BACK ISSUE

Remember What Beef Is? (Feat. Jean Grae)

Day or Night, It's About To Be A What? Girl Fight!

This week, Josh and Tracy give you all things beefs, feuds, and squabbles. They explore one of the most formative feuds of their youth — Brandy vs. Monica — and get into where they were when one of the most shocking diss tracks of our time dropped (hint: it involves a pink diamond chicken wing chain). Then, rapper and talented multi-hyphenate Jean Grae joins to share why she thinks beefs are so essential to the world of hip hop.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION

[0:00]

[Music Begins]

Tracy Clayton: Josh, with the world being what it is, just everybody is so stressed out, and just angsty, and just cranky and ready to fight everybody--at least I am-- I think a good way to release some of this stress is with spoken word. What do you think?

Josh Gwynn: I usually don't think that spoken word is the solution to anything.

Tracy Clayton: Hater.

Josh Gwynn: But, if you teach me how to Doug you, if you teach me how to do this, I'm on board. Let's do it.

Tracy Clayton: Okay. I mean, I don't know that you can teach someone raw natural talent, but I mean, we'll see. We'll see.

Josh Gwynn: So sister Trace, what's on your heart? What do you need to express?

Tracy Clayton: Well, I think that there's a young brother who could help me express what I'm feeling inside. This is a poem that a young prophet named Kendrick Lamar wrote.

Josh Gwynn: Yes.

Tracy Clayton: It's called Control. You're welcome in advance.

[Music Begins]

Tracy Clayton: I'm usually homeboys with the same niggas I'm rhyming with, but this is hip hop, and them niggas should know what time it is. I got love for you all, but I'm trying to murder you, nigga, trying to make sure your core fans have never heard of you niggas. They don't want to hear not one more noun nor verb from you, niggas. What is competition? I am trying to raise the bar high.

Josh Gwynn: Ashe.

Tracy Clayton: Thank you. Thank you.

Josh Gwynn: Wait, I want to try, I want to try.

Tracy Clayton: Okay. Do it, do it, do it. What's on your spirit?

Josh Gwynn: Okay. This is by the Shakespeare of our time, really, Mariah Carey.

Tracy Clayton: Yes, indeed.

Josh Gwynn: It was sent to a certain, Slim Shady. I don't know if he's standing up, but he won't be after this piece.

Josh Gwynn: You're delusional. You're delusional. Boy, you're losing your mind. Why are you wasting your time? Got you all fired out with your Napoleon complex, seeing right through you like I was bathing in Windex.

Tracy Clayton: The illusion of the Windex just lifted my spirit, and just elevate me to where I need to be.

Josh Gwynn: It's an allegory.

Tracy Clayton: Amazing, amazing.

Josh Gwynn: You know what this makes me feel like we need to talk about today?

Tracy Clayton: What?

Josh Gwynn: Diss tracks, feuds, fighting...

Tracy Clayton: Squabbles.

Josh Gwynn: Sometimes you just need to get it out. You know?

Tracy Clayton: Yeah, and sometimes, mother fuckers be trying you, and you got to put them in their place.

Josh Gwynn: I am not the one.

Tracy Clayton: Uh-uh (negative) Not on this day. Ashe.

[Music Fades]

[Intro Music]

[CLIP]

Speaker 1: Beyonce, you look like Luther Vandross.

Speaker 2: Hoe, but make it fashion.

Speaker 3: You ain't heard that from me.

Speaker 4: Fierce, can't stop. You see, when you do clownery, the clown comes back to bit..

Speaker 5: (singing).

Speaker 6: It's Brittany, bitch.

Speaker 7: We were rooting for you, Tiffany. We were all rooting for you.

Speaker 8: (singing).

Speaker 9: Who said that?

Josh Gwynn: Welcome to Back Issue.

Tracy Clayton: A weekly podcast that revisits formative moments in pop culture that we still think about.

Josh Gwynn: This week, you wore a diamond chicken wing chain, are you dumb?

Tracy Clayton: Are you dumb? You had a leopard beehive on your head. Are you dumb?

Josh Gwynn: Are you dumb?

Tracy Clayton: Yes, you are dumb. And also, we're talking about feuds.

[Music Changes]

[CLIP]

Nicki Minaj: Back to this bitch that had a lot to say about me to other day in the press, Miley, what's good?

Ja Rule: He's a bad father. He looks like his breath stinks. We're sworn enemies, all right.

Mariah Carey : Billboard Hot 100 number one song, which you just performed, which is difficult to get. Not everybody has that.

Kenya Moore: It's okay, bye .

Porsha Stewart: Okay, bye, Ashy.

Kenya Moore: Have a nice day.

Cardi B: What was the reason? What was the reason? What was the reason?!

Tracy Clayton: Each week, we'll go back into the past and revisit unforgettable moments we all think we remember.

Josh Gwynn: And learn what they can teach us about where we are now.

Tracy Clayton: I'm Tracy Clayton.

Josh Gwynn: And I'm Josh Gwynn.

Tracy Clayton: And we're going to fight. Punch, punch, punch, punch.

Josh Gwynn: Is that how you fight?

Tracy Clayton: I guess so. I've never been in a fight.

Josh Gwynn: Oh no.

Tracy Clayton: It sounds like I'm in trouble though.

[Music Ends]

Tracy Clayton: Our time has seen some of history's most iconic feuds, Remy versus Nicki, as we referenced in the opening. JZ versus Nas, 50 Cent versus everybody pretty much.

Josh Gwynn: Did you see him come after Lil Nas X?

Tracy Clayton: He was like, "I woke up to grown men arguing about my Halloween costume." And I was like, “What a read,” just in that.

Josh Gwynn: Specific.

Josh Gwynn: But, before we get too deep into the beef--bars--I thought we should check in with rapper, producer, comedian and lyrical murderieur, which is French for murderer, the one and only Jean Grae, and ask her a question that many, many rappers have asked, including but not limited to my ex-husband, Mos Def.

Josh Gwynn: You know what.

