Greg O’Brien shares how a terminal diagnosis revealed his purpose in life. Then Max talks with Judith Light about how her career opened up when she started to focus on what she could give rather than what she could get, and how that transformation has helped her think about death in a “real, conscious and alive way.”
Do you know someone who should be on 70 over 70? We’re looking for all types of stories and people to feature at the top of the show. To nominate yourself or someone else, email 70over70@pineapple.fm or call 302-659-7070 and tell us your name, age, where you’re from and your “70 over 70 story.” Our only rule: to be on the show, you have to be over 70.
transcription
[PRE-ROLL]
[OPENING MONTAGE]
Madeleine Albright: I know this program is 70 Over 70, but I really wish I were younger. I wish I was 70…but, I am ready!
[THEME MUSIC STARTS]
William: I’m 72 years old.
Paula: I’m 75, miraculously enough.
Sandy: I am 83 years old.
Betty: I am 88 years old.
James: You know, I’m here at 92.
Lucia: I’ll be 94 in May.
Donalda: I’m 101 years old.
Greg O'Brien: My name is Greg O'Brien, I’m 71, and I live on outer Cape Cod.
[THEME MUSIC FADES OUT]
Greg: I've learned in life that you have to live with purpose. Otherwise, you start to perish.
[MUSIC STARTS}
Greg: Maybe the best way is to start in the beginning with the story – um, Alzheimer's took my mother, my father, so I became the family caregiver for both of them. As I was caring for them, I had noticed symptoms in me that were the same as what they were dealing with; short term memory, loss of place, seeing things that weren't there, rage, change in personality, withdrawing and as a reporter, I do a lot of investigative reporting and just writing about life itself, I found that I couldn’t multitask and I couldn't do my job. And I was frankly scared shitless.
There was a time during this period where I was, uh, driving on a familiar backroads on Cape Cod, and I got lost. And, um, I came up to an intersection and there was this hexagonal sign, red sign with white border. My brain in the moment wouldn't tell me what it was and I drove through it. Nobody hit me. I didn't hit anyone, but there were cars nearby who immediately leaned on their horns for like a minute, and I pulled the car over and I said, “OK, that's it.”
[MUSIC CONTINUES]
Greg: Make a long story short. I-I took the clinical tests and flunked them and then, uh, I had the brain scans and speck scans and all of that which, uh, revealed I had Alzheimers.
I was in denial. I didn't want to think about it, I didn't want to talk about it, I didn't want to focus on it. And because I was so focused on my parents, I think I was ignoring the symptoms.
[MUSIC STOPS]
Greg: I got a call from the nurse one night--and this was right at the end for my mom--and she said. “You need to come down. She's frightened.” And so I went down to the nursing home. She was asleep. And I woke her up and I said, “Mom, I'm sorry to wake you up. I heard you were scared. I want you to know that I'm here.” And she said, plain as day, “No, Greg. I'm glad you're here.” And it was the first time in eight months that she could use my name. And she looked at me and said, “Greg, you need to write about this.”
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Greg: And I sat back down, held her hand, and I stayed there until she fell asleep. I kissed her on the forehead, and she never woke up again. At that point, I said, “Dammit, we're going to start to talk about this demon and I'm going to write it.” And I don't give a shit how painful it is for me, how embarrassing it is for me. I just felt I needed to do my job, and my job was to tell this story.
[MUSIC CONTINUES]
Greg: My purpose is to educate those who are dealing with the disease using my family as a window to others, so others can see that there is hope, there is strategies, but it's not as easy as someone might think, “Oh, I'm listening to him, he sounds very good.” Fuck that.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Greg: This fight is kicking the shit out of me. My body is breaking down. 60 percent of my short term memory can be gone in 30 seconds now. I, uh, also have macular degeneration. I've lost about 35 percent of my sight in the last couple of years. Although it's difficult in fighting a demon like this, you have to try to overcome the pain and the disconnects with purpose and faith.
So I learned from my mom in her Alzheimer's, how to write and speak from the heart when the mind fails…
[THEME MUSIC FADES IN]
Greg: and I can't wait to get to heaven and have my mom say to me, “Good job, Greg. Good job.”
