BACK ISSUE
Remember The Audacity of Daytime Talk Shows? (Feat. Sherri Shepherd)
Give Me A Break, You Ain't No Ricki Lake
This week, Josh and Tracy take you through the world of daytime talk shows and unpack the fun, the messy, and the hard-to-reconcile parts of shows like Ricki Lake, Oprah, Jerry Springer, and Jenny Jones. Then, they sit down with Sherri Shepherd, Emmy-winning former host of ‘The View,’ to discuss why being on that show was the best and most painful experience of her career and what it was like to sit between Rosie and Elisabeth during that unforgettable split-screen showdown.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION
[0:00]
Speaker 1: Beyonce? You look like Luther Vandross.
Speaker 2: Ho, but make it fashion.
Speaker 3: You ain't heard that from me.
Speaker 4: Fierce. Can't stop.
Speaker 5: You see, when you do clownery, the clown comes back to bite.
Speaker 6: (singing).
Speaker 7: It's Britney, bitch.
Speaker 6: (singing).
Speaker 8: We were rooting for you, Tiffany. We were all rooting for you.
Speaker 9: Who said that?
[Music Begins, changes]
Josh Gwynn: Welcome to Back Issue.
Tracy Clayton: A weekly podcast that revisits formative moments in pop culture that we still think about.
Josh Gwynn: This week? Our favorite daytime talk shows.
Tracy Clayton: You get a podcast. You get a podcast. You get a podcast. Everybody gets a podcast!
Josh Gwynn: AHHHHH!
Tracy Clayton: And bees!
[CLIP]
Speaker 10: Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Ricki Lake!
Oprah Winfrey: It’s my favorite things 2007!
Maury Povich: When it comes to five month old Elijah, Johnny -- you are not the father.
Speaker 11: Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!
Tracy Clayton: Each week, we'll go back into the past and revisit unforgettable moments that we all think we remember.
Josh Gwynn And learn what they can teach us about where we are now.
Tracy Clayton: I'm Tracy Clayton,
Josh Gwynn: And I'm Josh Gwynn.
Tracy Clayton: And this is the Ricki Lake Show.
Josh Gwynn: Go Ricki!
Tracy Clayton: AYYYYY!
[Music Ends]
Josh Gwynn: So Tracy, I know that you were obsessed with daytime TV.. I was obsessed with daytime TV.
Tracy Clayton: To this day.
Josh Gwynn: Can you tell me when your obsession started?
[Music Begins]
Tracy Clayton: There was a time in my life where pretty much my days revolved completely around my stories. AKA daytime TV talk shows. Early nineties, 93, 94 95. Right? So I am 10, 11, 12 years old. Okay. But in the middle of the day though, I was an adult. You couldn't tell me nothing. That's how I felt anyway. And that's because of daytime TV talk shows. When I tell you that I got hooked, I'm talking about, I set up my own personal VCR to record my very favorite shows. So there's Donahue, who is like this older white dude that’s kind of woke-ish for the time. Then they're Sally Jesse Raphael. Sally was like just the messy auntie who comes to Thanksgiving dinner and brings up everybody's embarrassing like situations like, “Oh,
so you're still with Cheryl. Didn't Cheryl sleep to wash the dishwasher?” And everybody's just like, “My kids are here, Sally.” Then there was Maury Povich who, believe it or not children listening to this show, I know that his name is now synonymous with paternity tests, but Maury for a time would be like the fun uncle who comes through and maybe he'll give you a little sip of beer when your mom was not looking like, “Eh, it's all in fun. Let's play some games.” Then there was Jerry Springer. Jerry Springer would be the one that you do not invite to any family functions, but he shows up anyway with his loud ass new girlfriend. Jerry was trash, just complete, unadulterated trash. And then there's Geraldo, which is somehow worse than Jerry. He's the one who comes to Thanksgiving and you call the cops. Cause you're like, “I have a protective order against you.” So, I am a kid who now has like a glimpse and a window into adulthood. And I am a Kentuckian who has a glimpse into city life, because a lot of these shows were taped in New York city. I don't think I had a sense of being isolated. I think that younger Tracy was looking to stay connected to the world and what was happening as it was happening. And going back to a time where my only responsibility was knowing how to set my VCR to record is just nice.
[Music Fades]
Josh Gwynn: Tracy, I love the fact that you were obsessed with daytime talk shows.
Tracy Clayton: Mmmhmmm.
Josh Gwynn : I was obsessed with daytime talk shows too. Back in the day, what you were doing was you were getting in like a little private eavesdropping into all the cool group chats.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah!
Josh Gwynn: And like now you're using it to avoid your phone.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah. Time truly is a flat circle.
Josh Gwynn: But I think that we learn a lot about what culture was saying in the early aughts from these talk shows and how they existed in the nineties.
Tracy Clayon: Yeah, for sure, they're like little bitty time capsules. And it's also interesting for me to watch how daytime TV talk shows have progressed through the years. For example, do you know where tabloid TV talk shows even originated from, like how long have they been on the planet?
Josh Gwynn: No idea.
Tracy Clayton: That answer is incorrect. I am sorry.
Josh Gwynn: Wait, it is correct. I have no idea.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, true. My bad, my bad, you know, I get competitive. You know how I do.
[Music Begins]
Tracy Clayton: Well, the first tabloid TV talk show premiered in 1954. There was a man named Les Crane. He had a late night talk show and it was the first one to actually establish the structure that we know now, which is where there's a host and the host talks to ordinary people, everyday people about something that's just so over the top and sensational, and back in the day, the, over the top and sensational guests, would you like to guess who they were?
Josh Gwynn: This is the fifties, right?
Tracy Clayton: This is 1954. Yes, indeed.
Josh Gwynn: So black people, like people who are of different races, I'm guessing.
Tracy Clayton: What I read about it was that it was like black celebrities and also gays and lesbians.
Josh Gwynn: Ooooo cutting edge.
Tracy Clayton: And especially with 1954, according to Wikipedia, Les Crane is actually the first person who interviewed an openly gay man on the air.
[CLIP]
Les Crane: You say that homosexuality is not a sickness.
Speaker 12: And it's not contagious.
Les Crane: And it’s not contagious.
Speaker 12: You are or you are not a homosexual. It isn't something you become by choice.
Les Crane: You see, I have to differ with you. I have to argue with you on that one point there.