Tracy Clayton: What is beef?

[CLIP]

Mos Def: Beef is not what Jay said to Nas. Beef is when the working folks can’t find jobs.

Josh Gwynn: Okay. So a beef, a feud, dictionary.com defines it as a bitter continuous hostility. It's when two parties are against each other, usually because of some sort of perceived or actual wrongdoing.

Tracy Clayton: Such as the Montagues and the Capulets.

[CLIP]

Speaker 10: Two households, both alike in dignity in fair Verona, where we lay our scene.

Josh Gwynn: Mariah and J.Lo.

[CLIP]

Speake 11: What do you think about people still referencing, "I don't know her," all these years later?

Mariah Carey: I still don't know her.

Tracy Clayton: Death Row versus Bad Boy.

[CLIP]

Puff Daddy: I would like to say that I am very proud of Dr. Dre, of death row, and Suge Knight for their accomplishments. And all this East and West that needs to stop.

Josh Gwynn: Kenya and Nene.

[CLIP]

Kenya Moore: Hi, Nene.

Nene Leakes: Hi, bitch.

Kenya Moore: You look fabulous.

Nene Leakes: You don't. Okay?

Tracy Clayton: Also, Drake and Pusha T.

Josh Gwynn: I'm now hiding my child from the world.

[CLIP]

Pusha T: You are hiding a child, let them boy come home, dead beat mother fucker playing border patrol.

Josh Gwynn: We have to talk about the ideal conditions for a feud to exist, I think.

Tracy Clayton: Like when the cold front comes and meets a warm front, and then you have the Arctic wind?

Josh Gwynn: Perfect storm.

Tracy Clayton: There you go. There you go. What are the conditions that we need?

Josh Gwynn: First, feuds usually occur between people who occupy the same sort of space. Otherwise, there's not really anything for them to feud over.

Tracy Clayton: So what happens if me, a podcaster, I see a construction worker. And I'm like, “You know what? I don't like this construction worker's bangs. That is not a bayang.”

Josh Gwynn: Not the bayang?

Tracy Clayton: The bayang is not bayang enough. Okay.

Tracy Clayton: If we go back and forth, is that a beef, even though we're not in similar spaces and have nothing to lose?

Josh Gwynn: I think it is a beef if you continue to go back and forth, but usually the biggest beefs occur when it's two people who occupy a similar space. And then second, there has to be some sort of element of strife or aspiration, which is to say that feuds usually are the vehicle for people to get on. A lot of times, what you'll see is someone going at the person who is ruling the space right now. And the way that they can make a name for themselves is by taking out the person at the top.

Tracy Clayton: Oh, it's like the mob. You know, you want to be the next godfather. You got to bump off whoever's on the top.

Josh Gwynn: Think 50 Cent and Ja Rule, this is a long time ago, but at that time, Murder Ink was it.

Tracy Clayton: Murder.

Josh Gwynn: And 50 Cent was coming on with his bulletproof vests and stuff.

Tracy Clayton: Remember those tank tops he used to sell?

Josh Gwynn: I loved them.

Tracy Clayton: Did you?

Josh Gwynn: I did.

Tracy Clayton: I'm glad they went away.

Josh Gwynn: But especially in hip hop, because hip hop is based on bravado, and you have to have this attitude of like, “I'm the best doing it, I'm the best to ever lived to do it.”

Tracy Clayton: Right. And within hip hop, that's expected, because one of the foundations of the entire genre, is bravado, it's battle rapping. You know? And I really don't think that anyone embodied this concept in its truest and purest form like Kendrick did in his verse on Control with Big Sean.

Josh Gwynn: Yo.

[CLIP]

Kendrick Lamar: I’m usually homeboys with the same niggas I’m rhymin’ with/but this is hip-hop, and them niggas should know what time it is/And that goes for Jermaine Cole, Big K.R.I.T., Wale, Pusha T, Meek Millz, A$AP Rocky, Drake, Big Sean, Jay Electron’, Tyler, Mac Miller/ I got love for you all but I’m tryna murder you niggas.

Tracy Clayton: Kendrick just stepped up. And he was like, I love y'all, but fuck y'all.

Josh Gwynn: Yeah.

Tracy Clayton: I'm trying to be the new supreme. That's what it is. Yes.

Josh Gwynn: The people that he named, it was kind of-

Tracy Clayton: Yes.

Josh Gwynn: The people that he named, it was kind of like a badge of honor, at least I'm in the conversation. And the people who got left out, everyone was like, wait, hold up.

Tracy Clayton: What about me? Lil Zane is somewhere like, yo man, why can't you can't come in after me? What's the problem?

Josh Gwynn: Oh my God. Lil Zane. Wow.

Tracy Clayton: It really was a compliment. Y'all are the ones who taught me. Y'all are why I'm so good. And I am why y'all got to get out of the way now.

Josh Gwynn: But it also cemented who Kendrick is because it's the fact that I am willing to go up against all of these legends and all of these people who people consider my contemporaries, but only the talented ones. Only the ones that I deem worthy of an opponent. But we can't have a discussion about feuds without talking about one of the most defining feuds of our generation.

Tracy Clayton: I bet I know which one it is.

Josh Gwynn: Which one?

Tracy Clayton: Brandy and Monica.

Josh Gwynn: The boy is mine, the boy is mine, the boy is mine, the boy is mine, the boy is mine.

[CLIP of “The Boy Is Mine” intro]

Tracy Clayton: Yes. This beef. Possibly the beef of all beefs. I'm going to say.

Josh Gwynn: It's up there. Definitely top five. Absolutely. Whether you were team Monica or team Brandy was a question that helped you understand who your friends were, helped you to understand who your enemies were.

Tracy Clayton: Yeah. It tells you a lot about somebody.

[Music Begins]

Josh Gwynn: The specific origins of this beef are largely unclear, but I want to take you back to the nineties.

Tracy Clayton: Yay. Picture it. Sicily. 1927.

