BACK ISSUE
Remember Backing That Azz Up? (Feat. Dr. Joy Harden Bradford and Mariah Moore)
Without A Doubt, I Miss The Cookout
This week, take a break from your solitary quarantine as Josh and Tracy take you waaay back to some of the baddest, Blackest functions of all time, like ATL's Freaknik and the Kentucky Derby. Then, travel back in time with Josh and organizer Mariah Moore (of The Transgender Law Center, House of Tulip) to the celebration of life and death that was Aretha Franklin's second line in New Orleans. And because we all could use some therapy, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford of 'Therapy For Black Girls' drops in to offer some (non-medical!) guidance on how to get through this time of separation.
Episode Transcription
Stacy Payton: Live from Pineapple Public Radio this is Stacy Payton.
John Flynn: And I'm John Flynn.
Stacy Payton: John, this is a year where we've had to avoid being close to each other for nearly 10 months, but let's rewind, how have people been coping during this difficult time?
John Flynn: Stacy, this question has been on my mind as well and today we're going to look where we look whenever we need to figure out what to do, whenever we need to clean up a mess.
Stacy Payton: Where's that, John?
John Flynn: The Black community, Stacy. In this PPR special report we're going to look back at some of the most important celebrations in Black America.
Stacy Payton: We know what these gatherings are, from Freaknik, to The Kentucky Derby, to the Second Lines, but what is it really like to experience these celebrations? We'll bring you more after the break, this is PPR.
[Music Changes]
[Intro Begins]
Speaker 1: Beyonce, you look like Luther Vandross.
Speaker 2: Oh, but make it fashionable.
Speaker 3: But you ain't heard that from me.
Speaker 4: Fierce, can't stop.
Speaker 5: Call him.
Speaker 6: You see when you do clownery the clown comes back to bite.
Speaker 7: I think mostly 'cause of y'all.
Speaker 8: It's Britney bitch.
Speaker 9: Y'all are not gonna get enough sleep 'cause of me.
Speaker 10: We were rooting for you Tiffany.
Speaker 11: Who said that?
Josh Gwynn: Welcome to Back Issue.
Tracy Clayton: A weekly podcast that revisits formative moments in pop culture that we still think about.
Josh Gwynn: Tracy, remember when we were able to be together in person?
Tracy Clayton: I know, this sounds like another one of your fever dreams.
Josh Gwynn: I promise it was true.
Tracy Clayton: I do, I do remember when we used to go outside and go to parties and stuff.
Josh Gwynn: That's what we're going to talk about on this episode.
Tracy Clayton: The party.
Josh Gwynn: The party.
[CLIP]
Speaker 12: Welcome to Atlanta Hot 97.5, the station where Hip-Hop lives, it's Freaknik.
Speaker 13: I’m actually from Kentucky, so we were raised the bigger the hat, it brought more luck.
14: And is there anything that’s off limits when it comes to the Kentucky derby?
Speaker 13: Not really, cause it depends. I’ve seen from formal wear, to cocktail attire, to summer dresses, so it kind of depends on where you’re going.
Speaker 15: It was a spirit movement. It was a movement in our life and our time, not just civil rights time, that’s all we had. It was that spirit movement and that what I still go off today, because when a man blows his instruments, it’s coming from the inside.
Tracy Clayton: Each week we'll go back into the past to revisit unforgettable moments we all think we remember.
Josh Gwynn: And learn what they can teach us about where we are now.
Tracy Clayton: I don't know what day it is, but I'm pretty sure I'm Tracy Clayton.
Josh Gwynn: And I don't know where I am, but I'm pretty sure I'm Josh Gwynn.
[Music Ends]
Josh Gwynn: Tracy.
Tracy Clayton: Josh.
Josh Gwynn: I'm tired. I don't think I've ever meant that word more than I mean it right now.
Tracy Clayton: Are you like negro spiritual tired?
Josh Gwynn: Options are few.
Tracy Clayton: I mean, I’m inclined to say that maybe you can rest now that we’re almost at the end of our first season. But I got a feeling it’s not going to happen.
Josh Gwynn: You know me so well.
Tracy Clayton: But fair point. We do have one more episode to go after this one.
Josh Gwynn: One more.
Tracy Clayton: But, I got a question.
Josh Gwynn: What’s up?
Tracy Clayton: What in particular are you tired of?
Josh Gwynn: Everything (laughs).
Tracy Clayton: Same. Okay, all right, me too. Glad we’re on the same page.
Josh Gwynn: Okay, but what I think I'm most tired of is all of these facsimile versions of us getting together. I think I've reached my limit, I think I've reached my limit on Zoom, I think I've reached my limit on Clubhouse, I think I've reached my limit on Twitter. it's not the same. I miss being with people, I miss dancing, I miss laughing, I miss touch. .
Tracy Clayon: Do you know what's very confusing to me?
Josh Gwynn: What?
Tracy Clayton: So do I wasn't expecting it, I'm not that type of person, but I mean I do miss people and like looking at 'em and being able to cuss them out in person, it hit different.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Tracy Clayton: So you can see my angry face and know that I mean it.
Josh Gwynn: In person.
Tracy Clayton: Right.
Josh Gwynn: No emoji.
[Music Begins]
Tracy Clayton: You know what though? I feel like a thing that could help us through this moment is to have not a funeral per se ...
Josh Gwynn: Come on funeral.
Tracy Clayton: But a celebration of life.
Josh Gwynn: Okay.
Tracy Clayton: For all of the times that we miss, everybody's grieving right now and a ceremony might help us through that grief.
Josh Gwynn: Okay, I'm on board, celebration of life, the trumpet sounded, I'm there but later in this episode I think we should talk to Dr. Joy Harden Bradford of Therapy For Black Girls and just check in.
Tracy Clayton: Anytime we can talk to a therapist about anything I think that we should just go with that feeling.
Josh Gwynn: You know, 'cause I'm like, "Am I okay right now? I'm not sure."
Tracy Clayton: And you're not, none of us are. And that's okay.
Josh Gwynn: So it'll be good to talk to her and also I think when we talk about gathering in space I think of Louisiana, I think of Second Lines, and Mardi Gras.
Tracy Clayton: Ooh.
Josh Gwynn: And I think we should talk to Mariah Moore who works at the transgender Law center down there and we shared a very special memory that I hold dear to my heart when I think of gathering in space
Tracy Clayton: Oh.
