BACK ISSUE
In Case You Forgot, We Let Tyra Get Away With A LOT. This week, Josh and Tracy revisit moments from one of the most influential supermodels of all time: Tyra Banks. She has modeled, smized, booty-tooched, acted, and created businesses and brands. But throughout her career, there have been some messy moments. And we’re not just talking about ANTM contestant Dani’s tooth gap (RIP). We talk to Jay Manuel, former Creative Director for "America's Next Top Model," about Tyra’s legacy, the cost of being a trailblazer, and what it was like to be on set for that infamous blackface photo shoot.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION
[00:00]
[CLIP] [voices]: [Music change]
--Beyonce? You look like Luther Vandross.
--Hoe, but make it fashion.
--But you ain't heard that for me.
--Fierce.
--[Singing] Call Him!
--Can’t stop.
--[Soft voices risein background]
-- You see, when you do clownery,
-- Cause we won’t stop.
--the clown comes back to bite--
--I can't get no sleep cause a ya'll--
--it's Britney, bitch--
--Ya'll not gonna get no sleep cause of me--
[voices overlapping]--We were rooting for you, Tiffany, we were all rooting for you... [Overlapping voices build into crescendo]
Single voice: [Indistinct speech] Walls?
Single Voice: Who said that? [Theme music]
INTRO [00:29]
[Theme Music Continues]
Josh: Welcome to Back Issue, a weekly podcast that revisits formative moments in pop culture that we still think about.
Tracy: Each week we're going to go back into the past and revisit unforgettable moments that we all think we remember. And we're going to learn what they can teach us about where we are collectively as a people right now.
Josh: This week, all things Tyra Banks.
[CLIP] Tyra: "I was rooting for you, we were all rooting for you. How dare you?!"
"Hoe, but then make it fashion."
Tracy: I'm Tracy Clayton.
Josh: And I'm Josh Gwynn.
Josh & Tracy: [They laugh] [Music builds & cuts]
Set Up: [01:09]
Tracy: So, Josh, why are we here? What is this show? Who are you? Why should anyone listen to us? Who is we?
Josh: I feel like you're my internal dialogue right now.
Tracy: Dun dun DUN. [Josh laughs]
Josh: [Laughing] "Who are you? Why do people listen to you?" [They laugh].
Tracy: [Laughing] I sound like my dad.
Josh: Let's introduce each other. Cause, like, I don't know if I can introduce myself. That feels weird.
Tracy: OK, so who is Joshua Llewellyn Marie Bernadice Gwynn?
Josh: Not my entire government. [Laughs]
Tracy: At least I left out the extra three names. [Josh laughs] Cause you know. So Josh is a producer at Pineapple Street Studios where we have made what feels like eight thousand million hundred billion shows together. I also like to refer to Josh as like a walking Rolodex of all of the pop culture moments that you don't know that you remember until you hear somebody say it? Josh is the one that's probably somewhere, saying it. [Josh laughs] If you were in podcast form, Josh, this is what the podcast would be. Just like, [Josh laughs] reasons to yell out your favorite catchphrases and sing your favorite songs from 1993 or whatever.
Josh: God, I love 1993.
Tracy: Can we go back? You got a time machine on you?
Josh: --I'm ready to go back.
Tracy: Wayyyy back...To the womb sometimes, honestly. But that is a different show. [Josh laughs.] OK! Um, I think that's you.
Josh: I think that's an accurate description. It's my turn, though.
Tracy: Ohhh. I was nice [Josh laughs] to you. Don't forget that. [They laugh].
Josh: Ok. So Tracy Clayton is a podcaster extraordinaire. I don't think I need to say more than Beyonce knows that she's alive. [Tracy: Mm] We woke up one morning, [Laughs] everyone got onto Beyonce's Internet, and Blue Ivy [Tracy laughs] had cut out a picture of [laughs] Tracy's face from one of the podcasts that we worked on [Tracy: Mhm] and made a collage with all these other super notable people...
Tracy: I was directly next to Toni Morrison, [Crosstalk] [03:15-03:17] not bragging just sayin'.
Josh: Like can you--.
Tracy: --Just sayin'--.
Tracy: But yeah. That's who we are. We are making this show because we're obsessed with this shit. Can you say shit? On our own show?
Josh: Hell yeah.
Tracy: Fuck it!
[Josh Laughs]
Tracy: So a lot of these moments that we are absolutely obsessed with, that we reference all the time, that we send our friends memes about… these are moments that were basically overlooked by the whitestream media which is what that is now, basically.
Josh: [Laughs] Yeah.
Tracy: But, you know like Who’s to say that In Living Color doesn’t deserve it’s own New York Times, New York Magazine Deep dive?
Josh: I think that the whitestream media will dig into these moments when it’s profitable, right?
Tracy: Mmmmm.
Josh: Like, there are these random pop cultural moments I feel like they just gloss over, and then BAM! Or, BOOM! it’s in a marketing campaign for some huge corporation.
Tracy: Right. We know who Moesha is, buy our perfume.
Josh: Exactly
Tracy: And it’s just like what?
Josh: And Back Issue is that space that we can go to where we can kind of do like our own personal deep dive into these moments, and figure out why they’ve stuck around, and why they’ve stayed with us, and why they were formative in the first place. [Tracy: Mhm]
Tracy: Right, like if we want to do do a highly produced radio piece on the socio-political implementations-
Josh: Okay!
Tracy: -and cations of, uh, This Is How We Do It. by Montell Jordan…
Josh: Then this is how we do it
Tracy: And that is what we shall. It’s like, the late, Great Diahnn Carrol said If you weren’t invited to the party, throw your own. That’s basically-
Josh: Mmmmm.
Tracy: --what Back Issue is here to do. Back Issue is going to be looking back at the past, and finding those moments that helped to build who you are. They are the thread of the tapestry that is your life.
Josh: Ashe [Snaps]
Tracy: Thank you, mmmm. thank you
Josh: Ashe
Tracy: Ashe, Ashe
[MUSIC ENDS]
SEGMENT 1 [04:47]
Josh: Ok Tracy - We’re gonna talk about Tyra today right?
Tracy: Yes.
Josh: I think we should break down some of the things we love, and hate, and then talk with someone who knows her really, really well.
[CLIP] Jay Manuel: So for those of you who don’t know who I am, my name’s Jay Manuel, I’m the creative director for all the photo shoots and runway shows for America’s Next top Model.
Josh: Tracy, we got to get to the bottom of some of these things. I can’t wait to hear what Jay says. But first, let’s talk about our stunt queen--
Tracy: Mhmm
Josh: --Tyra banks. And the trouble that she’s been getting into recently in the public,
Tracy: Mmmm
Josh: Like, they were trying to cancel her, or re-evaluate her maybe, because everybody’s got all this time on their hands and stuff now.
Tracy: Well we have to find something to do, okay.
Josh: But before we go there, let’s reign it back, and kind of revisit some of the moments that we think of when we think of the name “Tyra Banks”. And then see, if Jay maybe has some of the answers. But first, the stunts.
[MUSIC BREAK]
Tracy: I cannot think of a stuntier queen--
Josh: Than Tyra Banks.
Tracy: Josh, I don’t know if you know but Tyra has made some decisions in her day.
Josh: Oh I know.
Tracy: Done some wild things - like that time she gave out bedazzled vaseline and everyone was excited for some reason?
[CLIP] Tyra: "You get vaseline and you get vaseline and you get vaseline!!!"
