Michelle Drappi and Father Joe Carey share the story of their unlikely friendship. Then Max talks with Congressman Barney Frank about how the world has changed since he started in politics and how, after a career dedicated to helping others, he has learned to accept help in his own life today.
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transcription
[PRE-ROLL]
[OPENING MONTAGE]
Madeleine Albright: I know this program is 70 Over 70, but I really wish I were younger. I wish I was 70… but, I am ready!
[THEME MUSIC STARTS]
William: I’m 72 years old.
Paula: I’m 75, miraculously enough.
Sandy: I am 83 years old.
Betty: I am 88 years old.
James: You know, I’m here at 92.
Lucia: I’ll be 94 in May.
Donalda: I’m 101 years old.
Michelle Drappi: My name is Michelle Drappi, I'm 28 years old, and I live in Tysons Corner, Virginia.
[THEME MUSIC FADES OUT]
Michelle: I know that I'm not 70, but I always say that my best friend from college is. How old were you, FJ, when we met?
FJ: 2013. I was about 71 or 72
Michelle: And I was--I was 19.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
FJ: My name is Father Joe Carey, I'm 81 years old, and I live at Notre Dame, Indiana in a dorm with 240 college women. So that’s my situation [laughs]. So when I was asked if I would live in a women's hall as a priest in residence, the women--I wanted to know them, to, uh, listen to them and just spend time with them. But I didn't want to invade their spaces, and so I had to get them to come to me.
[MUSIC CONTINUES]
FJ: At Notre Dame a tradition is something that you do three times, you know, and so one of the things I do is, um, on Tuesday nights have, uh, an event with 150 to about 250 students, you know, and they come and eat cookies in my dorm. We start baking on Tuesdays at 4. Baking, baking, baking [laughs]...
Michelle: And baking [both laugh].
FJ: We stop at 10.
Michelle: 10 is pens down. It used to be a free for all. It’d be like 200 women dashing up the stairs at 10:20, and we’d have 200, like, at least.
FJ: And this whole thing wraps up about midnight...and it's become something that, uh, students look forward to it and it’s kind of like the feeling of being safe and being able to relate to people and to feel, um, just the warmth of a community.
[MUSIC CONTINUES]
Michelle: So I transferred to Notre Dame the fall of my sophomore year and kinda kept to myself, but when I eventually met Father Joe [laughs], and I went up to bake, um, it was just immediately super welcoming. Even though I was quiet, probably my first couple of weeks going, he always took the time to ask me about me and ask how my day was and then would make connections, uh, between me and seniors that came in that he was like, well, you know, Michelle knows this or, you know, Michelle likes that to you guys should talk about it. So, I don’t know, I found a good friend in him.
[MUSIC CONTINUES]
Michelle: For me, being in FJ's life, it's just having this person that you know is always going to be there for you. He was the first person that, like, when I went through a rough breakup in college, like, he was who I went to talk to and when you know you have someone that's, you know, just they're there for you all the time. It really gives you a lot of confidence to move around and a lot of your other relationships and spaces.
FJ: And, you know, Michelle plays a role in my life of being someone who keeps track of me, where I am [laughs].
Michelle: I will say when he doesn't answer his phone, I get very nervous [laughs].
FJ: But on a more serious note, if I needed anything, Michelle would answer my need.
[MUSIC ENDS]
FJ: I may not talk to her for a month, but then we can talk right away. So she's like, uh, an old soul, but it-it’s funny... I didn't want to ever tell people how old I was because I thought they would think I was a has been or over the hill.
Michelle: Yeah. You know, thinking about that FJ is 50 years my senior... I feel like the first time I thought about that is now.
FJ: Well, I used to be very I used to be very conscious of that, but to help young people gain confidence in themselves, being able to love people--to tell them I love you-- it opens up my world as an 81 year old person. It’s like a flower that has burst open.
[THEME MUSIC FADES IN]
FJ: And so I have learned through Michelle and that I don't have to worry about how old I am.
Max Linsky: That was Father Joe Carey with Michelle Drappi, and from Pineapple Street Studios, this is 70 Over 70, a show about making the most of the time we have left. I'm Max Linsky.
[THEME MUSIC CONTINUES]
Max: My guest this week is Congressman Barney Frank.
