BACK ISSUE
Remember When MTV Was That Girl? (Feat. Erika Clarke)
Young And Free, I Want My MTV!
This week, Josh and Tracy are talking all things MTV. From ‘The Real World’ cinematic universe to the boom boom kacks of ‘Making The Band,’ they take you through the channel’s best (and messiest) moments. Then, they get a sense of what it was like to work there from Erika Clarke, a former MTV producer who spent 10 years working on iconic shows like ‘Cribs’ and ‘Diary’ (y’all, she worked on the Aaliyah episode!!!).
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION
[0:00]
[Music Begins]
Josh Gwynn : You think you know.
Tracy Clayton: But you have no idea.
Josh Gwynn and Tracy Clayton: This is the diary of Back Issue.
[Music Ends]
Josh Gwynn and Tracy Clayton: November 2nd, 2020.
[0:25 Theme Begins]
Speaker 1: Beyonce? You look like Luther Vandross.
Speaker 2: Ho, but make it fashion.
Speaker 3: You ain't heard that from me.
Speaker 4: Fierce. Can't stop.
Speaker 5: You see, when you do clown, the clown come back to bite.
Speaker 6: (singing).
Speaker 7: It's Britney, bitch.
Speaker 6: (singing).
Speaker 8: We were rooting for you, Tiffany. We were all rooting for you!
Speaker 9: Who said that?
[Music Begins]
Josh Gwynn: Welcome to Back Issue, a weekly podcast that revisits formative moments in pop culture that we still think about.
Tracy Clayton: This week, I'm Tracy Clayton. And welcome to my crib. This is where all the magic happens.
Josh Gwynn: I want my MTV!
[CLIP]
Speaker 10: This is the true story. True story of seven strangers picked to live in a loft.
Speaker 11: I'll win because I worked at Hooters, and now my hooters work for me.
Speaker 12: First, y'all got to walk to Queens and get me a sugar cookie.
Tracy Clayton: Each week, we'll go back into the past and revisit unforgettable moments we all think we remember.
Josh Gwynn: And learn what they can teach us about where we are now.
Tracy Clayton: I'm Tracy Clayton.
Josh Gwynn: And I'm Josh Gwynn.
[Music Ends]
Josh Gwynn: Okay. So, Trace-
Tracy Clayton: Yeah.
Josh Gwynn:... I know that you loved MTV as much as I loved MTV.
Tracy Clayton: I did. Of course. Yes.
Josh Gwynn: So, for some people, it was a place where you could get music videos. Do you remember what a music video is?
Tracy Clayton: A music video...is that things that’s in first aid kits, right? You rub them together and you’re like, “Clear!” Is that what a music video is?
Josh Gwynn: A defibrillator. Yes, but for pop culture.
Tracy Clayton: Yes. Okay.
Josh Gwynn: Got us all excited. I feel like there was a four-year span where all I did was watch music videos. But MTV was more than just music. It had another card up its sleeve that spoke to all of us. We were all obsessed.
Tracy Clayton: What was that card?
Josh Gwynn: Reality TV.
[Music Begins, fades]
Tracy Clayton: I love reality TV.
Josh Gwynn: Oh, True Life.
Tracy Clayton: The Real World.
Josh Gwynn: Room Raiders.
Tracy Clayton: Ew. The Next Bus. Is so nasty.
Josh Gwynn: Ugh. We're going to get into a lot of these shows today. But, as usual, we have a lot to say about MTV in the nineties and the early aughts. But I think that, later, we should bring in someone who was there, who can speak as an insider. Friend of the pod Erika Clarke, who is now the executive producer of original content and development at Spotify, and who spent 10 years at MTV shaping shows like Cribs, like Diary.
Tracy Clayton: She is a legend. I'm sure she has all the tea. I am very, very hyped.
Josh Gwynn : But first let's take a moment and talk about how MTV was that girl. So if you've ever watched any of those documentary shows about the decades, because you were pretending to be sick to stay at home from school or work, then you probably know about the beginning of MTV. So, MTV was launched in the fall of 1981, which is one year before yours truly decided to be born. You're welcome.
Josh Gwynn: Come on. Decision?
Tracy Clayton: I mean, I was just like, "You know what? This womb is cozy and all, but let me make things worse and go see what they doing outside.."
Josh Gwynn: What a bad choice.
Tracy Clayton: So the channel was launched with the image of the Apollo 11 moon landing. You remember that, with the little flag on the moon? Saw my descriptors for that. It was a new concept because it combined "the best of TV with the best of radio."
[CLIP]
Speaker 13: Ladies and gentlemen, rock and roll.
Josh Gwynn: Fittingly, the first music video that ever played on MTV was Video Killed the Radio Star by The Buggles. And they hired VJs, which were like a cross between a DJ and a TV host.
Tracy Clayton: MTV, at the time, relied really heavily on a rock format, which excluded a lot of Black artists, except for those whose influence was too big to ignore, right, so those who had "crossed over." Think Michael Jackson, Donna Summer, Prince, that type.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah, it was so bad that even white folks like David Bowie were like, "Yo, there's a problem."
[CLIP]
David Bowie: It occurred to me, having watched MTV over the last few months, I'm just floored by the fact that there are so few Black artists featured on it. Why is that?
Speaker 14: I think that we're trying to move in that direction. We want to play artists that seem to be doing music that fits into what we want to play for MTV. The company is thinking in terms of narrow-casting.
David Bowie: That's evident.
Tracy Clayton: Whoo.
Josh Gwynn: That's shade. Did you catch it? The shade he threw?
Tracy Clayton: Well, he was like, "That's obvious." I mean, clearly, and the fact that this is a white man, yes, but a British white man, which is the whitest white man around.
Josh Gwynn: Right, right.
Tracy Clayton: He's just like, "Y'all messing up."
[Music Ends]
Tracy Clayton: But you know what? That's a whole 'nother episode. We'd need a lifetime to talk about all of media's racism. So, today, we're going to focus on MTV's shifts toward reality TV programming. This began in the early nineties, when they stopped being polite-
[CLIP]
Speaker 10: And start getting real. The real world.
Tracy Clayton: In 1992. True story. Shout out to John in that damn cowboy hat.
Josh Gwynn: I remember being obsessed with The Real World.
Tracy Clayton: Instantly.
Josh Gwynn: Obsessed.
[Music Begins]
Josh Gwynn: MTV, with The Real World, opened up this idea of bearing your soul, being authentic, means becoming famous.
