Howard Kakita explains how surviving the atomic bomb has impacted his perspective on aging. Then Max talks with Nikki Giovanni about why she thinks getting older is a good idea, how she decided to let the next generation of activists take the lead, and why her only goal at age 78 is to find someone to love.
Learn more about Howard Kakita’s A-Bomb survival story and about his work with the American Society of Hiroshima-Nagasaki A-Bomb Survivors
Know someone who should be on 70 Over 70? We’re looking for all types of stories and people to feature at the top of the show. To nominate yourself or someone else, email 70over70@pineapple.fm or call 302-659-7070 and tell us your name, age, where you’re from and what you want to talk about.
transcription
[PRE-ROLL]
[OPENING MONTAGE]
Madeleine Albright: I know this program is 70 Over 70, but I really wish I were younger. I wish I was 70 … but, I am ready!
[THEME MUSIC STARTS]
William: I’m 72 years old.
Paula: I’m 75, miraculously enough.
Sandy: I am 83 years old.
Betty: I am 88 years old.
James: You know, I’m here at 92.
Lucia: I’ll be 94 in May.
Donalda: I’m 101 years old.
Howard Kakita: My name is Howard Kakita, I'm 83 years old, and I live in Rancho Palace Verdes in California.
[THEME MUSIC FADES OUT]
Howard: What's my favorite food? Um…
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Howard: I love steak, especially, uh, cooked rare, and I love pasta. Well, actually, uh, they're my favorite right now, but they used to give me a lot of trouble, uh, when I was much younger.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Howard: Well, on the morning of, uh, August 6th, 1945 I was in first grade, grammar school in Hiroshima and on the way to school, there were children coming back. And they told us that because they were in enemy aircraft here in the neighborhood, that school was canceled. So happily, you know, both my brother and I, we ran home and, uh, we climbed on top of this roof and looking for the B-29 vapor trail coming towards us. Lucky for us my grandmother told us to get off the roof immediately, you know, because the bomb could fall on us. And when the bomb went off at 8:15 we were only eight tenth of a mile from Ground Zero. And it knocked me out instantaneously.
When I came to I could smell the smoke and I could hear some fire burning around me. So I dug myself out and found my brother in the courtyard, not realizing the fact that the whole city was burning. So my grandmother took us by the hand and we escaped the burning area. It was no panic, there was just a slow, like walk of zombies slowly walking trying to escape. Some had burns so severe.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Howard: I recall one person had a huge gash in the stomach area. But, we walked through the sea of carnage and we found a functional train station. I remember riding a train to go to a small town a few miles outside of Hiroshima. We stayed there until the end of the war, and two and half years, I guess, after the bombing, we came to the United States.
[MUSIC CONTINUES]
Howard: I used to have nightmares about my experience and some of the food reminded me too much of the gore, uh, that I witnessed when I was younger. Like rare meat or pasta with marinara sauce, uh, would, uh, make me ill or nauseous. If somebody had told me 75 years ago that those two items would be my favorite food, uh, I would say no. But the fact, I guess I'm able to overcome, uh, the memory of the gore and enjoy those items now, you know... I think that time softens the wound, but I don't think it could heal everything.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Howard: The memories of, uh, Hiroshima never left me. The memories are still there but that moment does not define who I am. It’s an event in my past but….
[THEME MUSIC STARTS]
Howard: However, it does give me perspective and it does teach you how to live a little bit better.
[THEME MUSIC CONTINUES]
Max Linsky: That was Howard Kakita, and from Pineapple Street Studios, this is 70 Over 70, a show about making the most of the time we have left. I'm Max Linsky.
My guest this week is Nikki Giovanni.
She's a poet. She’s a professor. And she’s an activist.
[THEME MUSIC FADES OUT]
Max: Nikki got her start writing in an MFA program at Columbia, but academia didn’t work for her — she didn’t like being told what she should and shouldn’t write. So she dropped out. It was 1968 and just a few months later, she published her first poetry anthology. The book was called Black Feelings, Black Talk and it launched her into the national spotlight, making her a major figure in the civil rights movement. It's a role she has played now for more than 50 years.
And in a way that feels rare to me, Nikki is clear that her place is no longer on the front lines, that her role is changing.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Max: It's not that she can't do the work anymore, it's that she shouldn't. Nikki believes it's time for a new generation of activists to lead and it’s her job to support them.
