BACK ISSUE
Remember When We Found Ourselves? (Feat. Jill Scott and Perry Fair)
Before We Bid Season 1 Adieu, Did You Know Tracy Almost Got An Ankh Tattoo?
This week, Josh and Tracy close out Back Issue's first season with one last trip, all the way back to the heyday of Neo Soul, from how the genre shaped them to their faves. They talk to Perry Fair, one of the creatives behind Coke’s iconic Nu Classic Soul ad. Then, they sit down with THEE Jill Scott (AHHHH!!!) to talk about her music, her legacy, and remembering our favorite parts of ourselves.
Episode Transcription
[0:00 Begins]
Speaker 1: Beyonce, you look like Luther Vandross.
Speaker 2: Ho’, but make it fashion.
Speaker 3: But you ain't heard that from me.
Speaker 4: You see when you do clownery, the clown comes back to bite.
Speaker 3: I do my sleep cuz of y'all.
Speaker 5: It's Brittany bitch.
Speaker 3: Y'all not gonna get no sleep 'cause of me.
Speaker 6: Who said that.(singing)
[Music Begins]
Josh Gwynn: Welcome to Back issue.
Tracy Clayton: A weekly podcast that revisits formative moments in pop culture that we still think about
Josh Gwynn: This week, I think you need to call Tyrone.
Tracy Clayton: Call him!
Josh Gwynn: We're talking about Neo soul.
Tracy Clayton: We are, but you can't use my phone. The live version of that song is the best version.
[Music Changes]
Tracy Clayton: Each week we'll go back into the past and revisit unforgettable moments that we all think we remember.
Josh Gwynn: And learn what they can teach us about where we are now.
Tracy Clayton: I'm the Miseducation of Tracy Clayton.
Josh Gwynn: And I'm Josh Gwynn, volumes one and two.
[Musc Ends]
Tracy Clayton: Uh, hey, Josh.
Josh Gwynn: Hey Tracy Trace.
Tracy Clayton: Guess what?
Josh Gwynn: What?
Tracy Clayton: Today we're talking about Neo Soul.
Josh Gwynn: Yes...ashay
Tracy Clayton: Snaps ashay,ashay everyone.
Josh Gwynn: I mean, we know what neo soul is right?
Tracy Clayton: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh Gwynn: It's a term that's actually credited to Kedar Massenburg from Motown Records. It's so cold in the D.
Tracy Clayton: So cold.
Josh Gwynn: Shout out to home girl with the jean jacket.
Tracy Clayton: Still doing that bob.
Josh Gwynn: And he reportedly and allegedly coined the term in the 1990s.
Tracy Clayton: Right, right, true, true. But I do want to just take a little bit of time to talk about the texture and the feeling of Neo soul and also what it's meant to you and I.
Josh Gwynn: Okay.
Tracy Clayton: Did you know that I- I am gonna regret saying this, but I came very close several times to getting an ankh tattoo, like a permanent tattoo.
Josh Gwynn: Uh-I
Tracy Clayton: You know what, I knew I shouldn't have told you that. Anyway, moving on. Moving on. Instead of dwelling on that, I think that we should talk, I can't stand you, I think we should talk to someone who documented how big this movement was in a way that feels very American.
Josh Gwynn: How?
Tracy Clayton: Well, what's more American than capitalism?
Josh Gwynn: True.
Tracy Clayton: Nothing, nothing.
Josh Gwynn: You right.
Tracy Clayton: I want to talk about like, where corporations were spending their money and how they interacted with the genre. So we're gonna talk to Perry Fair, who invented the Nu Classic style campaign for coke that was a major moment for Neo soul.
Josh Gwynn: Imma do you one better? We should talk to Perry Fair, and we should talk to someone who was there.
Tracy Clayton: Who? Who?
Josh Gwynn: I think we should talk to the one the only...
Tracy Clayton: Tyrese
Josh Gwynn: What? No. We should talk to Jill Scott.
Tracy Clayton: Better answer, much better answer.
Josh Gwynn: Yes, taking my freedom.
Tracy Clayton: What you gon’ do with it?