Tracy Clayton: Every time I revisit a talk show, Sally or Ricki or Jenny or whoever, like I get nervous because I'm like, I know it's going to be some bullshit. I know it's going to be offensive. I know it's going to be terrible. So child, listening to that in 1954. I just--
Josh Gwynn: But that's what makes it useful. Right? It's like, that's what makes it a really good barometer for how far we've moved with culture or what direction culture has gone because of the visceral reaction that you have in your body, when you watch it today, you're like, “Oh wow. That was not okay.”
Tracy Clayton: This is also a good way to create empathy, perhaps. Looking back at what people had to go through in the fifties--I'm sure that like, it was not comfortable for that man to be interviewed--you know, because another hallmark of these shows, it's a very aggressive interview style, you know?
Josh Gwynn: Sensational. Gotcha!
Tracy Clayton: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So to watch something like that and just be able to see what people had to go through in the way that they had to carry, you know, it was just like, man, I hate that for them. I hate that for y'all. But yes, Les Crane is the person to either thank or curse for this format and what became daytime TV talk shows.
[Music Fades, Changes]
Josh Gwynn: So fast forward to the late eighties, nineties. That's what I think of as the golden age of the talk show. What was happening? What were they talking about?
Tracy Clayton: So, around this time is when you see a lot of stories about infidelity. I watched an episode of Sally just yesterday, about women who had affairs with their bosses and then were fired immediately afterwards. Child, it was messy.
Josh Gwynn: I’m sure.
Tracy Clayton: It was interesting. Yeah, I know. So there's that. There was race, and race was a huge topic. And of course like this is the early nineties. So there's so many areas that had not been peaked into or talked about. Interracial dating was a really big one.
Josh Gwynn: Oh God.
Tracy Clayton: And then there was this phase, like even before that, where they kept inviting clan members onto their shows. I remember Jerry Springer had one and Jerry Springer was about to get into a physical fight with this man. So they went to commercial break real quick and he came back and he apologized.
Josh Gwynn: Oh wow.
New Speaker: So there was that, there was an episode of Geraldo, of course, where he got hit in the nose, with a chair, broke his nose.
Josh Gwynn: Can you send this to me? I have reasons that I might want to put it on loop in my house.
Tracy Clayton: Absolutely, whatever can help with your self care.
Josh Gwynn: You know... (Laughs).
Tracy Clayton: But, yeah, what happened was he just invited a whole bunch of Klans members onto the show. And this is when they would show up in full ghost costumes.
Josh Gwynn: Yikes!
Tracy Clayton: It was so bad. And he also, of course, had black people sitting just like right next to him. And of course. Shit pops of people start fighting, Geraldo's in the middle of it, somebody picks up a chair and throws it. He gets hit in the face and his nose is all bloody and smashed up. And what I hate the most is he was like, “No, no, no, keep going. Let’s just keep going. I can do it. I'm fine.”You can see in his head that he's like calculating, like the ratings and what it's going to do for his show, you know what I mean? And it just makes me feel so gross.
[Music Ends]
Tracy Clayton: So let's fast forward a little bit to what may have been my very first talk show that was Donahue.
Josh Gwynn: Okay.
Tracy Clayton: So Donahue was an Oh gee man.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Tracy Clayton:I don't know if people realize it because I didn't realize that his show was on the air for nearly 30 years. His angle was more newsy and current events more so than like Jenny Jones and Ricki Lake, because he would have Louis Farrakhan on.
[CLIP]
Phil Donahue: Donahue two-part program featuring Mr. Louis Farrakhan.
Audience Member: I would just like to say that I am terrified that even you, someone who is obviously educated, has given up hope completely, like when you call upon us you say “white folk.” You say Black people, Jewish people. Why can’t we just come together. We obviously can come together. We just have to find a way to do it.
Louis Farrakhan: The desire is good but the reality is the total opposite of your desire, and unfortunately, as a young lady, you are not in the position of power to make the decisions to make America work,
Tracy Clayton: And it was kind of like, you know, here's, what's going on in the world today versus you slept with your sisters, right. While he was in the room, what the fuck.
Josh Gwynn: Vesus what is the most crazy thing that you could think of happening to a person?
Tracy Clayton: Right. Exactly. Those shows that you just mentioned were my favorites. The ones that are what the fuck is this? Where did they find you people?
Josh Gwynn: Uh huh.
Tracy Clayton: My two favorites were Ricki Lake and Jenny Jones. Like they are just like top tier trash, daytime talk TV. It was just so good.
Josh Gwynn: I loved Ricki Lake. Tell me what you love about Ricky Lake.
Tracy Clayton: Okay. First of all, there are the titles of the episodes...
Josh Gwynn: Iconic.
Tracy Clayton: ...which are just so ridiculous. Like sometimes they would rhyme. They would just always be like what white woman is trying to write in slang.
[Music Begins]
Tracy Clayton: Okay. So let's do a quick quiz if you are game.
Josh Gwynn: Okay, let’s do it.
Tracy Clayton: I have in front of me, pairs of titles for Ricki Lake episodes,
Josh Gwyn: Uh huh.
Tracy Clayton : One of them will be an actual title of an actual episode of the show that actually aired. The other is something that I made up. You have to tell me which one is the real Ricki Lake episode title.
Josh Gwynn: Let's do it.
Tracy Clayton: Let's start with this first one. I slept with your mom. It's true, but I want to marry you.
Josh Gwynn: Ok.
New Speaker: Or I'm gay, but today I want to going the other way.
Josh Gwynn: I think the second one is real.
Tracy Clayton: I’m gay but today I want to try going the other way?
Josh Gwynn: Mmmhmmm.
New Speaker: You are correct!
Josh Gwynn: Yay! I like this game already.
Tracy Clayton: Okay. Let's turn up the heat a little bit.
Josh Gwynn: Ok, let's try it.
Tracy Clayton: You got Off welfare, big deal. I get free money and I'm keeping it real.
Josh Gwynn: Oh my God.
Tracy Clayton: Or mirror, mirror on the wall. I'm the hottest drag queen of all.
Speaker 3: I'm going to go with the drag queen one because that's what I want it to be. That's what I would watch.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, I'm sorry. We do not live in a utopian society.
Josh Gwynn: Ughhhh.
Tracy Clayton: The right one is the welfare lady.
Josh Gwynn: Of course it is.