Josh Gwynn: Picture it. R&B, the nineties. So the landscape, you have Brandy, you have Monica, you have Aaliyah. They were like the Holy R&B trinity. You had Aaliyah who was mysterious. Her hair was over her eyes.

Tracy Clayton: That swoop!

Josh Gwynn: She always had on sunglasses. Her dancing style was like, yeah, I learned this choreography yesterday, but don't I look cool doing it because I'm not even trying. You had Brandy. She was the one most likely to have had a cotillion. She gave you the perfect media trained answers. She was the one that your parents were probably like, look at that Brandy. Isn't she such a good example for kids?

Tracy Clayton: Why can't you be more like Brandy? Cause I can't sing, mama. Damn.

Josh Gwynn: Exactly. And then you had Monica who was like the girl next door. Her first album was Miss Thang, and it was because of her attitude. I mean, she was 12 when she recorded it. It's insane.

Tracy Clayton: It sounded like she was a full 26, 27. Her voice has always been just OD, in a good way.

Josh Gwynn: Yeah.

Tracy Clayton: And also, Monica was a little more edgy.

Josh Gwynn: Her material was a little bit more grown up. Brandy's, because her mom was her manager, you could tell that her team was very careful about what was age appropriate. On her first album, she had a song about how her brother was her best friend.

Tracy Clayton: It was such a cute song.

Josh Gwynn: It's a great song.

Tracy Clayton: I really like that album, it was good.

Josh Gwynn: But Brandy was in the studio and she had the song with Rodney Jerkins. Darkchild nine, nine. And they had worked on this song, which was kind of a play on the Michael Jackson song. The girl is mine.

Tracy Clayton: (sings) The doggone girl is mine. You're welcome.

Josh Gwynn: Thank you. But she had the song called The Boy Is Mine. And they were smart enough to think about the fact that everyone was always pitting Monica and Brandy against each other. So the content of the song played perfectly with the public perceptions narrative of how they related to each other.

Tracy Clayton: Because it's like, Okay the boy is mine and not yours because I'm the better person. I'm the better woman.

Josh Gwynn: Exactly.

[CLIP]

Brandy and Monica: You need to give it up. Had about enough. It’s not hard to see the boy is mine.

Josh Gwynn: In the June, 1998 edition of Billboard. Monica was quoted as saying, “From the time she was first released and I was first released, instantly people compared us. And I never understood it. They never did it with me and Aaliyah or Brandy and Aaliyah.” It was always Brandy and Monica. So they channeled that for a song. And it came to a head when Monica popped Brandy in the face, allegedly at the 1998 VMA rehearsals. Dallas Austin, who is a producer extraordinaire from the nineties, he worked on TLC, he worked with Brandy, he worked with all of your R&B faves. He tells the story of what happened behind the scenes that day.

[CLIP]

Dallas Austin: It was a heavyweight beef. They got in a fight.

Speaker 12: Heavyweight beef. Okay.

Dallas Austin: It worked out because the song was about being at war with each other. So nobody could really tell that she was punched before the performance.

Tracy Clayton: I never knew that.

Josh Gwynn: Didn't it confirm how you felt though. Everybody knew that there was this thing that existed in the air and you couldn't tell whether it was from the media or from them or where it was coming from. But you could just tell that there was something off.

Tracy Clayton: And it was so wild because there was nobody who didn't like Monica, right? She was friends with everybody. And I wonder if it's because people know that Monica, she's a great person, but she's also with the shits.

Josh Gwynn: Goonica!

Tracy Clayoton: She is from Atlanta to her marrow. So she'll get richer.

Josh Gwynn: Yes.

Tracy Clayton: I wouldn't buck up to Monica ever.

Josh Gwynn: It seemed to have fizzled at some point between the nineties and the early two thousands. But then it was reignited in 2016 when Monica went on Oprah's where are they now? And mentioned being mentored by Whitney Houston.

[CLIP]

Monica: From 18 years old until the day she left. She's really been my mentor in music, and in real life.

Josh Gwynn: Now you know Brandy is very territorial about the memory of the late, great Whitney Houston. So that didn't go well.

Tracy Clayton: You know how we always joke about Benita betrayal?

Josh Gwynn: Yeah.

Tracy Clayton: Whitney Houston was Brandy's Ms. Jenkins.

Josh Gwynn: Shut up.

Tracy Clayton: Don't nobody better say nothing bad about Whitney Houston's memory. That's when Brandy go off.

Josh Gwynn: Believe me, I am on that team too. Don't disrespect the legend, who is Whitney Houston.

Tracy Clayton: Absolutely.

Josh Gwynn: But ultimately the drama persisted throughout the years.

[Music Begins]

Tracy Clayton: Now we are in the leg of this beef, Verzuz has happened. And I'm still uncomfortable when I think about it, because I knew that it was supposed to be a kiss and make up situation.

Josh Gwynn: All of the drama that had been building over these years, their paths that had kept crossing. This was going to be the moment where they were going to squash it all.

Tracy Clayton: It was going to be, it was supposed to be, it was intended to be, but was it? I thought it was extremely awkward, but I mean, is this as close to a resolution are we going to get? Also, do we even want a resolution? You know what I'm saying?

Josh Gwynn: Right. It goes back to where the feud originated to begin with. The narrative that had been fed to you as a consumer of media was that these two girls did not get along. They were trying to vie for the same spot. And one of them had to go, which is problematic to begin with. But it becomes a self- fulfilling prophecy because the way that you see this versus, and this interaction with them today cannot not be informed by being told over and over and over again that these two people don't get along. So it's like, are we satisfied with this moment? I remember thinking that it was really awkward too.

Tracy Clayton: It was so uncomfortable.

Josh Gwynn: Theoretically, I think we all collectively feel that it’s probably better when people are happy and joyful. But for some reason, we as a culture are so obsessed with seeing people feuding, whether it’s in expected situations like in reality TV or rap, or otherwise.

Tracy Clayton: Yeah. I’m down in the trenches with everybody else. I’m not trying to be holier than thou. I love some drama.