Barney retired in 2013 after leading the fight for economic reform in the aftermath of the financial crisis. He served the people of Massachusetts for 24 years before that, focusing on housing reform, drug legalization, and civil rights.
Barney was the first openly gay congressman, and also one of the all-time funniest. I grew up in Boston and can remember watching clips of him on the news, my dad cackling next to me.
These days, Barney lives in a little town in Maine with his husband Jim, spends his time writing and he's still thinking about politics. His next book is about the future of democracy, but I wanted to know how he’s feeling about the country, and the world, right now.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Whether he’s satisfied with the progress that has been made on the issues he cares most about and what he would say to younger people who aren’t.
And I was also hoping that he had a good joke or two about getting older.
Barney Franks is 81 years old.
INTERVIEW
Max: Hi, Barney. Welcome to the show, sir.
Barney: Hello.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Max: It's it's very generous of you to do this. I appreciate it.
Barney: Thank you.
Max: We are,u m, I think, eight years from when you retired from Congress. And I don't know, I want to know whether or not you miss it, I think.
Barney: I miss some aspects of it. I, uh, I miss being able to influence public policy on the issues I most cared about, but I don't regret it. Um, I'd always said that I wasn't going to stay in public office after 75, and I got out two years before that would happened. Massachusetts had a congressional redistricting, and, uh, I'd spent 20 years representing, among other places, the city of New Bedford, a, uh, poor working class city, largely Portuguese ethnicity, some Cape Verdeans, some others. And I had become one of the major supporters of working fishermen in America. New Bedford's a very important fishing port. And in the new district, New Bedford wasn't going to be in the district I represented and I couldn't see staying in office and telling those people, ‘oh yes, I know you have problems, but I'm too busy with my other constituents’. On the other hand, particularly at this point, I'm 72 years old. Given the limits on my energy, my staff, my political influence, I couldn't adequately represent them. Um, so I left and at first I didn't want to leave, but I'm glad I did it that time.
Max: Why are you glad you did?
Barney: Well, I-I think I was burned out. My last, last four years with the financial crisis and coping with that, passing legislation to try and prevent its recurrence was very stressful. Satisfactory in a lot of ways, but stressful. And what I found since then, I enjoy the chance to get involved in issues that I feel strongly about and I take those opportunities, but my career to an extent, there was an ideological focus, which is to make the world fairer by diminishing economic gross, economic inequality, and discrimination and interference with personal choice. That's been made by a cluster of issues. And I think being able to think about good ways to put those through compensate somewhat for the loss of influence of not being in office. But I am very happy not to be responsible for any outcomes. Before I quit, I came to hate the telephone because phone calls almost always meant aggravation. It was a period in 2008 and 9, when every Friday afternoon or every other Friday afternoon, I’d get a call from the secretary treasury telling me about a disaster that was impending. I mean I used to want to leave the office early on Friday and not answer the phone.
Max: Because I was only going to be bad news on a Friday afternoon.
Barney: Yeah, it was going to be I changed my mind. So I particularly like now, that I can do what I think is important and advocate.
Max: Why had it been 75 for so long? Why was that the age you had in your mind?
Barney: Um, because I don't think I'm invincible. I've always tried to work to the limit of my capacity. You know, to me, physically and emotionally, and I believed then and I think accurately, that at 75 things begin to go downhill and people said, and it's true, well, you know, you can find ways to do good and less, you don't have to work at the same pace. But I don't think I could to do that. I didn't think, you know you'd generate expectations when you're working. And I couldn't, I think, announce to people, you know, remember the way I used to respond, or be always available, I decided I wanted to retire when people said, oh, damn, you're retiring and not oh, damn, you're not retiring.
Max: Right, right, right, right. You wanted you wanted to get out--
Barney: Yeah, I mean, I'll be a little arrogant, I think as a member of Congress I was a consistent 300 hitter [yeah]. And I didn't want to retire as a 270/260 hitter.
Max: Right, you didn't want to have that, like said farewell tour where you're striking out most times you get up to the plate, but everyone's happy to see you.
Barney: And even worse, I remember Lou Gehrig saying he knew the time had come to quit with that tragic illness he had when he got a single one day and when he came back to the dugout, everybody cheered him [Max laughs] and he said, OK, time to go.