Tracy Clayton: The first one does feel more real because there was this obsession with the idea of like a welfare queen or whatever in the nineties. And that was a big talk show topic.
Tracy Clayton: Uh huh. I just hope that all of the people that were on the episode were white. That's all I hope.
Josh Gwynn: You know, that's not true.
Tracy Clayton: All right. Shall we do one more?
Josh Gwynn: Let's do one more.
Tracy Clayton: All right. Your choices. You dissed me when I was fat, but now I'm back and I'm all that. Bars on bars on bars.
Josh Gwynn: Okay.
Tracy Clayton: And your other choice, Cinco de Mayo.
Josh Gwynn: That's it?
Tracy Clayton: That's it.
Josh Gwynn: I feel it's Cinco de Mayo.
Tracy Clayton: It's Cinco de Mayo!
Josh Gwynn: I knew it!
Tracy Clayton: Also. I would like to cap this off with my absolute favorite. Excuse me, girl. Don't be misled. You're a pigeon, a hoochie, or a chicken head. She gave you options. Love it.
[Music Ends]
Josh Gwynn: So other than the titles, what else did you love about Ricky Lake?
Tracy Clayton: I loved that there were so many black people on this show. They were just so funny. I just love to hear people get read.
Josh Gwynn: I mean, it's fun.
Tracy Clayton: They always came with some fire. I was like, I need to remember this one in case I get a constant on the school yard by the time. “Well, actually girlfriend. you ain’t all that and a bag of chips,
Josh Gwynn: Snaps in the Z formation.
Tracy Clayton: Exactly.
Josh Gwynn: But now when you think about the role that black folks played on these shows, how does it make you feel? Do you feel different?
Tracy Clayton: I do, it's really uncomfortable. Because the first thing that I think of looking back is why was there not a black show that was like the hub for black people in this way? You know what I mean? Because black people loved to this day, some Ricki Lake, some Jenny Jones, you know, but like the hosts, all white. Of course, there were other shows that followed. Queen Latifah. had a couple of shows. Ananda had a show. There was Montel Williams. Robin Givens had a show for a while. Tempest Bledsoe.
Josh Clayton: Oh! Tempest Bledsoe did have a show! She looks really cute.
Tracy Clayton: I loved her hair. That's all I care.
Josh Gwnn: Me too, me too.
Tracy Clayton: But like, I mean, those shows didn't stick around, you know?
Josh Clayton: Right.
Tracy Clayton: so that dynamic, it just feels really exploitive.
Josh Gwynn: Do you think that shows like this and like Jenny Jones aged well?
Tracy Clayton: For the most part, no, these shows and like the way that they present the people that they're relying on for their entertainment, the danger, isn't just philosophical. For example, the Jerry Springer show, which as much trash as I consume, even I was like, “No thanks. This is just a little bit too much.
Josh Gwynn: Limits.
Tracy Clayton: Seriously, and before it even got to that point. I can remember so vividly how many shows--it wasn’t just Jerry Springer. There were so many shows that were focused on making transfolks a spectacle rather than focusing on their actual stories and lived experiences and treating them as humans.
Josh Gwynn: It was all just what cis people thought of trans people and what their facinations were, which is ugh.
Tracy Clayton: So gross, so gross. And they would be on the show to tell their mate that they were born male, and as soon as they heard that, of course, they reacted violently. And of course, seeing violence against trans people normalized in this way makes people feel like they have the green light to treat trans people like that too.
Josh Gwynn: And it also legitimizes the premise that all of this violence is tied to, which is that these people are lying. They're faking. They're not real. They're pretending, they're trying to deceive you. And it’s crazy that in the 90s, this was used for entertainment.
Tracy Clayton: This is something that’s been used in real court cases and real courtrooms.
Josh Gwynn: Real effects.
Tracy Clayton: Exactly. Impact, and wildy enough, it got mainstream attention from the Jenny Jones Show. A show that Jenny loved to do was “Surprise: I have a crush on you” but of course, this is the 90s. So if it's like a same sex crush, oh my God. The audience is going crazy and the ratings are going to be wild. And so this one guy named Scott brings this guy named Jonathan and another female friend of theirs to the show. And Scott is there to confess his crush on Jonathan. Before Jonathan comes out, Jenny is pushing Scott for salacious details, like, “Do you fantasize about him? Like, what do they include? What would you want to do? Like champagne, time up, you know, shit like that. And that's before he gets out on stage.
Josh Gwynn: Mmmmhmmm.
Tracy Clayton: So dude comes out on stage, he sits down and you can already tell, he looks nervous, right? Jenny's like, “Go ahead. Scott has something that he wants to tell you.” And Scott's like,
“I have a crush on you.” And then Jenny played the clip of Scott talking about like whipped cream and tying up or whatever that Jenny had gotten him to talk about. And so all of that, Jonathan just kind of like loses his shit. He's really embarrassed. He's uncomfortable. I don't know if it was just, you know, your standard homophobia. I don't know if he had some inner issues he was going through or whatever, but long story short, he goes and he buys a shotgun. It's not like he had the shotgun. He went out to buy the shotgun to intentionally shoot and kill this man.
Josh Gwynn: Yikes.
Tracy Clayton: And gay panic was the defense. How fucked up is that?
Josh Gwynn: Extremely fucked up. This instinct in the 90s for shows to focus on what was salacious, what was the lowest common denominator, what was going to sell the most things, had real life impact. People always talk about how we need to focus on the interiority of people and give people the right to exist in 360 and to be full versions of themselves, and this is why, because when you focus on the salacious, it has real impact and those impacts affect the people involved and also people within these marginalized communities. And so when we think about the 90s talk show, the salaciousness of the talk show format and how exploitative it was. Everyone did it, everyone participated, even--
Tracy Clayton: Uh oh--do we need to take a break?
Josh Gwynn: I love her but she will be the first to admit that she stuck her toe in but was like, “Nah, I’m never going to do that again, fam.” And I’m talking about Oprah! When we think of Oprah today, we think of this character who’s larger than life, who hands out cars, who has her favorite things. But she didn’t always start that way. She is a human being who was coming up in this industry and had to figure it out for herself. She talks this extremely pivotal moment in 1988, where she had skinheads on her show as being the moment where she reevaluated her platform and what she was doing.
[CLIP]
Oprah Winfrey: I just heard what you said. You just said, I don't sit with monkeys. You think because she's black because I'm black. We're monkeys is that it?