Max Linsky: That was Greg O'Brien, and from Pineapple Street Studios, this is 70 Over 70, a show about making the most of the time we have left. I'm Max Linsky.
[THEME MUSIC CONTINUES]
Max: My guest this week is Judith Light.
Judith is an actress. You might remember her from Who's the Boss — a show I watched over and over again as a kid, or, more recently, from her role as Shelly on Transparent.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Max: These days she’s as busy as she’s ever been — she was in the latest edition of Ryan Murphy’s American Crime Story, she will play the legendary publisher Blanche Knopf in an upcoming HBO Max series, and she’s also in Tick Tick Boom, the new musical directed by Lin Manuel Miranda, which hit Netflix this month.
Looking back on Judith's career and at the roles she played, there isn’t some totally obvious throughline to me. She hasn’t been typecast, there isn’t one genre she’s known for. And I wondered if it all feels linear to her, whether every choice has been part of some larger plan I just couldn’t see from studying her IMDB.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Max: As soon as we met though, even before we had started the interview, she made it clear that that’s not how she thinks about decisions, either in her work or in her life. In fact, she doesn’t think about them as decisions at all.
Judith Light is 72 years old.
INTERVIEW
Max: Before we start, can I give you like a-like a 30-second spiel about why I'm here, though?
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Judith: Honey, it's your world, I'm just in it.
Max: [laughs] It's th- it's actually the exact opposite, but there's really two reasons I'm doing the show. I just turned 40 and feel like I'm in a bit of a crossroadsy-place isn't quite right, but like in a what am I going to make of this life I got kind of place and really have been thinking a lot about what it means to live well.
Judith: So you're-you're having an existential crisis, in a way.
Max: Well, I feel like I've been having an existential crisis since I was, like, 12.
Judith: Well, that's because you're smart. Everybody should have one. That's what wakes you up.
Max: Yeah. Maybe what happened is that I admitted that I've been having it the whole time. And then the second thing is that in the pandemic, my dad turned 81, so the other thing that's going on for me with the show is trying to understand where he's at in his life a little bit better and how to--how to be a good kid to him right now.
Judith: I'm only interested in those questions. I'm not interested in the bullshit. I really am not.
Max: Do you have any questions for me before we start?
Judith: I don't. Oh yes! Do you have children?
Max: Yes, I have a seven year old. His name is Guy and a three year old, and her name is Noa.
Judith: OK, there is something also within all of this that is compelling you, whether it's conscious or not, to make sure that that lives in them.
Max: Yes.
Judith: So I think also talking about ancestral relationships is really important. And you're thinking about your father and you're also thinking about your children. And that's a really, I think, a potent part of this dialog that you and I are going to have of how we carry that through.
Max: Yeah.
Judith: My husband and I don't have any children. I have a lot of young friends and they have young children, and I see how it's people who have children that want to speak to people who are more mature to talk about their lives and not to lose those lives. So I wanted to just sort of hold that as a part of the context of this conversation.
Max: Yeah, I think, um, that's in no way not true. That's all there.
Judith: I feel that from you.
Max: It's a weird thing. This is one thing I'll say about the kids and then we could start, is it's a weird thing to know that I'm going to mess them up in some way, but to not know what it is.
Judith: Of course you will.
Max: I know! I just have this vision of them at like 18, sitting around drinking with their friends and just being like, “My fucking dad. You know, he always did this thing.”
Judith: Yeah.
Max: And I just don’t know what the thing is! It's very, uh, it freaks me out.
Judith: Good! [Max laughs] That's wonderful. That's healthy. You do realize that we don't know anything in life. A very heightened state of living is in the not knowing and making peace with that because you can't know. If you live now, right now, this minute, you have no problem. So making friends with the not knowing and just giving it space, giving it allowance, giving it room. You will fuck them up. That is the human condition. OK, so what?
Max: So what, right.
Judith: Alright. It'll show up when it shows up and you'll figure it out. You'll say to them, “You know what? I didn't realize that I was doing that” And if you can hear them, not listen to them. If you can hear them and if you can look at them and say, “this being has come into my life to enable me to learn,” I will be a perfect parent.
Max: Hmm.
Judith: That's what I would say, I can see you thinking. It's so gorgeous to watch you thinking and feeling.
Max: You're giving me a lot to think about.