Josh Gwynn: When I think of black people coming together.
Tracy Clayton: I'm excited because I have never witnessed a Second Line.
Josh Gwynn: Ugh.
Tracy Clayton: Isn't that a travesty?
Josh Gwynn: But, before Dr. Joy, before Mariah, I think I know where we should start this episode.
Tracy Clayton: Where should we start this episode?
Josh Gwynn: So, I'm a little bit inspired right now, we're all locked in the house Netflix added a bunch of what you call Blassics to its lineup.
Tracy Clayton: Okay.
Josh Gwynn: One of them is Sister, Sister, and I was watching one of my favorite episodes. Do you know which episode I'm talking about?
Tracy Clayton: Um, if it's not the one where they straighten their hair for the first time ...
Josh Gwynn: And they sing En Vogue in the mirror, oh-
Tracy Gwynn: Yes.
Josh Gwynn:... I love that, I love that episode that episode is a close second, but my favorite episode of Sister Sister is the one where they go to Freaknik
[CLIP]
Speaker 9: Look, you can't go to Freaknik without a car, the party's on the streets, and I want to be a part of the gridlock.
Speaker 10: Oh, don't worry, Chitty Chitty Bang Bang will be causing the gridlock (laughter).
Speaker 9: You got jokes for the car, huh?
Tracy Clayton: Uh, I used to love that episode because I just knew that I was gonna have the same experience.
Josh Gwynn: Right.
Tracy Clayton: I don't even know if I knew what Freaknik was on the way.
Josh Gwynn: Same.
Tracy Clayton: I just knew that when you become of age as a black girl you go to Freaknik and you return a black woman.
Josh Gwynn: Ooh.
Tracy Clayton: And probably pregnant.
Josh Gwynn: Come on black rites of passage. It was just so black and so fun and it was the space to be free, and to show out, and to hang out of a window, and whenever I thought about what spring break would be like, MTV always had these big spring break specials.
Tracy Clayton: I used to love those white ass specials.
Josh Gwynn: But this was the time where I was like, "Oh, there's a black one too?" I want to go to that one.
Tracy Clayton: Yes.
[Music Begins]
Josh Gwynn: So, just to go back a little bit in time Freaknik started off as a spring break celebration in Atlanta, 1983, and it grew from there to be one of the biggest, most legendary, most historied black celebrations in America.
Tracy Clayton: It feels strange to miss an event that you never got to go to..
Josh Gwynn: Right.
Tracy Clayton: I was a whole year old in 1983 when Freaknik started but like the fact that I never got to go to Freaknik is like one of the greatest tragedies in my young dramatic life.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Tracy Clayton: I was really sad about it, I'm still sad about it, but now I'm also sad on another level because we can't go outside and do anything.
Josh Gwynn: Anything.
Tracy Clayton: Just the idea that once upon a time black people could go outside and be in the same place and just be black together and happy, for the most part, I mean, there's always people who act up, you know what I mean?
Josh Gwynn: Right, right.
Tracy Clayton: We're, we're humans like I can't believe that that was a thing that happened.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah. I mean, 1983, I wasn't even thought of yet, but-
Tracy Clayton: You know what, that's cute glad you mentioned that in my face, thanks.
Josh Gwynn: But the myth of Freaknik, what it represented is like what we're kind of circling around and what we're kind of subconsciously desiring.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: It's like that thing that I talk about when it's like you've seen a home video so many times it feels like a memory, that's how I feel about Freaknik.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah, and your brain is like, "Oh, this really happened to us.” But then you're like, "No it didn't." Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. It's so strange how Freaknik seems to be a thing that all black people know about, whether they were there or not.
Josh Gwynn: It was like a southern thing but like remember Lil Kim even referenced it.
[CLIP]
Lil Kim: Want a cheap chick better go down to Freaknik.
Tracy Clayton: You gotta hit me up ...
Josh Gwynn: Hey.
Tracy Clayton:... buy this girl gifts of course, yes. Speaking of Lil Kim and Freaknik/Freaknik, I feel like it's so appropriate because when I was younger I didn't fully know what it was or what happened, I just knew that it was salacious ...
Josh Gwynn: Right.
Tracy Clayton: And I knew that it was salacious because my older brother, who's eight years older than me, he would go with his friends every year. He always came back with a Freaknik t-shirt. I did not even know honestly until today that it started off as a spring break thing because them motherfuckers wasn't in college, they wasn't in school they just went, you know what I mean? So I always thought it was just like this big pilgrimage that like the cool Black people made, and, you know, like you were out probably wearing like swimsuits or something, I don't know, doing stuff that my mama would be mad about because she was always mad at him when he came back from Freaknik.
[Music Ends]
Josh Gwynn: I think Freaknik represents to me what black joy out loud in public looks like.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: And whether it was actually that, the idea of that is almost more important.
Tracy Clayton: You know what I just realized?
Josh Gwynn: What?
Tracy Clayton: You know how some people refer to all soft drinks or pops as cokes?
Josh Gwynn: Yes.
Tracy Clayton: I feel like I do the same thing with Freaknik, you know?
Josh Gwynn: Okay.
Tracy Clayton: Like even though things like the West Indian Day parade up here, you know? That's not Freaknik, but I think of it as, "Oh, northern Freaknik." You know what I mean?
Josh Gwynn: I love this. Everything is Freaknik.
Tracy Clayton: Everything is Freaknik, and for me the closest that we had to Freaknik at home in Louisville was the derby.
Josh Gwynn: Like the Kentucky Derby?
Tracy Clayton: Absolutely.
Josh Gwynn: With the big hats, and the mint juleps, and all that?
Tracy Clayton: Mm-hmm (affirmative), and horses somewhere out there.
Josh Gwynn: Wait, take me there.
Tracy Clayton: Do you want to go there?
Josh Gwynn: Let's go there.
Tracy Clayton: Take me to Derby yeah. Okay, let's go to Derby.
[Music Begins]
Tracy Clayton: Okay, so, The Kentucky Derby is a horse race that happens in Louisville, Kentucky at Churchill Downs first Saturday in May. And I think that as far as pop culture is concerned, like as pop culture representation, it is a decadent weekend where people with money to lose on horses, they get all dressed up and they drink mint juleps, and they go to this very pretty, very beautifully manicured race track if you want to read up more on this version of The Kentucky Derby there is an essay called The Kentucky Derby is Decadent and Depraved written by Louisville native, Hunter S. Thompson.
