Gloria Allen thanks her role models for teaching her everything she ever needed to know about love. Then Max talks with Dionne Warwick about how, over her decades-long career, she has been able to hang on to her sense of self and why everyone – including Dionne – needs a backup plan.
Know someone who should be on 70 Over 70? We’re looking for all types of stories and people to feature at the top of the show. To nominate yourself or someone else, email 70over70@pineapple.fm or call 302-659-7070 and tell us your name, age, where you’re from and what you want to talk about.
transcription
[PRE-ROLL]
[OPENING MONTAGE]
Madeleine Albright: I know this program is 70 Over 70, but I really wish I were younger. I wish I was 70 … but, I am ready!
[THEME MUSIC STARTS]
William: I’m 72 years old.
Paula: I’m 75, miraculously enough.
Sandy: I am 83 years old.
Betty: I am 88 years old.
James: You know, I’m here at 92.
Lucia: I’ll be 94 in May.
Donalda: I’m 101 years old.
Gloria: My name is Gloria Allen. I'm 75 and I live in Chicago.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Gloria: If I could go back in time and thank anybody, it would be with my grandmother, my great aunt, and, of course, my beautiful mother.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Gloria: Oh, that would take me to heaven with them.
[MUSIC CONTINUES]
Gloria: Coming out of the closet, it doesn't apply to me because my mother knew from the beginning who I was and what I was. I was just a pretty little boy, but once a baby, then a lady, now I'm a woman.
My grandmother, my great aunt, and my mother, I look up to them still today because they were accepting of me and they would tell me. ‘you are so special and we are so proud of you,’
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Gloria: It’s a touching thing for me because I do that for my LGBTQ community. Young trans women or girls, I tell them, ‘Walk with your head up. You know, be proud of who you are and what you are’ and these three amazing women that I talk about all the time
[THEME MUSIC FADES IN]
Gloria: They taught me everything about love. They taught me how to love myself.
[MUSIC CONTINUES]
Max Linsky: That was Gloria Allen, and from Pineapple Street Studios, this is 70 Over 70, a show about making the most of the time we have left. I’m Max Linsky.
My guest this week is Dionne Warwick. You might know her as a singer, over the years she’s had 56 songs on the Billboard Top 100. You also might know her from her days hosting the Psychic Friends Network. Or maybe you just got to know her recently, during the pandemic, when she became one of the most popular, and most delightful, voices on Twitter.
Dionne grew up in New Jersey, she was part of a musical family--Whitney Houston was actually her cousin-- but it was the lessons she learned from her grandfather, a minister, that she returned to again and again in our conversation. He told her from a young age that she had a purpose, a reason for being.
And though she has constantly reinvented herself throughout her career, Dionne always knew who she was.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
I wanted to understand how she did that, how she had all these totally different lives and yet never lost her sense of self.
So I called her up.
Dionne Warwick is 80 years old.
INTERVIEW
Max: Dionne Warwick, welcome to the show. I can't believe you're here.
Dionne Warwick: Well thank you, thank you for inviting me.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Max: Uh, I got so much I want to talk to you about, but I feel like we got to start with this moment that you're having on the Internet. [Dionne laughs] You, like, basically own Twitter now. You are the queen of Twitter.
Dionne: That's what they tell me anyway. [laughs]
Max: Does it not feel like that to you?
Dionne: Oh, I'm having a ball. I'm having just a bunch of fun. That's what I'm doing.
Max: What's fun about it for you?
Dionne: Ah, you know, just being able to personal interface with the youngsters, especially those in the industry and being the grown-up on Twitter, you know what I'm saying? It's like the kids-- and I call them kids because they are compared to-to me-- uh, they gravitate to me. It's just wonderful. You know, they're asking questions and really pertinent ones. And I hope I'm being of-of some good for them. They seem to have--uh, love my wit and my straightforwardness.
Max: Yeah. Before this, did you not feel very connected to that generation of people?