Judith: You know what it is, right, don't you? What each of them has come to you for?
Max: Yes and -- you know what I mean, like, I do. And then also, it's something different every day.
Judith: Yeah.
Max: You know?
Judith: Yeah, but that's the adventure. And it's scary. It's scary! It's a fucking roller coaster, right?
Max: Yeah, it's all fucking terrifying. Every single part of it is terrifying, but it is also right that like, there are odds on the board right now for the thing that they'll be saying when they're 18 being like, “my dad was always so worried about fucking us up.” There's no benefit in the worrying.
Judith: And when they're 40, they'll come to you and say, “Look how great we turned out. You didn't have to worry.” You can't know now, and you won't know until it actually happens.
Max: Well, I think that's---yeah, we should-we should just start the thing because--
Judith: No, this is the thing. This is it!
Max: This is the thing. Like, I just got to-- Jess is going to kill me if I don't get a clean hello with you.
Judith: Hello. We've been recording and this is what I do. How are you?
Max: Oh, I'm-I'm great.
Judith: Good! Me too.
Max: I'm really happy to be here with you.
Judith: Me too you. Me too you.
Max: What do you wanna talk about?
Judith: Well, first we talked about your children about how to relate from feelings, from the feelings state and not just from what you think about. And I want to talk about the programed mind, the mind that gets programed by the world we live in, the culture, our parents. So when you think about the programmed mind, it's the mind that makes decisions. Not choices. Language is also very essential to me, the words we choose.
Max: I've heard you talk about this distinction between decision and choice before.
Judith: Yeah.
Max: What does that mean? Can you explain that before-before you go down this line?
Judith: When you make a decision, it's locked in. It's hard and fast. Making a choice, to me, the word has a level of flexibility within it. And it creates curiosity, which is the father, mother of creativity, curiosity. Does that make sense?
Max: Yes, there's something about the nature of a decision that is closed and about a choice that is open.
Judith: That's right. And that's so for me, that may not be so for other people. The way we think is often tainted by past ideas, past hurts, pain, loss, upset. There is another space from which to process. And some of that has to do with your intellect, and your heart and your gut -- your intuition. When you listen and combine those places, you're outside of the box of the programed mind and you make a choice about something. What's essential is to give space to everything, to just take a breath and give space.
Max: Part of what I hear in what you're saying about that program in mind also is thinking that you've got it figured out.
Judith: Bingo, bingo!
Max: The only way you can make a decision is if you believe yourself to be right. If your programing has set you up to think, there's only one way to look at it, and it's the way that you're looking at it.
Judith: That is articulated perfectly. If I think I'm right about something, I don't allow any space for you to come in to have impact on me and to transform me in some way, not change me, but really transform me.
Max: Well, I really want to talk about how to get there, because I think one of the, um, one of the aspects of my program--
Judith: You want an answer, don't you, bubby?
Max: I can feel this urge to like take the, uh, express bus to having figured it all out, you know, even though I know the bus line isn't running.
Judith: I do, too! [Max laughs] I do, too. You have to be now. You can't get on the bus. You don't know where you are. You can get on an express bus without knowing where you are because you have to be where you are. And I have to sit on myself all the time because I am just like you. I want the answer. I want it handled. I want to know what to do. I used to say to my therapist all the time, Well, tell me what to do! [Max laughs] Life isn't about doing, it is about being. Because it's only in being that you can become. Here's the thing. Here's one of the things that you were talking about. What does it mean to be this age I am now? And what does it mean to be your age? One of the things that happened when I turned 70-- and somebody said to me, “It's going to be different for you when you turn 70,” and I said, “Oh, you're full of shit. It's not going to be fine, it's gonna be the same.” [Max laughs] It's different.
Max: Help me understand what felt different about turning 70.
Judith: What happened at 70 -- I started thinking about death all the time. And not in a morbid way, but in a real and conscious and alive way.
Max: What is thinking about death in an alive way look like?
Judith: When I have a thought about it, and the thought is, “Oh no, I won't be here?”-- you know the thought from the ego, from the programed mind. I stop, I take a breath and I say, “That's right, that's true. How will you be today out of knowing that?” I used to push it away. I used to shove it down. The ego is so powerful that we don't want to believe that we'll be gone from here one day, that we will become dust. And, um, you know, the book by the Pulitzer Prize winning author Ernest Becker, who wrote Denial of Death. He says if we actually lived knowing this fact consciously, that we would live differently. We would bring something different to the world than what we might ordinarily bring-- look at you! You want to ask me something, go!