Tracy Clayton: Right.
Josh Gwynn: What was your favorite season of the Real World, Tracy?
Tracy Clayton: Ahh, my favorite? I feel like mine changes all the time, but most of the time it's Vegas, with Irulan and Alton.
Josh Gwynn: Oh, my gosh. That first episode, where Steven and-
Tracy Clayton: Oh, my God.
Josh Gwynn: ... Tricia, a.k.a. Trasho, and Brynn-
Tracy Clayton: You know it.
Josh Gwynn:... were having basically a threesome in a hot tub.
[CLIP]
Brynn: We’re in the hottub naked. We’re just chilling, naked, in the hot tub. It’s all good. Next thing I know, here comes all three guys in towels around their waists.
Tracy Clayton: In that petri dish of a hot tub. It was just human body fluids seeping. To this day, I'm nauseous right now, thinking about it. And when I saw that, I was like, this season is going to be-
Josh Gwynn: Going to be a mess.
Tracy Clayton:... a mess. Yes. Absolutely.
Josh Gwynn: So according to the story by ABC News in 2008, the hot tub, as a trope, became a staple of The Real World production since season two. Details Magazine reported that hot tub sales in the United States more than doubled each year from 1996 to 2006.
Tracy Clayton: Wow, you know what?
Josh Gwynn: People wanted to have what Brynn, Trishelle, and Steven did.
Tracy Clayton: I did want the hot tub. But that’s where it stops for me.
Josh Gwynn: Then there was Karamo on The Real World Philadelphia in 2002.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, that neither?
Josh Gwynn: Okay. So, disclaimer. We're going to ignore the awful T-shirt that he wore on the red carpet.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, that's the n-word shirt?
Josh Gwynn: Yeah, it said, “nigga” with the A crossed out, then it said, “nigger” with the ER crossed out.
Tracy Clayton: With the hard R.
Josh Gwynn: Then, at the bottom, it said, “neither.”
Tracy Clayton: And then the whole internet was like, “neither, please.”
Josh Gwynn: Girl. But, one thing that you can't take away from Karamo is that he was a lot of people's first time seeing Black queer masculinity on television. And there's this moment that I remember from that show. He goes on a date with Shavonda, which is one of his cast mates. And he ends up coming out to her on the date.
[CLIP]
Karamo: But I'm gay.
Speaker 15: Okay.
Speaker 15: No way.
Karamo: Deadass. So it's always like the biggest thing, always. Seriously.
Speaker 15: No way
Karamo: Serious.
Speaker 15: I would never have guessed.
Josh Gwynn: You can see the whiplash in her face when she's like, "Wait, what?" And then there were these two white-boy, bro-y cast members, and they ask Karamo if he's ever been to a gay club. And he's like, “Yeah, all the time. I go all the time."
[CLIP]
Karamo: Yeah.
Speaker 16: You’re not--are you homosexual?
Karamo: Yeah, I'm gay.
Josh Gwynn: Their faces would have been a meme. Their jaws are on the ground. They cannot believe that this Black man in a fitted is queer.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, my gosh. I remember that. But I have to say that one of my favorite people of the entire franchise-
Josh Gwynn: The Real World, Road Rules cinematic universe?
Tracy Clayton: Yes. Yes, all of that, where they collide in like this big-ass Marvel versus DC movie. It was just so wow.
Josh Gwynn: Right. Right.
Tracy Clayton: It was just like so wow... my favorite, to this day... See if you can guess who it is. Okay?
Josh Gwynn: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy Clayton: I don't wrestle. I fucking beat bitches up.
Josh Gwynn: Beat bitches up! Come on, Coral.
Tracy Clayton: Coral, the queen. Queen Coral, my favorite.
Josh Gwynn: MTV was really it in terms of pioneering reality TV for the youth them, for the children.
Tracy Clayton: The chirrens.
Josh Gwynn:But I also think about MTV's music programming, all of the blocks of music videos that I literally watched for hours. We cannot do this episode without at least mentioning TRL.
Tracy Clayton: Shout out to TRL and everybody who is probably still in Times Square waiting for Carson Daly to come look at the window.
Josh Gwynn: Wait.
Tracy Clayton: "Hi, my name is Vanessa. I'm from Idlesville, Pennsylvania, and I'm here because I love The Backstreet Boys. Whoo." You got to have the whoo. The whoo is a punctuation.
Josh Gwynn: Ahh. That was good. That was good. I always wish I could have gone to a taping of TRL, but I never got a chance.
Tracy Clayton: Also, you know what I did not realize?
Josh Gwynn: What?
Tracy Clayton: Is how many people either got their start as MTV VJs or they were MTV VJs at one point in their careers.
Josh Gwynn: Fifty-leven people.
Tracy Clayton: A whole mess of them, a mess of them. There is Carson Daly, Carmen Electra, Adrienne Bailon, which I still do not remember. Daisy Fuentes-
Josh Gwynn:God, remember Daisy Fuentes?
Tracy Clayton: Those cheekbones.
Josh Gwynn: Ahh.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, and she is still just, so just perfect. Also, Tyrese.
Josh Gwynn: Shout out to Ananda Lewis.
Tracy Clayton: Nanda. I love her so much.
Josh Gwynn: I feel like VJs and video vixens were these sort of proto-influencers-
Tracy Clayton: Oh.
Josh Gwynn: ... a staple of a time gone by. Literally everybody wanted to be them. We wanted to look like them. We wanted to see what they were wearing. What was trendy? What was hot?
Tracy Clayton: They were the first Instagram girls.
Josh Gwynn: Exactly.
[Music Begins]
Tracy Clayton: MTV really was everything, when you think about it.
Josh Gwynn: Everything.
Tracy Clayton: They changed so much of pop culture, so much so that the problem that I'm having is there's just too much to cover. You know what I mean?
Josh Gwynn: Right. Do we cover the VMAs? Do we just talk about the music videos?
Tracy Clayton: Remember all of the animated shows that they had?
Josh Gwynn: Oh, my God. Daria, Beavis and Butthead.
Tracy Clayton: Let's just pick a place to start. Right?
Josh Gwynn: Okay.
Tracy Clayton: So we talking about MTV. MTV is youth culture. Youth culture is the adolescents, more or less. Right?
Josh Gwynn: Right. Right.