Dionne: No, not really. I didn't, you know, I kind of remained with my peers. And, uh, you know, it's not something that I feel I have to do every single day. I don't get up in the morning and say, oh gotta get on Twitter. No. You know, I just --I choose my time and some wonderful things have developed because of it. You know, I've made some wonderful friends and the younger generation of entertainers, one being Chance the Rapper. [Mhmm] He's just a wonderful young man. And as a result of it, Chance and I will be recording very very soon.
Max: No way, that's amazing!
Dionne: Yeah! And, uh, he's very happy about it too, which makes me feel very good.
Max: It's so nice to hear that, um, it's more than just giving you a chance to make some jokes, although your jokes are very good. [Dionne laughs] But it's nice to hear that real world stuff is coming out of it too.
Dionne: Uh huh. It is, you know, and--well not only with Chance, I'll be also going in the studio with The Weekend.
Max: Really?
Dionne: Like I said, I've made some wonderful friends. I first of all, didn't think they knew who I was, much less me know who they are. You know? [Max laughs] It's just that it's become more than just, um, me being on Twitter. [laughs] You know? It's forming wonderful friendships and bonds.
Max: Well, that's part of what I wanted to ask you about is, you know, whether it's Chance or The Weekend or just a young person who's on Twitter, what do you think they're understanding of Dionne Warwick was before this moment where you connected with them?
Dionne: Well, first of all, I'm certain that somewhere along the line, their mom and dad had to play a record of mine every now and then [both laugh]. But no, they-they basically they all know who I am insofar as recording are concerned, but they didn't know Dionne, the person.
Max: Right.
Dionne: And that's who I want all of them to know, the person. You know, everybody has a career and we all understand that, but what are you made out of? I am Dionne from beginning to end. I will always be who I am. I-I like me, you know? So there's no reason for me to be anything other than who and what I am. And I think that's really the-- what is, um, becoming the charm. You know, that they're finding that... that's a real person. [laughs]
Max: And that's always been the case for you. Like you've, uh, you've always known who you were and liked that person?
Dionne: Absolutely. You know, my uh my parents, God rest them both, and my grandparents, all of my relatives, have always been who they are. And my mom and dad made sure that I realize you can only be who you are. You cannot be anyone else, so don't even try it. Just be Dionne. And, you know, even my friends that I made during my primary years and are still with us, those still with us will tell you in a heartbeat, well, unless you really want know don't ask Dionne [laughs] ‘cause she will tell you. You know, I've always been the one that has been straight up. I had found no reason not to be that way. It's the old saying what you see is what you get. That's what it is.
Max: It's hard to be that way, I mean, for other people at least, ‘cause there can be some risks in, like, saying what you really think. You know?
Dionne:You know what my grandfather told me ages ago? My grandfather was a minister and he always said the truth prevails. And I truly believe that. And he says I don't care what goes up or down. You tell the truth. And there's gonna be moments when it's going to blow up in your face and people going to look at you cross-eyed and act like you don't exist. He says, but when the smoke clears, guess who's going to be standing tall, you. And that's my M.O.
Max: And when you say, like, I've always known who I am, I'm the same person as I was 20 years ago or 30 years ago. 40 years ago...
Dionne: Yeah.
Max: That's what that means it's being honest, saying what's on your mind.
Dionne: Yeah, being who you are, you know, and what's-what's wrong with saying what's on your mind? That's why you have the mind. You know, everybody has an opinion. And those opinions should be able to be voiced, understood, accepted and or, let's have a little discussion about it. [Mhmm.] You know, there's nothing wrong with that at all.
Max: Has that stayed steady as you've had all of these different reinventions of your career, you know what I mean? Like, you've had these totally different eras in your public life.
Dionne: Sure. You know, every-every year brings something new. I happen to be, I feel, truly blessed. First of all, I have been still within this industry and well respected and regarded all close to 60 years now and have not deedled or dawleded from who and what I-I am. You know, I had the opportunity to become a part of the disco scene when those recordings were being made but that's when my recording career kind of went into a lull. And I-I didn't feel comfortable thinking that well, let me jump on the bandwagon. First of all, I don't think those that were supportive of my career, at that point in time, would have even considered Dionne Warwick doing disco. [Max laughs] Uh, no.