Josh Gwynn: Pulling it off the show.
Tracy Clayton: Then, where you gonna put it?
Josh Gwynn: Putting it on my chain.
Tracy Clayton: What you gonna do with the chain? It's a solid to do list, solid.
Josh Gwynn: But first, before we get there, Tracy, when did you fall in love with Neo Soul?
Tracy Clayton: I can actually tell you exactly when and where.
Josh Gwynn: Tell me, tell me, tell me.
Tracy Clayton: Do we happen to have a “doo doo doo?”. ‘Cause we're gonna go back in time, we're gonna go back in time to the year 2000 and 2000, It was just 2000.
[Music Begins]
Tracy Clayton: Am a young fresh faced very supple baby Millison in college, and I went to college in Lexington, Kentucky, and both the college and the school are very white, but like white in an aggressive way, like in an old southern money type of way, confederate monuments everywhere in the city, and on my campus, by the way, very scary. If you're a black person, it's not great. It's not ideal. And I just felt so visible. My granny used to say like “the only fly in the buttermilk,” if you will. And just always white people and I stuck out. And I didn't have a safe haven and neo soul gave me that like, it gave me a space where I didn't stick out because blackness was celebrated, and it was the norm. And I was like, “You know what, once I get my freedom papers from this alabaster Confederate prison that I've been in for four years. I am going to the blackity Blackest is a place that would accept my application for graduate school.” And it was Philly.
Josh Gwynn: So what did you think was gonna happen when you went to Philly Tracy?
Tracy Clayton: So what I knew was gonna happen was I was going to get mad ankh tattoos. Leave me alone. Leave me alone, Josh. I was gonna meet the Roots. You know, just hanging out on South street one day, we gonna become best friends, they would hit me up to come and get in the studio for a lil' private jam session. And then they were gonna do "You got me" and I would have to sub in for Eryka's part because she was probably off being amazing somewhere.
[CLIP of “You Got Me” by The Roots}
Josh Gwynn: I love this. What else did you think was gonna happen?
Tracy Clayton: Um, well, obviously I was gonna get up with my girl Jill Scott, you know maybe take a long walk.
[CLIP of “A Long Walk” by Jill Scott]
Tracy Clayton: You get it, you see what I did there?
Josh Gwynn: I love the fact that everyone just uses that or we could just be silent on the internet.
Tracy Clayton: It's just such a good idea all the time. It's always an option.
Josh Gwynn: What else was in this Philly fantasy?
Tracy Clayton: Ooh fantasy spelt P-H-A-N-T.
Josh Gwynn: Exactly.
Tracy Clayton: You got me. I was also going to see Amel Larrieux hit like notes that should not be accessible to humans in a coffee shop somewhere you know, my hair would be all wrapped up. I'd have way too much cocoa butter so I'm slipping and sliding everywhere.
[CLIP of Amel Larrieux’s “For Real”]
Tracy Clayton: And everybody would just be like, “Look at that queen. She's just um um,
Josh Gwynn: Yes-
Tracy Clayton: Just look, regal. And what's most importantly, I was going to fall in love with every man who had dreadlocks. Just like, I just wanted so many dreadlocks. I wanted them to look like Shazzah from a different world. I wanted them all to look like D'Angelo from that untitled video because that-that did something to me. Okay.
[CLIP of D’Angelo’s “Untitled”]
[Music Changes]
Tracy Clayton: And To be fair, like, it wasn't just D’Angelo and it wasn't just men who were singing about sex and intimacy and physical intimacy in this way that I could not hear on the radio, you know, but just the image of this very strong, well, muscled black man, clearly, well, what we thought was clearly singing about sex, but just the vulnerability that also goes into just like a naked, black man, that's just vilified in the media in the news, especially in here. Here's a black man who was not only--He wasn't holding it as far as we knew. But like, here's the black man who's body that we've been taught is like a dangerous weapon. It's now making us feel all kind of mixed up, bubbled up crazy things from inside and I was just like, you know what, why people might have been wrong about us.