Josh Gwynn: He's describing the white derby?
Tracy Clayton: Absotutely, he is.
Josh Clayton: So that means that there's a white derby and there's a Black derby?
Tracy Clayton: Oh, hell yeah there is.
Josh Gwynn: Aye, tell me about the black one.
Tracy Clayton: Okay. So the Black derby is the version of Freaknik. We don't really care much about the horses, the black folks are in the west end having barbecues as far as the eye could see before the police came and shut it down. I mean, it was just like a reason to like be out. We weren't like walking up and down the streets going, "Yeah, such and such horse won, oh my gosh I'm so excited.” We ain’t give a shit, we didn't give a shit. Black derby is basically strictly for black joy. Having your derby outfit was a thing, like you know how some people like will start planning for their birthday in January even though that birthday is not until August? "I gotta get me a birthday outfit." Same shit with derby. Derby for me, it was about blackness but it was I think more so than that it was about being a black Louisvillian because like Louisville is such a segregated city, and I've always known that, but like there's no better portrait of its segregation than derby because it means something totally different for black people and for white people and this weekend was just like a time to just be out in the streets in West Louisville from West Louisville and we're here because of West Louisville basically, right? And so for me it was a moment of pride to be able to physically be in the center of so much joy, and it was joyous. Louisville, being in Kentucky, like nobody was talking about that shit on TV and the pop culture that I was watching or whatever, we didn't get shouted out in songs for real, aside from Master P- ah, he does shout out Louisville in his song.
Tracy Clayton: Yes. But this weekend was when people, not only from Louisville, but people from Cincinnati, and Indianapolis, and Atlanta, and Chicago, and people with different accents than ours, you know, like to see them spending money, renting these big ass cars to come to Louisville and be seen, and to be a part of what we had going on, it just felt so fucking good.
Josh Gwynn: Like Louisville's birthday.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah, like Louisville's birthday, it's just like, "See, we lit too, come on down here and, uh, turn up one time."
Josh Gwynn: I love that there's this weekend where everyone gets to celebrate being black in Louisville.
Tracy Clayton: Black and seen in Louisville.
Josh Gwynn: Black and seen in Louisville. Did you guys have it this year?
Tracy Clayton: Kind of. So the actual race itself, they postponed it because of COVID and when the race finally happened like people were there, they were in the stands, I don't remember seeing a whole bunch of masks or whatever, but that part happened, but the black derby portion, like that, unfortunately, was all but ended years ago by the city, by the police, by whomsoever...
Josh Gwynn: So black Derby got shut down?
Tracy Clayton: Really? RIP to black people having fun, in public.
Josh Gwynn: I feel like this is what happens with a lot of black celebrations. It's what happened to Freaknik when all eyes were on Atlanta because of the Olympics
Tracy Clayton: Wait, that’s why it got shut down?
Josh Gwynn: Yeah. That’s what some people say.
Josh Gwynn: I think that there's something really, really beautiful about the idea of this dedicated space for us to be our full selves out loud in public-
Tracy Clayton: Yeah.
Josh Gwynn:...to gather, to grieve.
Josh Gwynn: It feels cathartic. Like it feels like a place where we process happiness and process joy, but also process trauma.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah. You just get together and just let it all out. Whatever the it is.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Tracy Clayton: You know?
Josh Gwynn: It reminds me of this one moment that I will never forget ever.
Tracy Clayton: Oh. What was it, what was it?
Josh Gwynn: Okay, so the year's 2018. I was in New Orleans for work and Aretha Franklin had just passed away.
Tracy Clayton: Hmm, RIP.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah, RIP. I had just met Mariah Moore, who was showing me around the city, right? New Orleans is my favorite city in America.
Tracy Clayton: Mine too.
Josh Gwynn: I love it. There, there's this like-
Tracy Clayton: It's magic.
Josh Gwynn: It's magic.
Tracy Clayton: It's a magical place.
Josh Gwynn: There's something so familiar and so just innately comfortable there. And so Mariah was nice enough to show me around the city. She showed me around Tremé, which is the oldest black neighborhood in the United States. Tremé is like this place that plays a central part in Black American art in the formation of jazz. And when we were down there, she was like, J”osh, I think there's about to be a second line for Aretha Franklin.”
Tracy Clayton: Oh my God.
Josh Gwynn: “Do you want to go?” And I have never said yes so fast in my entire life.
Tracy Clayton: But anyway pause. I'm pretty sure I know what a second line is but on behalf of people listening, who may not see I'm not asking for me, define for me what a second line is.
Josh Gwynn: You know, instead of me, someone who's not from New Orleans explaining it think we should talk to Mariah and she can do it for both of us.
Tracy Clayton: Smart, you should have a podcast or something.
[Music Begins]
[CLIP]
Dustin Stephanie: All right, baby. This is word formation mother AKA Dustin mother AKA, Stephanie y'all already know. Y'all already know. What is a second line? A second line is a big free party in New Orleans that you get together and you do whatever you want to do.
Ayesha Davis: My name is Ayesha Davis and we are the second line which is a New Orleans tradition, culture where the beat hit you and you move your feet.
Courtney: Okay. Well, my name is Courtney. We are in a Tremé area and the second line is just like it celebrates life, even though, you know, it originated from the day like jazz wasn't all there, but it celebrates life and it's just like a parade with a brass band.
Speaker 14: It's been in the Tremé area. The Tremé area is like historic with the Congo and stuff with a band and then a, and then it just kept on from Africa and you just, just kept on going. And basically it's just like a celebration. That's all it is with the bands, the trombones, the tubers, the, um, drums and it’s historical. You enjoy yourself. You celebrate for dead, the living.
Tayshia: My name is Tayshia and I'm from New Orleans, born and raised for 32 years. A second line to me is a gathering of beautiful musicians coming together with a wonderful community of people, making a musical celebration.
Speaker 17: You do what you want on that Sunday morning and party. You heard me in New Orleans. Okay. It goes down in New Orleans okay.
Mariah Moore: So second lines have a very, very long and deep history throughout New Orleans. Second line started in the 1800s but are linked back to our West African ancestors, when they were brought here in bondage against their will. On Sundays which was a free day for the enslaved, they used to meet at Congo Square and formed these circles as they did back in West Africa.
Josh Gwynn: Tracy, I love the way that Mariah describes this. She said folks would sing, they would dance, they would use their physical bodies in the physical space around them in order to connect with each other, the earth and their ancestors.