Audience member: It's a proven fact. That's a proven fact.
Oprah Winfrey: It's a proven fact that I'm a monkey? Go ahead, go ahead.
Audience member: First thing I want to say--
Oprah Winfrey: No, no. I want to talk about this monkey stuff.
Tracy Clayton: She talks about this episode as being the one that changed the way that she talks about race on the show. And it also made her realize how influential that she was, the power of her platform. And she was just like, “You know what, there's enough out there. I need to use this for good, basically.”
Josh Gwynn: Right. Exactly. Like her intention was to point out the holes in these skinheads' logic. But instead what she did was she gave them a platform to espouse this bullshit. And I don't think she ever looked at her show and her platform the same.
[Music Begins]
Josh Gwynn: Oprah really pivoted and really changed this format from being a reflection of what was currently happening in America to something she thought should happen in America, where she thought we should go. Obviously the first thing that I think of is the legends ball.
[CLIP]
Announcer: Mary J. Blige. John legend, Tina Turner, Maria Shriver, Alicia keys, Diana Ross, and more. Oprah Winfrey's legends ball.
Josh Gwynn: Did you know the origin story of the legends ball?
Tracy Clayton: I actually do not know. Tell me.
Josh Gwynn: Okay. So Oprah forgot to invite Cicely Tyson to her birthday one time. Instead of just inviting her to your next party, she decides to have her over and then one thing leads to another and then another thing leads to another. And then all of a sudden she's having a garden party, brunch luncheon with the iconic legends of our lives.
Tracy Clayton: So you try and tell me that the gathering of the likes of Tina Turner, Maya Angelou, Diana Ross...
Josh Gwynn: Everybody. It all started because Oprah forgot to invite Cicely Tyson to her birthday.
Tracy Clayton: Wow.
Josh Gwynn: So she has this big ass luncheon party and they're all just passing the mic, literally singing impromptu, like it's church. Here, Shaka Khan, pass it to Gladys Knight
[CLIP]
Oprah Winfrey: These legendary singers blew us away and not one note was planned or rehearsed.
Josh Gwynn: All of these singers. And then you, one of my favorite moments is Maria Shriver, who somehow got an invitation to this iconic moment in Black history. And she's sitting over here talking about, “I was just like, I hope they didn't pass me the mic. Girl, if we wanted to hear Ring Around the Rosie, we would pass you the mic. But Gladys Knight is sitting right there. How dare you?
Tracy Clayon: Also, how did she get there? How did she get there? One of the most iconic moments for me was James Frey. The guy who quote unquote wrote that book A Million Little Pieces.
Josh Gwynn: What is the truth?
Tracy Clayton: So what happened was James Frey had wrote this book called a million little pieces and it was all about addiction and recovery. And it was very moving and you know, that it was moving because in 2005, Oprah picked it for her book club.
Josh Gwynn: Right.
Tracy Clayton: She only puts books that are moving in her book club, right? Since people trust that Oprah, of course, that trusts the authors, right?
Josh Gwynn: Right.
Tracy Clayton: So everybody believes this story. And then like three months later, there was a report from the smoking gun. Remember that website? Is it still up?
Josh Gwynn: Oh my God, yeah.
Tracy Clayton: The smoking gun at the time was big on uncovering scandals and hoaxes. And so they released a report called the man who conned Oprah.
Josh Gwynn: Oh, do you know how pissed she had to have been to see that title?
Tracy Clayton: I wouldn't tell anybody. I came up with the title if I did.
Josh Gwynn: Written by redacted.
Tracy Clayton: Exactly. Exactly.
[CLIP]
Oprah Winfrey: First of all, I wanted to start with, with the smoking gun report titled the man who conned Oprah. And I want to know were they right.
James Frey: I think most of what they wrote was pretty accurate. Absolutely.
Tracy Clayton: James Fry's book was largely exaggerated, which to me, this is like some lying ass shit , white dudes just be lying. They just be lying.
Josh Gwynn: And getting away with it and failing up.
Tracy Clayton: Ugh!
New Speaker: This is one of those moments that really sticks with me. It's just like Oprah feels crossed And she's like, “You know what? You messed with the wrong one.”
Tracy Clayton: Absolutely. Absolutely.
[Music Begins]
Josh Gwynn: So one thing that we know for sure is that Oprah is a legend. She had like 4,500 episodes of her talk show. And that includes tens of thousands of interviews. Cause you know, a lot of times she had a bunch of people up on that stage. Not everyone can do what she does. Like that's why she's Oprah. She used to do this little segment at the end where she would just sit there and let people ask her questions. And somebody was like, I'm going to name my daughter Oprah after you. And she was like, no, no, no, don't do that. There's only one Oprah. And I've got this covered.
Tracy Clayton: Bloop!
Josh Gwynn: But knowing your worth right?
Tracy Clayton: Seriously.
Josh Gwynn: It led to a lot of other people being like, how do we make a show that fits in this space? But it's different somehow. Enter the ensemble: The View…
[CLIP]
Barbara Walters: I had this idea for a show. Different women. Different points of view, maybe a little too different. We call it The View.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, you love the view so much.
Josh Gwynn: I love the view.
Tracy Clayton: Okay. So walk us through why.
Josh Gwynn: The thing about the view for me is the way that it really reflects its time. So you had Sally, Jesse Raphael, you had Ricki and the gang, and they fulfilled this need for salaciousness. And Oprah pivoted that need for salaciousness to content, with depth and aspiration and spirituality. The View, which premiered in 1997, and is still running, came at this moment where the wave was more about making room for women to speak. And the show really reflected that you had Barbara Walters, who Oprah will admit she started her career imitating.
Tracy Clayton: Really?
Josh Gwynn: She said that she had to stop. Cause one time she said, instead of saying Canada, she said Canada.
Tracy Clayton: (laughs)
Josh Gwynn: She was like, “I had to start being myself.” But on The View, you had Barbara Walters and her panel of women who all represented different ideological viewpoints and they get together and they have coffee on daytime television.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, was coffee part of it?
Josh Gwynn: I mean, they all have mugs. Okay.
Tracy Clayton: So, I've seen the view. I'm into it. But I don't know all of its ins and outs and like rotating cast members and stuff like you, Joe.
Josh Gwynn: I could write you 30 page thesis on the movement of the people within the view ecosystem. But if I were going to explain to someone what The View was, if they've never seen an episode, I would point them to this clip.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, I know what it is,
Josh Gwynn: Between Rosie O'Donnell.