Josh Gwynn: Same.

Tracy Clayton: So much that when I think about my enjoyment of it, I often find myself at a crossroads, and not only because I miss my uncle Charles, y’all.

Josh Gwynn: What a scary music video.

Tracy Clayton: Wasn’t it though?

[Music Ends]

Josh Gwynn: I mean, we all do.

Tracy Clayton: But that does make me wonder how much of this problem is caused or at least supported by us, the fans who buy into it. Right? Because how many years later, and we're over here just giggling and geeking over Brandy and Monica fighting, physically fighting.

Josh Gwynn: We're nine years old again.

Tracy Clayton: Exactly.

Josh Gwynn: Yeah. I think a big part of it is us, but I also think that it's not just us. It's also the way that the story of these two people have been told to us over and over again plays a really big part in the way that we perceive how things are happening.

Tracy Clayton: And the annoying thing is that no matter how much time we spend talking about this stuff, analyzing body language, whatever we need to do, we are never, ever, ever, ever going to know the truth.

Josh Gwynn: Ever.

Tracy Clayton: Nobody's ever going to know besides Brandy, Monica, and God. And the thing is, does that even matter that we'll never know. It's kind of been this way forever, right? The way that beef is used.

Tracy Clayton: It's kind of been this way forever, right? Like, the way that beef is used to promote goods, and artists, and their music.

Josh Gwynn: We know there's a part of our nature that loves a beef because it's a part of the way that people sell things.

Tracy Clayton: Yeah.

Josh Gwynn: It kind of captures our collective attention, and that attention can-- depending on the nature of the beef, depending on who's in charge and who we find responsible-- can translate into sales and streams.

Tracy Clayton: Absolutely. Not only does it make a shit ton of money for the white people who are at the top, just saying, it also has benefits for everybody else involved, because the more you beef with somebody, the more headlines you get. The more your profile is raised. The more that that happens, the more albums you sell, and then you've got ticket sales. Because we are supposed to support the artists that we like, and that's the way that we take sides in a beef by buying the artist's paraphernalia and music. And then these days, today, being crazy on Twitter sometimes. I don't know. Some people do.

Josh Gwynn: Yeah. Yeah. Your dollar is supposed to be your voice.

Tracy Clayton: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

[Music Begins]

Josh Gwynn: Alright. Since we're talking about iconic beefs, I have to ask, where were you when you heard Sheether? Remy Ma versus Nicki Minaj. Fight!

Tracy Clayton: Oh my gosh. I can't tell you where I was, but I can tell you how I felt.

Josh Gwynn: Tell me how you felt, girl.

Tracy Clayton: I felt like she was coming at me, and I needed to go find her and apologize.

Josh Gwynn: What'd I do?

Tracy Clayton: Like, listen. Exactly! I've never in my life had a pink, gold chicken wing chain.

Josh Gwynn: Are you dumb?

Tracy Clayton: Why are you coming at me like this? I might be. I don't know. But it wasn't even me. She's just ... My god. My god.

Josh Gwynn: No holds barred. Held nothing back.

Tracy Clayton: None. Do you remember where you were when you heard it?

Josh Gwynn: I do, because I remember I was working a job that was not my favorite.

Tracy Clayton: Bet you won't call them and write a rap song about them. First off, fuck your job.

Josh Gwynn: I remember being in this room and I used to play a DJ. I used to play music, and I remember looking at Twitter and being like, "Wait, what's going on?" And so I played it, and that first of the beat, everybody turned their head and was like, "What is going on? What is happening?" Because it just sounds confrontational. It sounds like I'm gonna beat a bitch's ass.

Tracy Clayton: My favorite thing is when people put that beat underneath Obama videos when he's just going off on somebody, or Elizabeth Warren.

Josh Gwynn: I love that!

[CLIP]

Elizabeth Warren: Talk about who we’re running against, a billionaire who calls women fat broads and horse-faced lesbians. And no, I'm not talking about Donald Trump. I'm talking about Mayor Bloomberg.

Tracy Clayton: It's so perfect. It's just menacing like, "Ooh, somebody's about to get-”

Josh Gwynn: Their ass beat. Yeah.

Tracy Clayton: And the thing that I like about this particular beef is because you got the messiness, you got the drama, you got hitting below the belt, whatever. But you also get to see what a fucking beast Remy Ma is. This is what she does. And there's not a lot of opportunities, I don't think, where we just sit in are just in awe of a woman's lyrical ability in this particular genre. I was just like, "Man, Remy is just dope." Then I was like, "Man, this is uncomfortable and kind of body shaming." But also, it was just a really confusing time for my feelings.

Josh Gwynn: There's a lot of layers. It's rap. It's a competitive sport.

Tracy Clayton: This is what happens.

Josh Gwynn: But also, there's the idea of there's only been one woman in the space for so long and there should be multiple people. We should have access to a bunch of people. It shouldn't even be a situation where we're calling people like female MCs. They should just be MCs, and they should be able to come at each other the same way that dudes come at each other. It's not the ... unless you're Ja Rule, the ending of your career.

[Music Begins]

Tracy Clayton: Ooh. See, I just heard that Sheether beat in my head when you said that. Fuck Ja Rule.

Josh Gwynn: (laughter) Come with your Fyre Fest.

Tracy Clayton: You rented out an island and didn't have no food for the people. Are you dumb?

[Music Ends]

Josh Gwynn: (laughter) How dreadful! A fashion show with no fashion.

[Music Begins]

Tracy Clayton: Another thing that makes me so mad about this is the respectability that is instantly attached. Whenever we come close to musical warfare between women, especially black women. Because it's hard enough out here. We as black women need to hold each other up and work together instead of tear each other down, which ... listen. I know that there are lots of racial issues in the world right now, and I understand that a lot of them are focused at black women. I get it. But also, we're fucking human. We get mad. We can have fights. Also, why can't we follow the same fucking rules of hip hop and battle rapping that everybody else did? Nobody came at Jay-Z and was like, "Well, since black on black crime is just so bad," you should really not. It's just like, "Oh, Jay-Z holding the crown. Whatever, whatever. The throne." It just makes me so mad.