Josh: I think about that like once a week. Or that time she went undercover as like homeless and she just like put dirt on her face? [Tracy: Ugh.] And was like, ‘I’m homeless now!’
Tracy: Like--Oh my...and she did the same thing when she went undercover as an overweight person in like a fat suit.
Josh: I remember that. [Tracy: Like…] Or remember when she had Keenyah from America’s next Top Model like pretend to be an elephant? Like she like modeled as an elephant--
Tracy: --when she was real worried about her weight...Yes! It could have been a coincidence?!
Josh: We’re going to get into that one later for sure. We have to spend some time there.
Tracy: We must because I’m still not over that. I’m still not over a lot of things. [They laugh] But that--
Josh: Right. she has this tendency to make everything about herself. Like one time she gave Miley Cyrus a birthday present for her 16th birthday and it was a picture of her at 16.
Tracy: What? Wait. Hold on. Time out wait a second. Did this happen like in real life?
Josh: Yeah it happened in real life. They were they were at Disneyland.
Tracy: At Disney Land?! Wait. [Laughs]
[CLIP] Tyra: That is me at 16 years old. So what I want to do is I want to give you this. This symbol--symbolizes me... [Miley laughs] and I'm so proud you--[Crosstalk]
[CLIP] Miley Cyrus: Oh my gosh that is, I--
[CLIP] Tyra: --You're carrying the torch of the 16 year olds.
[CLIP] Miley: Cyrus I could like not ask for a cooler present--
[CLIP] Tyra: Really?
[CLIP] Miley Cyrus: --That is really...
Tracy: Tyra Banks gave Miley Cyrus two pictures of her for her birthday. [Laughs]
Josh: This represents me on your day, but it's about me [Softly clapping] on your day.'
Tracy: [Singing] Happy birthday to you--.
Josh Me. [Laughs]
Tracy --Here's a picture of picture of--
Josh & Tracy: [In unison] --Me.
Tracy: [Singing] I Hope you can be like me, happy birthday to me [Laughs] From Tyra Banks. [They laugh] She's so goofy.
Josh: Sometimes her tendency toward spectacle kneecaps her intentions. So, like, it kind of like [Tracy: Mm] makes it difficult for her to, like, still live within this, 'expanding beauty' type of thing. [Tracy: Uh huh] But there's a reason why she's been on TV for as long as she has.
Tracy: Yeah. that's another good point. She's stayed relevant for as long-ass time--.
Josh: Long time.
Tracy: It's hard to stay relevant, I think. Especially for women. Because as you get older and you age, oh, God, you know, like sands through the hourglass, it's like, tick tock, tick tock. But it's almost like Tyra was like, 'Alright, I'm done with this chapter. What's next?' And then it was like, oh, TV show. [Josh: Mhm] Oh. So yeah you don't do that accidentally. You know, like she's she's got some smarts in there. I love the way that you said that her ability or tendency to turn things into a spectacle kneecaps her. [Josh: Mhm] Even when she like, does some ridiculous shit that makes you be like, 'This is wrong and you shouldn't do it,' it doesn't always feel like her intention was bad or malicious. It's just kind of like 'Girl, You are so extra.' You know like --
Josh: Yeah her intentions are usually good. [Tracy: Mhm] And that's another thing that I really like about her. [Tracy: Mm.] Like her mission statement seems really to be like, to expand what beauty is and to expand who's included in the conversation of what's beautiful. For someone who was in her position, that looks the way that she looks like [Tracy: Mhm] they didn't--she didn't have to do that. Like, [Tracy: Yeah] you know what I mean--
Tracy: Yeah, that's a good point.
Josh: --Like, she could have rested on that face and that body and [Tracy: Mhm] kept going to the [Laughs] going to the bank, [Tracy laughs] you know. It seems like the attempt to include Trans people, fat people, [Tracy: Yeah] short people, different races...Like that seems to be like her North star.
Tracy: Yeah. And I feel like that is important. Even though when we look at some of the ridiculous stunts that she pulled through today's lens, like back in the day, like you were saying, like she knows what it's like to be the only Black person in the room because she usually was. [Josh: Yeah] Like, I can just see like this boardroom, like with this like big like heavy like wooden oak table. And there's all these serious lookin' white men in suits all around it and in there's Tyra. [Josh: mhm] And she's like, 'OK, I have to make my presence at this table count.' And I think where she gets kneecapped is when she makes all of those conversations about her. [Josh: Mmm] You know, like? [Josh: Mhm] Tyra, I just want to hear someone who was considered, quote on quote, "morbidly obese," tell me what it's like to be them. I don't want to see you pretend to be them and then go back to your skinny life. You what I mean?
Josh: I think what that is, is something that Tyra is actually really good at, which is trying to bridge a connection between her and someone else. [Tracy: Yeah] Like making herself accessible. Because, like, if you think about what supermodels were like in the 90s, [Tracy: Mhm] they were completely inaccessible. Like you could not reach them. You could not touch them. They were in the most exclusive and luxury places. And like, [Tracy: Yeah] if you think about models today, they're on Instagram and you can D.M. them. And so, I think that that is her trying to make herself as accessible to someone else as she can. But it's like the downside of that same sort of like intention.
Tracy: And I feel like a way that she attempted to do that was Modelland? Can you talk to the people about Modelland?
Josh: Ugh! I love Modeland!
Tracy: I know you do child. I know.
Josh: I wish we could just move to Modelland. [Tracy laughs] So Modelland is this experience that Tyra is trying to curate where you could be a model for a day, right? [Tracy: Mhm] And they would have, like, photoshoots and everything but because of the quarantine she wasn’t able to open. [Tracy: Right] And Tyra left this poem on her website [Tracy: Oh no…] kind of explaining how she was feeling about pushing modelland back.
[CLIP] Tyra: This is Tyra. Hi. Sometimes I like to talk on TV. Sometimes I like to write my thoughts. And sometimes I like to rhyme my thoughts. And here's a little rhyme for you. May 1st was the day where all could come slay and capture their beautiful smize. To pose and to tooch, to laugh and to booch, and take home some cool merchandize. So I put on my mask and pose a lil' ask, please celebrate our almost birthday. But real birthday will come in our work place of fun. We'll open and all can come slay. There you go. From my rhyme to your heart. [Snaps]
Josh: Ashe--
Tracy: Why did that happen--
Josh: Ashe.
Tracy: --Why did it happen?--
Josh: Ashe.
Tracy: --No, no. You take those back. You take [Josh: Ashe] those Ashe's back.
Josh: She did it for the ancestors. You didn't feel it?
Tracy: [Laughing] I quit. [They laugh] Take a shot everytime I quit the show--
Josh: All I want is a matcha, [Tracy: Uh...] and some incense, [Tracy laughs] ...a head wrap--
Tracy: Ok, I I have some questions. I have questions. Why? [Laughs]
Josh: Did you hear how she changed the inflection on birth-day?
Tracy: That's when I almost [Josh laughs] closed my laptop. So, yes, I did.
Josh: [Laughing] Category is: Iambic Pentameter. [They laugh]
[BACKGROUND MUSIC STARTS - 12:35]
Tracy: But you know what, though? Like, even though, like, my first response is to roll my eyes all the way into the back of my head until they come back up to the front by themselves, I like that she does goofy shit like that. It really... as far as like the accessibility that you were talking about earlier, like she does get very, like, personal and vulnerable, which makes you trust her. And if not, trust her at least like be lenient when she does kind of like go too far and do a little bit too much. You know? Everybody's got a lot of time on their hands now...So people have time to, like, look back into everybody's closets and find, like, the worst thing that you did, because we know I-we need some to do. We need things to talk about--
Josh: --things to laugh at.
