I even loved arguing with the old politicians [Max laughs]. So, and so, when Bill Clinton asked me to be surgeon general I thought, this man must be crazy to think that I would give up one of the best jobs in the world, the best staff in the world--but then my mom said, you've just got to go up and help him. I thought, “oh, well... I'll go”
Max: [laughs] So you're telling me you did it for your mom, not for him?
Joycelyn: Well, probably, but and probably for me and a lot of things. But I wasn't out there dying to be the surgeon general.
Max: You know, it's interesting, I-I want to make sure that we talk about those early days of being surgeon general, but you've already mentioned how much you enjoyed arguing.
Joycelyn: Yes.
Max: When you were in Arkansas and running the Department of Health. And I've watched those clips that it-it really does seem like you're having a good time.
Joycelyn: I did! Everybody was feeling sorry for me and felt that the politicians were beating on me. But to me, it was fun.
Max: Why do you think it was fun?
Joycelyn: Well, first of all, I-I felt very strongly about what I was arguing about. You know, when I was arguing about adolescent sexual health, it was important to me. And I knew I wanted to make a difference for those bright young women like me in the Delta, because I remembered when I was there and had no hope. And I thought I was just out there fighting for them. And so it, to me, it was just really all about them.
Max: Wow, it-it’s so powerful to hear you say that and it makes me wonder, like, when you got to Washington, what you wanted to get done for those young women and for yourself?
Joycelyn: I wanted to have comprehensive health education in all schools starting in kindergarten and I went to Washington telling everybody this was what I wanted to get done. And I ran around all over the country talking to everybody about health care, about adolescent pregnancy, and I was called a condom queen-- I really was having a good time to tell you the truth. But I always felt that I knew what I was fighting for and fighting about. And to me, I felt that I was supposed to do what I was doing. And someone asked me one time--I was talking about my fighting about sexual health and adolescent health and all--and they're asking me about it. And I tell them, I said, “You know, the only person who could do this job was a poor black woman doctor who had lived this and who knew it” and I even told one of the senators, I said, “now you can't out black me” [Max laughs]. So you see, I was being beat on, I was having a hard time, I was suffering a lot, I was working from sun up till midnight every night, I was working very hard, flying all over the country talking to everybody that would listen to me.
Max: And you were clear about that was what you were supposed to be doing, like, you didn't have any doubts about where you should be?
Joycelyn: No, I didn't. I felt comfortable with that. I think my staff was a little bit concerned. I don't think I ever said anything that President Clinton didn't understand and know that I was going to do and say. I think other people may have thought so, but I-I really, I really felt that I was doing what he may have wanted me to do.
Max: You and Bill Clinton had worked together for a long time, like, he knew what he was signing up for.
Joycelyn: That's right and I told him. He was governor then. I said “Governor,” I said, “now, you know, what you're getting.” He said, “I know. I know.”
Max: Mhmm. I watched this clip of him when he was governor and he was talking about bringing you on and he said that he asked you to do something about teen pregnancy. And unlike a lot of people in government jobs, you took him seriously and actually did something.
Joycelyn: Yes [laughs]. Well, I thought he was serious and he gave me the privilege of-of having to do it and getting busy working on it, so I felt very strongly about it. And even, the person who owned condoms got involved. And we met one night in New York and he said, “Dr. Elders, you said you will be the condom queen and you'd wear the crown on your head,” he said, “but I want you to know,” he said “I'll help you and I'll be the condom king.” [Max laughs] We did a lot of good work. In fact, I was chairman of his board--we put together 14 of 15 of the top sexual health people in the country and we were together for 20 years.
Max: Right. You know, you had, um, a condom tree on your desk.
Joycelyn: Absolutely.
Max: On some level, you had to know that for the time that was going to be controversial.
Joycelyn: That didn't bother me that it was going to be controversial. I knew that of all the young women that I knew, that was out there getting pregnant and having babies, missing out on college-- you know, this was not what they were planning to do. You-you got to tell everybody But I was not about abortions. I was never about abortions. I was about preventing unplanned pregnancies. Let me tell you this little story about--since were on condoms. We'll get off condoms.
Max: Yeah.
Joycelyn: There was a minister's daughter who was eight years old who was going to a party, she was all dressed up. She was going as Dr. Elders. And she had a purse and said, “Daddy, I need a condom for my purse.” He said, “what do you mean?” She said, “I'm Dr. Elders. She says, never go out with anybody you like and don't have a condom in your purse.” [Max laughs] He stood in the middle of the floor. He says, “I told my wife,” he says “honey give me my hat and coat.” He said “I went out and got them”.