Tracy: I knew it.
New Speaker: And Elizabeth Hassleback.
Tracy Clayton: Oh man…
[CLIP]
Elizabeth Hassleback: They're your thoughts, defend your own insinuations.
Rosie O’Donnell: I defend myself, but every time I defend them, Elizabeth, it's poor little Elizabeth that I'm picking on.
Elizabeth Hassleback: Poor little Elizabeth is not poor little Elizabeth.
Rosie O’Donell: Right. That's why I'm not going to fight with you anymore because it's absurd. So for three weeks you can say all the Republican crap you want.
Josh Gwynn: They started fighting. And the producer said go and they put up that split screen.
Tracy Clayton: Is that the first time that that happened,
Josh Gwynn: They have like a wide shot and you can see like the different people at the table. But this is the first time that they put up a visual indicator that these people are fighting. It's this side versus this side.
[Music Fades]
Tracy Clayton: I until now did not realize like what a big line of demarcation the split screen was. What were the implications of the split screen happening?
Josh Gwynn: What's happening on the show was a representation of what was happening in the country.
Tracy Clayton: Right.
Josh Gwynn: Rosie was very cognizant of how she showed up on that show, how she used her platform on that show. She was one of the first people to make fun of Donald Trump on national television.
[CLIP]
Rosie O’Donnell: He's the moral authority. Left he first wife had an affair and left. The second wife had an affair, had kids both times, but he's the moral compass for 20 year olds in America.
Josh Gwynn: She said it herself. They were going to play it like Rosie was the villain. And because Elizabeth Hasselbeck represented this era of Republican politics where it was about family values and being chaste. That is what the Republican party was at that moment. If the split-screen hadn't happened, people might not have left, which means that the show wouldn't have gone and pivoted in the different directions that it went to. And then it might not end up where it is now, as a heavy political analysis show that people underestimate because it's a panel of women in the daytime. There isn't a presidential candidate for this year that did not go on The View.
[Music Begins]
Josh Gwynn: think this is the allure of daytime talk TV. Like it gives us the space to live out these micro parts of our personal lives and our collective lives and what we think society looks like and what we think it should look like.
Tracy Clayton: Mmmmhmmm.
Josh Gwynn: Sometimes it's in small, problematic doses, especially in the nineties, but it's getting better. And I think that the tide is turning. Like if you think of Donahue to the nineties, to what The View is doing right now, the tone is very different. The content is very different. The level of thoughtfulness feels different and it makes me feel like we're moving as a culture.
Tracy Clayton: After the break, we talked to former co-host of The View, the booked and very busy Sherri Shepherd. About why being on the show is the best and most painful experience of her career, and we get the tea on what it was like to be in the middle of the Rosie and Elisabeth splitscreen showdown. How was that alliteration? Answered for you. It was great. Stay with us.
[Music Changes]
[30:45 INTERVIEW WITH SHERRI SHEPHERD BEGINS]
Tracy Clayton: Firstly and foremost, thank you so much for being so generous with your time, especially since The View is like his favorite shit ever ever ever.
Josh Gwynn: It's my shit.
Tracy Clayton: We're so excited to have you here.
Sherri Shepherd: Thank you.
Josh Gwynn: The View is such an iconic show. You can tell that it was iconic and impactful because there were people that were trying to replicate the formula.
Tracy Clayton: Down to the names: The Real, The Talk, The Chew.
Sherri Shepherd: Oh, don't get it twisted. When Wendy Williams is like, “We're going to do hot topics” I was like, “Hey bitch! Wait a minute. You going to blatantly take our name. That's our brand!” Oh we were not happy at all. Like how are you going to actually look in our face and take hot topics? That's not yours, but you know, Barbara Walters used to say t's very flattering because it all started with us. Even down to the names, the talk, the real, the, this, the that, you know, it's, everything is an offshoot. The View was the one that started it all
Josh Gwynn: Prior to the view where you a big daytime talk fan?
Sherri Shepherd: Oh my gosh. I loved daytime talk. You know, I used to watch Ellen when she first started. And then back when I was with my grandmother She had The Phil Donahue Show on, reruns of Dinah Shore or Merv Griffin. And she used to watch, she used to watch Johnny Carson. I was always, I love pop culture talk shows. So yeah, I loved it. Absolutely.
Tracy Clayton: When you started at the view, were you already a fan of the show?
Sherri Shepherd: I was a fan of the show. As a matter of fact, I was doing a show called less than perfect with Andy Dick and Zachary Levi who's in Shazam and Eric Roberts. And everybody on the show got on The View except me. They would not book me on The View because Bill Getty, the co-creator of The View, didn't think I'd be able to talk for five minutes. So they would never ever book me and even being on a big show on ABC, I was not able to get booked on the view because they didn't know who I was. And he did not think that I had enough to talk about to last for five minutes. It was only because Johnny Cochran, that sounds terrible, had passed away ,and star Jones had to fly to his funeral very quickly. And that was really one of the days that my publicist said, call going, “Hey, can I talk to you about Sherri Shepherd again?” They had nobody scheduled. So they were like, “Okay, we will give her a chance to sit at the table because we have nobody.” You don't get ready when the opportunity comes, you have to be ready,
Josh Gwynn: Stay ready. Yeah. Yeah.
Sherri Shepherd: And I was on bedrest with my son, Jeffrey, my, uh, OB GYN. She said, you can't fly. And I said, am I going to have the baby in the plane? On the plane? No, but you shouldn't. I was like, well, as long as I won't have the baby, I'm going. Cause I don't know when this opportunity is going to come again. And I flew out there, did it, came back home and they wanted me out the next week. Wow. So I did it maybe 19 times, filled in. Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: Thank God you did. Because that lineup is one of the most iconic view lineups of all time. It was just like such a great chemistry that you guys had. Um, and fast forward to August, 2020, when you were talking to People magazine, you said that the View was the most painful experience that I've ever gone through, but it was the best experience.
Sherri Shepherd: Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: Why was it painful and why was it the best experience?