I wanted to understand what it’s been like to take that step back and what you learn about yourself when you do.
Nikki Giovanni is 78 years old.
INTERVIEW
Max: Nikki, welcome to the, uh, welcome to the show. Thank you for doing this.
Nikki Giovanni: Oh, thank you. I'm glad-I'm glad to be here.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Max: I'm wondering if we can go back, uh, in time for a second to your time at Columbia, when you were getting your MFA--or when you were there to get your MFA. And I wonder if you could talk to me a little bit about what happened and specifically why you didn't stay.
Nikki: Well, I was at the University of Pennsylvania, School of Social Work and, uh, Louis Shoemaker, who was, um, the dean there was a wonderful, wonderful woman. She said to me one day, “You know, Ms. Giovanni let's, uh, I'd like to have lunch with you”. And I said, “That's, you know, fine Dean Shoemaker.” And she said, “We don't think you'll be [laughs] a social worker, but we all have enjoyed your writing. And there is a new program. And it's called the MFA, Master of Fine Arts.” And I said, “Oh, how nice.” And she said, “Well, I hope you don't mind, but I applied for you.” And I said, “Well, thank you. I really appreciate that.” She said, “Yes and you were accepted.” And I said, “Oh, how wonderful” [both laugh]. You know, I'm just trying to be nice because how am I going to get to Columbia? Where am I going to find the money to be, you know? And she said “I feared that you might not have the financial situation that you need. So I applied for a scholarship for you,” [Max laughs] and she said “And I'm and I'm so pleased you were accepted for the scholarship.” And I said, “Uh, thank you, Dean Shoemaker.” And she said “It worried me a little bit that you didn't have maybe some extra money,” I'm just kind of looking at her. And she said, “So I, uh, applied through, uh, a foundation for you to have a little extra money” [laughs] I was like, “What?”
Max: That's so many things at once.
Nikki: [laughs] And so she said, “Now you'll-you'll be leaving at the end of next semester.” [Max laughs] And I said, yes, --you now nothing to say but-- yes, of course. She said, “And you will have to find an apartment” [laughs] I guess she said you have to do something. And I’m just looking like “I'll be able to do that.” She said, “Well, then we're so pleased.” [Max laughs]. I did find an apartment on Amsterdam Avenue and I-I was in the program for just about a semester. But, um, I went to class and, you know, sit and talk and stuff and I finally realized this isn't working for me [laughs]. One, I didn't really care what they had to say and I didn't think that that's what my job was. My job was to write and to be honest and truthful.
Max: But how did you know that you weren't interested anymore in what those people thought? How did you get that sense so clearly that it was time?
Nikki: My goodness. You know, [laughs] it's just something you're 21, 22 years old, and you either going to have the life you want or you're going to let other people control you. By the time I got to Columbia, and let me be as honest as I can about it, I was simply uninterested. It was time for me to be in control of my life. So that was just too easy. I don't know how- [laughs]
Max: Well, I think for most people, the thing that you just described as easy is very, very hard.
Nikki: I don't think anything is easy, and I, um, I'm still teaching and I say to my students, you know, nothing is easy. I hate people that say that, um, because I have trouble with the - what are these things - computer. I still don't know how to email and I don't Facebook or tweet or any of that. I don't know how to do it. And one of my students said, “Oh, you know, Nikki,”--because my kids call me Nikki, which is fine-- “Oh, Nikki, you know, it's easy.” And I said, “Whatever we say in this room, easy it’s not going to be. Because I would say that to you. If I said write a poem, I would say, oh, it's easy to write a poem.” Nothing is easy.
Max: Um, I won't say it's easy. I do think you'd be really good at Twitter.
Nikki: Oh.
Max: I think you should give it a shot.
Nikki: Well, I'm [laughs] thank you and I-I appreciate all of that, but the time I would spend learning how to use a machine to talk to people that I neither know nor give a damn about, it just...it doesn't work for me. It's not going to work. If I have to learn something right now, I want to learn how to make biscuits. And I've really been working on that. My-my grandmother made just incredible biscuits. So if I had the choice between Twitter and biscuits, biscuits are going to win.
Max: Are there other things outside of cooking that you want to learn right now?