Max: I wish people could see how much you were smiling right now.
Joycelyn: Well [laughs].
Max: There were a lot of things that you were talking about as surgeon general, which for the time were kind of out there and now are, you know, pretty accepted liberal positions. Legalization of marijuana.
Joycelyn: Right.
Max: Sex education.
Joycelyn: Right.
Max: Talking about sex with young people.
Joycelyn: That's right. It's tabletalk now! We can talk about it over dinner table. Then we whispered. Our silence [right] was deafening!
Max: Right, all that stuff was whispered. And then you came along and said it with a full voice...
Joycelyn: Yes.
Max: On a very large stage. And, you know, excuse my language, but you got the shit beat out of you for it.
Joycelyn: Well, if you're going to make change, you can't change things and keep doing everything the same.
Max: Hmm. And do you see a direct line between how it's table talk now and that work that you were doing in the early 90s? Do you take pride in it?
Joycelyn: Yes, I felt that probably the only person who could have really gone out and done that was a poor black woman doctor.
Max: That's the second time you've said that and, bear with me, but can you just explain why?
Joycelyn: Well, the reason why is, first of all, you know, if I had come from an upper class, a better family, I wouldn't have known what it was like to have parents who only had an eighth grade education. But let me tell you the one thing that parents fought very hard for they felt if you want to get out of a cotton patch, you've got to get something in your head. And I wouldn't have known what it was like to treat poor kids who really I knew wanted something better but couldn't do it. Maybe doing the best they could. And the people that I was talking, you know, I knew that.
Max: Yeah. I mean, you-you grew up in a three room...
Joycelyn: Shack.
Max: Shack is how you described it.
Joycelyn: Yes.
Max: You watched your little brother get taken by a mule 10 miles to have his appendix taken out.
Joycelyn: That's right. And even as a medical student not being able to eat in the same dining room as the white medical students.
Max: And all of that was present for you when you were in that job.
Joycelyn: Yes.
Max: That makes some sense to me, ‘cause you watch some of the speeches you gave and you're saying this stuff that today, again, is-is table talk and it's making people really uncomfortable.
Joycelyn: Well, during my confirmation, a senator who's very well informed from a southern area, whose dad was a doctor at all, and he says-he says “Dr. Elders, you're right. We know you’re right.” He says, “But if we go along with you, our people won't vote for us.” He said “and what I want you to know, though, if it comes down to the end, if you needed my vote to make it, you got it.”
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Joycelyn: What that told me is keep fighting.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
[[ MIDROLL ]]
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Max: How did you get comfortable talking about sex?
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Joycelyn: You've asked a very good question and a very hard question because nobody ever talked--I don't ever remember having the talk or the conversation, but, you know, growing up on a farm, of course, you see all of the sex among all of the animals going on so you understood that. And my parents were as they were never ultra conservative. They taught us to love everybody and to do our best.
Max: But they didn't talk to you about the-the birds and the bees?
Joycelyn: But they didn't know how. I learned more about the birds and the bees and I’ll always thank Kotex. There was a little booklet they put out that explained menstruation and about birds and the bees, you know, that kind of thing. I think I still have one. I brag about it, but they put it out when you bought boxes of Kotex. I don't know that they even make Kotex anymore. And just last week, I told Trojan we spent two years working on the Trojan Bible and what we needed to know and what boys needed to know and, you know, the facts and all. And I said, “we need to put all of that together in a little book and when boys turn 13 or 14 or whatever the magic age they were getting ready to go into puberty before that--and we need to send them a sample of all the condom, get it on their birthday.” I don't think they thought that was a very good idea, but I don't think they thought it was a bad idea, but, you know.
Max: Just so I'm clear, you're telling me that you're still, like, working with Trojan?
Joycelyn: Yes! I was chairman of the what we call TSHAC . It was Trojan’s Sexual Health Advisory Committee.
Max: Hm, so are they going to do it?
Joycelyn: No, I don't think they're going to do it. But I thought that that was the most valuable little book on sexual health that I had. See, we didn't have radio, we didn't have TV, we didn't have all the things y'all have.
Max: When you're in that, like, that room with Trojan or just generally when you're talking about sex now, at 87, how is it different?