Sherri Shepherd: It was painful because I was out there in New York for the first time I had no friends, the ladies, it wasn't that they were mean to me. It was so wonderful to me, but they all had lives. So when the View ended. They went home and now I was on a show where people knew my name. Like before I was, are you at black girl on that show? So now it's, Oh, you Sherri Shepherd! What you're doing in Macy's, Sherri? That wasn't a lot for me. Plus, I was going through a divorce at the time and the custody battle flying back home every week. It was so much coming to me. And then I had this woman named Barbara Walters who was so hard on me. Barbara Walters is a perfectionist. She grew up in a time period, where she was the only woman. So she had to fight.
Sherri Shepherd: She was hard. And I came from a place of, I just made everybody laugh. Now I got this woman going, you gotta know about politics. You gotta know about history. You gotta know, you gotta jump in and ask the questions, you know? And I was like, it's, it's so much. Yeah, she was very hard on me. And I cried. I would go in my dressing room when we finished. And I would cry. When Obama came in for the very first time we sat there and Barbara said, you answer question one. What? Number two, Joy. You’re three Elizabeth, you’re four, Sherry answer seven. So when we sat there, I was like, we're going to go in order. As soon as they came on, it was a free for all. And I was, it was like, yeah, it was like playing double Dutch and I couldn't get in. I couldn't get in. And so the type of person I am, if you don't let me talk, then I'm going to sit here and pout, I didn't say anything. And then Barbara called me down and she said, “Why didn't you ask your question?” And I said, “Cause everybody I'm trying to follow the rules. “And she said, “If you don't open your mouth, you will never get in. I will eat you alive. Learn to speak.” Now when a woman is looking at you going learn to talk, dear, read a book, dear.
Josh Gwynn: Oh God.
New Speaker: It's intimidating.
Tracy Clayton: Like aunties at church. It's Barbara Thee Walters.
Sherri Shepherd: Barbara don't play. She's she's very hard on you will be, was hard on me. But I used to say, why are you so hard on me? Why are you? You know, you're not hard on Elizabeth like that. Now I completely understand. It was like she was protecting me. There is a very famous, famous rapper. And there was a story about a child custody child support issue. And so we came in hot topics and I was like, I want to talk about this. Cause he did it. And Barbara Joy was like, “Yeah, let's talk about it.” And Whoopi said, “We're not going to talk about that.” So Barbara said, “Well then if Whoopi doesn't want to, we're not going to.” And that was hard enough to get my stuff up to the table. Cause you had to pitch your behind off Barbara. She had a big saying, who cares in Wyoming? Meaning you got to take it out of New York and LA to the middle of the country. If they don't care about it, we're not doing it. So you had to have an angle for everything. And I went into Whoopi's room. Yeah. I was like, “You always doing this to me. Why you, We can't talk about my thing.” And she said, “Darlin, if Elizabeth Hasselbeck goes to a club and she sees this particular rapper, ain't nothing gonna happen. Not a thing. He wouldn't dare. However, if you go in a club and there is an incident, nobody may get involved because this is black on black thing. So we are not going to do that because actors and entertainers and rappers, they have long memories. And you my dear are going to go further than this show right here. You are going to work beyond this show right here.” And I was like, yeah, and she's right. There is a thing of being strategic on a talk show. I appreciate that Whoopi looked out for me in that way and gave me all of that advice. When, when they wanted me to host the newlywed game, I was offered that. Back then you didn't see a lot of celebrities doing it. And so everybody said, that's going to mess up you as an actress. Whoopi came back in my room and she said, “Let me tell you about these in MFers.” She said, “I hosted the Hollywood squares. Nobody is going to pay your son's bills, his private school, his therapy, none of these in MFers will send you a card at Christmas. So eff em, you go hold your head up high and you do the newlywed game.” And I did four seasons of the newlywed game. It's still airs. It was able to pay all my lawyers fees.
Josh Gwynn: Come on.
Sherri Shepherd: And it's stuff like that that I appreciate about Karen Johnson. Well, if it goes, but I'm going to tell you it was the best experience. And that Barbara helped me. When I started the View my voice was way up here and high like this. Now it's like this. Barbara helped me find my voice. And that is from Barbara looking at me, going, “Read a book.” I can talk politics with you. 24/7. I love politics. I came a long way from going, “I don't know if the earth is round or flat.” And that was because of Barbara Walters. So that's why I said it was one of the best experiences of my life because I learned to be a grown ass woman. I evolved into a grown ass woman and I made a lot of mistakes, mistakes I made because we're live and you don't have a net. There is no editing.
Josh Gwynn: Speaking of it being completely live, one of the most iconic moments that I think of when I think of the View was the moment between Rosie and Elizabeth, that you were there for it. I would love to know when it started getting real. And when you could see that there was a split screen up, what was your thought process? Were you like? Uh, is this really happening?
Sherri Shepherd: Yeah, it was. Uh, and I'm sure you were horrified, like what the heck is going on, but I'm going to tell you, even before that it was a lot of tension that secured my job, actually. That is what made them hire me because I was supposed to do one day and Kathy Griffin was supposed to do one day. And so I got the day and when we walked in, it was just tension. You could cut the air with a razor knife. It was just uncomfortable. All our hair and makeup team were black women. So I said to them, I said, I said, does anybody speak in tongues? And Karen, our four time emmy-winning makeup artist, said, “I don't speak in tongues.” I said, “All y'all black people!”
Josh Gwynn: (laughs)
Sherri Shepherd: I mean, I was like, whatever is going on here is so spiritual. I don't know what is, I mean, so it was all of that before we even got to the table. Elizabeth and Rosie were on opposite sides of the room. And so when we sat at that table and we, you know, having a good time and then all of a sudden it just was like, boom. Then they did this split screen at the time. I didn't think it was that big of a deal. We went to break. I said to Joy, “We need to make them laugh.” We need to pretend like we're getting up, walking away. That's what it was. And so she was like, yeah. So we pretended. We pretended like we're getting up. The crowd laughed. Because if you could see the crowd that it was look, it was like kids looking at their parents physically fighting. It was horrific. Layla Ali was a guest on later. And I remember Layla was like, “Y'all is crazy over here.”