Tracy Clayton: And what is more important to the adolescents than dating, hugs, kissing, trying to get some, flirting, etc., etc.? MTV was very heavily invested in this genre of show.
Josh Gwynn: Right. There were so many dating shows, I think, starting with... In 1995, you had Singled Out with Jenny McCarthy.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, my gosh. I used to love Singled Out. And I think it's because I was really impressed by how she manhandled this big-ass group of terrible, awful men. She would let them know, like "Yeah, don't fucking disrespect me like that." And I was just like, "Yeah. You got to do it, Jenny." It was the worst.
Josh Gwynn: I mean, so many people on these shows were the worst. I can't believe that these shows happened. Room Raiders.
Tracy Clayton: Yuck.
Josh Gwynn: Remember that show? And the black light?
Tracy Clayton: Yes. So these were literally messy, disgusting, gross shows. I don't want to see the stains of your bodily fluid illuminated in any color, in any color.
Josh Gwynn: Ahh. Or Date My Mom. Remember that show?
Tracy Clayton:Yes. I wish I didn't. I really do. And then there was Parental Control.
Josh Gwynn: Oh, my God. I hated that. But the messiest one, the messiest-
Tracy Clayton: I already know what you're going to say.
Josh Gwynn: The messiest of all of them was Next.
Tracy Clayton: Ugh.
[Music Change, fades]
Josh Gwynn: Dating. It's brutal. Right? And think about how much more brutal it's become with the apps.
Tracy Clayton: Ugh.
[Music Changes]
Josh Gwynn: Have they helped us at all?
Tracy Clayton: No.
Josh Gwynn: But MTV's level of brutality that they produced with the show Next... Imagine you're on Tinder. Right?
Tracy Clayton: I already hate it. But yes.
Josh Gwynn: And you can see every single time that somebody swipes left on you. That's what Next was.
Tracy Clayton: That's awful.
Josh Gwynn: Right. So, on the show, there's one person who's going on a date with several people. And everyone else is on the Next bus. And they get out, and they introduce themselves. And the amount of money that each dater gets is directly tied to how long they survive the date, which-
Tracy Clayton: Rude.
Josh Gwynn: I mean, a lesson. That's a lesson that you could teach people.
Tracy Clayton: Got to get that free meal.
Josh Gwynn: But there was this one time where there was this girl named Charity. And obviously, the premise of the show is that she has to compete against these four other girls for some random dude. But her biggest opponent ended up being gravity.
[CLIP]
Speaker 19: Charity? You're next.
Josh Gwynn: Okay. Let's start at the visual, Tracy. Okay.
Tracy Clayton: Okay.
Josh Gwynn: So Charity is a product of her time. She might have a Bump It. She definitely has a MySpace scene haircut.
Tracy Clayton: With the little emo, clip-in extension pieces.
Josh Gwynn: And the PC highlights.
Tracy Clayton: That's it. Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: And she falls out of the bus.
[CLIP]
Speaker 20: Now, it's-
Josh Gwynn: And she walks over-
Tracy Clayton: Just slides down on her butt.
Josh Gwynn: Just slides down. And then, she walks over to her potential date, who literally says-
[CLIP]
Speaker 21: I just wanted to make sure you're okay. Next.
Josh Gwynn: She lasted 17 seconds on this date and got $1.
Tracy Clayton: She got $1.
Josh Gwynn: Do you know pissed I'd be?
Tracy Clayton: See, if they cared about that girl, they'd have been like, "You know what? Let's do this over."
Josh Gwynn: Okay. But they don't. And the reason that you can tell that they don't is because they allow her to freestyle poorly in front of her potential date, which zaps any sort of sympathy that I have for her.
[CLIP]
Speaker 23: Hey, homie, yo, I’m your ghetto, funny, suprise. You should’ve recognize, with my exotic look and my erotic ways. You would’ve tried me out in all different ways. So peace out. I’m out.
Speaker 22: Beat it, Biggie Smalls.
Speaker 23: I can't believe I fell and busted my ass, and he didn't even give me a chance.
Tracy Clayton: I probably loved this episode when I saw it.
Josh Gwynn: This show was built off of humiliation. It was built off of how bad and awkward do these people feel in this situation?
Tracy Clayton: And then there was that one episode, it was one of the gay episodes, this particular episode featured a Goth guy named Thomas who is about to meet a figure skater named Manny.
[CLIP]
Manny: Hi, how's it going?
Thomas: I'm Thomas.
Manny: Manny.
Thomas: Hi.
Manny: Next.
Thomas: Aww, are you serious?
Manny: Very.
Thomas: Fuck you.
Speaker 24: Thomas's rockstar looks left him feeling punked.
Tracy Clayton: Wow. I would sue.
Josh Gwynn: Yo, this show was a mess.
Tracy Clayton: BAH-rutal.
Josh Gwynn: The fact that we were being sent the message that it's okay to instantly read someone, and instantly judge them, it doesn't sit well, it doesn't age well.
Tracy Clayton: Especially when white people's favorite quote is Martin Luther King's, you're supposed to not judge people by the color of their skin, that whole thing.
Josh Gwynn: Shh. Don't remind white people of Martin Luther King. They're going to start mentioning him whenever they can.
Tracy Clayton: Well, they do that anyway.
Josh Gwynn: Out of context.
Tracy Clayton: They're doing it right now.
Josh Gwynn: I must say though. My favorite moment of the next experience is when the contestants come off the bus, it freeze frames, and then three random facts pop up on the screen about them. They're just three random-ass facts.
Tracy Clayton: They're so random, and they all sound so fake.
[Music Begins]
Josh Gwynn: So let's revisit some, and we're going to take turns, and we're going to see if we would next these people, or just kick it. (singing)
Tracy Clayton: (singing)
Josh Gwynn: (singing).
Tracy Clayton: You know what?
Josh Gwynn: Okay, I'm going to go first. His name is Matt, has a chronic sweating problem, he's offended by people who eat veal, had sex while talking on the phone to his church pastor-
Tracy Clayton: Question. Need some clarification on that last one, so does that mean that he had sex with his church pastor while he was talking on the phone, or he had sex with someone else while he was on the phone with his church pastor?
Josh Gwynn: I think it's the latter, not the former.
Tracy Clayton: Well either way, I mean, this is no. I just wanted to...
Josh Gwynn: You just wanted the hot goss?
Tracy Clayton: Yeah, that's all. I just wanted the deets. I'ma say no. And honestly, it's not even the pastor part, it's the sweating part for me. Next up, we have Pierce.