Joycelyn: Probably in that, uh, I think everybody is more relaxed and nobody is flying up. You know, we talk about sex as pleasure. Then, you know, nobody could talk about sex as pleasure. But, you know, every sperm was not meant to be a baby.
Max: [laughs] Right.
Joycelyn: And I'll never forget, I was on a plane working on a speech and there was a group of pilots--they were flying to Sweden or someplace--and I said, “Oh, well 99 percent of sex is about pleasure.” And they said, “Oh, Dr. Elders, you need to add some more 9s to that. 99.999” [both laugh]. So but, you know, it got where it was easy as more and more people accepted it and talked about it. It was it--became easier and easier.
Max: Mm hmm.
Joycelyn: When we first had to talk about sex, it was talking about masturbation. And we was really trying to prevent AIDS. You have to remember, in 1992, I was really about trying to prevent HIV.
Max: Yeah.
Joycelyn: And at WHO at the World AIDS Conference, I was asked about how to prevent AIDS. And I said, well, let's talk about the ABCD of AIDS prevention. A is for abstinence, but we're sexual beings from the time we're born til the time we die. B is be faithful. I said, you know, a lot of people aren't faithful and a lot of people, you know. C use a latex condom and then, you know, people say, well, you know, condoms will break. Well, you know, they were able to show that you could blow up condoms and they used a balloon or a stick of baloney and it still wouldn't break. And D is do other things. And then they ask me, well, what did I mean by doing other things? Well, that was when we got into the talk about masturbation. A psychiatrist there at the conference asked me, you know, he gave a long talk, about masturbation. And I said one of the things we know, it's never caused anybody to go blind, never cause anybody to lose their mind and we always know you're having sex with somebody you love, self-love.
Max: Right, and so there's there's this moment at that conference
Joycelyn: At that conference…
Joycelyn Elders (ARCHIVAL): In regard to masturbation, I think that it is something that is a part of human sexuality and it is a part of something that perhaps should be taught. We’ve not even taught our children the very basics, and I feel that, uh, we have tried ignorance for a very long time and it’s time we try education.
Joycelyn: Hm, you know, I didn't think, I don't think most people at the conference even thought too much about it. You know, wasn't even a giggling moment, you know.
Max: Right.
Joycelyn: But on the way back, there was a reporter who went with me and he asked me, “Dr. Elders, don't you think people are going to be concerned about that?” And I said, “Well, 90 percent of men masturbate and we have probably 67, 80 percent of women masturbate and I said and the rest lie.”
Max: [laughs] But then it became a huge deal.
Joycelyn: It became a world deal.
Max: A world deal, and it led to your resignation.
Joycelyn: Asked for my resignation.
Max: How much does that moment after you'd been in the job for 14 months at that point--how much does that moment define your life?
Joycelyn: It probably defined my life a great deal. But, you know, it defined my life in a way that I don't mind it being defined to me. It was probably worth it because I was still able to go out and talk about sexuality and talk about sex, so I thought that Bill Clinton agreed with me. But I felt he was doing what he had to do for the rest of the country. He was worrying about all the other things. I was probably worrying about a part of the problem that he wasn't worried about.
Max: He was worried about the politics of it.
Joycelyn: Right and I wasn't a good politician. I never pretended I was a good politician now.
Max: Even though you were really good at fighting with politicians.
Joycelyn: I knew that they were about the politics and they and I felt that they were fighting about what they believed in. But I think they also felt that I was fighting about what I believed in too.
Max: Leon Panetta asked for your resignation.
Joycelyn: Yes.
Max: You called Clinton and said, I need to hear it from you.
Joycelyn:That's right.
Max: And he said, that's what I need.
Joycelyn: Yes.
Max: You hand in your resignation.
Joycelyn: Yes.
Max: What'd you do the next day?
Joycelyn: Well, the next day I probably start thinking about, you know, I told him that I need to stay there until the end of the year. And, um, not being rich, I had to get my job back. See I was so smart when I was real young--and I got dumber as I got older--but Bill Clinton had the board of trustees at the University of Arkansas. We signed a leave of absence from my job.
Max: Ah, so you could go back.
Joycelyn: And I could go back! It was up to eight years. And so I had to leave Washington, D.C. on New Year's Eve, so I could be in Arkansas to sign up to take my job the next day.
Max: And was it hard to leave?