Tracy Clayton: That aside from the slavery part is beautiful. I love that.
Josh Gwynn: You're right. But just like Freaknik, just like Black Derby, whenever we gather in mass our collective emotions are seen as a threat.
Mariah Moore: They were eventually banned because the white man thought that they posed a threat to them.
Tracy Clayton: The more things change, the more they stay the same. Why does that sound familiar?
Josh Gwynn: Okay. Exactly. But they kept going even through Jim Crow. They formed social aid and pleasure clubs which were these networks that helped community out in times of need. They helped you when you were sick or they helped you when a member of your family had passed.
Tracy Clayton: I didn't know that.
Mariah Moore: Second lines for us today are our entertainment and pleasure. It's where we come together. And a second line may start with 50 people but it may end with 15,000 people because as you keep going, people just keep adding on and you may, you know, meet people that you don't know or come from different backgrounds or socioeconomic status, race, religion, identity. But in that moment, we're just all connecting through the joy of the sound of the band and the music and laughter or whatever cause we're supporting in that moment.
Tracy Clayton: I get it. I see it, I understand it but my question is the emotion of the second line. Is it like dancing through the pain, is it like crying and weeping and wailing as you're dancing, you know what I mean,is it like a hodgepodge of all those emotions?
Josh Gwynn: It's all of those emotions at the same time. Like you're feeling joy. You're feeling sadness. You're feeling grief. You're feeling happiness. You're feeling connected. You're feeling the space to process the emotions that you're having at that point.
Tracy Clayton: I see.
Josh Gwynn: And so I want to take you back to that day where me and Mariah had that experience at the second line. We started on North Claiborne Avenue, which is like a major street in New Orleans. There's this road that goes over it so it kind of makes this continuous open tunnel. Aretha Franklin had just passed, so there were hundreds of people, journalists were there, everyone knew it was about to go down. We saw the community just organically manifest. Everything just came together in physical space in the neighborhood Tremé, known fow how much they like a second line. It’s this tradition that folks learn really early. I remember there was this boy named Alvin, he was 6 years old, he brought his trombone, and I asked him what a second line is to him.
Alvin: Uh, it's when bands play and everybody else be coming and secondlining.
Tracy Clayton: Oh my gosh. I'm for real, about to cry because I just can't, he sounds like my nephew and he just sounds so little and adorable. He's just like, “What do you mean? A second line is when people would be second lining.”
Josh Gwynn: Duh.
Tracy Clayton: I bet there was no follow-up, was there?
Tracy Clayton: He was probably like, “Well, all right, sir, thank you and have a good day.”
Josh Gwynn: Kids just get straight to the point, right? And he had his trombone with him.
Tracy Clayton: So wait the trombone is like the real big one, right?
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Tracy Gwynn: It had to be taller than him.
Josh Gwynn: Oh it was.And he was really nervous to play it.
Josh Gwynn: Can you play that right there?
Alvin: Um...
Josh Gwynn: Can you play me something right now?
Tracy Clayton: I can't deal. My period started a week early and I'm homesick. He's just too cute.
Josh Gwynn: Oh, well then you're definitely not going to like this next part.
Tracy Clayton: Oh no.
Josh Gwynn: I saw exactly what happens when community is brought together. His family, all reassured him. They all told them that they got him and that it was going to be okay and they also told him that they needed him to.
Speaker 18: It's okay, go on.
Alvin: No.
Speaker 19: Everyone's going to, everyone's gonna help you. Come on Al, we depending on you.
Speaker 20: We are taking care of you our friends, come on.
Speaker 19: One, two, come on play Al.
Speaker 18: Come on Al. let's go. Come on Alvin, everybody is waiting for you.
Tracy Clayton: Oh my God. I'm assuming that then just like the musical spirit left out of little Alvin, but did it help the pep talk?
Josh Gwynn: Yeah. Well that and an old parenting trick?
Tracy Clayton: What was that?
Josh Gwynn: Threatening your kid with school.
Speaker 17: Give us a chance to get our dance step on.
Speaker 18: Okay, we got to go, let's go get ready for school tomorrow.
Alvin: Uh, no.
Speaker 17: Then come on.
Tracy Clayton: He said that no quick. (laughs)
Josh Gwynn: So when he was confronted with the choices, Alvin decided to lead us on our way.
Alvin: I'm going to play one thing and it's going to be like, and then that’s it.
Speaker 17: Okay, let's go get them.
Speaker 18: Yeah. Let's good, yeah, let's go, let go get them. I can hear you. Yeah, let's go. Let's go. Come on, Al, lean in, lean in.
Tracy Clayton: You better play. You better play Alvin.
Josh Gwynn: Play for everybody.
Tracy Clayton: Aw..
Josh Gwynn: Oh.
Josh Gwynn: I just felt so honored to be in a place I had read about, seen in movies, read in books. I was there and I felt really lucky and really connected.
Tracy Clayton: It sounds like church. there has never been a trombone or a trumpet in the church that I grew up in, but it sounds and it feels like church.
Josh Gwynn: And it felt like church.
Tracy Gwynn: Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: As we walked and we danced and sweat and screamed, and we sang and the children dance and people cheered them on I just remember thinking like, wow, I really needed this moment.
Tracy Clayton: I think I also needed this moment right here.
Josh Gwynn: And Tracy, that was in Summer of 2018, which feels like a lifetime ago. So I just remember it being such a moment where I felt connected to blackness and community. So I thought with everything that's happened, what's it like for Mariah now in New Orleans, a place where folks lean so heavily on the ability to lean on each other, you know, and all of a sudden outside is closed and connection is shut down.
Mariah Moore: This was really hard for us, because we are such a social group of people. I can walk out of my door and I will have a conversation with a random stranger who's walking by like I've known them all my life, but that's just who we are. When I meet people, I hug them and you know, we embrace and so it's really been difficult for us. And I think that our people thrive off of that interaction with others.
Tracy Clayton: You know, something that I did not think about is how outside being closed impacts black people in different parts of the country. Because you know, up here, you get used to not speaking to somebody that you don't know, but at home you walk past them, well, let me personalize it, if I walk past somebody and they don't speak, I'm just like, “what the fuck is your problem?”
Josh Gwynn: Okay.
Tracy Clayton: You must have a terrible day, you know what I mean?
Josh Gwynn: Exactly.