Josh Gwynn: I like the name Pierce.
Tracy Clayton: You like the name Pierce?
Josh Gwynn: I do.
Tracy Clayton: Oh. Because of Pierce Brosnan?
Josh Gwynn: Exactly. You know me so well.
Tracy Clayton: Oh I say. Not mad at it. Okay. Pierce. Works at Outback, he's never been on a plane, and he dated a guy with a colostomy bag.
Josh Gwynn: He would absolutely not get a next from me at the beginning. From the get go, I'm seeing Outback, I'm seeing blooming onions-
Tracy Clayton: I'm seeing that pumpernickel bread. That's when I was like, yeah, we're going to kick it. You got the hookup at Outback? Shit.
Josh Gwynn: And he dated a guy with a colostomy bag. That says to me that he is not superficial-
Tracy Clayton: He got a good heart.
Josh Gwynn:... and he has a good heart, and he deserves a chance. Okay. One more, Tracy. His name is Brett. He hates hand sanitizer-
Tracy Clayton: Next.
Josh Gwynn:... he's obsessed with Nicole...
Tracy Clayton: It's a pandemic, things are different now. Go ahead though, I want to hear the rest.
Josh Gwynn: So he hates hand sanitizer, he's obsessed with Nicole Richie, and he pees outside wherever he can.
Tracy Clayton: So the whenever part, the pees outside whenever he can makes me feel like we're going to be at the park somewhere, and he's just like, "Yo man, I don't really have to pee right now, but-
Josh Gwynn: "But I want to."
Tracy Clayton: ... It's, "I really want to pee right now."
Josh Gwynn: These two things can't go together. They can't go together. How do you pee outside whenever you want, but you don't use hand sanitizer, Brett?
Tracy Clayton: No, you have to go. You have to go. That was fun.
Josh Gwynn: That was a fun game.
Tracy Clayton: That’s why we’re still single (singing).
[Music Ends]
Tracy Clayton: So, besides the dating shows, we also have to talk about another game show. Maybe you remember it, I don't know. It was called Punk'd.
Josh Gwynn: There were so many iconic moments on Punk'd. Brittany Spears rapping to Ashton Kutcher.
[CLIP]
Britney Spears: I take that back, I’m just tricking, you see ‘cause when I show my belly everybody copies me. (singing)
Ashton Kutcher: Yeah they do.
Britney Spears: (singing) But I’m just Britney Spears and I got all this power.
Josh Gwynn: Beyonce looking at her nails after knocking down that Christmas tree in front of all them kids?
Tracy Clayton: "Beyonce, why did you ruin our christmas?"
Josh Gwynn: And she just looked at her nails, like, ooh girl.
Tracy Clayton: She just smiling.
Josh Gwynn: Zach Braff beating that kid's ass for spray painting his new car.
[CLIP]
Speaker 25: Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Zach Braff: What do you think you're doing? What the fuck?
Tracy Clayton: That was the episode when I was like, all right, somebody's going to get hurt doing this shit. Then there was that time when Missy was in that jewelry store, and she was standing on top of a glass display case.
Josh Gwynn: The episode when they lost her jewelry. She was not okay.
Tracy Clayton: She was like, "You got to the count of 10, before I get up here and break your whole shit."
[CLIP]
Speaker 26:You need to bring it down a bit, okay?
Missy Elliot: Don't think you need to put your finger or your hand back.
Speaker 26: Let's just wait. The security's on it's way [inaudible 00:20:44].
Missy Elliot: Put your hands... Bring your hands back, take a chance.
Speaker 26: No, but you're inside of my store.
Missy Elliot: Bring... Bring... Bring... You have my jewelry.
Speaker 26: Okay, and I'm getting your jewelry back.
Missy Elliot: Okay, you have my jewelry.
Speaker 26: I'm going to get it back to you.
Missy Elliot: Then go get it back. Go get it back.
Speaker 27: Do you understand that?
Tracy Clayton: Why would you ever punk Missy Elliot? I'm not trying to get on that bad side, ever in my life.
Josh Gwynn: That sounds like awful karmic energy. But I think it's time we take it back to the roots. The thing that MTV was known for.
Tracy Clayton: What?
Josh Gwynn: Music.
[Music Begins, fades]
Tracy Clayton: I don't remember music. I do love a music video, I really do. I loved them back in the day. But the first thing I think of when I think of MTV and music is Making The Band. Oh my gosh. Top quality drama.
Josh Gwynn: We used to have watching parties for Making the Band.
Tracy Clayton: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: But making the band didn’t start on MTV. It started on A-B-C, and they started this band call O-Town, who had the songs like Liquid Dreams, and All or Nothing At All.
[CLIP]
O-Town: (singing) ‘Cause I want it all or nothing at all.
Josh Gwynn: But then MTV took over Making the Band and they gave it to Diddy, who decided to start it off with a group that he would call Da Band, which was an ensemble. It had Sarah, who was a vocalist, it had Ness, who was--
Tracy Clayton: An east coast rapper. He was the one who sounded like a Timbaland boot and a hoodie.
Josh Gwynn: A Timbaland boot and a hoodie. It had Choppa, who was like no limit. It had Babs, who was the female Timbaland boot with a heel, from that era.
Tracy Clayon: Boots with the heel!
Josh Gwynn: And then it had Dylan, Dylan, Dylan, Dylan and Dylan.
Tracy Clayton: Five Dylans!
Josh Gwynn: And it was really great but when I think of Making the Band I think of the next season, which is actually when he started the group Danity Kane.
Tracy Clayton: Also top quality drama.
Josh Gwynn: They had a lot of break ups and a lot of makeups.
Tracy Clayton: They have been through it.
Josh Gwynn: They’ve been through it and through it and through it but they started their relationship by going through it and through it and through it.
Tracy Clayton: That’s true.
Josh Gwynn: The thing that lives rent free in my mind from Making the Band 3 is people love talking about Aubrey O’Day. They love talking about Dawn Richard. They love talking about Diddy. They love talking about D. Woods sometimes. But my favorite person was Boom Boom Kack A.K.A Laurieann Gibson. So the internet named her Boom Book Kack because of her way of expressing counts. Instead of going 1-and-2-and-3-and-4, she used to make sounds, which I totally understand. And she started her career as a fly girl from In Living Color.