[Music Ends]
Tracy Clayton: So you know, I've been called dramatic by a person or two in my day. But it is not exactly an exaggeration or hyperbole to say that I would have been like a completely different person had it not been for neo soul, because I found so many of the things that were important to me in that genre of music then and they like became parts of my current self, you know. Who would Josh be without Neo soul, I wonder.
Josh Gwynn: Completely different.
Tracy Clayton: Talk to me.
[Music Begins]
Josh Gwynn: I feel like a lot of the formative moments I had, involve Nielsen, like the first time that I ever won an album off the radio.
Tracy Clayton: The first time that you what? You won an album off the radio?
Josh Gwynn: Yo, this is such a sign of the times.
Tracy Clayton: Oh my gosh.
Josh Gwynn: I had to name five quote unquote, female MCs and I was like, “duh” Watermelon, Chicken and Grits, Tracy.
[CLIP of “Watermelon, Chicken & Grits” by Nappy Roots]
Tracy Clayton: Absolutely, also shout out to the Nappy Roots, who also deserve so much more respect on they name.
[Music Begins]
Josh Gwynn: I agree. So fast forward, the first concert that I ever went to where my parents let me go off by myself was at the House of Blues in Anaheim, right next to Disneyland in California. One thing I really loved about Neo Soul was like, because it was so specific in its blackness and so referential to our musical past. It was this inflection point where young people and old people like the same thing-
Tracy Clayton: That makes so much sense.
Josh Gwynn: Me and my mom, we both listened to the same Maxwell albums. We both listened to the same Floetry albums.
Tracy Clayton: Wow.
Josh Gwynn: So I remember telling my mom, I wanna to go see Floetry and she's like, "Okay, let's go"
[Clip of Floetry’s “Floetic”]
Josh Gwynn: And the way that the concert was set up, there was a general admission at the bottom and arranged tables at the top and you could see general admission from the top. And my mom was like, "I'm gonna go sit at the arranged tables", and I was like," I'm going to the general admission", and she was like, "Okay."
Tracy Clayton: Oh, wait how old were you?
Josh Gwynn: I was probably like, 12,13.
Tracy Clayton: This why I can't have kids. Oh my God, my 12 year old baby just running 'round in a concert.
Josh Gwynn: Well, she could see me the whole time from the balcony. I got my entire life. So some background for those of you who don't know, Floetry had two members, Natalie and Marsha and Natalie was the floecist, and Marsha was the songstress, and together with their powers combined, they were Floetry. And Natalie was directing the crowd, right? She was telling you like what to do with the music and the songs would play. And she would be like, Okay now dip, but like British. And my mom at the end of the concert was like, "all I saw was the sea full of people and everybody dipped at the same time, and I saw you and you dipped", and I was like, "he's gonna be fine.”
Tracy Clayton: Ah this is my favorite baby Josh story.
Josh Gwynn: So Neo soul happened when I wasn't quite in college yet, but it still meant a lot to me. And I think it's because I grew up in an era where Disney ruled everything. All the really big pop stars at that time had come from this big Disney machine, right? Think Britney Spears, Justin, Christina. And besides movies like the color of friendship, I don't know if you know that movie.
Tracy Clayton: I do not know that damn movie it sounds awful, I have to say, I'm just gonna say.
Josh Gwynn: It's okay. And like the Proud Family and Raven and Jett Jackson.
Tracy Clayton: R-I-P Jett.
Josh Gwynn: I know, R-I-P Jett Jackson. There wasn't a lot of representation of black folks on that channel, you know. And so for me, finally, finding neo soul was like this breath of fresh air, because it gave me all these super affirming messages about black folks, about blackness that were super identifiable that I was not getting at the time from what I was going through.
Tracy Clayton: Right, you mean that wasn't on the Disney channel?
Josh Gwynn: Not really.
[Music Ends]
Tracy Clayton: That is also what I love so much about it because like I just don't remember feeling as mirrored in my music like black or white as much as when I discovered Neo Soul.
Josh Gwynn: Right, right, Remember when India Arie dropped the Video video?
Tracy Clayton: I see what you did there. Absolutely that shit was revolutionary for me.
Josh Gwynn: I remember literally riding my bike down the street in my neighborhood with no hands on the handlebar because I was like, “I am also, as well not like the girls and also as well.” Not like the girls in the video.