Tracy Clayton: And just like that, innate, like just the inclination to just reach out and say hi and to speak-
Josh Gwynn: And touch your neighbor.
Tracy Clayton: And just say, “Neighbor.”
Josh Gwynn: To let him know that you are there.
Tracy Clayton: Yes, exactly.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Tracy Clayton: Wow. That must be here, it must be super hard to deal with that down there.
Josh Gwynn: And it's just really ironic to me that in this time where we could use a place to put all of our emotions where we could use a place to process our grief, it's like wouldn't now be a great time to have a second line, you know? Tracy, the thing I love about second lines is that there's this place of contradiction, right? It’s about death. It's about life. It's about sadness. It's about joy. All of these things come together like gumbo.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, I see what you did. I'll allow it.
Josh Gwynn: I'm sorry, I'm just hungry. But they all come together in this one place, you know and you're able to laugh and dance and cry and sweat and just hug each other and celebrate in real ways that don't feel accessible right now.
Tracy Clayton: That's beautiful.
Josh Gwynn: I was going to say that I was really hyped to talk about second lines, but now I'm sad. (laughs)
Tracy Clayton: Aw.
Josh Gwynn: Like how do we gather now? What does it mean that we can't be in the same place and laugh together and hug each other and celebrate in real ways?
Tracy Clayton: Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: What does it mean that we don't have a place to process our feelings together?
Tracy Clayton: And what is it going to do to us in the long run?
Josh Gwynn: For real.
Tracy Clayton: Well, look, listen, listen and look. I say this several times a day, but we need therapy. Everybody needs therapy. Especially like right now of all times. We need to talk to somebody who has the answers or at least some insight to these questions, because the idea of what happens when we can't get together and be happy and joyful together in a world where our joy often literally keeps us alive Is scary. Yes. So we're not talking to my therapist because...top secret. Okay. I wish I would. I never even uttered the name of my therapist to more than one person.
Josh Gwynn: You know I think that's smart. But, I think that there's someone else we can talk to.
Tracy Clayton: I think so too.
Josh Gwynn: I think we should talk to the therapist for black podcasters.
Tracy Clayton: Oh. Would that be the one and only Dr. Joy Harden Bradford?
Josh Gwynn: Yes.
Tracy Clayton: Oh.
Josh Gwynn: From therapy for black girls.
Tracy Clayton: Uh, you know, what a fan I am a black girls having therapy.
Josh Gwynn: Yes, me too.
Tracy Clayton: Wonderful.
Josh Gwynn: Me too.
Tracy Clayton: Like everybody's needs therapy.
Josh Gwynn: Okay. So let's talk to her after the break.
Tracy Clayton: Let's do it.
[Music Begins]
[29:38 Interview with Dr. Joy begins]
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: I think especially for black people, this idea of community and gathering is essential for a lot of us. If we just think about our history, there is a lot of celebrating and meaning making that comes from us being together.
Tracy Clayton: That's Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, host of the podcast Therapy for Black Girls. And now, even though my insurance won't accept it, unofficially the unauthorized therapist for Back Issue.
Josh Gwynn: She was so generous with her time as Tracy and I asked her about everything we've been feeling. And even though she can't legally give us medical advice, she was dropping gems about where to put our emotions when we don't feel like we have a place to. What life might be like once outside opens again, and why, if you're like me, you might've realized Zoom is exhausting.
Tracy Clayton: Spoiler, it’s because people are on Zoom. They stress you.
[Music Ends]
Josh Gwynn: So what happens to our physical bodies when we are deprived of the ability to gather?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: So I think a lot of different things can happen. One thing that I have been thinking a lot about is what we call touch deprivation. So another word for this is skin hunger. What they first told us when the pandemic first started was, you know, don't touch anybody, right? Like no handshakes, no hugs, no any of that. And we really actually need touch to kind of, again, continue to grow as humans. And so when we don't have that in large part because of something like a pandemic, then you can see things like increases in anxiety and depression. When our stress levels do increase, that means that we are making more cortisol in our system, which then can lead to things like higher blood pressure, heart rate increases, like those kinds of things. And so we don't always think about how much a nice warm hug from somebody we haven't seen in a while, or, you know just even casually talking to someone, you know, when you're laughing-
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: And you touch them on the shoulder, even little things like that helped to keep us connected. And so, because we are really only maybe physically able to interact with people in our homes, I think a lot of people are struggling with stuff like touch deprivation right now.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah. It's funny that you mention that because I've ran into people that I know or something like maybe at the grocery store and there's always this weird moment, we're so used to either shaking hands, fist bumping or hugging or whatever. And, everyone's like, “what do we do now?”
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: And that's the part that I'm really worried about in terms of coming out of this, whatever that looks like, I think that there will be a very awkward period of readjustment about how to even interact with people on large scale again.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, lord.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Um, because for so long it has been kind of dangerous to do so.
Josh Clayton: How long can pass before I forget how to interact with people again? Because I feel like I don't remember this being this hard.
Josh Gwynn: Like I feel like I'm out of practice. Does that make sense?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: It absolutely does. And I think that that is what a lot of our experience is going to be. So I don't necessarily know that there is a time limit in terms of like, "Okay, three months versus six months." But I think a lot of us will be readjusting. Social norms even will be very different, right? So even if we are able to gather en masse again, will people continue to wear face masks even after we don't necessarily have to? Right? I've heard a lot of people say, "I'm never going back to life without a mask in public." You know?
Josh Gwynn: Okay.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: So I think the readjustment period will be something that will have to be given some thought.
Tracy Clayton: I have never thought about any of this, and now I'm like, "Oh my God I have to learn again how to be in the world?" I feel worried. I'm worried about, you know, what is going to happen to us as humans and us as black humans. What ways have you seen or noticed society and black folks adapting so that we can stay connected and to make sure that we don't lose so much ground?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: I also worry as this continues just about people's mental health in general but I have also been really encouraged and moved by the ways I've seen community really transform to look in different ways right now, right? So I think even if we think about the Verzuz battles that sprung up really early.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah, I love those. Yeah.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Or DJ Nice, right? D-Nice-spinning on Instagram. I think that is what we as black people do is kind of like figure out a way to continue to create community even when we cannot gather physically. And so I think, leaning on the ideas of how creative people have been with Zoom baby showers and Zoom weddings and scavenger hunts and drive-by graduations. Yes, we had to kind of figure that out on a whim but I also don't want people to think that they are not also still incredibly meaningful. So even though the memories might not look like what we thought they might look like right now they can still be significant nonetheless.