Max: Right. You didn't even want to get patted on the back for just doing your job. This is a generalization, but like I-I was surprised to hear you say, I know that I'm not invincible. Because one of my experiences of elected officials is that they often think they are invincible. Does that sound right to you or no?
Barney: Yeah, I say this: When I got into politics, it did strike me that if you were a-a white Christian male, heterosexual you tended to have a very high estimate of your potential. Because when you particularly get elected to office, you live in a, uh, in a sea of adulation. People cheered for you and clapped for you –
Max: It's an ego machine.
Barney: Well, that's I think part of it. Is the politicians, you had this authority you were the honorable. I've said before I was somewhat immune from that, not because of any superior self-discipline, uh, I am Jewish, gay. I've had a lifelong battle with my weight, and I was an unlikely elected official. I never had this, uh, sense that I'm in the majority and I-I'm surely well suited to this. I always thought this is an uphill battle for me.
Max: Why do you think you pulled it off? What, how are you able to do it?
Barney: Luckily there are some things that I'm very good at. There are a lot of things that most people are good at, which I am incompetent.
Max: [laughs] Can you give me some examples?
Barney: Oh, sure. I have no manual dexterity, I've had three relationships with men over my life where we lived together... very different, very different. But I can hear each of them saying in his own voice, ‘Barney, don't touch it’ [Max laughs] because I would break think if something was not immediately responsive and, uh, I-I have no ability to translate from two dimensions to three.
Max: Okay.
Barney: Uh, I have no musical talent. When I was in the second grade, I learned that when I was asked--when my class was singing My Old Kentucky Home, by the way, an awful song. And but when we sang and I was so vigorously enjoying it, I was asked to just move my lips because I was disrupting others [Max laughs]. So those are some examples. On the other hand, there were things I'm very good at and those tend to be the ones that that are at a premium in legislating. I'll give you one example. Uh, I was originally going to write a PhD thesis. I thought at the time the best way to deal with the anti-gay prejudice, maximize my political involvement would be to become an academic. And I realized that I have a characteristic that is, uh, a great advantage in a legislative body and a disadvantage for an academic. And I mean this seriously, I have a short attention span. Essential if you're going to be in a legislative body, because in a legislative body, at the very least, you've got to deal with four or five important subjects in a day, maybe two or three at the same time. That was a great advantage. Plus, I'm very glib. The other thing I think would be helpful, I have had a pretty good background in dealing with people of all sorts. My father ran a truck stop in Jersey City, New Jersey, and for six or seven years in the summer on Saturdays, I worked there pumping gas and diesel at the truck stop. But for whatever reason, as I said, my particular combination of talents served me well in a legislative body, whereas they would have been a disaster if I try to advance as an academic.
Max: There's a lot in there I want to ask you about, but when you think of a smart person, what would you think of?
Barney: Well, in my case, I think of someone who is very good with ideas. Someone who has that intellectual facility, who is able to understand, for me, complex forces at work in society. The other area, I guess, a little counter to that is, I tend to have a very high regard for people who are especially proficient where I'm not. Scientists. I've never had a great affinity for-for the sciences.
Max: I've asked people that question for years, and my-my experience is that people answer one of two ways. Either they talk about a kind of smart that totally represents who they are or they talk about the exact opposite, but I think you're the first person who's brought up both.
Barney: Well, I am not an envious person. Probably because I'm, I think I'm very good at what I do, what I wanted to do, what I've done. I think I was very lucky that circumstances created a situation which I could be a legislator -- given that I don't envy people who were very good at other things
Max: Has that always been the case or is that something you found later in life?
Barney: No, no. Look, I started out secretly being gay, I realized I was gay when I was 13 in 1953, when, for example, one of the most respected men in the world, President Dwight Eisenhower, promulgated a rule that said if you were a homosexual, you were inherently unworthy and couldn't get a security clearance to work for the federal government.
So from then on, I had these very troubling feelings of insecurity and unpopularity, whatever, for being gay. Um, and when I first ran for office, I was pleasantly surprised that I could do it. I did not realize I would be good at legislating. I didn't know that in advance. And so my self-confidence, really I can remember after I got reelected in 1982, after I won beginning in late ‘82, ‘83, I began to say, yeah, you know what? I'm going to be able to keep this job and I'm good at it.