Max: Not an option.
Dionne: [laughs] No, not at all. And I always felt too, you know, there was one young lady that I happened to know. Her name was Donna Summer. She owned that realm of music and, you know, why am I going to jump in that pool when I don't know how to swim? [both laugh] Okay?
Max: But other people did, right? Other people saw disco come in and said, well, I need to jump in that pool, even if it's pretty full already.
Dionne: Yes. In fact, there's one that I-I still kind of look sideways at for doing that. And that's Barbra Streisand, who decided she was going to become a disco queen, that she utilized the wherewithal of Donna Summers to do it. You know, enough is enough. And it was enough for me [laughs] as far as I was concerned. You know, that was just not her area to excel in.
Max: In that period of your life, were you competitive with other artists?
Dionne: You know, I feel that I wasn't competing with anybody in the field at all. You earned everything that you receive. You know, nothing is given to you. You know, I looked at it as I was supportive mostly of those who are in the same realm that I was in. And those are the friends that I made during the course of-of this time. You know, I don't think there's anybody in the world that could do what Gladys Knight does [mhmm] and I support her. Nobody can do what Patti Labelle does, I support her, or Diana Ross or any of the other ladies that were really excelling and making some wonderful music. And I applaud them. I think that's the way you're supposed to do it.
Max: Did you feel like when you were recording so prolifically that you were able to be who you were fully?
Dionne: Absolutely. You know, we were doing something that was completely different than anything else that was being recorded during that period of time. And, uh, I was doing what I do. So...and everybody else is doing what they do as far as I was concerned.
Max: And what about like when, um, you know, there was a period where people were calling you a crossover artist, where you were doing more pop music than the R&B, that you had been?
Dionne: I was doing music. I've never been able to categorized, you know. I don't care what people thought I was. And, you know, and I-I have never, ever felt that music should be separated. You know, when we come down to it, we all sing the same eight notes. They're only the eight notes in the scale, 13 , if its chromatically. And it's like it's only the way that is presented that makes it different from anything else.
Max: Right. Except for disco.
Dionne: Disco, same thing. The same 8 notes.
Max: I'm just joking. I'm just joking. [Dionne laughs] I know that you've said to me a couple of times now that you've always known who you are, but, aside from being someone who says what they think, what else does that mean? Like, I know this is kind of a ridiculous question, but like, who do you think you are?
Dionne: I am Dionne. That simple, nothing more. Nothing less.
Max: And-and when you were in that lull, right, when you were, like, not going to sing disco, you felt that just as strongly?
Dionne: You know yes, I did. You know what, it did really gave me an opportunity to be the mother I'm supposed to have been. An opportunity to stay home. I had the opportunity to-to just be for a minute and to regroup and think, okay, I got my credentials. I can always teach if it comes to that, you know. I became what most people don't think we are-- the human being that I am and re-visit who Dionne really is. Not the one that you see on the stage with the gowns and the this and the that and the dadada da di.
Max: Is there a gap, you think, between the person that your fans thought you were and who that person that you reconnected with is?
Dionne: You know, people are gonna always have an opinion, and that's OK. Your-your opinion happens to be your thoughts. Unless you get to--get it directly from the source, you know, you gonna I think whatever you want to think and then leave it. So as long as you spell my name right, okay? [Max laughs] That's all I ask for.
Max:That's all that matters to you?
Dionne: [laughs] Can't tell you how many times I've been Diane, you know. And, uh, I used to correct people. And I remember vividly one lady followed me through the airport screaming "Diane, Diane, Diane," [Max laughs] and I finally turned around and I looked at her and I said, 'Let me spell my name for you,' and I did. I said, ‘there's not an A anywhere within Dionne,’
Max: Well, I've got to ask you if you're going to bring up the spelling of your name, wasn't your name misspelled on your first album?