Nikki: Uh, I want to really--don't laugh--I want to learn how to eat with chopsticks because I-I like Chinese food [laughs] and I thought if I'm going to eat Chinese food, I ought to know how to eat the utensils with it. So that's-that's something I am going to learn when I retire. I'm going to take classes or whatever one must do so that I can learn to eat with chopsticks.
Max: Can I tell you something? I don't know how to do it either. [Nikki laughs] And my six year old does and he thinks it's the funniest thing in the world that he can use chopsticks and I can't. But I don't know how to do it. It's hard to learn. It’s going to take you some time.
Nikki: Well, yeah. [laughs]
Max: I want to, uh, I want to get back to Columbia for just a second, because this thing you just said, right, is that nothing is easy. But that the decision to leave that MFA program was simple for you. It was clear. And I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about what it felt like to leave, to say I'm done with this for now.
Nikki: Uh, I...there's some things you find yourself having no particular words with. I just know that this is not working for me. Why am I wasting my time? If this was going to work and I enjoyed writing, I thought I'm going to have to find another way to see if this can work. And since the only thing that I could do, the only skill or talent or whatever it is that I had, all I could do was watch. And if that's all you can do is watch and you know, it's common sense, then words are going to be your way of how you go through your life. How you protect yourself and how you define yourself has to be words. And I have the great distinction, probably, of, um, not graduating from anything. I didn't graduate from high school because I-I went to college early. I was what is called an early entrant to Fisk University. And after [laughs] I got kicked out of Fisk, I ended up in University of Pennsylvania. I didn't finish there. And then I ended up in Columbia and I didn't finish there. So there's something to be said for not finishing, I guess. [laughs]
Max: Wait, why'd you get kicked out of Fisk?
Nikki: Oh, that's probably more than anybody wants to hear. It's the normal college thing.
Max: OK, all right. You could- I-I want to hear it. You can't tell me that-that you're not going to tell me 'cause I don't want to hear it.
Nikki: Ah, it’s just stupid things that you do when you're in college. You know, you go to parties you- the dean says you can't leave campus and that was Dean, uh, Cheatham. And I didn't think and I still don't that Dean Cheatham or anybody else can tell me where I can and can't go. And so you had one of those kind of problems. I'm not good with authority. I'm still not.
Max: [laughs] But one thing that that reading through your work, that was confusing to me. And I think maybe the reason I've been asking so much about Columbia is I was confused about why it was so clear to you that you didn't want to be part of that MFA program and then, quite quickly, you found yourself teaching.
Nikki: Well, I did anything that any other writer will do, but, you know, you teach for a couple of weeks here you go and teach there. And it wasn't until I was recruited to Virginia Tech that I actually had what is called a real job. And that was just a few- that was, I don't know, 20 years ago now, something like that.
Max: Well, I've heard you talk about this 8 a.m. class of yours. [Yeah.] How that's the last thing you'd give up. Can you tell me why and also maybe just describe for me what it's like when you walk in that room at 8 a.m.?
Nikki: I love that class. And if you're dealing with, uh, your students at 8 o'clock in the morning, they are coming to you from their dreams. They really just literally almost get out of bed, pull their jeans or their sweatpants on or whatever they're doing and come to class. And they haven't had things to annoy them, you know, at-at about 11 or 12 o'clock, the 1 o'clock class, they're already annoyed by 800,000 things. But you get them at 8 o'clock in the morning, they coming from their dreams and therefore you're going to enter into that dream and help them to find a way to translate the dream into words. I love it. I mean, for just that reason.
Max: And what about for you or you coming in, uh, fresh from your dreams too?
Nikki: [laughs] Well, I probably have gotten up a little...a little earlier.
Max: Yeah, is that-is that how you’re wired? Are you, uh, are you a morning person?
Nikki: I'm an early morning person or a late night. And I was having dinner with my son um--oh a couple of weeks ago now--and he said, you know, something had come up. And he said, “Yeah, but you used to be writing.” He said, “I always knew when it was 11 o'clock 'cause you used to write.” And I said, “You heard me?” He said “I heard the typewrite-” because that's when you had typewriters- and he said,” I would hear the typewriter,” he said “you were riding at 11 o'clock.” I never knew. I-I was amazed that-that he heard me at 11 o'clock because at 11 o'clock for me on Saturday, I heard my father hit my mother. And I guess at some point I could or should, and I haven't right now, write what 11 o'clock means.