Tracy Clayton: You just riding that street humming. (singing)
[CLIP of India Arie’s “Video”]
Josh Gwynn: Oh absolutely. Absolutely. I just remember it being a very counter cultural moment like I was getting these messages that went absolutely against what I was getting everywhere else. Blackness is beautiful. Your hair is beautiful. These aren't messages that I was getting.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah, and regular blackness is beautiful.
[CLIP of India Arie’s “Video”]
India Arie: Sometimes I’ll comb my hair and sometimes I won’t. Depending on how the wind blows, I might even paint my toes.
Josh Gwynn: The entire song is about how she doesn't fit the societal standard, right?
Tracy Clayton: Yeah. Anyone's. Black or white.
Josh Gwynn: Anyone's. Especially the external markers of beauty that we had at the time, like, think about what was happening in this time. Low rise jeans-
Tracy Clayton: Oh my gosh, the thongs.
Josh Gwynn: Thongs above the waistband.
Tracy Clayton: The thongs all the way up.
Josh Gwynn: Belly button rings.
Tracy Clayton: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: She wasn't that.
Tracy Clayton: And it's not that she was extra covered and conservative, you know? 'Cause she was out here in the little midriffs and the little one shoulder situations. She was just different and she's like, "That's fine."
Josh Gwynn: We had messages then about affirmation and about being pretty. Like, think about TLC's Unpretty.
[CLIP of TLC’s “Unpretty]
Josh Gwynn: But I think the reason that it hit more for me than Unpretty was that she was speaking directly to the community that she came from.
Tracy Clayton: Hands down. I felt the same way, like, I liked Unpretty. I sang it. I loved the album, it was on the radio all the time. But, the fact that white women could identify with it meant that there was something that song was not speaking directly to. You know what I mean?
Josh Gwynn: There's something so fundamental about that in neo soul music. If you were to ask me, "What is the key to the genre, Josh?" Like I would say-
Tracy Clayton: Right.
Josh Gwynn: Three things. One, in order to be successful within this genre, you have to be culturally fluent enough to understand references made to what old soul music used to be.
Tracy Clayton: Right, right.
Josh Gwynn: You have to be culturally fluent enough to understand where culture is at that point. Right now, right?
Tracy Clayton: Right.
Josh Gwynn: And then, you have to have this authentic swagger about yourself, like, it has to feel real and it has to feel organic.
Tracy Clayton: I'll cosign on that.
Josh Gwynn: Tracy, it reminds me of this one time I was watching TV and I saw this Coca-Cola campaign and it didn't look like any other Coca-Cola campaign I'd ever seen. It was called "New Classic Soul".
Tracy Clayton: I remember this.
Josh Gwynn: It was so dope.
Tracy Clayton: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: It had The Roots, it had Jaguar Wright, it had Fatima Robinson. It had Angie Stone, it had Amel Larrieux.
Tracy Clayton: I love. My faves.
[Clip]
Musiq Soul Child: Got to make it real. (singing)
Josh Gwynn: And as insider-y as neo soul felt, I remember it being like, "Wait, what? What is going on?" Because this is Coca-Cola like...
Tracy Clayton: Right.
Josh Gwynn: This is the pinnacle of mainstream so, what is happening here?
Tracy Clayton: Yeah. And for me, once I started to see that kind of representation in commercials 'cause I was like, "Okay this-I do like this, but I'm suspicious as to why you like it." And that's how I knew that like, first of all, like this neo soul movement was growing, you know? Like it wasn't a trend. White people have now seen that they can capitalize on it, which means there's enough of us participating in it, which means good for representation, terrible for being stolen from and pandered to.
Josh Gwynn: This was also when I realized how capitalism used blackness to sell things.
Tracy Clayton: Right.
Josh Gwynn: And I remember thinking distinctly when I was young like, when I used to see ads like that, "Who do these people think that I am? And what are they trying to use about my identity in order to sell me something?"
Tracy Clayton: Sell a scam.