Dionne: Yes, it was and I was completely distraught about it. I really was. And again, my grandpa he was just--you know my grandfather was my biggest fan. And he said, 'My darling, listen,' He said, ‘you know, your name is Warrick. With two R's,’ He said ‘you you use that "w" in a very, very special way. W-a-r-w-i-c-k is your stage name, your professional name,’ I said ‘oh, yeah that makes sense grandpa,’ And it does.
Max: Help me understand how it makes sense.
Dionne: How does it make sense?
Max: Yeah.
Dionne:That's who I'm known as.
Max:And you can be kind of both people at once?
Dionne: I am both people at once.The funny thing about it is my-my name, Warrick, that's the way it is pronounced outside of this country. It’s pronounced Warrick. In England it's pronounced Warrick. In Brazil, it's pronounced Warrick. So it didn't change at all. [laughs]
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Max: Right, it's like, uh, it can be two things and the same thing.
Dionne: Exactly. One and the same.
[[BREAK/MIDROLL]]
Max: When you think back to your earliest performances, you know, maybe a time you took the stage for the first time in front of a packed house. How did that feel? Can you remember that feeling?
Dionne: Yeah, I can. I've been singing in front of people since I'm six years old. And... I think the first time I ever felt a bit of terror--absolute terror--was my first time at the Apollo Theater, performing as a solo artist. And I'll tell you how I got over that. Nina Simone happened to be standing in the wings prior to my going out on stage. And she looked at me and she saw the terror in my eyes. [laughs] She said, "you afraid, right?" I said 'I am scared to death,' [Max laughs] And she said, 'Well, I want to give you some little tidbit here. When you go out there, you go out there and make that stage so hot that whoever has to come there after you will have to tiptoe in order to keep from burning their feet. [laughs]
Max: Oh man, that's amazing!
Dionne: She said exactly those words to me. And when I walked out on that stage, it was the most confident that-- [laughs] She gave me that confidence to do that.
Max: She just flipped a switch for you.
Dionne: Yes, she did. I love her to this very day for that.
Max: How old were you when you walked on that stage?
Dionne: Twenty six. Never forget it.
Max: Yeah, I can imagine. Do you remember how long your set was?
Dionne: Three songs. [laughs] Three songs.
Max: Do you remember what they were?
Dionne: Sure do. Don't Make Me Over. Anyone Who Had a Heart. And What I Say, Ray Charles' What I Say.
Max: And how did that feel when you finished that Ray Charles tune?
Dionne: It was magic. Them people were standing up screaming, they were having the best time with me. [laughs] I loved it.
Max: Man, that must just be an unbelievable feeling to have Nina Simone--
Dionne: Uh, you'll never know. [laughs] It's one of those you had to be there. [laughs]
Max: It’s amazing to hear you tell that story. It makes me think about how many incredible rooms you've been in in your life. How many legendary people you've crossed paths with.
Dionne: Yeah.
Max: Are there any other moments where someone gave you a piece of advice that you held on to that changed the course of your life in some way that you could think of?
Dionne: Oh, absolutely. My mentors, all of them. And, you know, and it sounds like I'm name dropping when I tell you who my mentors were. But it's the God's honest truth. You know I was embraced by the icons of our industry. I mean, THE. Sarah Vaughan, Ella Fitzgerald, Lena Horne, Diahann Carroll, Eartha Kitt, Marlene Dietrich, Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, Sammy Davis Junior. Yeah, I was allowed to sit in rooms with them and hear their stories. They threw their arms around me and made me their baby. They spoiled rotten [Max laughs] and I still am and I loved every minute of it [laughs].
Max: I read your book and there's a story in there about you taking notes.
Dionne: Yeah, Diahann Carroll.
Max: Yeah, with Diahann Carroll. What-what would you write down in that situation?
Dionne: What she wore. The songs that she sang, the words that she spoke when she was introducing songs or just bantering with the audience. She was, as were those of the ladies that I mentioned, they were playing those places that I saw myself playing eventually. And I wanted to know what they were doing that made it so that they could play the places. The way they looked, the way they walked, all those things that made them who they are. And they in turn, once they embraced me, you know, made sure that I walked straight and narrow.