Tracy Clayton: Streaming in the internet means that you can participate and consume what you want when you want it. There's not like appointment television as Josh would call it. Should we be intentional about, "Okay, let me go ahead and watch this Brandy and Monica thing just so I can like be among my people online, if nothing else." Is that a thing we should be intentional about? Would it help us to do?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Yeah, I think that it would, if it feels like a good fit for you. If you have the kind of cultural context to kind of be able to tap in and understand the nuance of what's happening, then I think it is good if you can, to try to participate in those moments, because I think even just briefly, you forget that the world is on fire outside. When you hear people say try to stay connected to your joy as much as possible and find little moments of hope and gratitude when you can, those are the kinds of things that we're talking about because we know that this is going to continue to be tough, especially as we're moving into the colder months, and because holidays are gonna look so different.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, Lord.
Josh Gwynn: Right.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: You know, so I've talked a lot about how so much of this year has really just been one huge lesson in grief. So, you know, it's the grief of loved ones that we've lost, but also just the grief related-
Josh Gwynn: Our way of life.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford:..to the loss of normalcy, our way of life.
Tracy Clayton: Absolutely.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: I mean, there's just a lot that we've lost this year. I am already kind of bracing for what will be a very difficult holiday season. I think it is gonna be important to think about what small joy and laughter and fun you can build into your schedule to try to combat some of the difficulty of the winter.
Josh Gwynn: I think like I've been thinking about that because when thinking about gathering, one of the things that I think about is second lines and how those are a space for grief. And so it's like, we are grieving our lack of space for grief.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: I'm thinking about all the people whose funerals have changed, or not happened, you know, and what do we do with, with emotions that we don't have places to put anymore?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: You're so right about that, Josh and, you know, I think again, as black people, there's a large kind of ceremony that goes with like our burial processes typically, right?
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Like family comes from all over the place and there's a big eating usually somewhere. And, you know, there's a lot that kinda helps with the closure process after a loved one has passed. And so we have not been able to have that. And so I think for a lot of people, that's why the grief probably still feels really raw because you've not been able to kind of make sense of that loss in the ways that we might be able to historically. And so, I think when we have difficult emotions, because emotions are not bad or good, they just are difficult and some easier, when we have difficult emotions like anger and grief, we often wanna run away from them, right? 'Cause they don't feel comfortable. They don't, they're not easy usually to tolerate. But I think it's important to really just allow yourself to feel it.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: If you allow it to kind of run its course, it eventually will. You know, we get afraid of feeling like, "Oh, the, the emotion is gonna overtake me." But it's not gonna overtake you if you can kind of ride the wave long enough to allow it to then come down.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah. One of the most important things I have learned is that an emotion or a feeling cannot kill you.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Yes.
Tracy Clayton: In the midst of it, it feels like it's killing you. Like the grief, the sadness, the missing your mom, the missing your boyfriend, the missing going outside, whatever. It sucks, but if you're listening to this right now, no emotion has murdered you yet. It's such, such a good reminder. So I'm so, so glad that you said that.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: But then I have a question, and I know you can't technically offer me medical advice. But!
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: I cannot.
Josh Gwynn: But why am I so tired of these Zoom meetings? Like why, what, what is different about gathering in digital space or via a Zoom meeting that is so exhausting in a way that gathering in person was not?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Yeah. So I just wanna normalize that for you because I think lots of us feel that way, and I think there are lots of good reasons to feel that way, right? So in addition to just kind of your schedule continuing to be packed when the world is kinda quite literally on fire there are also different sets of skills that you're using to connect in Zoom that you did not have to use in person, right? So you're working harder to try to make eye contact and to try to stay focused where in person you could kind of casually be playing on your phone, but still like really attuned to a conversation, you're using a different set of skills now. And you also don't have some of those nonverbal cues that you have in person that you're working harder to try to find in Zoom. So I think your concentration level is heightened when you're on a Zoom call, but I also think just your bandwidth probably is much lower right now because-
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: You're dealing with, "How do I keep myself and my family safe." And so I think just our cup is probably much emptier, but the demands are increasing. And so I think that there are a lot of reasons why people are just increasingly more irritable, less focused, less motivated, and then you throw interacting digitally on top of it. You're right. Even though I think we have been able to do some incredible things in terms of connecting digitally, I also think it is tapping out our resources in a way that we hadn't expected.
Josh Gwynn: So do you have any tips or tricks to be able to make it through this time in one piece with, you know, all of our nerves intact?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Uh, well, I don't know if we can expect all of our nerves to be intact. I do think you know-
Tracy Clayton: You know what that's at that point.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Exactly. So that, that would be the first one is right, is to have realistic expectations about your bandwidth right now. I think before this, a lot of us wanted to kind of be on all the communities, we wanted to go to all the happy hours, we wanted to do all the things.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: And it feels like because you might be still home, it feels like, "Well, of course I can jump on these 12 Zooms. Like that's not a big deal, right?"
Tracy Clayton: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: And make some sourdough bread.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: And yeah, yeah let me put this poster together, write a book and you know, all of that. And that's really just not realistic on camera when you get on the Zoom, right? Like, do you really need to see my face? And I also would really like to encourage any employers who are listening, to really, really be mindful about what your ideas of productivity need to look like right now.
Tracy Clayton: Hello.
Josh Gwynn: Right.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: 'cause I think after this summer it felt like people were getting a little lax, you know, after like George Floyd got killed and there was, you know, all of the racial commentary, people I think were a little more sensitive, especially to what their black employees might be experiencing. But, you know, black people came into this experience already with a long list of stressors that have not gone down since the summer.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: People are tapped out and fried. And so I think if you are in a position of power to be able to kind of lighten the load, give people days off, give people extra time for the holidays, but still paid I think do that because I think a little bit of kindness goes a long way right now.
Tracy Clayton: This is a public service announcement from my black ass to whoever's listening. Wear your bonnet on these Zoom calls y'all.
Josh Gwynn: Yes.
Tracy Clayton: Wear your bonnet, because it really, really is a feat sometimes for you to just show up anyway.
Josh Gwynn: Right.
Tracy Clayton: And just because you are working from home does not mean that you're not still in your home. You know what I mean?
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Tracy Clayton: And I just feel like my brain in your home, you know what I mean?