Josh Gwynn: You know? Capitalism. A scam. But this ad felt different because it felt like it knew what it was doing and it did it really well. I think that was largely due to the black creators behind the scenes that lent it this feeling of authenticity.
Josh Gwynn: So guess what, Tracy?
Tracy Clayton: What?
Josh Gwynn: We're gonna talk to Perry Fair, inventor of the campaign, "New Classic Soul". The guy who made the ads after these ads.
[CLIP of Coca Cola Nu Classic Commercial]
[Break]
Josh Gwynn: So Trace.
Tracy Clayton: So Josh.
Josh Gwynn: Our producer, Alexis, tracked down Perry Fair.
Tracy Clayton: When I tell you that she is the new age Carmen Sandiego. Who can she not find? Whomst?
Josh Gwynn: Can't take. So Perry Fair is an ad executive and a creative. And he came up with the "New Classic Soul" campaign for Coca-Cola. And he talks about how the campaign was rooted in his real life experience as a fan of Neo Soul and a black person. A concept.
Tracy Clayton: Amazing. Groundbreaking.
[Music Begins, Fades]
Perry Fair: So, I was in South Dallas. Uh, one of my friends was like, "Look you gotta come to this club. It's crazy." I was like, "Okay." And there was a group performing on stage and they're like, "Yo, I'm a bring up my girl, Erykah Badu." And I'm like, "Oh shit, Erykah Badu's in the audience." And she gets up and the guy that singing gets on like lead guitar and then he plays and then they bring up somebody else and for the whole night they were bringing up their friends. And I'm like, "That was the most amazing experience ever. People should see this." And I was a fan of the music and the culture and the creativity, but also it was just these amazing, aquarius motherfuckers just creating this great sound.
Tracy Clayton: When you've this experience you talk about it in a way that lets you know you lived that experience.
Josh Gwynn: Right. And like you said like you said, there's this level of care, even to how they shot it, right? Like remember how well lit they were?
Tracy Clayton: Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: They matched the wardrobe and that matched the Coke bottles to the skin tones. There's so many times where I'm watching television and there's a black person that's on screen and I'm like, "Wow, so like, they really don't even care to light us properly." Like, you know what I mean?
Tracy Clayton: Right. Exactly. And if you don't care about the way I look, why do you care about what I say.
Josh Gwynn: Exactly.
Tracy Clayton: You know?
Josh Gwynn: Exactly. I think will all the details that we're picking up on, it makes sense that Perry worked at Burrell, which is a historically black ad agency. I think that they were uniquely situated to really think about this line. This fine line that you have to walk where you're like, "I'm speaking to my culture, but in a way that's not corny or selling out."
Perry Fair: I sat with, you know, The Roots and with Jaguar Wright and we literally made the songs. I was in the room when they were going to the studio and they would say like, "What do you think?" I'd be like, "What do you think? Would you feel proud of yourself if this was representative of who you are on broadcast, on television, or on YouTube, or you know, if your friends saw it, would they say like, ‘you sold out?’" And I was very adamant against that.
Tracy Clayton: I worry about being called a sell out all the time. Not by white folks because...But you know by my tribe, my people, my folks.
Josh Gwynn: Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
Tracy Clayton: You know, it just feels like a kiss of death. I just can't imagine what that must've feel like to be like, "Okay, there's this big white company that wants to sell to my people and my people and have been stolen from a lot but representation is important an it's gonna happen anyway-"
Josh Gwynn: Right.
Tracy Clayton: "So if it's gonna happen, I want to help it happen in the least hurtful sort of way."
Josh Gwynn: There are all these competing interests...And you're just trying to like navigate in the middle of it and reduce harm as much as you can-
Tracy Clayton: Exactly.
Josh Gwynn: While also trying to make sure that if you're gonna see a commercial that's targeted towards a black demographic at least let it feel real.
Tracy Clayton: At least.
Josh Gwynn: Like at least let it feel like we were involved in the construction of this and it's not just some hokey…
[Music Begins]
Tracy Clayton: Right.
Josh Gwynn: Thing where everyone's like, "We don't talk like that."