Josh Gwynn: Exactly. It's like on one hand, we don't give women and queer people the ability to sit in the full expression of themselves.

Tracy Clayton: That was beautiful.

Josh Gwynn: It's the same sort of conversation that people are having about WAP. Whenever somebody comes out with something that's sexually explicit, I would run out of fingers and toes if I needed to name every super sexually explicit rap.

Tracy Clayton: “Slob on my knob like corn on the cob.”

Josh Gwynn: Just put it in your mouth. For people in this particular space, there was this big pressure for it to be, "Oh, rise above it. What about conscious rap? What about bringing up our people?" It's like, "But can I be a person?"

Tracy Clayton: Right. It's like that gif of Nicki.

Josh Gwynn: Oh, the MTV documentary?

Tracy Clayton: I'm a human-

[CLIP]

Nicki Minaj: Being.

Tracy Clayton: And you know what? I do think this is an extension of the way that black women in particular are kept from their anger. Because what's more threatening than an angry black woman? To the extent that it's become a trope that we're supposed to avoid. Of course, men don't want to hear women out-rapping them first and foremost, and they don't want to hear them talk about how powerful they are because of their vaginas and shit like that. They also don't want to see a black woman who can fiercely defend herself without chastising her for that, because she might be coming for your ass one day.

Josh Gwynn: Exactly.

Tracy Clayton: I think it’s such a good example of what happens when you can see pictures of other things that you can be. Now we have a Megan Thee Stallion. Now we have a Saweetie.

Josh Gwynn: Saweetie. Even though she eats her ramen absolutely wrong. Sorry.

Tracy Clayton: You know what? I will not eat it but I would like to defend people around the world with unconventional eating preferences.

Josh Gwynn: You can’t be what you can’t eat.

Tracy Clayton: Ashe. Somebody that has some very strong feelings about this is the one and only Jean Grae, which is why I was like, “we should talk to Jean Grae.” That’s why I have the best ideas ever. So after the break, we’ll dive deeper into the “beefther” with rapper, producer, comedian, actress, and most importantly lyrical murderieur Jean Grae. Stay tuned.

[Music Begins]

Josh Gwynn: We sat that down to talk with lyrical genius, murderer of MCs Jean Grae. We talked about beef, we talked about competition, battle rap, and we talked about what it means to have an avenue to put all your aggression and anger, which feels relevant.

Tracy Clayton: Because we angry!

[Musc Fades]

[26:40 Jean Grae Interview Begins]

Tracy Clayton: Let's start at the very beginning, shall we? Little baby Jean finds and falls in love with hip hop.

Jean Grae: I don't know if that happened.

Tracy Clayton: Oh, do you have beef with hip hop?

Jean Grae: I think probably more so than any other music I'm into. One, because hip hop doesn't allow itself normal things like for people to get older..sexism clearly. The idea that female hip hop is some sort of genre of music is insane. But other than that, I fell in love with it because I'm an extremely competitive person. I'm very clumsy. I'm not good at sports. I always wanted to be good at sports. But I can play fucking brain games, and I'm really good with words. And I don't like to win. I like to burn everything to the fucking ground.

[Music Ends]

Tracy Clayton: I feel so seen. Every day, like, "Trace, it's not a competition." But I'm just like, "It's just because you're not trying hard enough."

Jean Grae: But it is. It's always a competition.That's nice. You don't have to be in the competition for me to deem it a competition. And even when it wasn't a competition amongst me and anyone else, it was me challenging myself. What new flow can I use? What new words can I use? Can I make myself laugh? Can I be like, "Oh shit, that was a quadruple entendre." And you're welcome. The frustrating part of all of that became me falling very much out of love with it as much as I loved it, because I was like, "Oh, you guys don't hear me doing any of these things because I'm just a woman."

Tracy Clayton: When you first came out and hit the scene, how were you finding that people responded to you?

Jean Grae: There were very small amounts of instances where there was another woman present. So you're like, "Oh look, and that's the girl." I'm like, "No, no, no. I'm the murderer. You've got this fucked up." And so it was very interesting to get requests for someone who would be like, "I need a woman on this song or a female voice." I'm like, "Then you should just go get a random woman because it's not going to go the way you think it's going to go."

Josh Gwynn: Do you think that the ability to call someone out helps that or hurts that push for diversity?

Jean Grae: I think it's fair. It's always fair that everyone be on the same playing field. And if you happen to be that person that's just crazy aggressive and braggadocio and trying to pick fights everywhere, then that's great. Just anytime anyone's not allowed to be fully them, it's a problem for me. And it should be a problem for everyone because then we don't get to understand the full potential of some little girl who's like, "People are calling me intimidating or aggressive or emasculating. And all I'm trying to do is be bold." So that's part of diversity too, allowing us to be fucking individuals and have nuances and subtleties. And we just have not gotten there yet.

Josh Gwynn: When you were coming up, were there any beefs that were formative to you where you're like, "Yo, I remember exactly where I was when this first came out?”

Jean Grae: Yes. So the first one was Jesus. And I thought people really came... No.

Tracy Clayton: I was like, "What, is that?" Is there an MC named Jesus?

Josh Gwynn: The old testament.

Jean Grae: Where is she going with this? Oh my gosh. It was a crazy beef, y'all. I think the one that I really, really remember, Canibus came after LL. Where you're like, "I don't think he was talking about you." Okay. I was like, "Oh shit. You just came in and destroyed him.

[CLIP of Canibus freestyle]

Jean Grae: But also, I feel like maybe he was not talking about you." As a kid from '70s and '80s hip hop, I was in LL's corner, but I loved the energy and ferocity of this motherfucker coming out of nowhere and be like, "I'll punch everybody in the face." And I was like, "Yes, yes."

Tracy Clayton: So you were basically made for battle rapping.

Jean Grae: Sadly.