Tracy:--Yeah. Also, everybody's trying to escape the current day and like, we're looking backwards a lot. So, unfortunately, this um, looking back and looking backwards led Twitter to talkin' about some of the really ridiculous moments in Tyra's past. Notably from Top Model. All of these like really fucked up moments where like in the moment, you know, you didn't really realize it was fucked up cause it's just like, oh, here's a thing that's happening. Looks uncomfortable, but at least Black girl's on TV or like whatever. But as much as she worked to make space for others inside the world of modeling. She also was kind of like restricted. Like she--there were some boundaries and barriers that she paid attention to. And we most common saw this on Top Model when it came to like flaws. Even though she's always like 'All your flaws are perfect and beautiful' duh duh duh duh. She's Also, like, 'All right, makeover time. We're going to do the exact thing that you do not want us to do to your body.' [Laughs] You know--
Josh: But that the entire audience absolutely wants to watch.
Tracy: Oh, my. It's the best episode.
Josh: It's the best episode!
END OF SCORING [14:22]
Tracy: Ok. So. What happened [Indistinct] [20:12] is. [Laughs] Dani. Cycle Six. Beautiful girl, Black girl had a gap--
Josh: Beautiful gap--
Tracy: And it comes make over time. And this is what Tyra wants to change about her.
[CLIP] Tyra: So, Danielle, you went to the dentist, but you refused to have your gap closed. [Male voice in background] Do you really think you can have a cover girl contract with a gap in your mouth?
[CLIP] Dani: Yes, why not?
[CLIP] Tyra: [Speaking with lisp] This is all people see. 'Easy breezy beautiful CoverGirl.' It's not marketable.
[CLIP] Dani: A little bit is OK but I don't want to completely close it.
[CLIP] Male Voice: Well, I guess she just left a gap wide open for another girl, baby.
[CLIP] Female Voice: I agree.
Tracy: I feel like when I was watching it then, I don't know that I had like the language to describe, like the discomfort that I felt about it. This is a genetic thing passed down in in her family. Like, what if she was attached to it? And she was! She was attached to it. And like that was what was at the heart of the whole conversation is finally Dani's like, 'You know what? It was real fucked up. I didn't want to change my gap. And it was kind of confusing because Tyra's always talking about, you know, "Embrace your flaws" and this that and the other. But then she's like forcing me to make such a permanent change to myself...' Which is so fucked up. And back to the contradiction, right, like it stands in direct contrast to--what was the word that she made up--flaw- flaws--
Josh & Tracy: [In unison] Flawsome.
Tracy: --Or whatever. Yeah. This is not very flawsome, Tyra--
Josh: It's not.
Tracy: --That was not flawsome what you did at all.
Josh: You can tell her intentions are good because like she always is talking about how beauty lives in the world of "and" and [clap] she had Isis King on [Tracy: Mm] America's Next Top Model, [Tracy: Mhm] which was probably like the first time that I saw a Trans person on a reality show--
Tracy: Yeah same--
Josh: --Outside of, you know, like, talk shows from like the 80s and 90s that were like, horrible. [Tracy: Mhm]
[CLIP] Tyra: [Audience: Isis!] [Music] [Sound of camera clicking] This girl is absolutely amazing and my staff said, Tyra, there's something a little different about that girl. So what's different about that girl?
[CLIP] Isis: I was born physically male, but mentally everything else I was born female.
[CLIP] Tyra: Is-IS. [Music: Piano] Ultimately, Isis wasn't able to go all the way. But in her brief time on Top Model, she helped us all redefine what beauty really is all about.
Josh: It's crazy how much has changed in even that amount of time. Like I wouldn't have imagined seeing a show like Pose or something at that time. [Tracy: Mm] Like, it was so revolutionary that there was this Trans woman on this show as a competitor. But like, it wasn't like sensationalized.
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: It was just like, 'We're doing this thing and we've never done it before..’
Tracy: And that's that. [Josh: Mhm.] Yeah. For me, because I grew up, and I still revisit sometimes, old 90s talk shows--
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: --There were like a handful of just like tropes that everybody did. And one of those was, 'Is it a man or is it a woman?' And it was always like, you know, in this, like, sensationalized like, "It's a game!" And Ricki's were the worst. [Josh laughs] Ricki would be like, 'Girl, I don't want to mislead you, but these women are actually--' I can't think of one that rhymes. But, you know you know what I mean-- [Josh laughs]
Josh: I know what you talkin' 'bout, yeah yeah yeah. Like me and this woman went on a date and [Tracy chuckles] then I found out she's a mate--
Tracy: Yeah, exactly.
Josh: --Like what...is this--
Tracy:There's it--my favorite actual Ricki Lake episode title is, "Scuse me, girl, don't be misled. You are a skank, a hoochie, or a chicken head." [Josh laughs] That is the name of the show. [Laughs]
Josh: Yo, they were wylin. They were wylin.
Tracy: Yes, it was-it was it was a different time. It was a different time.
Josh: But it was really cool to see Tyra try to, like, expand what was happening--
Tracy: Yeah--
Josh: --Cause It was really ahead of its time. I think it's like the same year, slightly before we see Laverne Cox on "I Want to Work for Diddy."
Tracy: Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait--I forgot that that happened.
Josh: Yeah-that was the first time that we ever saw Laverne Cox was when she was on [Tracy: Wowww] that reality show where they were like--it was like The Apprentice but Diddy did it.[Laughs]
Tracy: It was terrible. [Laughing]
Josh: [Both laughing] It was so bad. But--
Tracy: It was really bad.
Josh: --So, like, this is way before we see Laverne Cox, like on the cover of Time.
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: --and like Orange is the New Black. Tyra was willing to do it. [Tracy: Mhm] So, like, I think that that can't be taken away from her--
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: --But at the same time, do you remember when she gave that dude the beard weave? [Tracy laughs] She put a weave on this man's face.
[CLIP] Female Voice: Let's see how this gonna look.
[CLIP] Male Voice: I'm sitting here and I'm nervous because everyone wants to know--what is this going to look like?
[CLIP] Male Voice #2: You're a Black Lincoln--
[CLIP] Male Voice:[Muffled voices in background] I'm lovin' myself with a beard like, [Tracy laughs] I like the look.
Josh: Not a Black Lincoln! [Both Laugh]
Tracy: Wow. So everybody was like, 'Oh, yeah, this looks good.' Everybody was like, thumbs up?
Josh: I know the audience didn't. [Tracy laughs] They eventually changed it because it looked so bad.
Tracy: Wow. Wait, is this the hole in the market that we've been waiting for? Do we need to have a line of [Josh laughs] lace front beards--
Josh: A line of like merkins for your face? [They laugh]
Tracy: [Laughs] To be a fly on the wall of the room that they were in when they decided on this beard.
Josh: They have all their pictures on the wall like Scandal, Right?
Tracy: Ah... [Laughing]
Josh: And Tyra sittin' in front like [Tracy laughs] 'You know what'll really fuck them up? [Tracy laughs] Weave beard. [Tracy laughs] Homegirl over here, she think she cute. [Tracy laughs] I'ma shave her head.' [They laugh]
Tracy: I just feel so many feelings now about this, because when you think about it, beards are pubes.