Max: Hm. Why haven't you yet, do you think, written that?
Nikki: Just not ready.
Max: What's it going to take for you to be ready?
Nikki: I-I don't know. I don't know. [laughs] I'm just not ready. When I am, it will, but I-I don't push myself like that. But, uh, I had no idea that he heard me write.
Max: Mm hmm.
Nikki: You have to, you know, you just have to be ready. You-you can't keep pushing yourself. You can't make yourself. So you can do what I'm doing now. You can start to talk about it.
Max: Yeah.
Nikki: And as you're talking about it, it's becoming. It's coming together in another way.
Max: How conscious is that process for you, like, is it-is that something you're actively thinking about or is that just the way that your work has worked?
Nikki: Well, things come up. Words come up or, uh, I love music and, uh, I'm a jazz fan and I'll be listening to music and hear a line and wonder what the lyric to that line is or could be or should be or what they did wrong. And-and even-even I did that sometimes I'm listening it's like, oh, that's a really bad [both laugh] terrible line there. And some things are not interesting to you or anybody else. And then some things like 11 o'clock. Probably wouldn't have thought about it if, uh, my son Thomas, if he hadn't mentioned, 'I heard you. I always knew,' And you know you don't you know, you don't think about it. You have children. You don't think about what your children know about you.
Max: Yeah, I try not to think about it.
Nikki: But they do know things about you, and when it works for them to share it with you, it'll be a whole ‘nother kettle of fish, as it were. You know, you'll be sitting having--well, a little I-I drink champagne now--and I'll be sitting there having you know, or I don't know if you drink beer or what, and your son or daughter will say, you know well, I remember, you know, when and you think you never thought that they saw you or that they paid attention. I remember when you did just that and the other. And there's a man, Robert Hayden. Mr. Hayden was one of America's-is one of America's great poets, of course, he's-he's gone. But he wrote an incredibly beautiful poem, and my mother loved it also. It's called Those Winter Sundays. And the first line says, Sunday too Father arose.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Nikki: And-and what the poem is dealing with is that his dad on Sunday got up, started the fire, shined his shoes-- shine his shoes because you had to go to church--and it took Bob the longest to realize that is love.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
[BREAK/MIDROLL]
[MUSIC FADES IN]
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Max: If your kids know things about you that you wouldn't realize, what are your students know about you?
Nikki: I have no idea. You know, we had a tragedy at Virginia Tech and 32 students were murdered. And Virginia has a carry law. It still does, that you can carry. And I said to my students that, uh, I'm against the carry law. And so I had some students because, you know, they come from all over and it's just like, well, we have to have if somebody had had a gun, maybe some of those lives could have been saved. And I said, “or and-and this is my solution to it. If I had my way, I would have all of you strip. So before you come into my class, you would strip naked and then you'd come in and I'd be naked so that you can make sure I wasn't killing you and we'd have class.” And they said, “oh Nikki we can't do that.” And I said, “Well, I hate to tell you this, but I-I know you've either seen or felt everything” [both laughs] one of there's no secrets. And the boys just went, oh, no, she didn't say that. But, uh, I don't- I don't know what they probably say, oh, this crazy fool. But I'm trying to get them to understand what are we afraid of and why. Because there's nothing to be afraid of. So you don't need to carry a gun, you know. I'd rather be naked than carry a gun.
Max: What else are you trying to get them to understand?
Nikki: That it's their life. And they have to do something else with it, because this...this just isn't working, you know. No matter what, um, or how we look at it, this is not working. I have ruined several things for my students. I have ruined Thanksgiving for my students because we have a turkey who's been murdered and we have a turkey who has been, what is called, pardoned.
Max: You get-you guys get the pardoned turkeys?
Nikki: Yeah.
Max: Oh, I didn't know that.
Nikki: Yeah, a lot of people don't, but we do and the turkey who was, what is called, pardoned, has to ask himself--or herself, rather, it's a turkey--why am I going to be without my friend? What is it about me that made me not be the chosen one. I would rather be chosen than to have to go back. The turkey feels bad because everything cries. We could go out right now and cut a limb off a tree. We would call it sap. I would call it tears.