Josh Gwynn: So what flashes in your mind when you're like, "Okay, it's go time." You're like, "How do I cut to the white meat?"

Jean Grae: I have the thing in Kill Bill where just everything goes red, and the sound happens. And people are like, "Where is that coming from?"

[Music Begins, Fades]

Jean Grae: I have no scruples. I have no like, "Oh, you don't talk about anyone's kid." Fuck your kids.

Tracy Clayton: Oh shit.

Jean Grae: I don't have any... There's no rules. And I think those are always the most dangerous people.

Tracy Clayton: It's just such a difficult craft. Not only do you have to think of words that sound good together on the spot, you got to crush your opponent. And I'm just like, "I'm mean, and I got an attitude, but the other part I don't really have." I'm just like, "Oh, I'm going to email you my thoughts later."

Jean Grae: But see, that would be fucking funny. I would die laughing if there was a battle rapper who just showed up, who was like, "Hold on, I need time to process some things. Let me write down the list of all the things that you said, and I'm going to rattle them off to you. Is this correct? I'm busy processing information and I'm definitely going to have something to say about you and your mom because it sounds like you have a lot of issues in your childhood, and I can't pinpoint them right now." Don't look at everybody else and be like, "Those are what the rules are." Because that's when you love someone new who comes out and you're like, "Oh shit, I didn't even know we could do that."

Tracy Clayton: All this reminds me of just adding to the humanity of people who are already unseen. This is what pissed me off the most about Remy versus Nicki. I knew that after Remy came out and just slaughtered Nicki's entire family and bloodline, I knew that the moment would come when somebody was going to come out and say, "As women, you know this wasn't right. We need to uplift each other. Everything is so hard." And I'm just like, "Fuck that. We get mad too."

Jean Grae: Also, it's rap. That's the nature of it.

Josh Gwynn: Speaking of Nicki and Remy, do you remember the show Celebrity Death Match?

Jean Grae: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Josh Gwynn: Okay. So we're going to do a Celebrity Death Match right now. If you could put together your dream beef, who would it be?

Jean Grae: It's not going to be rap. This is so stupid. There's a wrestling game, the WWE Games. And in them, they have character creations where you can make people and then you can create their entire entrance. You get to pick the music and you can choose from everyone in wrestling's moves, and you can mix them up and you can do your own pyro and you could do your own lights. And you can make your own outfit. My husband and I spend a lot of time making entrance death matches. And we never actually get to the fight. This is just about the beginning of the fucking show..

Josh Gwynn: I love this.

Tracy Clayton: You came up in what you call the golden era of the underground hip hop scene. And a little birdie told me that you found your way there through spoken word.

Jean Grae: I did it out of mocking.

Tracy Clayton: Damn, damn. I love this. Please continue.

Jean Grae: There's two things I'm not a fan of. One is musicals, except for Annie and Oliver. I'll fuck you up. And the Wiz, and the Wiz, and the Wiz, and Slam Poetry. I cannot, I cannot, I cannot.

Josh Gwynn: What do you mean?

Tracy Clayton: Do you have any advice for somebody who might be listening and they're like, "Damn, that's me, but I don't know how to get there"?

Jean Grae: The analogy that I would always use is don't walk by the club and be like, "Oh, I need to get in," and the club's like, "Oh, you can't come in." You don't have to try to get into that club. Who cares? Build your club and take all their money and all their business. If that's who you are. You can build something completely else. There's a lot of people that I look up to and that are icons and that have inspired me, but there was no one blueprint for doing what I wanted to do or what I want to do in the future. I'm the blueprint.

Jean Grae: But see, that would be fucking funny. I would die laughing if there was a battle rapper who just showed up, who was like, "Hold on, I need time to process some things. Let me write down the list of all the things that you said, and I'm going to rattle them off to you. Is this correct? I'm busy processing information and I'm definitely going to have something to say about you and your mom because it sounds like you have a lot of issues in your childhood, and I can't pinpoint them right now." I would be fine with someone who wasn't necessarily making shit rhyme.

Jean Grae: I think that's it too. Don't look at everybody else and be like, "Those are what the rules are." Because that's when you love someone new who comes out and you're like, "Oh shit, I didn't even know we could do that." Everything has to be a new thing before it becomes a style. And that's my other suggestion is look for the voids. What are the things that don't exist? And like, "Oh man. Yeah, this was okay, but I wish there was..." Well then fucking you do it. Do it, be it. The fuck you waiting for?

Tracy Clayton: Another thing that all this reminds me of just adding to the humanity of people who are already unseen. This is what pissed me off the most about Remy versus Nicki. I knew that after Remy came out and just slaughtered Nicki's entire family and bloodline, I knew that the moment would come when somebody was going to come out and say, "As women, you know this wasn't right. We need to uplift each other. Everything is so hard." And I'm just like, "Fuck that. We get mad too."

Jean Grae: Also, it's rap. That's the nature of it.

Josh Gwynn: Speaking of Nicki and Remy, do you remember the show Celebrity Death Match?

Jean Grae: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Josh Gwynn: Okay. So we're going to do a Celebrity Death Match right now. If you could put together your dream beef, who would it be?

Josh Gwynn: I love this.

Jean Grae: We did a Prince versus Michael. And all the entrances are two minutes long. And most of Prince's shit is just crawling on the ground for an extended period of time in assless chaps, because it's wrestling. So those things are available.

Josh Gwynn: Are allowed. Yes!

Jean Grae: We have Aretha Franklin versus Dionne Warwick because-

Tracy Clayton: Okay, all right, okay. I'm in on so-

Josh Gwynn: You're speaking my language.

Tracy Clayton: Yes, you absolutely are.

Jean Grae: Because it's wrestling and we're like, "Oh, there's got to be someone doing a move where they take their coat off and they just let it fall to the floor." We got to make Aretha Franklin. And I'm like, "If only we could get someone coming out with a bag, that would be so good."

Josh Gwynn: She just drops her purse.

Tracy Clayton: Can you do entrances for tag teams, more than one person?