Josh: No, Tracy. [They laugh] They are not--
Tracy: They are!
Josh: --They are not.
Tracy: --It's hair that arrives when you hit puberty.
Josh: OK...
Tracy: Pubes. They're pubes for your face.
Josh: Any sort of body hair, though?
Tracy: Yeah. Underarm hair.
Josh: [Laughing] Oh, no.
Tracy: Pubes for your underarms--
Josh: Oh, no!
Tracy: Armpit pubes! [Laughs] [Claps] Oh, you look really sad. [They laugh]
Josh: That's such a gross visual.
Tracy: Well, don't get mad at me. Get mad at Tyra Banks for making face pube wigs. [Josh laughs]
Josh: I mean, she had Nyle DiMarco who, on his time on the show, he made a really big effort to like teach his fellow cast mates how to sign and how to communicate with him because he's deaf. [Tracy: Mhm] And so, like, that's a big part of his storyline. She knows this and she knows that he reads lips in order to communicate and she has them have a photo shoot in the dark.
Tracy: I'm sorry, what?
Josh: In the dark.
[CLIP] Male Voice: [Music: Epic] This challenge is gonna to be very difficult for Nyle. Not only if he can not hear, now, he won't be able to see.
Tracy: OK. There was a time where I was like '54 cycles of Top Model is enough.' This clearly happened after I quit watching because what the fuck.
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: What?
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: Again, it's moments like that where it's just like Tyra. You're too smart to not know any better now. Tyra, you got a whole team of producers and people around you who could be like, hey, this is insensitive. No, these are moments where she's like, 'Oh no, this is gonna be great for the show it's gonna make a great show.' And like, I feel like I can see her talking about, like, It's gonna complicate the energy and it's gonna like deepen the conversation.' No, girl, no, [Josh laughs] you are making people uncomfortable.
Josh: But she's also making really good TV.
Tracy: [Sighs] Oh, yes. And this, speaking of, ugh, ugh. These are my favorite episodes. I feel so bad--
Josh: See?!
Tracy: --This is somethin' that that she did on Top Model all the time. So. Tell me if you remember this. Cycle Four, right? There was a girl named Kahlen. Kahlen had lost a friend. A friend of hers died. Like an actual friend that she knew in real life, died. She's sad, she's hurt, she's grieving and she's mourning. The next photo challenge was the Seven Deadly Sins Challenge, where they had two pose in coffins. And her fucking friend--
Josh: --just died the day before.
[CLIP] Jay Manuel: Well, I hope none of you are afraid of tight and confined creepy spaces. Follow me.
[CLIP] Kahlen: It took everything in my body not to just give up right at that moment.
[CLIP] Jay Manuel: Today, you girls are gonna have to portray (clap) one of these deadly sins (clap) at the bottom of this eight foot grave.] [Menacing music]
[CLIP] Kahlen: My mind just is blank. I don't know if I can handle this. [Crying] [Music]
Tracy: See like, it's stuff like that that's just clearly petty. It's just clearly like for the sake of this show. Tyra, in doing that, set up this moment where she could like, be the the supreme like educator, like, 'Channel this, channel your grief.' Obviously, it-like a moment was created that even I, in my weed haze of life, can remember. [Josh laughs] Cause I remember her bein' in the coffin and she's like pushing against the sides. And she's just like [Imitates growling] just like growling [Josh: Yeah] and screaming. [Josh: Yeah] And I remember watching like, [In high voice] 'Oh my gosh! Modeling is so physical. She's doing so great in her grief!' But in retrospect, like, that shit is traumatic.
Josh: But is it effective?
Tracy: ...for the show, yeah. [Chuckles] For mental health and stability? Mm mm. [They laugh]
Josh: So what you're saying is that mental health and capitalism don't go together?
Tracy: That is my theory. [Josh laughs]
Josh: Another girl from that season, Keenyah--
Tracy: [Gasps] Keenyah!
Josh: --They were saying that she had issues with her weight. I mean, if you look at the girl, she doesn't look like she has any sort of issues with weight at all. [Laughs]
Tracy: None.
Josh: She looked fit.
Tracy: She was!
Josh: If she walked down any sort of street in Detroit or Chicago [Tracy: Come on...] And somebody a--and you were like--
Tracy: Miss Lady, miss lad--
Josh: --Exactly!
Tracy: --'Scu me. Hey, can I walk wit' you?
Josh: --Exactly--
Tracy: --Can I walk wit' you? [Laughs]
Josh: Exactly... but they planted that seed of doubt in her head [Tracy: Mmhmm] that she was like not as thin as she should be, as thin as like the rest, the contestants. And so during the Seven Deadly Sins challenge, they made her gluttony and put a bunch of food and donuts in--
Tracy: All the snacks!
Josh: [Laughing] --her coffin--
Tracy: They made this girl model with snacks.
[CLIP] Jay Manuel: [Fade in, SpeakingTo Camera] ...model. Keenyah. It just came off looking a little campy as opposed to fashion-ey.
[To Keenyah] Don’t hold your tummy like you’re pregnant! Ok?!
[To Camera] I’ve seen drag queens softer than her...
Josh: Oh, my God.
Tracy: So fucked up. And they also use copious like footage of her like walking around like eating like snacks and stuff.
Josh: Mmhm. They, like, really prey on the mental health of these contestants.
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: That's not the only time that her weight comes up during the shoots. Like they had this other challenge where they had to pose as like the essence of an animal--
Tracy: Which already... [They laugh] Girl...
[CLIP] Jay Manuel: [Voices] [Music Upbeat] One week it's gluttony, next week it's an elephant [Overlapping voices in background]
[CLIP] Keenyah: Everybody else has these sexy little animals. I get to be the big fat elephant. Ugh. Why do I keep getting stuck with these fat like characters? What is goin' on?
Josh: They made her an elephant! And this happened to be a challenge that was like sponsored by Lubriderm, like the lotion? So they all have an alligator below them and like a patch of skin.
Tracy: So they was like, you fat, and ashy. [They laugh]
Josh: Oh, my God! [Tracy laughs] Oh, my God.
Tracy: And that sucks because it does make such good television because, like, I'm just like, 'Is she gonna pull it off?' Like, 'Can she get a good picture,' Duh duh duh duh? But the fucked up thing is that, like the moments that get talked about, right, the ones that make news, are the ones that are so emotional, right. [Josh: Mhm] Like somebody's crying. Somebody's is upset. Somebody died, something happened. And like, you pretty much have to exploit them if this is like the kind of show [Josh: Mhm] that you're going to do. And so like these are moments where I'm just like. But but but but Tyra, you said you you said flawsome was OK.
Josh: Right.
Tracy: But Tyra that one time you was like, 'Kiss my fat ass.' [Josh: Right.] And then it was like, 'Wait, never mind, I don't want my fat ass no more.' And then it was gone.
Josh: Right.
Tracy: When are your flaws OK, [Josh: Mhm] Tyra? Like, you know, like how do you decide, like, when to just like gently push at something this fucked up, and when do you decide to just like all the way just like bulldoze it down, you know.
Josh: Yeah, like if America's Next Top Model actually followed Tyra's philosophy, there would be no makeover challenge.
Tracy: Whoa...
Josh: Everyone would come as they are, and take the best picture that they could [Tracy: Mhm] and then they would judge based on that.