Max: Dionne, do you miss that time in your life?
Dionne: Um...
Max: Being on stage that often? Being in those rooms?
Dionne: Yeah I do. I'm missing it. Right now, I've been home for a year. This is only place I've ever been really able to, first of all, enjoy my home [laugh] and sleep in my own bed. And get up if I wanted to or if I didn't, I didn't. I'm utilizing this sort of as a vacation I never had. It's been been absolutely wonderful. But I am missing my profession. I'm missing what I do.
Max: But even now. Do you feel like you can do it in the same way? I mean, once we get out of this--
Dionne: Of course, you know I know I guess you missed the fact that it doesn't matter where I am or what room I'm playing or what auditorium I'm singing in or you know where I'm performing. I am always me [laughs]. You know, I have gotten on stage, I’ve forgotten words to songs and look out in the audience somebody is singing the right words. I say yeah. Yeah, got that right. You sing the right words. You know, it's uh you know... I think people know once I hit that stage or anywhere else that I'm performing, I just have a God given talent that I'm utilizing and trying to make you happy. And if I'm doing that, that's what my j-o-b is.
Max: That's such a generous way to think about it.
Dionne: It's the only way to think about it, really. If you stop and think at all.
Max: Do you ever think about a day when you can't go on stage anymore?
Dionne: No, not really but I do have something that I do aside from singing. I have an interior design company that keeps me quite busy as well. And I also have my credentials if I feel I want to teach. I'm not concerned about not being able to go on stage any longer. You know, that's going to be another vacation for me [laughs].
Max: What would you teach?
Dionne: Music education, that's what my degree is in.
Max: Have you taught any time recently?
Dionne: No. I haven't had time to.
Max: It would be, uh, it would be really fun to take a music class with you.
Dionne: [laughs] You think so, huh? [laughs]
Max: Yeah.
Dionne: Ok. I'm not, uh, I'm not very difficult but I do expect the very best that you can give me.
Max: I don't find that very surprising. I got to tell you.
Dionne: [laughs] I'm glad to hear that. Thank you. [laughs]
Max: I do find it a little surprising that you're still thinking about teaching as a backup plan, though. Like um, you're Dionne Warwick. You don't need a backup plan, right?
Dionne: Why not? Everyone should have one.
Max: I don't know, I guess I guess I think of you as, um, having reached the peaks of some pretty tall mountains, you know.
Dionne: And? Why stop?
Max: Yeah, I guess so. I mean, to be honest with you, I think that's that's something I'm trying to figure out myself a little bit. You know, is is there some point that you can reach where you'll feel content? Is there some point that feels like, all right, I did the thing, I'm good, I'm done? [Dionne laughs] Or is that not a real idea, you know?
Dionne: No, there's always something else, there always is. You know, your brain doesn't stop. You know, you're always thinking and an idea will pop into your brain that you can manifest, so why be content with only what you're doing at this point in time? Have you written a book?
Max: No, no, I haven’t.
Dionne: Why not?
Max: Uh, I don't know, some combination of it seems very difficult, and I don't think anyone would want to hear what I have to say.
Dionne: How would you know that until you try?
Max: Now, you're going to make me sit down and feel like I have to write a book.
Dionne: Why not? You know, if you're able to do what you're doing now, what's to prevent you from writing a book or a screenplay [Max laughs]?
Max: I don't know. What do you-what do you think stops people from doing those things?
Dionne: Encouragement maybe? You know, nobody's putting the thought in your path.
Max: Yeah.
Dionne: And I just did. [Max laughs]
Max: I think on some level, it's the reason that I mean, the reason that I don't do things at least is just fear, I think.
Dionne: Fear of what?
Max: I don't know, failing? [Dionne laughs]
Dionne: Have you've been told no, have you been told no before?
Max: Yeah, I've been told no before. I don't think I liked it very much.
Dionne: Well, that's what you're not supposed to like. Because "no" doesn't exist in my vocabulary. But on the other side of no has got to be a yes.
Max: Is that something you can learn?