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Tracy Clayton: And I just feel like, my brain works the same in this bonnet.. And I'm there! Wear your bonnet? Girl, put your bonnets on!
Josh Gwynn: Oh yes! Yes!
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: I love that remix.
Josh Gwynn: Shout out to Corinne Bailey Rae! But that does bring up this question of how people are dealing with the fact that work is home and home is work and you're never-
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: Leaving work, how do we deal with that?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: So as much as possible I think it is a good idea, if you can, I know space can sometimes be limited, but if you can have a specific place that is work, if it's an office or the dining room table, or whatever. Then allow that to be the workspace and do your very best not to try to work from bed. Because that can impact your sleep, so when we are in bed doing other things besides sex and sleeping, your brain gets confused about what's supposed to be happening in bed and so then it just thinks like, oh it's a party time because we do everything from bed right? And so if you can have a boundary around your sleep space, then that is a really good idea. I've also been encouraging people to set alarms at the end of your work day, so if you would've been properly walking out of the office at 05:00 o'clock, set an alarm to still leave the office at 05:00 o'clock so that work is not bleeding into your evening hours, because that's a lot of what I've been hearing is that people would just look up and it's 07:00 o'clock, and they haven't eaten, they haven't done anything else, right?
Tracy Clayton: Oh my gosh.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: So you don't have some of those same cues that you had maybe when you were going in to the office, so you have to then impose some of those boundaries, so that you can remind yourself, like okay I can't just work all the time, there's still other things I need to do.
Tracy Clayton: Do you hate Zoom more now too?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Absolutely.
Tracy Clayton: Okay. I was going to say, since you're a therapist, do you just have like this superpower of just being like, no I get it while it's happening-
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: No.
Josh Gwynn: I always think about therapists like in the same way that I think when I was little, I thought about teachers where it's like, of course your experience is better than mine, of course-
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: No.
Josh Gwynn: -I guess the older I've gotten, the more I'm like, oh you're a human being too.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Exactly. We're all struggling. You know, like I'm praying my two little ones don't bust in this door at any moment, in the middle of this podcast recording right. We are all really just doing the very best that we can. And so-
Tracy Clayton: Absolutely.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: -I think that, in a lot of ways, this has probably made some therapeutic relationships a little stronger. Because you're now able to see-
Josh Gwynn: Empathy.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford:-your therapist as more of a human, then maybe you were when you were just in the office.
Tracy Clayton: Amen. A thing that I've been seeing as far as like, black people like gathering online again, is a lot of self help sort of, and I will admit, I was like, I don't know how this is going to work. You know, I don't know that this is the same as logging on to Zoom and doing like a breathing or meditation practice versus doing it in person, which I would have done. And I'm going to admit, I was just like, I'm not even going to try because it's so different and it's not the same. This conversation has inspired me to at least try, or to at least think about what to do when we can't see each other, because now we know that it's important and it's necessary, so maybe the answer is trying and being open and giving yourself grace.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Yes! Yeah, because I think you, you, you bring up an important point Tracy, is that it's not necessarily going to be the same, but it can still be meaningful, right? So I think when you're putting the pressure on something to be the same, then of course you're going to be disappointed, right?
Tracy Clayton: Right.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: But you might even enjoy it more than you would have in person. You know, so I think taking that pressure of it having to be the same, will probably go very far for you.
Josh Gwynn: What do you think is the most important thing for people to take away from this conversation, in terms of how to navigate this crazy-ass time that we're in?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Yes, I think it would be to work really hard on giving yourself grace. We are all just doing the very best that we can, there is no blueprint for how to survive a pandemic with all your nerves intact. I think that you should expect that you might be down to your last shoe by the time we get out of this and that is okay.
[Music Begins]
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: So being gracious with yourself, but also extending that grace to other people. And I think it's important to remind people that a lot of us do a really good job of giving grace to other people, but then are super critical of ourselves, right? And so, it's important for you to be nice and kind and gentle with yourself, the same way you would be your best friend, right? You wouldn't be like, girl get up out that bed, you been laying down for three days, right? You probably wouldn't say that to a best friend, but sometimes we say that to ourselves and so I think it's important to remember to use that kind and gentle voice with yourself too.
Tracy Clayton: I swear it feels like I'm looking around like, “Is my therapist here,” because she's always just like “Be nice to yourself, be kind to yourself.” I'm just like, how is that always the answer?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Well it's not always the answer, but it's a good place to start.
Tracy Clayton: It absolutely is. It absolutely is.
Josh Gwynn: I see what you just did, thank you so much Doctor Joy, I feel so much better.
Tracy Clayton: I was going to say, I can't believe we all just got a free therapy session. This is amazing.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: I will drop my cash app in the credits.
Josh Gwynn: Yes.
[46:57 Interview with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford Ends]
[Music Begins]
Tracy Clayton: So Josh, guess what.
Josh Gwynn: Yes, Ma'am?
Tracy Clayton: It is time for us to embody the spirit of a one, Tyra Banks, if you will.
Josh Gwynn: Okay.
Tracy Clayton: And just do some reflecting, you know. So, did we…
[CLIP]
Tyra Banks: Learn something from this!
Josh Gwynn: I learned a lot.
Tracy Clayton: What'd you learn?
Josh Gwynn: I mean I learned that I really, really, really, really miss people.
Tracy Clayton: Don't tell nobody. Don't tell nobody.
Josh Gwynn: I won't, it's a secret.
Tracy Clayton: But I do too.
Josh Gwynn: Oo girl, you in trouble.
Tracy Clayton: I know I don't like it.
Josh Gwynn: I'm about to bust your entire secret up.
Tracy Clayton: No! No!
Josh Gwynn: No, your secret's safe with me.
Tracy Clayton: Yay.
Josh Gwynn: but, isn't it crazy to like, miss things that would've annoyed you before?
Tracy Clayton: Absolutely. I don't like being around people, I don't like it. In general.
Josh Gwynn: I can confirm this.
Tracy Clayton: But like if a celestial being came down in like a huge like bubble and was like, for the next 24 hours COVID doesn't exist, you can go do whatever you want to, I am out there, I'm going to put on my best whatever clothes that I can still fit after quarantine, I don't know.
Josh Gwynn: Get your freakum dress. Yes.
Tracy Clayton: You know! And just go out and be among humans-
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Tracy Clayton: I can't believe that I miss people.
Josh Gwynn: Isn't that crazy? But I will be forever grateful to Dr. Joy and her infinite wisdom.