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: But the inner stunt queen [Tracy laughs] You know that tendency, she just-she can't get away [Tracy laughs] from it. And it's also like why we're still talking about it.
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: So I would say it's kind of effective in terms of like, us remembering it [Tracy: Yeah] and it being something that sticks out, but it sticks out because it was traumatic as fuck. [Laughing]
Tracy: Right! Exactly.
[CLIP] Jay Manuel: [Music] Now there's a twist. We are actually going to switch your ethnicities. [Multiple female voices screaming: What?!] [Music] The challenge here really is taking on the persona of that other ethnicity.
[CLIP] Female Voice: Her makeup is definitely a long process today.
[CLIP] Male Voice: Just make sure she's evenly coated and there's no spots.
[CLIP] Female Voice: All of us girls have to be painted and plastered with different colors. I mean, it's gonna suck to have to scrub it off later.
Tracy: Ohhh
Josh: No, Karen, it's not gonna suck [Tracy laughs] when you scrub it off later. Such a flippant comment about something that's so serious and like has such a [Tracy: Yeah] violent history in our past.
Tracy: That is the word. It's a violent history, right--
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: --And like to present people darkening their faces, changing their races, without any mention of, like, the context behind it... [Josh: Mhm] It's just-it's irresponsible.
Josh: Very irresponsible.
Tracy: It's heavy. It's so much. It's just like it's fucked up. [Laughs] You know?
Josh: It's one of those examples of like where intent doesn't matter when impact does. [Tracy: Mhm] Because I really doubt Tyra Banks, like, set up this thing so that she could have people trade--[Laughs] tradin' races [Tracy laughs] in order to, like, make fun of Blackness, or in order to continue in those same sort of tropes [Tracy: Mm] that you see from like minstrelsy and like blackface.
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: --One of the things that people love to watch is transformation. [Tracy: Mhm Mm.] Like people love to see something become something else. [Tracy: Yeah] So if you understand that, you can understand why she would want to have a challenge where they're tr- [Chuckles, Singing] tradin' races. [Tracy laughs] But, to do so without understanding the gravity and the context that blackface has played in this country, [Tracy: Mhm] and, would I have been more upset if she had done the challenge and then educated the girls about blackface and like what it means?
Tracy: Right.
Josh: Or if they just didn't do it...And I think [Tracy: Mhm] they just sh-probably shouldn't have done it. [Chuckles]
Tracy: Yeah, I agree. I do think this is one of those moments where, like, Tyra is trying to just like push the boundary and push the limits and break down barriers. But, you know, [Josh: Yeah] maybe pick another barrier [Josh laughs] Tyra, you know.
Josh: Pick another door.
Tracy: There's a-there are other options. I mean, like something that heavy you got to have history and context behind it--
Josh: Yeah, for sure.
Tracy: Also all the white girls just look like white girls in extra dark makeup.
Josh: And all the Black girls look like white chicks.
Tracy: Yes.
Josh: It never works. [Tracy laughs] It never works.
Tracy: Literally. It does not. [Music]
INTERVIEW [29:12]
Tracy: Josh and I have clearly thought about America’s Next Top Model a LOT, perhaps more than most. BUT -- we thought it would be a good idea to get a point of view that neither one of us could actually offer. And that is the point of view of someone who was actually there on the set working. Somebody who was inside the America’s Next top Model machine. And we wanted to do this with somebody who knows all things Top Model and Tyra Banks. So we reached out to Jay Manuel, who served as the creative director for the first 18 cycles out of the whole 5,796 total cycles that America’s Next Top Model had.
Josh: Jay, take us back to like when you got the call to do this show. Like, what were you doing at the time, what made you say ‘Yes, absolutely I have to do this.’
Jay Manuel Back in 2002, the only reality shows that were on TV at the time were The Real World on MTV. [Josh: Mmhmm] And then we had Survivor. But there were no competition reality shows [Josh & Tracy: Mm] Like there was no Kardashians. There were no... any other competition shows. Tyra and I had been working together for years - I got this call. She would always call. We would talk every day. And then--she--I got this call -- It was six a.m. I was in bed. [Laughter] and, you know, you look at your caller I.D., on your landline, landline, people! [Josh & Tracy laugh]
Tracy: On your what?! [Laughter] I don't understand those words.
Jay Manuel And I'm like, what is she doing up? Cause I'm thinkin it's 3:00 a.m.. That's my first [Snaps fingers] thought. [Josh: Right.] So I thought something was wrong. [Josh: Right.] [Tracy: Mm] So I picked up the phone and I was like, what's wrong? And she's like, 'Oh, I got it. I know what I'm going to do. Like, I got it!' [Clap] And she talked about [Soft laughter] this whole idea of doing this model competition show that she wants to pitch. And Kenya Barris, who's one of her friends you know they were--
Josh: Of like Blackish fame, right?
Jay Manuel: --Yeah of course! Yes. Everyone knows Kenya. [Tracy: Oh!] But he worked with her on creating a treatment to pitch at the time. She said, 'You're gonna have to help me if--' she goes, 'of course, you're doing my makeup on every episode of buh buh bah.' Cause I was her makeup artist at the time. [Josh: Mm] And I said, sure, whatever, you know, [Tracy Laughs] that that was my first call. And then I remember the process of her pitching...I think it was a hard pitch cause she went to a lot of different places [Claps] And then she went to then UPN, which is no longer ar-around.
Tracy: RIP UPN.
Josh: RIP.
Jay Manuel: Yes, UPN [Josh laughs] which was merged with Warner Brothers and that's what created the CW. And so it was just really a very different time of kind of assembling something that was that new. At first I was just gonna be working with Tyra behind the scenes, but on camera, working with the girls, etc., doing the makeup for the photo shoots and all of that. That was officially my role. And we were gonna do these other segments that kind of gave people a behind the curtain look uh, if you will, uh at the industry. So when Season Two started, they basically said, 'You're running the show. When it comes to all the creative in the photo shoot, you bring on the photographers and we'll give you a budget per shoot' and that's just kind of how my role was born. And then it turned into working with the sponsors for the different shoots. And I literally just kind of ran all the creative and did the final runway shows. So, it was a lot of work behind the scenes. People saw me on camera. They had no idea what I was doing behind the scenes.
[Music]
Josh: [Music underneath] It sounds like it was like a really scrappy, like, [JM laughs] pull all your resources and that sort of a working environment. But like, did you know that it was going to be s-- a huge hit when you first started in those early days like the first cycle?
Jay Manuel: --I remember Tyra saying, you know um, she's like, 'We'll be lucky if we get like just one more season,' you know?
Josh: Wow.
Jay Manuel: --So we didn't think [Tracy: Mm] this was something that would go on for, Tracy, as you said, 365 [Clap] seasons, or something like that. [Josh & Tracy Laugh] But uh, but I remember she was thinking, 'Oh, we'll get like three seasons.'
Tracy: [Laughs] I would love for you to walk me through, like the process of like creating the uh photo shoots [JM: Shoots.] cause some of them were like wild and like a good way [JM chuckles] in a a wha-- a what is happening kind of way. Like there was krumping, [JM laughs] there were like... who who was like, 'OK so today we're gonna have him like, pose with elephants. What do ya'll think of that?' [Josh laughs] [JM: Mmm] You know, like what's the what's the process? How did those shoots, the ideas for those shoots, get born?