Tracy Clayton: Shout out to In Living Color
Josh Gwynn: And she was a choreographer who worked with Michael Jackson, Alicia Keys, Beyoncé. She was even Lady Gaga’s creative director for a little while, and she was the director of choreography for Bad Boy Records. Let me tell you, her and Puff used to put those girls through it.
Tracy Clayton: Oh God.
Josh Gwynn: I have a very vivid memory of her making the girls, who would become Danity Kane, audition and dance over and over and over to the choreography set to 1,2 Step.
[CLIP]
Speaker 27: It was getting frustrating. What is that? What is going on up there? How are going to learn 10 songs?
Tracy Clayton: This was when I was like, "Oh, I couldn't be a dancer." I already knew I couldn't be a dancer, I didn't need the confirmation, but I was just like, leave them alone. They couldn't sit down. I always think of when Diddy fired on live TV, D. Woods and Aubrey O’Day. On live TV
[CLIP]
Diddy: I don't want you in the group no more. And anybody else that doesn't want to go with can go with them. Based on a lot of things that I've heard, you're not really a happy camper in this situation.
Speaker 28: No. I don't think anyone has been happy for a long time in this situation.
Diddy: Okay, so you could go too
Speaker 29: And with that, it was over.
Josh Gwynn: I remember being like, is this real? Do they really not have jobs anymore? Is Danity Kane really over?
Tracy Clayton: And you know what, I feel like today will not be the last time that you utter those words.
Josh Gwynn: Exactly. But after Making The Band 3, you had Making The Band 4, which featured an all-boy group called Day26.
Tracy Clayton: Or as I like to call them, Willie and the rest of them.
Josh Gwynn: Willie and the boys?
Tracy Clayton: Yes, Willie and the boys. Aside from Willie just being gorgeous, something that I always think about when I think of Day26-
Josh Gwynn: I know where this is going.
Tracy Clayton: I'm sure you do. It's one of my favorite moments, not just in Day26 history, not just in Making The Band history, it's one of my favorite reality show moments of all time-
Josh Gwynn: I think it's in my top five, for sure.
Tracy Clayton:... period. Absolutely. It was the sing off, the battle sing off where you got the original Day26 members in the house, Diddy brings in some more dudes to kind of shake them up, like get them a little scared, and he was like, "All right, we're going to have a sing off."
Josh Gwynn: "None of you are safe."
Tracy Clayton: Exactly. And then this man, I just remember cornrows and a white tank top, and he starts singing Gone by N-Sync, but he does it as if he's battle rapping, so we got, like, the hip-hop hands... Right?
[CLIP]
Speaker 30: I see Bri, he's stepping up in front of me. I ain't no punk, so I'm going to step up in front of him.
Speaker 33: (singing).
Tracy Clayton: And then he would try to ad-lib at the end, and I was just like, "What is he doing?"
Josh Gwynn: But my favorite part of this clip is when the boys responded on the other side of the table, and they were ready for this challenge, like they were going to war, and they're going to war singing End of he Road by Boyz II Men.
[CLIP]
Speaker 31: (singing).
Josh Gwynn: There's people in the back, like, “Woo” just hitting that.
[CLIP]
Speaker 31: (singing).
Josh Gwynn: Although we’ve come (singing).
[Music Begins]
Tracy Clayton: (Singing) --To the end of the--and then the little short dude in the front, just like goes off at the end. He's just like...
Tracy Clayton: (singing). Just like, yeah-yes, you better do it!
Josh Gwynn: It was everything I've ever wanted in a reality television moment in my life.
Tracy Clayton: What a mon-! Do you think that we're ever going to have a moment like that again in reality TV?
Josh Gwynn: I hope so.
Tracy Clayton: I hope so too.
[Music Ends]
Josh Gwynn: But none of these shows lasted as long as the behemoth, Cribs, which started in 2000 and outlasted all your faves. Still running to this day even though now it's on Snapchat.
Tracy Clayton: People still use Snapchat? Well, shout-out to them.
Josh Gwynn:I will never forget the Mariah Carey Cribs.
Tracy Clayton: Oh my gosh. That is like, talk about aspirational. That was where I was like, "Okay. All right. I'm trying to be this one right here."
Mariah Carey: We have little gold leaf designs on the floor. That's a little M behind you. See that?
Tracy Clayton: I'm trying to be this one right here.
Josh Gwynn: The closet!
Tracy Clayton: Yes!
Josh Gwynn: The walls that were glazed like candy. The most comfortable couch in all the land!
Tracy Clayton: The stair stepper...
Josh Gwynn: Yes!
Tracy Clayton:... in them heels! That's not how you use that Mariah. That's not how you do that. And she was just like, "Yes, it is." And I was just like, "Teach me." I love all these big glitzy glamorous episodes of Cribs, but I got to say one of the best, epic, like top two episodes, maybe, is Redman showing us...
Josh Gwynn: Yes!
Tracy Clayton:... his two bedroom, Staten Island apartment.
Josh Gwynn: Regular, degular, schmegular.
Tracy Clayton: Regular, degular, schmegular, nigga shit is what it was. He had a cousin sleep on the floor and I was like, "You know what? I see myself on MTV finally."
Josh Gwynn: I get it. Real nigga shit.
Tracy Clayton: Exactly.
[CLIP]
Redman: I got an ironing board right here. I ain't ironing on the floor right here. It's easy and watch TV at the same time.
Josh Gwynn: He was giving us authenticity.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah. And he was also, in retrospect, highlighting we just were regular people.
Josh Gwynn: It was a critique of capitalism, Tracy.
Tracy Clayton: Bam. See, that is what I was trying to say. And you were just like... You right, you right.
[Music Begins, fades]
Josh Gwynn: Tracy. I could spend all day talking here about Cribs, but I think it's time that we ask someone who knows a little bit more than we do. So after the break, we're going to talk to Erika Clarke, who's currently the executive producer at Spotify Studios, but she spent 10 years at MTV where she developed Cribs and worked on some of the most iconic episodes of Diary, including Aaliyah, after the break.
[Music Fades, changes]
[29:57 Interview with Erika Clarke Begins]
Erika Clarke: So when I got to MTV, it was like Mecca. I swoon about that place. I am so lucky I was there when I was. It was a great time to just sort of be like young and getting your foot in the business because it was like trial by fire. It was just like, you got thrown in the pool and you figured it out.