Max: No, no, no! I'm really just trying to listen to what you're talking about and then think about how it relates to this thing that I'm doing, because I think on some level, I understand that. Like, I believe that to be true. I think that like,u h, I'm not totally up on the fact that I'm gonna be dust.
Judith: I know! None of us are! [Max laughs] It has become the adventure, the work for me.
Max: Yeah.
Judith: And it scares the shit out of me. Some days I just can't get past it. I just can't get past this. It’s like, that's not going to happen. And then how is it going to happen? What's it going to look like? Is there going to be pain and suffering? Is there going to be--you know, it's all those questions that arise. I'm open to the inquiry of it. I'm open to the curiosity of it. I have been for many, many years open to the idea of reincarnation. I don't know whether it's true. I'm open to the possibility that it's true. And what would that life look like? What is life after death? I mean, I have all those books. You can read that stuff, but unless you really incorporate that as a truth, then you have the possibility of shifting the way that you live. Does that make sense to you?
Max: Yeah, that does make sense. And what incorporating that looks like for you is when those thoughts come up, taking a breath and saying, “What am I going to do with that today?”
Judith: How am I going to be today? Not what am I going to do with that necessarily. See in life, there's a way in which we have things a bit backwards, and I have had that for many, many years. We think if we do enough stuff. If we read enough books--
Max: Yeah.
Judith: If you read Victor Frankl and Man's Search for Meaning and you look at the kind of therapy that he has created with logotherapy and you, you know, think you have something, the opposite is true. You have to start from your being, which means stopping and breathing. Be that first, be there first. But if you be first, you will do it in a different framework. And then you will have it. Like I knew, I wanted to be an actor. I knew that was in my DNA somewhere. Then I did all the things that were the classes and the voice lessons and piano lessons and the dancing lessons and the tap and the ballet and the-- all that stuff. And then I go to Carnegie Mellon University and then I go to repertory theater and then I go to Broadway and then I go to do television and then I do all the doingness of the acting.
Max: Yeah, you were doing it all.
Judith: Yeah.
Max: Well, help me understand when you figure that out for yourself or how this happened for you, as it relates to work, because my understanding is that that was not always your approach to your work.
Judith: Not even close. It was probably right after I had graduated from Carnegie Mellon University and then had been in repertory theater. It was right after that that I came to New York and I had had, you know, a lot of success and a lot of those areas, but when I got to New York, I thought, “Ah the world's my oyster, I'm going to get this, I'm going to get that. I'm going to get to get that. I'm going to be fabulous. I'm going to be famous, I'm going to do Broadway, I'm going to do feature films, and that's all I'm going to do. I'm never going to do a soap opera. I'm never going to do a sitcom.” I mean I--it was like, you can hear how closed that was.
Max: Yeah.
Judith: How shut down all of that was it was like, it's got to be this picture or nothing. OK, universe?
Max: Everything in the get column.
Judith: That's right. Everything in the get column and where's my fuckin ice cream? [Max laughs] You know, it was a recipe for me for absolute misery. I was so unhappy. My unemployment was running out. I was broke. There were so many things that happened all at the same time, and it was the greatest gift that could have happened. There was something that was aching inside of me that was telling me that it was a value for me to live in a different way than the way that I was living. And all I knew that there was this voice that I was listening to that was telling me that there was another way to live. I needed to be listening to that voice. I knew that my pictures about what I should have and the way that life should be and that's in quotes should be -- for me, was demanding what I deserved, what I should have. And I began to see and hear that voice that kept saying, if you keep going, you will have regretted your life. I had a kind of breaking open that I realized I wasn't living awake, that I wasn't living in an adventure.
Max: Mhmm.
Judith: And I would frame up a choice that I would make against the idea that how would I feel on my deathbed--would I have regret? And I would make a different choice based on seeing myself in the future. And I started, really, to realize that, and it was the greatest thing that could have happened for me in terms of my own work on myself and my own transformation was that life wasn't about what you get. Life is about what you give.