Max: And that's, you know, two years before you came out, right or--
Barney: Four years, I came out in--
Max: Four years, right.
Barney: I came out in May of ‘87
Max: And how did coming out interact with-with this thing we're talking about with self-confidence? Like, how did--
Barney: It boosted it. Um, first, I had to get to the situation where I thought I was good on legislating and I was a good candidate. And then in ‘83, I said, OK, now I can focus on the last major issue, which is my sexual orientation. And it took me a couple of years to work that out. And by that-that's what led to it OK, I've got everything I need now, except I'm still living this dual life and it's unsatisfactory. And I got the only way to resolve it is to come out. I thought that that would be a problem. I expected when I came out to suffer some loss in influence, but it was still I couldn't not do it. My personal needs were too great to my pleasant surprise coming out, probably enhanced my career and a lot of ways.
Max: And that was surprising to you?
Barney: Yes and it confirmed view that I had in a way, and I voiced it then and it's become even stronger now. I realized in the late 80s, Americans were less homophobic than they thought they were supposed to be, but more racist than they were ready to admit. And what happened is 1960s, all this legislation is passed to deal with anti-Black discrimination, racial discrimination, and at that point, Congress is making it worse for gay people. 1965, Congress enforces the federal law that said, a homosexual, you can't even be an immigrant to America. We don't want your kind. Over my career, what's happened is that the legal and social acceptance of gay and lesbian people has exceeded that of Black people.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Barney: And racism, while we've made progress, is a much more serious problem.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
[[MIDROLL]]
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Max: I want to talk to you about how those dynamics in the country have changed, but you said earlier that making the world a fairer place was your goal in public life.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Max: Do you have any regrets about your own work, when you think about where we are now?
Barney: Not generally. I, uh, I think a number of liberals, conservatives as well, I overestimated our capacity to promote democracy elsewhere. Uh, I now believe that, uh, there's a decent society,well governed, that's being attacked from from outside by another government, we can protect it. But if the internal political processes of a country are just awful, there's nothing we can do about it.
Max: Let me ask you that question a different way. I think the country is pretty fucked up right now. That the-the divide in economic inequality feels insurmountably vast. The climate is a disaster. It feels like pretty bad, and I guess the question is, does it feel that way to you or no? Like, am I-am I missing something? Am I getting it wrong?
Barney: Yeah, you're missing the good parts. When I grew up, there was significant anti-Semitism that restricted the career choices of a lot of Jewish people. That's pretty much gone. If you were gay or lesbian or bisexual, you lived with great disadvantages. In most of the country today, there were no legal disadvantages and very few social ones. So that's gotten better. If you are a woman today, your career choices are infinitely greater than they were when I was getting out of college, the young women who are getting out of college, most of them could be a teacher or a nurse or a secretary. As far as the climate is concerned, it is worse today than it was. But from the standpoint of trying to correct it, it's better than it's ever been. That is yeah, it was better in absolute terms 30 years ago, but that's because we were doing all this terrible stuff [right] and pouring all this shit into the air. And we have now recognized it as an issue and we are making some progress. And economically, yeah, there I think it was getting worse and I was frustrated and it finally boiled over the unfairness into Donald Trump. But I also think this is where I am in the minority of being hopeful, but I think people haven't focused on it yet, the reaction to Covid is so significant. People now understand that government is the only answer, both in terms of developing the vaccine and in offsetting--and the offset's very important. What we've done with these programs is not simply to stimulate economic growth that was hurt by the pandemic, but particularly help poorer people, those programs are both pro-growth and redistributive. And that's why I'm optimistic, if they work.
In America, if we deliver real benefits to the people who've been the victims of inequality and they see their lives improving in part as a result of government, then I think we-we have turned that corner as well. But that's still something that could be decided. But I can't think of an area of public policy that is worse today than it was 30 years ago.
Max: Yeah. You could talk circles around me on the policy and the-the specifics of how this have worked. I think the thing I'm trying to ask you about is slightly more ephemeral than that, which is, I think lots of young people are pissed and feel like the world, and particularly the country, are in a very bad place. And I think that many of those people lay the blame of that at your generation's feet [Oh, crap.] And so I guess..this is my question.