Tracy Clayton: Oh my gosh.
Josh Gwynn: And giving us all of these tools to make it until then
Tracy Clayton: Seriously. Also, speaking of things that I learned, I learned that we need people to live and survive and be okay.
Josh Gwynn: You know. Yeah.
Tracy Clayton: Which my brain is like, “That sounds fake and-also like challenge accepted, motherfucker.” We'll see. But when she was talking about like, um, what was it, skin hunger? I was like-
Josh Gwynn: Yes, skin hunger.
Tracy Clayton: -oh my gosh-
Josh Gwynn: What a beautiful phrase.
Tracy Clayton:-oh my gosh. I know, it sounds-
Josh Gwynn: If someone doesn't have an album called Skin Hunger they need one. That our new band.
Tracy Clayton: I was going to say let me put this in the calendar: write a song called skin hunger.
[Music Begins]
Josh Gwynn: I feel like Mariah in her beautiful description of what second lines are and what they mean, made me miss my old life, right? Like made me miss the ways in which we gathered, what Freaknik was, what Derby was, what Mardi Gras and even like, holidays are like- where you're able to like, see your family and that sort of thing. And Dr. Joy made me feel better because I do feel a little bit better equipped to deal with and process through how I'm feeling-but I think that I'm still left with a bunch of like, unresolved feelings in terms of... everything isn't okay and that's, it's not fine but it is kind of what it is and so, I think a lot of times I don't give myself enough credit in terms of like, you know me, Tracy. I love to get shit done.
Tracy Clayton: To a stressful degree.
Josh Gwynn: To a stressful degree, to me too! What do you think it feels like in here?
Tracy Clayton: I can't imagine.
Josh Gwynn: But, in the same way that completing a to-do list task would make me feel so much better, like a year ago. I'm trying to take everything into consideration. I'm trying to take into consideration that I moved across the country, that I haven't seen friends and family for almost a year now. That my-
Tracy Clayton: Also pardon me, you moved across the country during a pandemic-
Josh Gwynn: During a pandemic!
Tracy Clayton: -and political unrest and race wars.
Josh Gwynn: Exactly.
Tracy Clayton: And all that.
Josh Gwynn: And I'm just doing so many things and the world is spinning and it's burning, which I feel like should be enough, right now.
[Music Ends]
Tracy Clayton: So are you trying to say that you're still here.
Josh Gwynn: Here. Yeah. Here, shout out to Tisha Campbell.
Tracy Clayton: Shout out to Tisha Campbell. Because that is the word, like sometimes like, that's it. That's enough. I know I'm in survival mode, I don't know about y'all.
Josh Gwynn: Right.
Tracy Clayton: But like, this is why showing yourself grace is so important because we are living in a world and in a situation where it's so easy to feel lazy.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Tracy Clayton: It's so easy to feel mad at yourself because you didn't tick off anything on that to-do list.
Josh Gwynn: Right.
Tracy Clayton: When there are so many reasons as to why you didn't.
Josh Gwynn: Right.
Tracy Clayton: So, being able to say, you know what, I did not do everything that I wanted to do when I got out of bed today, but I got my black ass out of bed today and that is something. Considering the weight that I'm carrying, considering how good my bed feels, are you kidding me? Do you know how I would love to just stay horizontal until this is over?
Josh Gwynn: Right.
Tracy Clayton: But like really we need to reevaluate like, our idea of productivity, which is just like Dr. Joy said, you know what I mean? It's not just about how many things you cross off your to-do list, it's not about how much money you managed to make, it's about how you were able to survive the day. Being alive is pretty productive.
[Outro Music Begins]
[Credits]
Tracy Clayton: Back Issue is a production of Pineapple Street studios.
Josh Gwynn: This show was created and is hosted by Tracy Clayton.
Tracy Clayton: And Josh Gwynn. Our lead producers are Josh Gwynn and Emanuel Hapsis.
Josh Gwynn: Our managing producer is John Asante.
Tracy Clayton: Our senior editor is Leila Day.
Josh Gwynn: Our associate producers are Alexis Moore and Xandra Ellin.
Tracy Clayton: Our intern is Briana Garrett. Special thanks to Gabrielle Young.
Josh Gwynn: Our executive producers are Jenny Weis-Burmann and Max Linsky.
Tracy Clayton: Okay real quick, I have an apology to give out to maybe everybody, so what happened was, I've been messing up Don Will's social handle, basically.
Josh Gwynn: Ooh Don Will. The person that makes the music for this show.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah, the person that I've known for maybe 20 years now. Apologies to Don Will who you can follow on the socials @donwill without a DJ. Just Don Will.
Josh Gwynn: @donwill.
Tracy Clayton: If you're following DJ Don Will, we don't know who he is, we don't know her. I'm not saying to unfollow, but just make sure that you do follow the actual Don Will as well.
Josh Gwynn: Just think about it.
Tracy Clayton: Just, just think about it.
Tracy Clayton: Consider it.
Tracy Clayton: And while you're following people, you can follow me on the socials @brokenmintpoverty and I double checked, that is the correct handle.
Josh Gwynn: And I'm @regardingjosh. Subscribe to this podcast, wherever free podcasts are sold and tell your friends about it, give us a five star rating, it really helps. I mean, isn't this, like us getting together every week, isn't it like we're gathering.
Tracy Clayton: Oh my god.
Josh Gwynn: We're having a party.
Tracy Clayton: It is like a party.
Josh Gwynn: Let's keep it going.
Tracy Clayton: Let's keep the party going. This is so emotional. Ooh, you want to know what y'all should do, you should have a listening party over Zoom, which y'all's friends maybe.
Josh Gwynn: Yes.
Tracy Clayton: It's kind of like Freaknik, a little bit.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah, if you have any other ideas, tell us @backissuepodcast on Instagram.
Tracy Clayton: Yay.
Josh Gwynn: See you next week.
[Music Ends]
Tracy Clayton: Bye. Keep them bonnets on, if Jesus says come as you are, we my bosses can't say that. Oh what are y'all Jesus now? Is that what?
Josh Gwynn: And if Jesus Christ had dreads, shake 'em.
Tracy Clayton: Shake 'em.
Speaker 20: If you want smoke, if you want to dance, if you want to party, whatever and it's legal. You do what you want on that Sunday morning and party. You heard me in New Orleans, okay. It goes down New Orleans.