Max: Yeah.
Judith: So I began to be curious. I began this inquiry of what is my life and how can I make a difference--how can I give? And I began to be grateful, not just in the things that I have, but. For another day of life. This is it. This is all you have. You don't have anything else. And I stopped having to have answers. And while in it it was really difficult, but seeing it and holding it in the context of my growth. Context is the thing, the framework within which you hold something, and all of a sudden my context became about the kind of life I was going to have and the kind of person I was going to be, rather than whether I was going to have the career that I thought I was owed.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Judith: That's a shift in context. And yes, that transformed everything.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
[[MIDROLL]]
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Max: I wanna get back to that transformation you were just talking about, which happened pretty young for you.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Judith: Yeah.
Max: How did that impact the roles that you chose to play?
Judith: I-I started caring more about someone else than I did about myself. I-I wanted to know about the characters that I was given the the blessing to play, and I knew that I could find some of their inner workings off the page of a brilliant script and put it through my own filter and see what I could find in myself so that I would give a performance-- so that I would give a performance that became operative to me. It wasn't about, ‘Look at me.’ It wasn't about, ‘let me show you, let me prove to you how good I am or what I can do’. It's who is this person that you can see and might be able to identify with? And so as time went on, the performances became deeper and more resonant.
Max: It's not like this is like a switch that gets flipped, like, uh, you're like a struggling actress in New York, and then all of a sudden you realize like, ‘Oh, but what if I just didn't think about myself and what I could get all the time? What if I thought about giving?’ And then from there on, it's just gravy?
Judith: No, honey. No. [Max laughs] It wasn't like, OK, I'll make sure that I give to people, so then in the back of my mind, it's like, OK, OK, universe, now what are you going to give me? So now you're going to give me the feature films and the Broadway shows!” No no, that's manipulating the shit out of the universe. That's not what this is about and there is progression over time. So like, I would never in a million years, having been the other person I was on the other side of this experience that I had, I wouldn't have never taken One Life to Live. I never would have done the soap opera.
Max: Right.
Judith: I would have said, “Oh, get that shit away from me. I said I never was going to do that. I'm not going to do it.”
Max: Right. That didn't fit with what you were supposed to get.
Judith: And the picture. You know, we all live from our pictures. Well, the picture is a two dimensional picture in a magazine. A three dimensional living of life is something different. I know for some people the picture is held onto as either a dream or a wish or a goal. And if it's supportive in that way, but not locked in and has fluidity to it, then by all means yes, use it. But if it's your only methodology for getting where you want to go, that didn't work for me, that made me miserable. I wanted my life to be fleshed out. I didn't want anything to be messy. I wanted it all to be clean. And life is messy. It's stuff we don't know.
Max: Do you have any version of a picture now?
Judith: I would say it's more curiosity about what will come my way. And how I relate to those things that come my way. I've just played a woman who very few people know about, who was the most famous woman in publishing.
Max: Oh yeah, Blanche.
Judith: That's right! Blanche Knopf. And it was like in my experience, I read about her and I said, “Yes, this is a resounding yes. I have to do this.”
Max: Why?
Judith: I want people to know about her. I want people to know that there was a woman who got married to a man, Alfred Knopf, thinking that they were going to have a partnership and that she was going to be as prominent in the creation of Knopf Publishing as he was. And that did not happen. He pushed her to the side, and yet she stormed the best deal. This woman was the one who brought in Simone de Beauvoir. She was the one that brought in Camus. She was the one that got Anne Frank's diaries. She was the one. So for me, it was about educating myself about her and then subsequently giving that performance and bringing her to life within the story of the support of people knowing more about Julia Child. So there are women that have been cast in the shadows that I want to bring light to them--to show them. So I choose from a place of that. Or sometimes I'll get something and I'll say this is so daunting and I'm so frightened of it, but I realize that underneath there's a yes, I know there's a yes.
Max: What scares you?
Judith: I almost answered glibly...I wanted to say everything.
Max: [laughs] But you and I both know that's not true.