Tracy Clayton: (laughs)
Sherri Shepherd: Layla goes, “I ain't had no boxing match this bad.” But Alicia Silverstone was shaking like a leaf. That's how bad it was. And then Rosie said to me, she said, “I can't take this no more. I'm glad you were here.” And afterwards Elizabeth was going off on Rosie. Rosie was like, “I can't take this. I'm so outta here.” And I don't think she came back. I don't think Rosie came back after that. It was crazy. But what happened, why I got the job was because Kathy came on the next day and nobody wants to talk about it. And Kathy kept trying to bring it up, bring it up. And nobody wanted to talk about it. Also, all of these news outlets were calling me. We'll fly you in to discuss it. And I kept saying, “My name is Bennett. I ain't in it.” And I was like, that's none of my business. So what Bill Getty and Barbara liked was the fact that he said, “You did not make the view everybody's business.” Kathy was banned for like a year. She didn't come on the view for it, but it was about a year or two. And because of that very thing, cause she would tell stuff that went on in the hot topics room. That was the thing, whatever we said in the hot topics room was sacred-- you could say racist jokes. It did not leave. And Kathy would tell. And so that is what got me the job. They loved the fact that I knew how to keep my mouth shut.
Josh Gwynn: I know that you've talked a lot about how you respected the people that you were working with because you weren't getting paid as much as you thought you deserved. And they helped you in terms of negotiating what you were actually worth..
Tracy Clayton: Oh my God, I love these stories.
Josh Gwynn: Is that something that happens a lot in this space in terms of people actually helping each other?
Tracy Clayton: And the mentoring!
Sherri Shepherd: The mentoring is one thing, but it's been very close. As far as salary, people are very reticent to talk about what they make. You know, because we, you know, they, they make us scared. They make us scared. Like if I tell you what I make, then I'm not going to be able to get, you know, they're not going to give it to me or it's going to be taken. And so people don't want to talk about their salary. I am one that is a believer in that because Rosie O'Donnell, I was screaming this to the moon, what they offered me was less than what Elisabeth Hasselbeck was making. And I love my girl, but what Lizzie was making, she was working with Puma. She had done Survivor. I came with credits to my name and I was getting offered less. And I knew that because Rosie contacted me and she said, if you need any help. And I said, Rosie, I'm not trying to be crazy greedy. It's not enough to live in New York with what they're offering me. I remember they only wanted to give me 7,500 to relocate. And I'm like to relocate it’s just not enough. I got a son with special needs and a nanny and me. And so Rosie O'Donnell literally was like, “This is how much I make. This is how much Joy makes. This is how much Elizabeth makes. So you need to now go in and ask for what I make.” And I did and I went back to Rosie. I was like, they said, “Bitch, are you crazy?” So that amount is not working. So she told me to come down. She said, get perks. You know, you got to go see your son every week. So they ended up giving me like 10 first-class tickets to fly back every week and then eight coach. And then everything she helped me negotiate. So I knew, okay, well this is what Elizabeth is making. They're offering me less than that. This is what Joy is making. And we kinda maybe on the same pot. So I knew what to ask for. And she said, don't go below it. And so I tell you the 7,500 relocation fee at the end, they ended up giving me $85,000. So I always tell people, I always tell people when you are negotiating, do not take the first amount that is offered. Even if it's a great amount.
Tracy Clayton: That's what Omarosa says.
Sherri Shepherd: I don't agree with Omarosa on 100% of the things but that thing. And that is true because even if it's a good amount, they got money. They may not have a lot, but you see, we’re not used to asking them. We're used to going, “Oh my gosh, I ain't never made this amount. I’m gon’ be happy.” No, they have the money. And I'm gonna tell you, Jenny McCarthy came in, making what it took me five or six years to make. And she could have got more. And I told Jenny, I said, because we've known each other for a couple of decades. I said girl. And they told Jenny don't tell anybody, don't say anything. And I said, Jenny, “Had you told me, you could have gotten more because you don't know. You was the only one that they had talked to.” There was nobody. We need to start this show in two weeks and they ain't talk to nobody. You're the only one that has been guest hosting. So you got leverage. So you actually could have made more if you had come to me. And she said, “I know, but they told me not to say anything. And I was scared. Cause it was like they threatened me.” So that's how Rosie helped me get the money that I deserved. And I will forever be thankful because I tell people all the time, I mean, you know, in deals that I do now, there are actresses who will come and go, “Hey sis, this is what I'm making.” And I said, well, this is what I'm making. So you know, if Sherri’s making this, then this is what I need to be asking for. That's the way we get our money up. It truly is. And that's how I found out. Never say yes to the first amount of money. Always say no. Always.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah. And that's also, what's going to make it harder for them to keep people over that.
Sherri Shepherd: Absolutely.
Josh Gwynn: For everyone that comes after you.
Sherri Shepherd: For everyone that comes after you,
Josh Gwynn: Speaking of the people that come after you, as someone who has sat at that table, what do you think the importance of daytime talk shows is in our culture right now? Especially given how divided our national discourses?
Sherri Shepherd: You know, I think it's so great because there's so many people who don't get their news except for talk shows. That's how they get it. And you know, you get to hear varied opinions. So it's not just this myopic view of one candidate. And I think it's really, really good for people. And I think sometimes you can change your mind or heart with your opinions. So I'm all for it. You know, sometimes you can look at the TV and go, I can't stand you. Ooo, you get on my nerves, but there's somebody for everybody at their table. So I think it's so important to our culture right now because a lot of people, they don't look at CNN, they don't read the paper. So something like the Real who is getting to the younger people, and they're talking to them about politics and about how it affects their lives. Somebody like Wendy Williams, she's talking to a segment of people. So it's so important. You can't take away talk shows. I think this is the reason why the View has lasted so long because Barbara Walters would always let us know. It is never the host that makes the View. Everybody's expendable. It's the show.
Josh Gwynn: What is the difference between working in a job where your job is to give your, take your opinion on something versus something like Mr. Iglesias, where you're in a role and you're someone else. Do you prefer one over the other?
Sherri Shepherd: No, I feel so blessed that I get to do everything that I get to be an actress. And then I get to do talk. And the View was very accommodating when I did precious Barbara, let me off to do precious. She wasn't happy when I did Dancing with the Stars. Not at all. Cause she, she and I had people fill in for me, Niecy Nash, a vendor called Brown. They would call me, they'd be like, Oh, that lady mean. What is Sherri for me?
Sherri Shepherd: She allowed me, I was able to do 30 rock while I was doing the View. So everybody was yes.
Josh Gwynn: Thank God.