Dionne: No, it's something that you practice, not learn, you practice it.
Max: How do you practice it?
Dionne: You know the old saying, when one door closes another one opens?
Max: Yeah.
Dionne: And it does happen. You just have to keep finding those doors, and keep opening them and if close go to the next one. One of them will open.
Max: Is that how you think about your-your life and your career? Just like, um, when you look back at it, does it look like one cohesive plan, like a-like a-like a journey that always made sense? Or does it feel more random and chaotic than that?
Dionne: You know, I was taught from jump street, very young in life, by my grandpa again, that we are preordained as to what we will put on this earth to do. God has a plan for you. And he keeps putting other things in your way to accomplish, and once you've done everything he wants you to do-- and I mean this sincerely from my heart--once your task has been completed, then you reap your reward. That's when we can say, okay, I want my reward. Give it to me. [both laugh]
Max: Can I ask you one more question, I'll let you go. [Mhmm.] What was your grandfather's name?
Dionne: Elzae, e-l-z-a-e. Reverend Elzae Warrick.
Max: It's incredible to hear you talk about the impact that he had on you. I mean, he's come up again and again and again in this conversation.
Dionne: Yeah, my grandfather was quite something. He was a brilliant minister, knew that bible forward and backwards. And, uh, lived the life of the Bible. And made sure that we knew the Bible and tried to live our lives in that fashion and, you know, pearls of wisdom that he was throwing our way.
Max: Yeah.
Dionne: You know, and all those things kind of come forward when you're faced with situations. And all of a sudden it's like, ‘oh, grandpa said that was going to happen, now what am I supposed to do now,’ [laughs] You know?
Max: How old were you when he passed?
Dionne: Let's see. I had to be about twenty eight, twenty nine.
Max: Can I ask you how you, um, how you moved on without him?
Dionne: You know, like I said, when you have completed the task that God put you here to do, you will go and reap your reward. And that's what he did. And there were moments too, you know, that I-I would question it [laughs] I mean, truly question it. I remember talking, saying something to him one afternoon. I thought he was going to chew my head off. I said to him, "Grandpa, God can do everything right?' Yes, that's true. I said ,'Nuh uh, there's one thing God can't do,' And I thought he was going to kill me. He said, "Did you hear what you just said,' I said 'yeah, there's one thing God can't do,' and he said 'OK young lady what is that one thing God can't do,' and I looked at him and I said, 'fail'. [laughs] He laughed, I think, for 20 minutes. [laughs] He laughed till tears came out of his eyes. You know, he was just, um, somebody I truly loved and believed and felt that he had every answer to every question.
Max: Do you still feel that way about him now, like--
Dionne: Yeah, I do. And I not only feel that way about him, you know, I've lost...I jokingly say, but it's true, I'm an orphan now. My mom, my dad, my grandparents, my sister, my brother are all gone. They gone reap their rewards. But I know that they are looking down on me. I know for sure my dad, especially, because they have moments when I open my mouth ready to say something. And his favorite words to me was 'Think, before you speak,' [both laugh] ‘Cause my mouth was open and my foot would fly in it more times than not. [laughs]
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Dionne: I know that they-they got their eye on me, they're watching me.
[MUSIC CONTINUES]
CREDITS
Max: 70 Over 70 is a production of Pineapple Street Studios, and it’s produced by Jess Hackell
Our associate producer is Janelle Anderson. Our editors are Maddy Sprung-Keyser and Joel Lovell. Research and additional reporting by Charley Locke.
Our mixers are Raj Makhija and Elliott Adler. And Jenna Weiss-Berman and I are the executive producers.
Our theme song is Like a Dream by Francis and the Lights and the music you’re listening to right now is by Arthur Russell. Original music by Terence Bernardo. Additional music by Noble Kids, and music licensing by Dan Knishkowy.
Our cover art is by Maira Kalman, who’s 72. And our episode art is by Lynn Staley. She’s 73 and she’s also my mom.
Thank you Gloria Allen, and thank you Dionne Warwick.
I’m Max Linsky. Thanks for listening.