Jean Grae: I don't think so. If I wanted to do a tag team, what I would do is I would do a Sisqo one, but I would make K-Ci and JoJo. And then I would make K-Ci walk over JoJo.

Josh Gwynn: This is the best version of the Sims ever.

Jean Grae: I'm 225% not sorry.

Josh Gwynn: That's so funny.

Tracy Clayton: Do R&B beefs exist in the real world, R&beefs?

Josh Gwynn: Come on R&beef.

Jean Grae: Yes.

Tracy Clayton: Do they?

Jean Grae: Yes.

Josh Gwynn: Produced by Mona Scott-Young.

Jean Grae: You just made everyone... That was such an immediate...

Josh Gwynn: R&beef just sounds like a reality show I would've watched a long time ago.

Tracy Clayton: Is that what Verzuz is?

Jean Grae: That's like the intervention.

Josh Gwynn: It kind of is, right?

Jean Grae: And everybody's like, "I'm sorry about that. I'm sorry about that too. We're old now." I'd be like, "You know what? Before either of us die for any reason in the world, I got to say I liked your stuff. You're real good at it."

Josh Gwynn: If you could make a diss track about any animal or inanimate object, what do you hate?

Jean Grae: I like the way you think.

Josh Gwynn: Mine would be about people who stop walking in doorways or at the end of escalators.

Jean Grae: I have a song about that. I have a series of albums called “That's Not How You Do That.” They're instructional albums. One of the songs is called Escalators. And it's about when you're coming on the escalator and someone gets off the fucking escalator and just fucking stands there.

Josh Gwynn: This is a portal, sir.

Jean Grae: You are also a part of society.

[CLIP of “Escalators” by Jean Grae]

Josh Gwynn: I feel so seen.

Jean Grae: So I've made it for you.

Tracy Clayton: Not that anyone asked, I want to write a diss track to whales. They're too big.

Jean Grae: Why whales?

Tracy Clayton: Because they're too big, for one. Just huge as shit. They have convinced the world that, "Yes, I'm 73,000 tons, but you don't have to worry about me." Worry about them fucking whales, y'all. It's not okay. I think that my diss track should be about the entire ocean. I just think the whole thing is too much.

Jean Grae: It is too much. It's space and we're treating it like it's not space, just reverse.

Tracy Clayton: It's space, but it's wet. Only difference.

Josh Gwynn: But on the flip side of beefs, you said that you lived in the rap version of The Real World, where there was 10 people, a studio, people stopped being friendly, I guess, and started getting real. It sounds so harmonious. Based on that experience, do you see a world in which hip hop evolves beyond the beef?

Tracy Clayton: And is that what we want?

Josh Gwynn: And is that good?

Jean Grae: I was just going to say that would be a little saddening for me. If it's wrestling, there should be some wrestling in the wrestling. There's an entire culture in rap that's just battle rap, that it's not people that you're just familiar with who make one diss song. That is a whole other skill. So it would be terrible for that craft to go away. I love writing. I love challenging myself to write as fast as I fucking can. My favorite thing doing rap was challenging myself that if I'm not doing any song in one take, then fuck it, I'm not doing it. And I never wrote anything ahead of time. I wrote everything in the studio right before we did the song. I don't have any extra raps laying around ever.

Josh Gwynn: Wow.

Tracy Clayton: Jay Z whomst? I don't know him.

Jean Grae: But you see, these are all the kinds of things exactly what I'm talking about when we're talking about women in hip hop. These are the conversations you never get to have. Nobody's asking about your writing process or what you enjoy about battle rap. I think it would be a shame if a whole culture sort of disappeared. But I think the understanding of the culture needs to be more widespread.

[39:22 Interview with Jean Grae Ends]

[CLIP of Tyra Banks “Learn Something From This”]

Josh Gwynn: Okay, Trace.

Tracy Clayton: Yeah.

Josh Gwynn: You know what time it is?

Tracy Clayton: Uh, 17-38? Am I right?

Josh Gwynn: No

Tracy Clayton: Aw, what time is it?

Josh Gwynn: It’s time where we take a page out of Tyra Banks’ book to see did we…

[CLIP]

Tyra Banks: Learn something from this!

Tracy Clayton: We absolutely did learn from things from this.

Josh Gwynn: What you learned, Trace?

Tracy Clayton: I learned that it is okay to enjoy a good slice of drama. It’s okay to love some gossip. It’s okay to be in the group chat, talking about some, “ooh, did you see, this, that or the third,” as long as we are responsible and informed about what it is that we’re taking in and why. Does that make sense?

Josh Gwynn: Yeah, but I want you to say more.

Tracy Clayton: Okay, for example. You know I love the real housewives of almost anywhere. There are some factions where I just can’t relate to rich white folks.

Josh Gwynn: But Atlanta?

Tracy Clayton: Yeah, we got at least one thing in common. And I think I like that right now because it’s so stupid.

Josh Gwynn: Right, The stakes are low.

Tracy Clayton: They’re so low. The bar is in hell, and so are we right now. For me, it’s productive because the primitive part of my brain that’s always in survival mode, it needs to have something to chew on that’s not political beef, because that could kill me and everybody that I love. I’m going to go for these women in ball gowns who go to wineries to have discussions that they know are going to make them fight.

Josh Gwynn: Right, let’s go to the studio and drop some beefs. But it’s a really nice way to let your mind go, “look, the conflict is over there. It’s not in here. And I think that after talking to Jean Grae, what’s even more clear to me is that it’s really important that we have certain avenues that give us access to our anger, our competitiveness, our ability to murder bitches. All of those are natural and healthy things to have access.

Tracy Clayton: Exactly. It’s therapeutic!

Josh Gwynn: It’s therapeutic! It’s cathartic. You need that forum to release what’s built up and if it can happen in a productive, move us forward kind of way, even better! Do you remember what happened with Noname and J. Cole?

Tracy Clayton: Okay, only vaguely, honestly.