Jay Manuel You know, I really just had a phone call with Tyra saying [Claps] she just said to me, quite simply, she goes, 'I want the girls to go through things that I went through.' [Josh & Tracy: Mmm] I'm like, makes a lot of sense. So, you know, when the girls were shooting in bikinis in New York, when it was winter, [Josh: Mmhm] well, we often shoot opposite seasons. [Josh & Tracy Mm.] That was something Tyra had done. So everything we did in Season One -- we just wanted to kind of root in reality. So the girls knew what they were gonna be [Punctuates: clap clap clap] up against when they walked into the industry. And I thought that was really brilliant of Tyra to kind of have the foresight just to kind of go there. But there was a shift because when the show became increasingly more popular, you know, you were talking app--about appointment television. We had millions of people tuning in and now you've all these sponsors. So then it became a lot of cooks in the kitchen.
Josh & Tracy: Mmm.
Jay Manuel: --Sooo [chuckling] once we came out of Season Three, which was the Eva, Yaya, Toccara season -- it was a huge season. People loved Season Three--
Josh: Mmm...
Tracy: My fav, yes!
Josh: Love that season, ugh!
Jay Manuel: I'm not dissing Season One and Two, but Three just kind of like it blew us into the stratosphere. I really felt then the pressure, like everyone kept saying, 'Okay, now we need another layer, a layer!' [Josh/Tracy: Mmm] So what started off as a conversation between Tyra and myself, then it was notes of like, 'Oh, and we're going to do this!' [Snaps] 'Oh, and we're gonna do that!' [Snaps] Like, just notes. And [Josh: Mm] sometimes I you know, I, I would push back on certain layers and they heard me. And then there were other times when I pushed back on layers and I was told I had to execute the creative. And you guys can probably all appreciate [Josh: Mmhm] that sometimes, you feel like to do your job by putting your voice and and you want to respect and honor the project. But if they say you've got to do something else, you have to listen to them so it becomes it [Tracy: Yeah] it becomes tricky.
Tracy: Yeah. One more teeny tiny question. Did someone [JM chuckles] intentionally like make Keenyah be the elephant because they knew she was feelin a way about her weight? [JM laughs] Do you remember that?
Jay Manuel: [Laughs] Yes, I do remember that. I've been asked that question several times--
Tracy: Really?!
Jay Manuel: --Absolutely not. And I can tell you, because when we pre-produced that shoot going into South Africa [Tracy: Uh huh], we weren't sure we would be able to get certain materials for those shoots. [Josh: Mhm] So that creative was actually designed early on. [Tracy: Mm] And what we did was we assigned girls to characters and we had backup. So if this girl got eliminated, then this girl would be this [Josh: Mm] if that girl was eliminated... [Tracy: Ohh] so it was actually done as a pre-production meeting and it was purely coincidence [Tracy laughs] off of our grid. [Tracy laughs] That's how that happened. But people swear we did that. [Tap] We did not.
Tracy: That is interesting to know, though.
Josh: I think our culture is really looking back at America's Next Top Model right now [JM: Mhm] and processing a lot of the different decisions that were made and who [JM: Sure.] was making them and that sort of thing. [JM: Sure.] And I know that a lot of people were talking about Dani and her closing the gap. But I've been wondering [JM chuckles] a lot about, like, why we're talking about these moments like 14 years later. Like, what's your take [Tracy: Mm.] on why they've come back [JM: Yeah] and they're now relevant conversation... [Subsequent words indistinct]
Jay Manuel: Sure. First of all, nobody anticipated uh, this And then I guess when people were forced into quarantine, they were like looking for nostalgia? This nostalgic moment, [Josh: Mm] I'm assuming, because my understanding [Tracy: Yeah] was on Amazon Prime and Hulu, the show became a very big binged-watch show. So people were looking back. But then their younger brothers or sisters, or their children were watching in the room. and I know there's been a lot of controversy um around various things from Dani's gap to, you know, some of the shoot creative. [Claps] Um, specifically. I believe they were talking about the ‘Got Milk’ ad uh shoot we did in--
Josh: That's the one where they -- trading races, basically--
Jay Manuel: --changing races. Yeah. In--I think that was cycle four and I do think, with that shoot in particular, I did go to my co-EP because I felt very uncomfortable kind of going t--to the higher ups, and that included Tyra, and talking about how uncomfortable I was with the shoot. Cause as the creative director, [Josh/Tracy: Mm] I was on camera, for that. [Josh: Mmhm.] You know, my parents are from South Africa. They grew up under apartheid. You know, [Josh: Mm] I was educated the first time [Tracy: Mm] I went to South Africa--I was born in the States, but I went at the age of seven. And, w-you know, stayed with my family and where they lived, under that regime. And so really understanding that. And I you know, people, I know a lot of people assume I'm Spanish, I'm actually bi-racial. [Tracy: Mm.] So it's it's kind of confusing, especially my last name. I know. But Manuel is actually a South African [Tracy laughs] last name. [Claps] [Josh: Mm] But, you know, I felt very overwhelmed and very uncomfortable. And my co-EP then went and spoke to the other EP's and they basically the word that came back to me was h-he has to do his job. He has to be on [Tap] camera. Don't worry, we'll edit this to be fine. He won't look bad.
Josh & Tracy: Mmm. Mmm.
Jay Manuel: --And that's what I was told. And I was never really nervous when we shot the show. Um [Josh: Mm] it was just a very natural environment for me to be in. You know, the girls walk in. I'm like, 'Hey, girls. So today we're doing duh duh duh duh duh,' [Claps] you know? But that day [Tracy: Mm] I was petrified. [Claps]
Tracy: Wow.
Jay Manuel: I was just I just thought --for sure, you know, I was going to wear all of this and it was very difficult. And, you know, I know we're looking back at it now um and people say, well, that was then and this is now. The other thing I feel like I have to say is, I don't I don't I think that's an excuse. I think even for, you know, that was shot at end of 2004, or 2005. I don't think there's an excuse for that, personally.
Tracy: So how did it feel [JM: Sure.] for you to be able to uh to speak your truth after all this time when it came back up.
Jay Manuel: You know, overall, uh you know, working on America's Next Top Model was an opportunity that was magical at times. I mean, we we co-- you know, being a part of something that became a global phenomenon [Clap] um that's really an amazing experience. I learned a ton-- [Josh & Tracy Mhm. Mhm] You know, I have nothing but the utmost respect for every door that Tyra opened within our industry. Um being the first Black woman on Sports Illustrated, to be an amazing Black model on for CoverGirl, Victoria's Sec--everything that she's done for all of those...Um an-and I'm gonna say Black and Brown, young boys and girls, everybody out there saying, oh, my God. I think a lot of people are throwing Tyra under the bus kind of [Josh: Mm] unnecessarily so, because she's already answered and kind of apologized for a lot of decisions that she takes responsibility for. [Josh: Mm] Uh and so now this whole thing comes up and, you know, now we're in this era of cancel culture and they're trying to cancel her. [Josh: Mm] Um, and I think that's a little unfair. Um, but at the same time, I felt like I had to kind of speak on the record as to kind of what really happened there. [Music fade out]
Josh: Jay wrote a novel inspired by his time at America’s Next Top Model called The Wig, The Bitch and The Meltdown. It’s out now.
[Music: Chill vibe]
LEARN FROM THIS [40:10]
[Music: ‘Learn something from this’ Bounce mix]
Tracy So, Josh, did we...