Barney: How many of them vote? How many of them can tell you who their congressman and senator and city council is? That-that is whining. Um, I for as long as I've been able to, have done what I could to change things. So at very least, I'm going to ask people, what -- have you been voting consistently for the people committed to the right things? And do you having voted for them let them know what you think. And if you haven't, what do you want me to do that? Because I do think if you talk about young gay people, well, I couldn't be more wrong. If you're talking about women, I can't imagine a woman thinking she would have been better off from being born then than now.
Max: Well, there's a distinction between thinking you would have been better off 40 years ago and not thinking where we are is good enough, right?
Barney: Let's put it this way, if people who are now 70 took the same attitude as people who are now 30 and said ‘oh, it's terrible and it's all your fault, then nobody would have worked to get it better. The more unhappy you are with the way things are today the more involved you ought to be.’ But what do they blame my generation for? Another couple specifics -- the worst problem in America is racism and racism remains, but confronting this pattern of police mistreatment of Black people that hasn't gotten any worse, it's gotten more public and in fact, there are some ways now to confront it.
Max: But you're not saying that better is good enough, right?
Barney: No, it seemed that what you were saying was that it was worse. No, I don't think better--but I'll tell you, one of the problems, one of the things I will say, is what I guess I should have been more explicit about the attitude you cited to me, in my experience, has too often been a--an excuse for not doing anything to improve it. No, I'm not saying that, uh, because it's better, it's good enough. I am saying people need two things, I think, to get involved for reform. One is a recognition that things are bad and need to be improved, but two -- a recognition that there is the possibility of improvement. I believe that all of these young people use their unhappiness as an excuse or a reason not to participate in making it better.
Max: I was not trying to say people think it is worse and aren't doing anything. I think the thing that I was interested in was as someone who worked very hard on these issues for a very long time, how do you, what's your relationship to people's frustration, to young people's frustration about the world they are inheriting?
Barney: Um, that I welcome it, if it is a gode to them trying to change things, but my experience has been that more often than been a reason not to try.
Max: Can we go back to the intelligence stuff for a second?
Barney: Sure.
Max: So what I hear you saying is that you were smart in a bunch of ways that were really helpful for a political candidate and for a legislator, short attention span, great memory, ability to work with all kinds of different people. I wonder, at 81, what your relationship is to that unique intelligence of yours.
Barney: It's nothing I did. I didn't do anything to become intelligent. I mean, that's where I was born. I, you know, I-I didn't decide to be left handed, gay, or smart. Those are all aspects of my personality that I inherited or whatever, um, but I was also a period in my life when I did not fully understand the advantage it gave me, and there was a period when I think I was somewhat obnoxious because I did not realize that I was given this advantage and, uh, I learned to take account of the fact-- I mean, they were times when I obviously want to be as, use my brain as much as I can, but you don't always have to outsmart everybody and it's not a good idea to be doing that.
Max: So your relationship to it now is--what I hear you saying is like it's like a slight remove?
Barney: No, my relationship to now is-is that I'm grateful. It is a great enabler for me. It made me a more influential member of Congress. It has made me richer.
Max: How do you use it in your day to day life? I mean, I understand how you're using it on Capitol Hill, but now you're living in a small town in Maine. And how does it manifest for you now?
Barney: Mostly in writing and speaking. It makes me, I think, a fairly effective advocate in public media of the things I care about,
Max: Do you feel any part of that slowing down for you, Barney?
Barney: I don't know. That's the other reason I got out of 75. That's the thing about your intellectual processes slowing down is that one of those that slows down is your judgment of your intellectual processes. So, uh, I don't know. Well, I take it back, I do. [Max laughs] And, you know, I said I think my-my intellectual property advantage, but my attention span is an issue. It's taking me longer to write this book than I than I wanted to. I’m finally getting it done. But I can't I cannot do intellectual work six, seven, eight hours a day. I get tired of it in the afternoon that I do understand I need naps at 81.
Max: Does it freak you out to think about losing that stuff like --
Barney: No, because it’s on the whole I think I'm happy with what I've done. There are questions that I can't know the answer to so I just ignore them --
Max: Yeah, you've been saying that for a long time.