Josh Gwynn: Tracy and I wanted to talk to someone who worked at MTV when it was popping during the late '90s, early aughts. Erika Clarke is currently an executive producer at Spotify Studios but between 1996 and 2007, she worked at MTV on iconic shows like Diary and like Cribs. We asked Erika what it was like to work at MTV during its heyday.
Erika Clarke: My boss, when I was doing Diary of Aaliyah, I was scared. I was like, "You're letting me do this?" And he was just like, "Don't forget to press record. You'll be fine. Bye." Like he was just like, "You got this." And it was just that thing of being a young creator, having this place that sort of trusted you to do that.
Josh Gwynn: I remember when I was little, when people would ask where I wanted to work, I was always like "MTV" because it was what was cool. It was what was grown up. It was what was pop culture. What drew you to want to work at MTV and stay there for 10 years?
Erika Clarke: I'm like a pop culture junkie. I was that person that was like, "I'm going to watch every single award show."
Josh Gwynn: Yes!
Erika Clarke: And I would call my best friend the time Vanessa and we'd be on the phone watching the Grammys and like my mom's boyfriends would call and I'll be like call waiting, "I don't know her." But I would never like... "Did what's his face call?" "No, he didn't. Don't worry about it. I got to see who wins Best New Artist." But then I wanted to work at MTV and for like two years in college, I kept sending applications. I'm like, "This'll be it. I'm going to do it." And no joke, broadcast news writing class... Y'all remember The View? Like the very first season of View? Debbie Matenopoulos was in my broadcast news writing class.
Tracy Clayton: What?!
Erika Clarke: And she was a PA at MTV. And she's like, "If anyone wants to intern at MTV, let me know. I'll get your resume in there."
Josh Gwynn: Oh, my God!
Tracy Clayton: Wow!
Erika Clarke: So I was like, "I do, I do." And she was like, "Oh yeah, I'll give you like... No worries. Just give me your resume." The next day the internship coordinator called me.
Tracy Clayton: Wow.
Erika Clarke: So shout-out to Debbie Matenopoulos.
Tracy Clayton: What an origin story.
Erika Clarke: And I remember, I think I was doing Diary of Aaliyah and literally she was on the red carpet doing something and she's like, "Girl." And I'm like, "Girl." It was our Whitney, Natalie Cole moment. That was it.
Tracy Clayton: I love it!
Josh Gwynn: What a gift. I completely understand what you mean now.
Tracy Clayton: What shows, MTV shows in particular, of course, would you say epitomized your youth?
Erika Clarke: I love the Real World. Like the Real World was like season one. Don't even, I was just like, "Are you a drug dealer?" Like every time. I was obsessed with 120 minutes. I love the alternative music shows. There was a show called Remote Control, which was a great show.
Tracy Clayton: I remember Remote Control!
Erika Clarke: Remote Control! Yeah. I just watched videos. I would record the video. God, I am 95 years old. I'm about to say like, "On my VHS." But the Real World was that thing.
Tracy Clayton: Favorite season of the Real World?
Erika Clarke: Oh, Seattle was good when he threw that teddy bear into the water, but I'm still old school. I love the first season. I just loved Heather B. I live for Heather B, Heather B and Julie. Their friendship was beautiful. I loved it.
Tracy Clayton: It reall was. That might be one of the first interracial friendships that I saw like that.
Erika Clarke: That's another example of Real World right there where they just let them be. And people are like, "That's boring." I'm like, "I don't find it boring. I find it exciting because I get to be nosy in someone's life."
Josh Gwynn: You were with MTV from 1996 to 2007. So you saw the development of a bunch of iconic shows. The timing is right so that you saw the shift of MTV from playing primarily music based content to more reality based content. What was that shift like?
Erika Clarke: I think when I was there, it was still music based because we were doing like Ultra Sound. It was like this show called The Deal That Changed My Life." And your Cribs, your Diary, MTV still had their DNA year by year we probably saw gradually change.
Tracy Clayton: Speaking of Cribs, you were part of the development team for the series. Is that right?
Erika Clarke: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: Which, thank you for your contribution.
Erika Clarke: I feel like a patriot. No.
Tracy Clayton: You are though. I'm pretty sure you are. Because I feel like before that we knew that celebrities were rich, but we didn't know what that looked like. How did that idea come about?
Erika Clarke: I remember at one point someone was talking about like, "Something like InStyle and a home tour." This was the time on MTV people had an idea and people were like, "Okay, try it." But at the same time, it wasn't like people were just letting us in their houses.
Tracy Clayton: What? You mean you didn't just show up and then they just were like, "Oh, hello. I wasn't expecting you as I sit here in my fancy clothes with my champagne."
Erika Clarke: That said though, one of the first, I think it might've been the first one I did, Steve Harwell Smash Mouth, allegedly his publicist didn't tell him it was a home tour. He thought it was an interview. Yes. So that nice man was like, "Oh, well I got to be in" cause he lived in Vegas. "I got to be in LA in like three hours. So if you can get it done." But he was just like, "I didn't really know this was a home tour."
Josh Gwynn: Wow, and he let you in his house?
Tracy Clayton: I just... Let me tell you the extent to which y'all would've got put out of my house. I don't know what else to say.
Josh Gwynn: Like Martin?
Tracy Clayton: Exactly. Like this room is clean.
Erika Clarke: Why are you here?
Tracy Clayton: I got drawers on the floor. You're going to have to come back later. I will say that before we hopped on this call, I went to the YouTubes, and I typed in the word Redman. And the fifth suggested entry was Redman: MTV Cribs.
Josh Gwynn: It seemed like every episode was lifestyles of the rich and the famous. But for our generation, Redman's episode was the opposite of that. It was like, "I'm normal as fuck."
Erika Clarke: I was in the post for that one. I think when everyone got there, they were like, "Oh. Okay." I think that was that point where people were like, "Oh, personality." He was just so funny. He was like, "Sure, come in my house. I'm not going to do anything beyond what I usually do." And Sugar Bear was asleep. Like that was not an act. That's what happened. He had a money box.
Tracy Clayton: Right.
Erika Clarke: Can I tell you my biggest regret?
Tracy Clayton: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: What?
Erika Clarke: I don't remember what Cribs I was on at the time, but I missed the Patti LaBelle one. And to this day it breaks my heart. I'm happy for the producer. I see you, Lorenzo. But to this day she's like, "Yeah, she cooked for us." And I was like, "I know she cooked for you."
Tracy Clayton: She cooked?