Sherri: And I mean, so I was able to fly out. So, and I was scared when I came back to LA cause Niecy Nash said, “Sherri, but you need to be in LA. You gotta be in the center of where things are going on. So people will remember you.” And I came out here and I was so scared that I had been on the View for so long that people would have forgotten. I was an actress. And I'm telling you, I booked a series regular with John Lithgo. As soon as I got back, people did not forget. So I'm going to show right now with Kira Sedgwick, Kevin Bacon's wife on ABC doing that, doing Mr. Iglesias, and doing Dish Nation. So, if I could be having some sex, it would fill out my life. You can't have everything.
Tracy Clayton: Well, they say the Lord would give it to you when you're ready. Yeah.
Sherri Shepherd: And I obviously, he feels like you still got them hope, thoughts. You're not getting nothing.
Tracy Clayton: Ms. Sherri Shepherd, this of course has been a joy. And we're so grateful. And so thank you for what you do real quick tell folks where they can find you on the internet. So use social media-ing, are you sliding in DMS on Instagram?
Sherri Shepherd: If you a dude--cause I'm single--if you don't have a side tooth, please do not slide in my DMS. I don't want that air going through that hole please. My, my social media is @SherrieShepherd and, we got two funny mamas. Hopefully we'll be taking that on the road, our two funny mama's podcast. Mr. Iglesias is on Netflix streaming. Right now I have a show called Call Your Mother with Kira Sedgwick coming out on ABC and then a movie called best week ever. It’s my first musical,where I sing and dance. I sound like a Black Pat Benetar. I couldn't believe it.
Josh Gwynn: Hit me with your best shot!
Sherri Shepherd: Hit me with your best spot, take me away.
[50:35 END OF INTERVIEW]
Tracy Clayton: We have now come to that part of the party, where we try to make Tyra banks proud and learn something this, So did we learn something from this?
Josh Gwynn: I think we did.
Tracy Clayton: What did we learn?
Josh Gwynn: Well, we started with this question about what talk shows do and what daytime reflected about the culture that they were in. One thing that it brings up for me is that if talk shows are a reflection of the time that they're in, then they can also be a reflection of how we've evolved on certain topics. You were talking about a lot of the salacious topics from the nineties, and it gives me a little bit of comfort, albeit it not much...A little bit that if we were watching a daytime talk show today and they had a segment and the segment was this person's on because they're gay. Everyone would be like, what?
Tracy Clayton: Right!
Josh : I do think that now, if people were to have a talk show on daytime and somebody were to be brought out about infidelity, for example, what you said was a really big trope in the nineties, it would be more about advice or like some way to grow emotionally, as opposed to like, look at this. Isn't it crazy?
Tracy Clayton: Yeah. That's very, very true. I learned something too.
Josh Gwynn: What?
Tracy Clayton: So I learned that she can be a product of your time but still be responsible in the things that you do. And that's what I learned through talking about Oprah, right? Because, you know, she started off in the trenches with Donahue and Geraldo and all them. And she was the one who made an intentional choice to just be thoughtful and cognizant of what she was putting out into the world.
Josh Gwynn: It's not about where you start it's about the choices you make along the way. Are you going to react? Are you going to learn?
Tracy Clayton: Exactly.
Josh Gwynn: I mean, I think a lot about what the future of this medium is and like how trends are going to move. Right. I think what's interesting is that you're seeing a lot of like online versions of this medium pop-up Red Table Talk with the Smiths’s’s,
Tracy Clayton: And other entanglementses.
Josh Gwynn: You see Ziwe's show baited and they're having a lot more like emotionally intelligent conversations. I think the center of the actual programming, especially with Red Table Talk, it's like, I did this thing wrong and how do I fix it?
Tracy Clayton: Yeah. I think it's a reflection of the increased access that we have now to like the means of production with social media and not having to go through somebody else. I do wonder what's going to happen in this particular genre or industry with COVID right? Cause we've already seen a whole lot more podcasts popping up, but we also see a lot of people just like hanging out on IG Live.
Josh Gwynn: I think that because everyone can get up and make a podcas, because everyone can get online and start an IG channel you're seeing a democratization of content. I do think that overall, especially in these spaces that have been traditionally gatekeepers, like the network spaces, you're seeing people get tired of the petty.
Tracy Clayton: I think a lot of it is probably because the pettiest motherfucker in the world is president of this place where we live in right now. But, another thing that I've learned is that there will always be mess. There will always be pettiness. People still love Wendy Williams, I'm just saying. How long will they, I don't know.
Josh Gwynn: Maybe it's like the Pollyanna in me. Maybe it's like the optimist in me. Maybe that part of me has not quite died yet, which is shocking. But I really do think that people are getting tired of the petty and of feeling the caustic newness of our culture. And I think that one way that you can see that is how we talk to each other. And one of the ways that you can see how we talk to each other is on these talk show platforms.
[55:06 Outro Music Begins]
[Credits]
Tracy Clayton: Back Issue is as a production of Pineapple Street Studios.
Josh Gwynn: This show was as created and is hosted by Tracy Clayton.
Tracy Clayton: That's me and Josh Gwynn. That's not me. Our lead producers are Josh Gwynn and Emmanuel Hapsis.
Josh Gwynn: Our managing producer is John Asante.
Tracy Clayton: Our senior editor is Leila Day.
Josh Gwynn: Our associate producers are Alexis Moore and Xandra Ellen.
Tracy Clayton: Our intern is Briana Garrett. Special thanks to Gabrielle Young.
Josh Gwynn: Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky. Also, in this episode, we talked about the Legend Ball. If you want to know more about it, which you should, you should check out this amazing podcast called the Nod. It’s hosted by Brittany Luse and Eric Eddings, and they dedicated an entire episode of the Legends Ball, in which they refer to as the Avengers of the Aunties. Hooked? You should be.
Tracy Clayton: II want to watch that movie. The Avengers of the Aunties? Come through?
Josh Gwynn: All I see is boots and a bob.
Tracy Clayton: This show features music made by the one and only Donwill, you can follow him at DJ donwill on all the socials and you can follow me on at least two of the socials @brokeymcpoverty.
Josh Gwynn: You can follow me @regardingosh. Subscribe to this podcast, wherever free podcasts are sold. If you want, you can argue about it with a split screen.
Tracy Clayton: Wow. Someone is still quite messy.
Josh Gwynn: I'll work on it. See you next week.
Tracy Clayton: Bye.
Tracy Clayton: So I just want to get some snaps. If we can you know.
Josh Gwynn: Uh uh! What is the opposite of what is the opposite?
Tracy Clayton: I shouldn't.
Josh Gwynn: (laughs)
[57:07]