[CLIP] Tyra Banks: “Learn something from this?” [They laugh]
Josh: I think we did learn something from this.
Tracy: Talking to Jay Manuel - I feel like I got like a peek behind the curtain, and I learned some stuff I didn’t know about the show -- like I didn’t know that he was the creative director of the entire thing and [Josh: Yeah. Yeah.] and it happened like on the spot, like. [Josh: Yeah.] It was a beautiful show, you know like a lot of like the, the shoots and stuff I’m like ‘Okay!! That’s all you! I see it!’ Umm… I don’t know how to delicately put this - I did not know he was half black.
Josh: I didn’t either --
Tracy: I didn’t! I had no idea!
Josh: But it really makes me think about the creative differently. Knowing that--
Tracy : Yeah.
Josh: -- the person that was executing the vision was, like, you know.
Tracy: Uh-huh
Josh: Had a personal stake in like how--
Tracy: Right.
Josh: --these things happen. And I’m- Of course, like, having a black person there doesn’t make it not problematic.
Tracy: Right, Right.
Josh: But it does change, like, how I am perceiving it a little bit.
Tracy: Right. It’s kinda like, you could like “Ok ok, ok, let me relax a little bit’. You know?’
Josh: Mhmm.
Tracy: Like, at least like there’s, there’s a reason to like, trust what I’m seeing, you know?
Josh: Mhmm. Mhmm
Josh: I feel you, I feel you on that.
Josh: Yeah
Tracy: Um, also, uh apparently the keenyah as an elephant thing was not planned. which I feel like…
Josh: Is just really good editing? Like I feel like sometimes they see how things ended, and so they go back and pull footage that--
Tracy: Oooooh.
Josh: --supports that ending, in the editing bay like, later on, after it’s all done.
Tracy: Uh huh.
Josh: So maybe it wasn’t, the producers were like ‘Oooo Keenyah’s getting big--
Tracy: Right.
Josh --we’re gonna make her an elephant--
Tracy: ‘Make her be an ashy elephant.’
Josh: --but they knew that was like was a theme of her time there--
Tracy: Mhmm.
Josh: --and so they were pulling like the clips of her eating--
Tracy: They do be doing that
Josh: --While she’s in the kitchen to like accentuate that point?
Tracy: Yeah.The unfortunate thing about this is that this -- like the tricky editing and like producing moments that may or may not have happened in a certain way -- is unfortunately standard for every reality TV show that exists, pretty much.
Josh: Every reality TV show. Every single one.
Tracy: Right.
Josh: But, I think that we still have to remember with America’s Next Top Model specifically, that it was the beginning of this reality television competition format. And so there really was a team of producers that were thinking about all these different situations that they were putting the contestants in, and thinking about how it was going to look to an audience. So I think it’s fair to give them a little bit of grace in terms of like, what’s standard for reality television shows, but, it still was a decision that was made.
Tracy: Right. I think a really important thing that we have learned is that all humans are human. Even celebrities, even supermodels, even Tyra Banks.
Josh: Right.
Tracy: Like she is an amazing model. She is an amazing personality. [Josh: Mhm] But she fucks up and she fucks up a lot. [Josh: Mhm] But that doesn't have to be a bad thing. You know, like I mean, who amongst us does not fuck up every now and then? The difference is like, we don't have Tyra Banks' platform.
Josh: Right.
Tracy: But when you consider that, like, she took so many risks, really big risks at a time when no one else was. [Josh: Mhm] She was essentially like learning in public.
Josh: Right.
Tracy: Which is a thing that I've got some experience with as a podcast host. Like, sometimes you say dumb shit. Sometimes you tweet stupid shit. And learning in public is hard. Change is messy. The first person who tries I mean, like 20 years later is always going to look a shit show. When you look back, right? [Josh: Yeah] You know? So I think it's kind of like our ancestor, W.E.B. Du BOIS [They laugh]
Tracy: But one of my favorite quotes by W.E.B. Du Bois, he says in his essay where he's talking about this theory of double consciousness, right, [Josh: Mm.] this theory of being like human, but also Black. You know, like you have these two realities that are warring. And in it he says, "We know that we are beautiful, but we're ugly, too."
Josh: Mmmmm.
Tracy: That's what it means to like see someone's humanity in full. That's what it means to be human. You know, like you can't just pick and choose. Like, I'm going to take the good parts out of this person or I'm just going to focus on the bad. Like, no, we're all dumb and we're all stupid and we're all fucked up.
Josh: But that's where our culture's changed too, right--
Tracy: Exactly.
Josh: --Because, if you think about like Instagram and like social media, [Tracy: Mhm] like we've been trained to really curate our lives [Tracy: Mhm] so you only see the best parts of them.
Tracy: I don’t think it’s intentional, but like, this pressure to just like put the most perfect picture of yourself out there. When you have like, millions of young girls looking up to you and they want to be just like you, that means they want to be perfect, and that means that they’re going to grow up suffering because there is no such thing as perfection. And we sure do see that with Tyra Banks.
Josh: Yeah, Yeah.
Tracy: As gorgeous as she is, all these different enterprises she's done, she's done really stupid shit. And it gives me some comfort in knowing that, you know?
Josh: Yeah. What I think Tyra brings up to me is like, our culture has gotten to the point where it's so black and white. It’s like, I can hold two thoughts in my head simultaneously, even if they’re at odds with each other. Like, yes, Tyra did a bunch of fucked up shit. [Tracy: Mhm] Sometimes hilarious, sometimes problematic... [Tracy laughs softly] At the same time, Tyra was an innovator [Tracy: Mhm.] And when you're the first person in a space doing a thing, you're going to mess up.
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: I can see both of those things. [Tracy: Mhm]
Josh: But that doesn't stop me from acknowledging her importance and her contributions to the culture.
Tracy: For sure. I think it's really important to emphasize, like the messiness of change. Because just like you said, when you're the first person to do something, of course, you gon' look a fool for doing it or the way that you did it 10, 20 years later when we know better. [Josh: Mhm] So Hattie McDaniel, she was the first Black woman to win an Oscar. I think about her so much because her acceptance speech, the the most famous of the lines that she's known for saying is, um, "I hope that I will always remain a credit to my race." Right? [Josh: Mm.] And the first time I heard that speech, and I heard what she said, and I heard the details--because I think that, like, she had to use the back entrance--
Josh: --then she couldn't even sit with the rest of the cast and yeah.
Tracy: --Exactly. Exactly. Now, when I heard this story for the first time, I was in college. So like it's this like, ‘Burn it all down, fuck the police. [Josh: Mhm] The system is like a joke…’ “Revolution-now” Trace was like, [Josh: Mhm] at the forefront… And so when I learned about Hattie McDaniel's speech, I was just like 'Ugh, this is just like the it's the downfall of, you know, clamoring for white people's attention and [Josh: Yeah] validation. And, you know, how dare she not see that, you know, being a credit to your race is is--'
Josh: A big burden.
Tracy: Exactly. But context MATTERS. [Josh: Mhm.] Context is so important. The words that she said on that stage meant something else when she said them. [Josh: Mm.] You know what I mean? [Josh: mhm.] Like this idea being a credit to your race. I feel like if we look at that speech through today's lens, like we've already had a Black president, you know, we've had a bomb-ass Black first lady--of course a woman saying 'I want to remain a credit to my race' is always gonna sound messy and “house niggery,” or whatever. But consider like this was the first Black woman that a lot of young Black kids that grew up wanting to be actors and grew up needing to see somebody who looks like them, like what did it mean to them to hear those words and to see her on that stage? [Josh: Mhm] You know what I mean? Of course, it was messy. Of course it was clunky. It was a first time that shit was done.