Judith: No, no. My work on myself is a paradox. I am frightened of so many things. And by knowing that and staying aware of that. I bring it to the service, I bring it conscience, I-I think that's what enlightenment is. You bring something that's in the dark to the light. And I look at it and I ask myself these questions and I say, am I truly frightened, or am I excited? Like on an opening night, somebody once said to me, “Look, you may have butterflies in your stomach, just get them to fly in formation.” If I can look at that and if I can say, “what was I frightened of’. I was frightened that I wouldn't be good enough. And I look at it and I start investigating it, saying that conscience makes me keep looking at the way I will live my life.
Max: Do the roles that you’re playing now, do those still scare and excite you? Like you’re in Tick Tick Boom, which just came out.
Judith: Right.
Max: And you were just in Ryan Murphy’s impeachment series.
Judith: Yeah.
Max: So what was scary or exciting about those roles? What did they unlock for you?
Judith: Yeah, well, this is the third thing that I've done with Ryan Murphy and his team and Impeachment, this American crime story is told from a different context, and we've been talking about context. This is from the point of view of the women.
Max: Right.
Judith: The women were basically shoved in the shadows during that whole time. It was all about the men and the character that I play in this was a woman who had had a lot of her own challenges in her own demons and swept in to become Paula Jones' spokesperson, unofficial spokesperson. She just felt really strongly about it, and she just moved in and she started taking over. And there's something very curious to me about a person who comes across as someone who is ‘I don't care what people think about me, I'm going to do this anyway because I know it's the right thing to do’. And so somewhat comes across as self-serving and underneath there's something else going on, and I'm always curious about layers like that. And for Tick Tick Boom, I got to work with my friend Lin-Manuel Miranda. And so Lin asked me to play this part in this movie of Tick Tick Boom and I had known about the play and I known about Jonathan Larson, who created this play, and he died when he was 35. He had an aortic aneurysm.
Max: Yeah.
Judith: And this was about time. And what does time do to us and how we use it or don't use it? And it was also takes place during the AIDS pandemic, so it had a lot of resonance for me about being more mature now. What does it mean to be older? And, you know, having lost a lot of my friends during the AIDS pandemic, what it means to live with death on your shoulder.
Max: It's so interesting to me hearing you talk about these because I think I would've just assumed that you were making these choices based on the characters, but it's-it's almost like you're attracted to the ideas.
Judith: That's right. That's right. Both are true. Because in giving a performance and creating a character that will illuminate something for someone and entertain them at the same time--
Max: Right.
Judith: It's the story that the storyteller is telling. And I love the framework and I love the context. And within that context, there are these characters that I get to portray and come alive and give out to an audience.
Max: Do you think at all about how long you can keep this pace up? Does that enter into your equation at all?
Judith: In what way? Do you mean, like with my age or my energy, or my health or my stamina?
Max: Yeah, maybe like all those things combined.
Judith: Well, that's what the meditation, the yoga, the pilates, the working out is for. I mean, do I notice things that are different physically? Sure. And I look at it and I go, “Oh no, oh no! Oh shit.” And I go, “OK, so you want to, like, live there? Or do you want to live in look at all the things that are working. Look at all the energy you have” Somebody asked me a question about how long it takes me to recover from the job, and I'm like, “What do you mean, recover?” We don't recover from a job, the job has been itself vital, fabulous. OK, now we jump back into life. I don't put a timeframe on when I'll stop working. I am aware of it. I am awake to it. I face the reality of it, but I don't use it as a bat to beat the shit out of myself. You know what I mean? And say, “Oh, that's not going to happen because you know I'm older. Oh my god.” No, I don't live there. I will look at something in relation to being on my deathbed and saying, “Did I live the life I chose to live? Was I kind, was I grateful? Was I conscious? Was I aware? Did I give?”
I remember when my mother was dying, my mother and I had a very complicated relationship. And somebody said to me, “If you are complete with your parents before they die, you will miss them. But you will have very little, if any, grief.” You know that roiling kind of grief? And the last five months of my mother's life, we told each other everything. We shared everything with each other. I told her all the things that had been hurtful and painful. I'll never forget the moment she looked me, and she said, “You've turned out to be the most wonderful person,” and it was so affirming, not because I needed her to say that, but because she had the space, to be able to say it.
Max: Mhmm.