Josh Gwynn: Of course she did. It's miss Patti.
Erika Clarke: That is like my biggest Cribs regret that I didn't get to go to Patti LaBelle's home.
Tracy Clayton: I mean that's a pretty cool regret to have.
Erika Clarke: I feel like that's like peak first-world black regret.
Josh Gwynn: Welcome to the club. The club of people who have never been to Patti LaBelle's house.
Tracy Clayton: What is another Cribs episode that you worked on that surprised you?
Erika Clarke: Richard Branson going to his island
Josh Gwynn: Oh, my God.
Erika Clarke: Don't even like that was-
Josh Gwynn: Wasn't Mariah Carey on that episode?
Erika Clarke: Mariah Carey was there.
Josh Gwynn: She was just staying at a back house or something.
Erika Clarke: Just being Mariah Carey, the legend. And let me tell you right now, couldn't have been nicer. What he was like, "Let me carry that bag for you." I said to him, "You are the nicest billionaire I know. I'm like, well, sir, you're the only billionaire I know." Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: Another episode I think about, and I wonder if you worked on, was the Carmen Electra episode.
Erika Clarke: Yes, sir. Carmen Electra. First off, she at one point was a Prince protege. So therefore she becomes a legend always.
Josh Gwynn: Right. Right.
Erika Clarke: But simple fact of the matter is her neighbor was Apollonia and I was dead. D-E-A-D, yes.
Tracy Clayton: Was she home when y'all were recording?
Erika Clarke: Apollonia came over, knocked on the door with her dog with one of those cones, and was like, "Hi, I'm Apollonia." And I'm in my mind going, "Yeah, I'm very well aware you're Apollonia."
Tracy Clayton: Wow.
Erika Clarke: I was like, we are the world. This is amazing.
Tracy Clayton: We truly are the children.
Erika Clarke: Like, wow. Like, wow, wow, wow, wow. But yeah, I have nothing but the greatest stories, because it's not a regular interview. You're going in people's homes and they are just sort of like-
Josh Gwynn: They feel like you're on their turf. Yeah.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah.
Erika Clarke: Yeah. You're on their turf so please take off your shoes and make sure you don't leave our house dirty. And we never did. Thank you very much.
Tracy Clayton: Wonderful stories indeed.
[Music Begins]
Josh Gwynn: Can I talk to you about one of my favorite pieces of MTV programming ever?
Erika Clarke: Sure.
Josh Gwynn: You worked with Aaliyah on this episode of Diary that came out right around the time of her death and Aaliyah was so mysterious. And in this episode you just got to see her be human and it came out at a time when we were like really mourning her. So what did it mean to make something so intimate about someone so iconic that was timed so closely to when she passed?
Erika Clarke: You know, it puts a lot of things in perspective because you're not thinking anything like that's going to happen. She was very mysterious and I think it was private. When we were doing Diary, it was just one person with a camera, we were mic-ing them, we were fly on the wall and that was the objective and the point. We were really embedded with her and her brother and then her team who were so protective and loving of her, you sort of wanted to also respect that. Because it's like this young woman had lived a lot of life already at such a young age. And I was just so impressed by what a professional she was. And I also, as this young black woman who carried herself so well, I wanted to sort of respect that as another black woman. To go back to your question, it was bizarre and it was sad. And it was one of those things again, where we had just filmed with her and we want it to be as respectful as possible. To this day, I love that show. I wanted to show the fun she was having because she truly loved her fans. Like that was not put on. She really loved her team. She could not have been kinder and more what you want a pop star to be. I was just like, you know?
[Music Begins]
Tracy Clayton: When you were talking earlier about making sure that it was respectful and respecting her status as a pop icon and as a black woman, I think that all of that really came across very well, which is why I think Diary, which is such a more intimate sit-down and conversation.
[Musiv Fades]
Tracy Clayton: So you’re actually in a really unique positon, where you were a part of first wave MTV reality shows and working shows like Cribs and Diary but then, you’re also a part of that second wave , which includes really big franchises including The Real Housewives of New Jersey? And you worked on season one?
Erika Clarke: Yes.
Tracy Clayton: I feel like the difference of working on a show like Diary and then going into a show like Real Housewives of New Jersey had to be jarring for you.
Erika Clarke: That was a whole different ball game. I produced Danielle. That lady made sure when the crews came over, were there snacks and was there water. She was so nice. Like, I am not kidding. She was so nice to the crew, but yeah, that was... And I was there for the table flip before you ask me, so yes.
Josh Gwynn: So when you saw Teresa Guidice flip that table, were you just like, cut, check, Emmy. Give it to us. Did you know what you were watching?
Erika Clarke: My first thought was, oh Lord, did some glass fly on anybody? I ran out. I ran out and ducked, so no one-
Josh Gwynn: Are we going to get sued?
Erika Clarke: Uh-huh (affirmative). And then, I was like, oh wow. All these cameras got all this. It was wild, because I always used to joke with a couple friends that one day I was going to flip a table. And I remember calling one of my friends, afterwards, and I'm like, "Yo, the dream just came true. I just saw it too." She's like, "What are you talking about?" I'm like, "Teresa just flipped a table."
Tracy Clayton: Wow.
Erika Clarke: But it was literally such a surprise. You don't expect someone to flip a table. I was like, wow, maybe I'm not built for this. This is deep. It’s wild. My tombstone will say, “And she was there for the table flip.”
Tracy Clayton: Can we have more fun facts and juicy tidbits and behind the scenes stories.
Josh Gwynn: I just want a hit list.
Tracy Clayton: Yes.
Erika Clarke: The most embarrassing is it was Usher. It was record release at a club on Bowery. I'm trying to get a shot of the whole club. So I get on his table-
Tracy Clayton: What?
Erika Clarke:... and I accidentally kick a bottle of Cristal off the table.
Tracy Clayton: Oh my gosh, that's a million dollars.
Erika Clarke: And it's Lil John's bottle of Cristal-
Tracy Clayton: Oh my god.
Erika Clarke:... and he looked at me with just such sadness in his eyes. And I was like, "I'm sorry."
Tracy Clayton: Was he like, "No. No. No. No. No."
Erika Clarke: Oh, girl. Let me tell you, that okay went away real quick. He went back to Lil John that was Jonathan-
Josh Gwynn: Lil Jonathan.
Tracy Clayton: He went back to John John. Oh no.