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: You know? You can't do anything perfectly on the first time, on the first try, period.
Josh: And Tyra really did a lot to put competition reality shows like on the map. Like--
Tracy: Listen!
Josh: Once America's Next Top Model hit--
Tracy: there were clones everywhere.
Josh: --There was a cooking America's Next Top Model. There's a fashion [Tracy: Yeah] America's Next Top Model--
Tracy: That's a good point.
Josh: --There's a building cars America's Next Top Model. There's drag race. [Tracy: Mhm] Like all of these things [Tracy: Yeah] do not exist without Tyra Banks.
Tracy: Exactly. And I'm so glad you mentioned drag race because, like, this model is still birthing new babies.
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: You know like, she birthed an amazing thing. She did some dumb shit with it. But, of the like the dumb shit that she did with it, doesn't overshadow I don't think, all of the doors that she opened with it and like the changes that she made just like the impact just by existing and choosing to try and take a risk--cause, like you said, she didn't have to do none of that shit--
Josh: At all.
Tracy: Yeah. Do you know -- did she apologize?
Josh: She did apologize.
[CLIP] Tyra: I apologized for it -- cause we put it out and even me just watchin it after, I was like, ‘Oo, this ain’t right.’ I mean, we felt like our skin’s beautiful, let’s paint the world our color. And then we saw it and we were like, ‘Oh no, this excuses other people to do this in a negative way. So I went on my talk show and did an entire um segment, what we did wrong and we apologized for it. But not everybody saw that Ke...
Tracy: [Sounds of the Tyra talk show episode in background] Also just for the record we want you all to know that we did reach out to Miss Tyra Banks herself to get her comment but she was not available when we made this episode.
Josh: So like, I think, it’s just really hard to like, exist…
Tracy: Period. [They laugh]
Josh: You know? It's OK to acknowledge that, like, you built this thing and also you fucked up while doing it.
Tracy: Mhm. It's OK to do that. And I think it's necessary to do that if you want to keep growing and evolving and stay relevant as long as she has like--if she had just been like, 'Well, look ya'll, it's entertainment. What do ya'll want me to do? Ya'll need to stop being so sensitive.' Or 'I'm sorry if you were offended.' Well, that gets a middle finger because you haven't learned anything from this--
Josh: Right.
Tracy: --You know? And all you are doing now is just sittin' back and profiting off of your willful ignorance. And that's what the problem is. Ignorance itself? Think of all of the things that you don't know right now. [Josh: Mhm] Think of all the things that Tracy doesn't know. Wooo, child. Like if you tell me to go in the kitchen and cook you a lobster, and I don’t have a recipe, and I fuck it up...like, it’s just it’s--I just didn’t know. But I feel like what Tyra did, you know, like we--it feels like she's learning along with all of us.
Josh: I sat my ass down and was watching UPN like everybody else. But like, [Tracy laughs] I think we all got here from somewhere.
Tracy: And I mean, just look at where Tyra is going now! I mean look! Modelland. We’re gonna get you to Modelland one day. I really believe it, Josh.
Josh: I mean, Let’s start a committee. Let’s start an online petition -- Change.org…
Tracy: Okay, you start it and then I’ll sign. [Josh laughs]
Josh: Ok.
Tracy: Ok.
Tracy: Also, she just got a new job?
Josh: Yeah she’s the new host of Dancing with the Stars! So like Tyra is not new to this reality TV thing, she’s true to this. [Snaps]
Tracy: Mm. Come on, spoken word. [Sing-song] We all got here from some-where--
Josh: --Some-where birth-day. [Tracy laughs]
[Music]
CREDITS [51:21]
[Music continues]
Tracy: Um Josh, guess what?
Josh: What?
Tracy: We just finished our very first show!
Josh: Can you believe it?
Tracy: No I can't.
Josh: I can't believe this show is real.
Tracy: It's real. It exists. [Crosstalk] I'm so proud of you--
Josh: And it's over--.
Tracy: [Laughing] And it's over. [They laugh]. Um, I think you did a great job.
Josh: I think you did a great job as well.
Tracy: Oh my gosh, thanks so much. Let's go celebrate. But first, let's do some credits, Shall we?
Josh: Oh ya let's do it!
Tracy: Back Issue is a production of Pineapple Street Studios.
Josh: Back Issue was created by and is hosted by
Tracy: Yours truly, Tracy Clayton.
Josh: And me. Josh Gwynn. Our editor is Emmanuel Hapsis. Our Senior Managing Producer is John Asante. Our senior editor is Leila Day.
Tracy: Our lead producer is Josh Gwynn. I think I know that guy. I think I know that one--
Josh: I think I know him too I think I... [Laughing]
Tracy: Our associate producer is Alexis Moore.
Josh: Special thanks to Andy Hillbrands. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman, Max Linsky.
Tracy: This show features music by the one and only Don Will. You can follow him at DJ Don Will on the socials. You can follow me on the social's @BrokeyMcPoverty.
Josh: And you can follow me @RegardingJosh on all the things. You can follow the show on Instagram @backissuepodcast and tweet about the show! Use the hashtag #backissuepodcast so we can follow along! Subscribe to this podcast wherever free podcasts are sold. Tell ya friend, tell ya family, tell your entanglement...
Tracy: We did it! Come again back next week so we can do it again.
Josh: Please.
Tracy: Woo!
Josh: And thank you.
Josh & Tracy: Bye!
[Music builds and fades]
POST ROLL [52:53]
Josh: [Music: Suspenseful theme] In the pop culture universe, there are those figures that everyone knows.
Tracy: In this episode, any similarities to real people in real life are purely coincidental and probably hilarious.
Josh: In New York City, the dedicated podcasters who use parody as fair use aremembers of an elite squad known as the Back Issue podcast unit.
Tracy: Hopefully, these are your stories. [Music change]
[Music]
Barack Obama: Oh, no. [Phone buttons being dialed] It it happened, why would I lie? [Phone ringing] You know I don't lie. Come on, Michelle, you're just you're being--
Tracy: Back Issue Hotline, what's your emergency?
Barack Obama: Uhh, yeah, hi. I'm calling because, you know, Tyra was in the news again recently, and I was telling my kids about how she actually uhh predicted the presidency of the first black president of the United States of America. They don't believe me. No one does. I feel gaslighted. Uhh gaslit?
Josh: Mmkay, sir. What's your location, please?
Barack Obama: Uhh Chicago.
Tracy: Mmkay, sir. And why is it that you don't think they believe you?
Barack Obama: Well, uh, I think most people don't believe me because it sounds so fu-- [bleeped] ridiculous. Like manyTyra stories.
Tracy: So just so I have this right. You're saying the Tyra Banks basically predicted Barack Obama's presidency. Is that inaccurate?
Barack Obama: Yes.
Josh: Mmmmm OK, sir we're gonna pass this on to our researchers and we'll get you some assistance right away.
Barack Obama: All right. Thank you. Oh. Oh. I just want to say I'm really grateful for this service you're providing. I just love it. I uh... [Singing in falsetto] I'm still in love with you...
Tracy: Ok. And what did you say your name was, sir?
Barack Obama: Uhhhhhh I got to go.
[Phone hangs up and Beeeep]