Joycelyn: Oh, of course, I had, you know, not to say that I didn't have any pains, but I knew what I was coming back to, and so I felt that I'd done the right thing. My old mom, says always speak the truth. She said, the day you see the truth and cease to speak, is the day you begin to die. And everybody knows I'm going to live a long time.
Max: So your mom-your mom is there at the beginning of that job and told you to take it. And she was there for you at the end of it, too.
Joycelyn: Yeah. Oh, yes. She was there at the end too.
Max: And now, 30 years later, do you have regrets?
Joycelyn: No, no, I want everybody to know I have no regrets. I want them to know that I did the very best I knew how. And I was always trying to do the right thing in regard to gender, sexual health, HIV AIDS, and if I had it all to do over again, knowing that I would get fired, I would do it the same way. I did it right the first time.
Max: What a beautiful thing that is.
Joycelyn: I wanted to stay now. And I wanted to do more. And I wanted to get lots of things done. And I had a huge agenda. But if I wasn't the right person to get the job done, well, I had to come back and do the best I could wherever I was. I would be the first to admit maybe I wasn't looking at it right. But I was seeing a place where I was truly looking at it wrong at. I feel health care is a right. I was wanting to have comprehensive health education in schools from K-12. You know, I was really wanting to have school based clinics. I wanted have educate parents and I feel that if we've done a lot of that, we wouldn't be fighting some of the fights we're fighting right now.
Max: I mean, there must be some part of you that's got some real, like, I told you so energy.
Joycelyn: Oh, I don't think about that. Every time I think I think about I wonder how I could have gotten that done.
Max: Mm hmm.
Joycelyn: You know, even with vaccinations. You know, we're fighting about getting our country vaccinated. Well, you know, our country should have known about that. They should have better health education. One of our major health problems is nutrition and obesity. If we had comprehensive health education, we would've educated our children about obesity and we would have taught good nutrition. So, you know, there were just so many things we could have done in school, but we didn't do and I know everybody says, well, we had to be teaching, reading, writing, arithmetic, that's true. What good is reading, writing and arithmetic, if you’re not physically, emotionally, and psychologically fit.
Max: You had 14 months in that job.
Joycelyn: Yes.
Max: And from what you're telling me, it sounds like it was really fun. It was hard, but exciting. You felt clear in your purpose and it got taken away.
Joycelyn: Yes.
Max: And I feel like I've sort of asked a couple of different times, are you OK with that and you've said every time very clearly that you are.
Joycelyn: Yes.
Max: And I guess I just want to know, like, where that comes from and how do you not feel the regret that you so clearly don't feel. Like, how do you do that?
Joycelyn: I don't know the answer to that question. And my very best friend, Dr. Barbara Killgore, who-she's a minister, She told me I had the most personal God she'd ever heard of. But, you know, somehow, however it turns out, my God didn't want me to do that. He had something else for me to do and he wants me to do that. And so, obviously, he didn't want me to stay.
Max:Mm hmm.
Joycelyn: But maybe, you know, again, I also am well aware that a lot of it may be my compensation for me, and that's my survival mechanism. My God will take care of me aAnd I do feel like that. Deep down I don't I can't feel anything else. That doesn't say, I don't get sad or I don't get depressed or all of those things, but it also says that this was what my God meant for me.
Max: What does religion mean to you? Are you a religious person?
Joycelyn: I don't know if I'm a religious, very religious or Christian, but I feel very strongly about righteous religion, justice, and things of that sort. That-that's very important to me.
Max: But you don't--you don't think of yourself as a-as a religious person. Your form of religion is personal.
Joycelyn: Yeah, I go to church every Sunday and I believe in prayer. I don't believe in outside preaching prayer. But, you know, when I pray it's between me and God. And I feel that when I'm doing the right things, doing the right by people, trying to make things as best I know how, to me, that's my religion.
Max: Hm, that makes some sense to me.
Joycelyn: And being the oldest of eight children, being mother hen forever, I always felt I did what was right for and by them, and I'm so proud of all of them. They all did well and it's just wonderful looking back on them now.
Max: Right. You had to figure out how to survive.
Joycelyn: I had to figure out how to survive. And my God took care of me.
Max: And then you spent your life figuring out how to help a lot of other people survive.
Joycelyn: That’s right.
Max: So much of this conversation we've been having is about younger people.
Joycelyn: Yes, you have to remember, I was a pediatrician.