Max: Mm hmm.
Nikki: And so I'm just trying to get them to think, what are we hurting and why are we hurting it? I've ruined Thanksgiving for them. I-I truly have [both laughs]. They won't eat turkey anymore. They hate Turkey [laughs]
Max: What else have you ruined besides, uh, Thanksgiving and maple syrup?
Nikki: I come as close as I can to ruining Christmas. Such a bad idea that you're running around saying, what will Santa Claus give me when the true joy of that holiday should be and what can I give. Who can I share something with? What kind of life is it that you have to spend half of the year trying to figure out what you want for Christmas, when the question should be, what can you give? Who can you give something to? How can you share? Because it's a much better feeling. You are so much better for what you give than what you take. And once they can understand that, they're going to be good writers too.
Max: Did you know that when you were your student's age?
Nikki: My goodness. We talked about watching, can't you see? Don't you see loneliness? Don't you see people who are cold? Don't you see a dog that's missing a leg 'cause some fool ran over him? What are you doing with your eyes if you're not looking?
Max: Have you always just seen that?
Nikki: I don't know, I just don't remember not seeing it. I wrote a poem once because, um, I was here at home doing whatever one does and, uh, a spider was there, you know, just running up the wall or something. And, without thinking, I killed the spider and I wrote the poem it's called Allowables. And I was incredibly embarrassed about myself. I thought, ' Oh my God, why did I kill the spider?' And it was a reflex. And I thought, 'Oh, no. You're not allowed to kill something because you're afraid of it,' And I did write the poem. I couldn't un-kill the spider, but I don't do that 'cause it was just it was-just a regular spider. It wasn't a black widow or, you know, one of the brown spid-something that would hurt you. It was just a regular spider. And I thought, I ought to be ashamed and I am there's nothing I can do about it, but I am. And, you know, you make mistakes, you do. You make mistakes, you do things that are embarrassing and you do things that are contradictory that you wish you hadn't done.
Max: Do you see yourself in your students?
Nikki: You know, it's a different generation and I say that to them. We live in different times and that has to be acknowledged. And when my generation was 20, we were breaking down segregation. Their generation at 20 have another world to look at, they have other responsibilities. And I think that my job as the older generation, as it were, I think that my job is to stay out of their way.
Max: Why?
Nikki: Look at our generation. Roy Wilkins, president of the NAACP, did not care for Martin Luther King. NAACP did not like it. Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee with SNCC. SNCC didn't really care that much for the Black Panthers because they were saying, “Oh, we're not sure that-that they know what they were doing. Carrying guns is not a good idea.” And you finally say, well, now, let the next generation do what it wants to do.
Max: But do you disagree with the...with what the next generation is doing?
Nikki: No! I love--oh Black Lives Matter I think there are incredible. I think those women are incredible and I think that they are incredibly smart.
Max: So if you agree with it, if you believe in it, why can't you be a part of it? Why do you have to get out of the way?
Nikki: Getting out of the way is a part of it. That is so clear to me because--what's his name-- Don Lemon. Uh, when they had the-the march about George Floyd, Lemon on CNN was saying, you know, “Where are the celebrities?” Well, I'm not that kind of celebrity. But I thought it was a stupid thing for Don Lemon to say, because if celebrities had started to lead that march, then what happened to the people who-who put that march together? Then they feel nobody cared about the issues. They only care about who it is that's in front of it. I think that our job is to do what we're doing. We are supportive. And I know many, many of us are supportive. We are more or less quietly, in fact, doing whatever we can. But they started the movement and they know what they want. So our job is just to make sure that we're not interfering with what they want.
Max: Not making it about yourself.
Nikki: Yeah. I think that the young men and women today are doing an incredibly wonderful job. I'm proud of them. And I'm not having any discussions with Jesus about how long I'm going to live, but I hope that I do live long enough to see more and more of what they are-are doing become, uh, positive.
Max: What do you think you're like 25 year old self would think about, um, 2020 Nikki Giovanni.
Nikki: I think that she would know, yeah, you know, good...good work. [laughs] Now go, uh, sit out with the fish and let other people--I did my job. My 25 year old self did what 25 year olds do. I was a friend of and went to college with John Lewis. John was wonderful-a wonderful man. And so we who believed with John are going to walk with John. We're going to do what we can, but we're not 25 now. And that's the main thing. You're asking one kind of question, but the main thing is we are not 25. We are fortunate enough to be 77.