Erika Clarke:... like, "Ma'am, really?" He was just like, “Ugh.” And then Usher just looked, and he was like, "It's okay. He can afford it."
Josh Gwynn: Aw.
Tracy Clayton: Oh my gosh.
[Music Begins]
Josh Gwynn: So what do you think made the shows like Diary and Cribs and all the MTV programming from that era so resonant? And why do you think that we're still talking about them now?
Erika Clarke: I think a lot of it was the access, at that point, probably felt very kind of new. And I think with Diary, it was another example of the fact that it wasn't necessarily just a press tour. It was like, "I'm at their house. They're taking their dog walking. They're visiting family."
Josh Gwynn: It was proto Instagram Live.
Erika Clarke: Yeah. And it was behind the scenes. It's sort of like it wasn't as glossy. It resonates because it was before social media. This was not something people did every single day, and they had to decide I'm going to let you be embedded with me. And I don't think any of us thought, “Oh, we're going to be talking about Cribs 20 years later. This is wild.
Tracy Clayton: Isn't it?
Erika Clarke: It's 20 years.
Josh Gwynn: MTV, especially when you were working there, was the center of everything considered youth culture. And I don't think MTV is that place anymore, necessarily. I don't know if people are going to MTV now, in the way that they used to, in the 90s and the 2000s. What do you think that our culture is missing without MTV being what it was?
Erika Clarke: Things have changed so much that I don't know if one thing can be the defining place for youth culture now. When the media landscape and when society and culture gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, one entity can't take it all. Everything is everywhere. We have influencer culture. Or is it you know you're on Fairfax in LA, and is it the Hypebeast? Is that where you're finding stuff? It's everywhere. How do you keep up? Where is that thing, that touchstone?
Tracy Clayton: This has been illuminating, enlightening, and such a joy.
Josh Gwynn: Where can people find you on social media?
Erika Clarke: Oh, you can find me at misserikaclarke. That's M-I-S-S-E-R-I-K-A-C-L-A-R-K-E.
[Music Fades]
[46:00 End of Interview with Erika Clarke]
[Music Begins]
Tracy Clayton: We have now come to that part of the party, where we try to make Tyra Banks proud and learn something from this
Tracy Clayton: So Joshua.
Josh Gwynn: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy Clayton: Did we-
[CLIP]
Speaker 32: Learn something from this!
Josh Gwynn: I think we did learn something from this.
Tracy Clayton: What did we had learnt?
Josh Gwynn: One of the things that I keep thinking about is how much of a fool's errand it is, to try to establish a business that is the center of youth culture. At its prime, MTV catered to young Millennials, and the Zoomers, they don't really fuck with it like we did. And so what does it mean for a station built on youth culture if they're no longer relevant with the youth? And I think that that's a problem that's intrinsic with the model, right? If you're building a media organization or a company or whatever, and you want it to be centered in what youth culture is, youth culture, by definition, is always going to change, depending on the next kids that come up and what they're experiencing and what they're going through.
Tracy Clayton: And their situation, yeah.
Josh Gwynn: And they're going to either rebel and want to be in opposition to what the people that came ahead of them are, and so the fact that MTV doesn't exist in the same way that it did, when we were younger, I think it used to make me sad. But now I think that it makes me excited because the kids, the youth, they're going to take what they're going to take and what they consider cool, and they're going to establish a new set of rules and a new set of kids that are cool and a new set of music that they want to listen to. And that music is going to be what they wake their kids up on Saturday to clean with, and the cycle of life goes on.
Tracy Clayton: Lil Yachty.
Josh Gwynn: Can you imagine somebody waking their kids up with Lil Yachty to clean on Saturday?
Tracy Clayton: No. I cannot.
Josh Gwynn: But one day. One day it will be so.
Tracy Clayton: I mean, we shall see. Another thing that I learned is that the world and how we express youth culture, today, would be so different without MTV. Even though appointment TV is dead, even though MTV doesn't play the kind of role in the lives of kids today, like it did ours, it still sort of guided the things that we wanted out of life, right? All these aspirational shows, that sort of made us so hungry for more exposure to the lives of celebrities, which we get with social media, for better, for worse, sometimes for much worse.
Josh Gwynn: Worse.
Tracy Clayton: But all of this and talking to Erica made me wonder what would life have been like if there was no MTV? What would we be doing now? Well, I mean ... I don't know. Is it a butterfly effect thing?
Josh Gwynn: Yeah. At that time, we didn't have the technology for where we got our music and pop culture stuff from to be democratized. I mean, there were how many channels in the 80s, you know what I mean?
Tracy Clayton: If you didn't have cable, like me, there were four.
Josh Gwynn: And so MTV played a really, really pivotal role in being this large gathering place where everyone came, I mean, where white people came and then eventually black people came-
Tracy Clayton: Bloop.
Josh Gwynn:... to share what they thought was cool and share the music that they were working on and the music that they thought was good. But, now, there's not as much of a need. And I think that that's okay.
Tracy Clayton: I also mind that they used to play music videos, which is just wild.
[50:03 Outro Music Begins]
[CREDITS]
Tracy Clayton: Back Issue is a production of Pineapple Street Studios. Wooo!
Josh Gwynn: This show was created and is hosted by Tracy Clayton.
Tracy Clayton: And Josh Gwynn. Our lead producers are Josh Gwynn and Emmanuel Hapsis.
Josh Gwynn: Our managing producer is John Asante.
Tracy Clayton: Our senior editor is Leila Day.
Josh Gwynn: Our associate producers are Alexis Moore and Xandra Ellen.
Tracy Clayton: Our intern is Briana Garrett. Special thanks to Gabrielle Young.
Josh Gwynn: Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss Berman and Max Linksy.
Tracy Clayton: This show features music by Donwill. You can follow him on all the socials @djdonwill. And you can follow me, on all the socials, @brokeymcpoverty.
Josh Gwynn: And me, Josh, @regardingjosh. Subscribe to this podcast wherever free podcasts are sold. Tell your lover, tell your friends, tell your enemies, and in the spirit of TRL, if you like this podcast, vote it up. Give us a 5-star review, It really matters.
Tracy Clayton: See you next week, woo!
[Music Fades]
Tracy Clayton: Everybody keeps calling me a house shoe, but I tell them, "I'm a slipper."
Josh Gwynn: Girl, you a slide. You a slide. Don't let nobody tell you different.
Tracy Clayton: Oh gosh.
ENDS [00:51:25]