Max: Right. Right. You as a younger person, the young people you were around while you were practicing medicine, the young people you sort of took with you to Washington allowed you to fight that fight. What has working with younger people taught to you about getting older?
Joycelyn: Some of it has taught me about young people are very smart, bright and can do a lot of things and have a lot of energy, but they need some guidance. They need mentors. And, uh, and I feel that that's one of the things that I'm supposed to do now. I'm supposed to help guide them and assist them. And it's not just about those young people that eat at my table but about all of the young people that are out there. And what I'm still living for is to help as many young people to be the best human being they can.
Max: So I've talked to a bunch of people on the show so far, but I haven't really talked to anyone about sex.
Joycelyn: Okay.
Max: I was hoping that we could talk about sex a little bit.
Joycelyn: All right!
Max: What do people get wrong about older people and sex?
Joycelyn: Well, first of all, they start--children grow up they grew up thinking that the only time their parents had sex was when they-they were conceived, you know. And I think that as older people they think that older people don't enjoy sex anymore. I think that they do enjoy sex. It's just-it may be a little differently. It may not be the kinds of--these real high highs that they had when they was 18 and 20, but, uh, but they still, I think, enjoy the sexual relationships and what it means, you know. You know, holding hands, the kiss on the back of the neck, you know, the things that young people think-may think is a nothing, but, you know, that is really very meaningful. This is why I think we really need to really talk and think about sexual health. You know, we don't teach sexual health. We don't think about healthy sexuality. And we've not educated our women or our men. You know, we're not taught our men, you know, about sexual dysfunctions and what we can do about it, how we can handle it and make it better. And so they're ashamed to ask, we don't tell our doctors either.
Max: So that education, that sexual education that you were pushing for in Arkansas, that you were pushing for as surgeon general, it's not just for young people. It's like
Joycelyn: For lifetime.
Max: It's a lifetime.
Joycelyn: That's right.
Max: Why do you think that older people either don't talk about sex as much or aren't prepared to talk about sex as much? Does that have to do with the way that we see older bodies? Like what-what do you think that's about?
Joycelyn: Well, I think a part of that's about the fact we never taught them as young people to appreciate and enjoy their own sexuality. And then we don't think that we don't look at older at older bodies is as being beautiful, but we haven't really taught our old women and older men to really appreciate their bodies and appreciate their sexuality. But, you know, I think that there is a lot more to healthy sexuality than this picture that we carry around in-in our minds all the time.
Max: Do you appreciate your own sexuality at this stage of your life?
Joycelyn: I-I think so. You know, my husband's 89 and I'm 88. We've been married for 66 years. And, you know, he still is important to me, probably more important to me than he was when I married him...to me as a person.
Max: How so?
Joycelyn: When I first married him, I probably could have gotten along without him.
Max: Yeah, well, you guys got married two months after you met, right?
Joycelyn: That's right. Obviously, I was very attracted to him, but I still am.
Max: You still are?
Joycelyn: Yes. I'll keep him.
Max: What's your sex life now? What's it like with your husband?
Joycelyn: My sex life with my husband. It's probably not as exci-- you know, if want great big excitement, but he still the only man I ever want to be with and the only man I really feel comfortable holding hands and kisses on the back of the neck, but that doesn't say some of the other things don't happen to. But he still wants to recite poems to me.
Max: Sounds like quite the guy.
Joycelyn: He is, he really is still. That doesn't say I don't want to pinch his head off some time and tell god he died [Max laughs], but he's still a very sexually attractive man to me.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Joycelyn: May not be to every other woman in the street, but to me, he is.
CREDITS
Max: 70 Over 70 is a production of Pineapple Street Studios and it’s produced by Jess Hackel.
Our associate producer is Janelle Anderson. Our editors are Maddy Sprung-Keyser and Joel Lovell. Research and additional reporting by Charley Locke.
Our mixer is Elliott Adler, and Jenna Weiss-Berman and I are the executive producers.
The theme song is Like a Dream, by Francis and the Lights, and the music you’re listening to now is by Beverly Glenn Copeland who is 77 years old. Original music by Terence Bernardo. Additional music by Noble Kids, and music licensing by Dan Knishkowy.
Our cover art is by Maria Kalman, who’s 72 and our episode art is by Lynn Staley. She’s 73 and also my mom.
Thank you, Arlene Heyman. And thank you, Joycelyn Elders.
I'm Max Linsky. Thanks for listening.