Judith: And I said, “I am that out of my relationship with you,” and I forgave her for the things that she did. And she forgave me for the things I did. And it was out of that understanding of the human condition that we would fuck each other up and we would hurt each other, and we would make these glaring mistakes that could be healed in this way of relating. And you know, we were talking before about, you know, parents and talking to them about dying and stuff. And I know I was shooting a show called Ugly Betty at the time, and they were so great because I would get on a plane from New York, fly down to Florida, where she was in the rehab place, and I said, “Mom, they need me to come back and I don't want to leave you cause I-I just want to give you permission to go and that I'm fine, but they need me to come back to the show and I know how you feel about me being disciplined and the work. So I'm going to go.” And I left and-- I guess it was the--I got there that night. It was the next morning and they called me from the hospital that she had passed, and would I have preferred to be there with her as she took her last breath? Of course. Same thing with my father. And I know that both of them in their dying, I held them the same way that I hold myself that when I'm on my deathbed. I know that they felt that they lived lives that were worthy and of great value. And that's all that I trust that this process that I'm in will lead me. I don't want it to say on my tombstone, ‘She worked so hard and then she died.’
Max: Right. What do you want us to say?
Judith: Well, one of the things that I say in so many speeches that I've given, there's a beautiful piece in Man and Superman by George Bernard Shaw, and there's a piece in it that there's a part of it that goes, ‘I want to be thoroughly used up when I die. For the harder I work, the more I live. Life is no brief candle, to me, it is the sort of splendid torch I have got hold of for the moment. And I want to make it burn as brightly as possible before handing it on to future generations.’ It's about being a selfish little clod of ailments and grievances of believing the world is devoted to making you happy. You know it's not. It's-- [Max laughs] you're laughing, but it, right it's --
Max: It's about getting your ice cream.
Judith: Right? I deserve this. No, you don't deserve it. No, you work for it. You be there for people, you give.
Max: Yeah.
Judith: You grow. You be.
Max: I've got one more question for you. What I want to ask is like, I don't think this is about getting, but what do you want from the time that you have left?
Judith: Want is one of those funny words to me, the language of it implies the getting, you know. I would choose to be the most aware, the most conscious person I could be. The person who makes it about someone else, not only about myself. And I don't mean to disregard myself, I'm not talking about being Mother Teresa for God's sake, I mean, you know, I mean, it's not this sort of lofty thing-- it's a contextual framework.
Max: It's about how you want to be.
Judith: It's about how I want to be. Exactly. And then the getting or the wanting or the whatever will come. But it comes from a different place. It's what I said before it's to be, do, have. Not the do, have, be.
Max: [laughs] Right.
Judith: So if I think about what I want, it's like, that's me, you know, Little Judy Light saying “No only feature films. No, only Broadway.” I mean, somebody once said to me in an interview, they said, “Did you ever think that a person who was on a soap opera and a sitcom would have gotten three Tony awards?” And I thought, that's right, I never could have planned that. I never could have done that.
Max: I mean, that's the kind of like, um, wild thing about where you've landed when you think about Little Judy Light wanting her ice cream is like, you did actually get it all.
Judith: Well, hello [both laugh]. I don’t know what else I’ll be graced with. I don’t know how much time I have. None of us do. We’re here for the time that we’re given and if we can do it and be messy and graceful and kind and feel everything including unhappiness and all of that…
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Judith: But if we can stay consciousness about it, it has a different way of floating through you.
CREDITS
Max: 70 Over 70 is a production of Pineapple Street Studios and it’s produced by Jess Hackel. Our associate producer is Janelle Anderson. Our editors are Maddy Sprung-Keyser and Joel Lovell. Research and additional reporting by Charley Locke.
Our mixer is Elliott Adler, and Jenna Weiss-Berman and I are the executive producers.
Our theme song is Like a Dream, by Francis and the Lights, and the music you’re listening to now is by Beverly Glenn Copeland who is 77 years old. Original music by Terence Bernardo. Additional music by Noble Kids, and music licensing by Dan Knishkowy.
Our cover art is by Maria Kalman, who’s 72 and our episode art is by Lynn Staley, she’s 74 and also my mom.
Special thanks this week to Johnny Chappell and Alison Stannard. And welcome to the world, Artie Weiss-Garcia!
Thank you, Greg O’Brien and thank you, Judith Light.
I'm Max Linsky. Thanks for listening.
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