Max: You recommend being 77?
Nikki: I recommend 77. And I recommend not thinking that we're the only people--my generation is the only generation--that knows what to do. We don't. We did what we knew what to do and now it's somebody else. We got rid of segregation. There's no white room, colored room. There's none of that. That's gone. But we also know when the young--I say the youngsters, when the next generation--understands that a non-segregated world does not mean a nonracist world. So somehow they're going to have to deal with it. I'm on their side. I'm with the people, but the people are going to have to figure out how to do that because we did what we knew how to do.
Max: Was there a moment for you at some point where you thought, 'OK, this is it. Now it's time for me to take a step back. I've done my job,' Was there some clear moment where that happened for you?
Nikki: No. No. The moments and they continue to be moments was this is the best I can do today.
Max: Help me understand how you make that transition, not in sort of one fell swoop, but day to day.
Nikki: You just keep doing what you can do. So if somebody says, for example, to me, “Nikki, we're going to have a march and we need you to lead the march” then I would say absolutely not. I've got a bad back. Are you kidding? How can I lead a march? If you're saying, what can I do? I can help raise some money. I can even talk to you. I continue to write books, but I haven't stopped doing anything. I'm just not trying to do what I used to do.
Max: So it's not like it's not like, um, your job is done. It's like your job has changed.
Nikki: Well, everybody's job changes. That's the nature of being a human being. You grow old and it's a good idea.
Max: Yeah. I read this quote. I'm hoping maybe you can-you can help me understand it. You said, um, “I have a different story to tell at 75 than at 25. Don't read your early poetry. If you do, you won't want to contradict yourself. And if you don't contradict yourself, you didn't learn anything” So if your job is changed, but the work is the same, what have you learned, how have you contradicted yourself?
Nikki: Oh, a lot! If I read my poetry [laughs]. If I go back to my first and second book and to my recent book, I would see that some of the things I was suggesting and some of the things that I said I wanted have definitely changed. Uh, older people want different things. [laughs] And, uh, I think it's important to keep in mind that you're going to look at the world differently. And you are. I wrote a poem in which I really love because I dedicated it to my grandparents. After dinner, I would wash the dishes--I lived with them for the last couple of years of their life--and they would sit on the porch. And I was always being amazed that they would sit on the porch and they would sit silently together. Grandmother would smoke and Grandpapa would just be there. And I wonder, well, why don't they talk? Why aren't they saying anything? Why aren't they doing anything? And what I learned in my 70s is that their love allowed them the silence. And I just think that's so fabulous that, uh, they could do that. I wouldn't have done it at 25. You do things you like. Oh, we have to go out we have to do this. And now you I sit silently, [laughs] I'm old enough to know that now because I love someone.
Max: So that's one of the things that you noticed as a young person and now see differently as an older person?
Nikki: It's something that I now understand as an old person. And of course, I love bats. I have a bat named after me and I like being on my--my deck. And just sitting there having a glass of champagne, which is it's cheap, but it's champagne. And I like for it to get dark because when it gets dark, the bats come out and you can hear the bats more than you can see them. And so you just sitting there in the silence with your person taking it in. I don't know how to-- I would never have thought of that 50 years ago. I would never have, for lack of a better word, wasted my time. But it's not a waste of time. It's what you share with someone you love. Nobody 25 years old is going to understand that. They may remember that at one point “Oh, yeah! Didn't Nikki say that.” And they'll find themselves sitting on a deck.
Max: Can I ask you about love?
Nikki: You can ask.
Max: You talked to, um, Jess and Janelle, the producers, before you and I talked, and you said this thing at the very end of your conversation with them, which has been rattling around in my head. You said, 'I'm not scared of getting older because I know this; I was born. I'm going to die. And the only thing I have to do in the middle is find someone to love'.
Nikki: Yeah.
Max: Is that really the only goal, find someone to love? After all that you've done and all that you've accomplished?
Nikki: What-what do you want me to do?
Max: Well, I-I don't want you to do anything, I'm trying to figure out how you found that simplicity.