Josh Gwynn: So you had J. Cole who came out with Snow on tha Bluff, right?

Tracy Clayton: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Josh Gwynn: Where he was coming at some mystery artist, and we all knew who he was talking about.

[CLIP]

J. Cole: (singing).

Josh Gwynn: And then you had Noname come out with the song, Song 33, in which she read him down in a minute and 30 seconds. It's a very short song, she's very succinct. And that's what happens when you read books.

Tracy Clayton: Hello.

Josh Gwynn: And she was like, "Why am I on your tongue right now at this moment?"

Tracy Clayton: It ain't nothing else going on in the world right now you could focus on?

[CLIP]

Noname: (singing).

Josh Gwynn: I think that that is a perfect example of a beef that exists, or it can happen now, but there's more layers to it. It's not just like, "Bitch, your face looks funny."

Tracy Clayton: Right.

Josh Gwynn: First of all, they're fighting about misogynoir and who's responsible for it. And she's telling him about himself for being problematic, but also there's a layer about what we should be focused on, culturally. It feels a little bit more thoughtful. It feels more about what's happening inside your head. It's more productive.

Tracy Clayton: We needed to hear exactly what Noname said because there is so much misogynoir.

Josh Gwynn: Yeah.

Tracy Clayton: And somebody needs to speak out on it, which is what she did. You know? And I think that that's more allowable because of the context and because of the power structure and dynamic and difference between men and women.

Josh Gwynn: I agree.

Tracy Clayton: So I really resent everything. I just resent [crosstalk 00:30:04].

Josh Gwynn: Where's the list, girl?

Tracy Clayton: You know?

Josh Gwynn: Yeah. But people will look at the way in which you punch somebody. Are you punching up? Are you punching down? Is it funny or is it mean spirited? And I think that that is something that's shifted in our culture. People are paying more attention to the way in which you're tearing somebody down as opposed to just delighting in it regardless.

Tracy Clayton: Yeah. It's like, as our society advances, like when we talk about stuff not aging well. You know?

Josh Gwynn: Right.

Tracy Clayton: Those are jabs and areas that don't age well, like slut-shaming and body-shaming and things of the sort.

Josh Gwynn: Right.

Tracy Clayton: But I feel like it's always going to be some shit that you can poke fun at. It has to be.

Josh Gwynn: Has to be.

Tracy Clayton: Right?

Josh Gwynn: Has to be. And it applies outside the rap cypher as well. We should have access to these emotions especially in situations in which we are trying to correct something that we know is wrong. That is when people try to strip you of your anger. They try to strip you of the deep voice.

Tracy Clayton: They try to deweaponize you.

Josh Gwynn: That is part of reason you see this flooding on your timeline of people getting Karens together. I think there’s this feeling of righting wrongs...justice and consequences. I think fair game.

Tracy Clayton: Go talk about that girl’s weave, if it makes sense.

Josh Gwynn: And if it’s lopsided.

Tracy Clayton: And if it sits a little too high on the head.

Josh Gwynn: And speaking of feuds just being fun sometimes, we can’t do a feud episode without talking about the queen Patti LaHelle.

Tracy Clayton: I remember the absolute phenomenon, it's all that the timeline was [crosstalk 00:04:26].

Josh Gwynn: Shout out to Patti LaHelle, for real.

Tracy Clayton: Shout out to Patti LaHelle.

Josh Gwynn: Got 2B Real is a YouTube series in which this creative name, Patti LaHelle, used archival footage, but they lip sync on top of it with really amazing vocal impressions of the great divas. So we're talking Patti LaBelle, Chaka Khan, Dionne Warwick, Aretha Franklin.

Tracy Clayton: Mariah.

Josh Gwynn: Mariah, Whitney, Beyonce, all of them. And she puts them in these situations where they have to interact with each other and they just read each other down and you just get all of the shade.

Tracy Clayton: It's so good.

[CLIP]

Speaker 13 : Aretha, just because I have on a watch, don't assume I have time for your bullshit.

Aretha: Bitch ass, you know we got beef, so let's eat.

Speaker 13: The only beef between us is the burger in your mouth.

Josh Gwynn: One of the things that that leaves me with is feuds can be fun, but they can also hold us back. And so what we have to do is just be conscious of the way in which we engage with these feuds.

Tracy Clayton: Yeah.

Josh Gwynn: Power by itself is just power. It depends on how you use it.

Tracy Clayton: You have been just been dropping jewels this whole time. When is the book coming out?

Josh Gwynn: Shut up. Shut up.

[Outro Music Begins]

Tracy Clayton: Back Issue is a production of Pineapple Streets Studios.

Josh Gwynn: This show was created and is hosted by Tracy Clayton.

Tracy Clayton: Hey, that's me. And also, Josh Gwynn. Our Lead Producers are Josh Gwynn and Emmanuel Hapsis.

Josh Gwynn: Our Managing Producer is John Asante.

Tracy Clayton: Our Senior Editor is Leila Day.

Josh Gwynn: Our Associate Producers are Alexis Moore and Xandra Ellin.

Tracy Clayton: Our intern is Briana Garrett. Special thanks to Gabrielle Young.

Josh Gwynn: Our Executive Producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky.

Tracy Clayton: This show features music by Donwill. You can follow him on all the socials @djdonwill and you can follow me on the socials at brokeymcpoverty.

Josh Gwynn: And you can follow me @regardingjosh. Subscribe to this podcast wherever free podcasts are sold. Tell a friend, whoever you're beefing with, let them know, just slip it underneath the wall that was between Brandy and Monica. Be like, "Hey, go listen to Back Issue and give it a five star review." Because it really does help.

Tracy Clayton: Yes. Do that.

Josh Gwynn: I'll see you next week.

Tracy Clayton: Bye.

[Music Ends]

Tracy Clayton: So, Joshua, I wasn't calling you a hoe, it's Spanish for Josh.

Josh Gwynn: There's some hoes in the house.

Tracy Clayton: Hey, hey, hey.

ENDS [00:46:55]