Barney: Yeah, well, people about religion, about UFOs [Max laughs], I don't know and I don't care. It doesn't affect me. And mostly I don't see any way to resolve it.
Max: Are there any questions that at 81 you find yourself wrestling with?
Barney: Oh yeah. The-the fundamental one is how does democracy deal with the failure of people? Too many people believe stupid things [Max laughs]. I mean, what do you do? How do you how do you make democracy work if the people won't use their right to vote thoughtfully and responsibly? Now, I believe that a major part of that problem is in the inequality in our economic system, and I am hopeful that the quality of people's decision making in a democratic society will go up as fewer of them are driven by just outrage at economic inequality.
Max: Can I ask you some personal questions before we go?
Barney: Yup.
Max: Your husband is 30 years younger than you?
Barney: Twenty nine and a half.
Max: Is that gap different now than it was when you got together?
Barney: A little bit, because, yeah. Yeah, um, I have my hearing is deteriorated. I have a back issue now, so I'm not as mobile.
Max: And how does that-how does that change the dynamics of your marriage?
Barney: Um, it puts a little more strain on him to kind of take care of me. If anything, it strengthened the emotional ties.
Max: How so?
Barney: Well, I have become very more dependent on him and, uh, he worries about me a lot.
Max: Does that work for you?
Barney: Yeah.
Max: I feel like you've been-you've been giving me an incredibly fulsome answers for for like an hour, but now I'm getting one word answers.
Barney: Well, I mean, I don't know how else to say it, yeah, frankly, it's nice to have someone, uh, helping you cope with the difficulties. No, we went to,uh, we went out that evening, and he pushed me for five blocks in a wheelchair. I mean, what's not to like? [Max laughs] I mean, I don't like the fact that I can't walk that distance, but he's pushing me in a wheelchair. Sure, I appreciate that.
Max: How could you not? When you were in your early political life and in the closet and single, did you think that you were going to be single forever?
Barney: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I am one of two members of Congress, that I knew of, the other one of who has since died, who refused to participate in the congressional pension system because I plan to stay until I was 75 and calculated that I wouldn't live long enough after 75 to make back the pension contributions I would be making. I also felt it was a little too generous, but also I wasn't going to leave anybody who needed it. So, uh, I didn't-I didn't go in the pension system because I was convinced I would always be single, I had no one to leave it.
Max: So how does it feel now to think about that person and then realize where you are getting pushed down the street in a wheelchair?
Barney: Oh, I've been very, very happy, you asked about retirement. I don't know how I would have felt in retirement if I hadn't met Jim, if I weren't married, or at least in a relationship, obviously been a major positive factor in my enjoying retirement.
Max: You said at the beginning of this that you're happy to not be responsible anymore. What do you feel responsible for now? And what do you want for yourself?
Barney: I want to keep my health as long as I can. I want to get this book written. Uh, for Jim, I just want to make sure that since I will almost certainly predecease him that, uh, is going to be as good as it can be for him after.
I should tell you, by the way, as I thought about things, I have told Jim what I want my epitaph to be. It's a parliamentary phrase that's used when you have been allowed to speak and you are no longer entitled to hold the floor. The gentleman's time has expired. That's going to be my epitaph.
[MUSIC FADE IN]
CREDITS
Max: 70 Over 70 is a production of Pineapple Street Studios, and it’s produced by Jess Hackel.
Our associate producer is Janelle Anderson. Our editors are Maddy Sprung-Keyser and Joel Lovell. Research and additional reporting by Charley Locke.
Our mixer is Elliott Adler, and Jenna Weiss-Berman and I are the executive producers.
Our theme song is Like a Dream by Francis and the Lights and the music you’re listening to now is by Mavis Staples, who’s 82. Original music by Terence Bernardo. Additional music by Noble Kids, and music licensing by Dan Knishkowy.
Our cover art is by Maira Kalman, who’s 72 and our episode art is by Lynn Staley. She's 73, and she’s also my mom.
Special thanks this week to four people from Pineapple who make this show possible week in and week out: Grace Chen, Khadim Dieng, Erin Kelly, and Emerald O’Brien. Thanks to all of you. Thanks to FJ and Michelle. And thanks to Barney Frank.
I'm Max Linsky. Thanks for listening.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]