Nikki: I don't think that simple. [laughs] I don't know who you've been in love with, but I-I can give you a couple of people I have. [both laugh] And if it's simple to you [laughs]. I don't think there's anything simple about falling in love, no matter what. I watch my grandmother because that's a long story that I'm not going to go through, but grandpapa adored grandmother and grandmother loved him. They-they both they loved each other. And of course, there were things that, um, she loved and I'll never get over it. But she loved, uh, pineapple. And he would do the grocery shopping. So he would come home in-season and he would be just coming up the steps. And he couldn't-he could never wait. It would be Louvenia--which is her name-- 'Louvenia, they had pineapple,' and she would just oh, she would just light up. You know, I'll never forget that, 'Louvenia they had pineapple,'
Max: What's your version of that? What's your pineapple?
Nikki: None of your business.
Max: [laughs] That's fair, that's fair. What your pineapple is and what you got kicked out of Fiske for those things you're not going to tell me.
Nikki: You got to have some of your life for yourself. [laughs]
Max: I think I can understand that. So that’s 77 year old Nikki’s goal, to find someone to love. What’s 25 year old Nikki’s goal?
Nikki: I think that our goals are pretty much, um, the same. I'm not greedy. I am comfortable with what I do. I'm honest, and I like that about me, I have integrity. I have known, uh, so many really great women and one of the things that have given me the friendships that I had when I was 25 or going into 30 is that the people that I knew knew that I wasn't going to use them, so they could talk to me about anything 'cause it wasn't going to go any further. And I like that about me and I still like it about me. I don't have to say that, you know, I was well, because I knew Rosa Parks-- Mrs. Parks--and I could talk and what she had to say wasn't going any further because, uh, I'm not trying to use her. So many people try to use you. Toni Morrison was a good friend and I really loved Toni. And, uh, we could sit and Toni, speaking of silence, Toni and I could sit and be quiet, have a sandwich [laughs] and not bother each other. I don't know how else to say that. Uh, I knew I just knew a lot of people that could count on me, and I think still so.
Max: So many of those women that you made your life with-made your intellectual life with are gone now.
Nikki: Yeah.
Max: How does that feel?
Nikki: It's lonely sometimes. I find myself reaching for my phone to call Toni because we talk more on the phone than we did in person. And I realize I'm reaching for Toni and, uh, she's not going to answer. But, uh, when the African American Museum opened and I went for the what is called the legacy opening because the president was going to come, Barack Obama, and I don't know if you know the museum, but it goes around and around like that. And when we got to that third level,um, I should have remembered, but I didn't, you can turn left and tell your story. Which I think more white people need to be doing that also, but the black women were lined up to tell their story about what they knew about the history of America. Or you could to turn right and I turn right. And there I was. It was a photograph of me. And without thinking, I just looked back to my left say, 'See grandmother, I did my job,' and... I'll never forget that. I was looking for grandmother.
Max: How did that feel?
Nikki: I tried not to, uh, cry.
Max: Why?
Nikki: Because a whole bunch of people looking at me and it's none of their business.
Max: [laughs] I feel like you get to cry if you've done your job.
Nikki: It's easier for you to say than to have a whole bunch of people looking at you.
Max: I'm sure that's true. I'm sure that's true. What do you think your grandmother would think of where you are now?
Nikki: Think she'd be...I think she'd be incredibly pleased. And I think that she also would laugh at me that I can't make biscuits [laughs]
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Nikki: But I think she'd be pleased about everything else.
CREDITS
Max: 70 Over 70 is a production of Pineapple Street Studios and it’s produced by Jess Hackel.
Our associate producer is Janelle Anderson. Our editors are Maddy Sprung-Keyser and Joel Lovell. Research and additional reporting by Charley Locke.
Our mixers are Raj Makhija and Elliott Adler. And Jenna Weiss-Berman and I are the executive producers.
Our theme song is Like a Dream, by Francis and the Lights, and the music you’re listening to now is by Beverly Glenn Copeland, who is 77 years old. Original music by Terence Bernardo. Additional music by Noble Kids, and music licensing by Dan Knishkowy.
Our cover art is by Maria Kalman, who’s 72 and our episode art is by Lynn Staley, she’s 73 and she’s also my mom.
Thank you, Howard Kakita. and thank you, Nikki Giovanni.
I'm Max Linsky. Thanks for listening.
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