Tracy Clayton: I noticed like to have like a really good idea or a really good project or this thing that you wanna make and you know that it's like on point, top to bottom, but. It gets hairy when you have to...
Josh Gwynn: Translate it.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: When you have to explain and prove it's worth to people who don't share the same experience as you. And Perry talked about that as well.
Perry Fair: I brought in like articles from like Source magazine. I'm like, "Look, you gotta read this. Look, Ebony's talking about it and Essence. Everyone's talking about this one moment. You can be a part of this." And they're like, "Well, we don't really understand." I'm like if you don't believe me, I want you to come to a show. I need you to see it. And I flew to Atlanta and I took the client to like a Neo Soul club concert and they watched it and they were like, "Oh shit, this is amazing." And I looked around, I said, "Look at everyone in this room. This is who you're trying to talk to."
Josh Gwynn: When I think about people in this situation, my expectation isn't that they solve capitalism.
Tracy Clayton: It's a big task.
Josh Gwynn: Right? Capitalism is inherently going to be problematic to our existence as black people in America, you know what I mean?
Tracy Clayton: Yeah. Pretty much.
Josh Gwynn: But, I do think, on the other hand, that when you come into a situation like this, you should try to leave it better than when you found it.
Tracy Clayton: Can you imagine if everybody did that?
Josh Gwynn: I mean...
Tracy Clayton: What would the world look like?
Josh Gwynn: Ooh.
Tracy Clayton: What would my credit score look like? So much better. I don't wanna think about it. It's making me sad.
Josh Gwynn: And so I think that like, there's this really intense, internal negotiating that someone in this type of situation has to do where they're like, "Okay. They're gonna try to talk to this community. Can I make sure that it happens in the most respectable, positive, authentic way possible?"
[Music Fades]
Tracy Clayton: You know what? I feel like there's a version of my old self that probably did think that this commercial was kind of like selling out because it's like, "Why are my favorites filming Coca-Cola now?" You know what I mean? And the current version of me, after working in media and being in that position totally gets it. Just like, the reason that you just said. You know like, somebody's gonna do it. Change is always slow. Change is messy. People are gonna fuck up and make mistakes until things make sense in the world-
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Tracy Clayton: Until there's actual justice and equal representation. So I really appreciate being able to look back at this and being like, "Okay, we could have had something way worse." You know?
Josh Gwynn: Exactly.
Tracy Clayton: Mm.
Josh Gwynn: So this ad had no explanatory commas. You either got it or you didn't. An even though capitalism wrapped up in- within this experience of advertising, of receiving messages, there's something so intangible and so just innate that you could never, ever really bottle or share or explain or translate when you're receiving this commercial.
Perry Fair: No matter how much I try to explain to the people that don't look like me, my friends, clients, there will always be a genetic level that you will never be able to get to, you know? And we have always had to put on the mask and jacket of being able to live in the general culture. So we're masters at being able to understand a world that doesn't necessarily accept or we don't necessarily, fully understand but we've had to learn to play in it to survive.
[Music Fades, Changes]
[ 24:19 JILL SCOTT INTERVIEW]
Jill Scott: If you're an artist, and trust when I say this, that there's a difference between an artist and an entertainer. And sometimes an entertainer is an artist. Sometimes an artist is entertaining. Lady Gaga, I think is a- is a good example. Solange is a good example. She's an artist, but she's also quite entertaining.
Tracy Clayton: That is the one, the only, Jill Scott. Her art, her acting, her poems, her voice, it all contributed so much to neo soul.
Josh Gwynn: So we talked to her about what neo soul means to her, what it was like to be in Philadelphia at this time of black art renaissance and what she hopes the impact of her art has been to all of us.
Jill Scott: I would say, ultimately, you have to know what you are, you know? Are you an artist? Are you an entertainer? And then do the work. Be that guy, do the part.
Tracy Clayton: I'm very curious to know, how do you yourself personally define Neo Soul?
[Music Fades]
Jill Scott: I think it is a word that the industry created in order to revamp soul music because soul music is-it is rock. And it is rap, and it is gospel and it encompasses every genre of music the artist just has to be soulful. You know, you can tell me that Queen isn't soulful. You can't- you can't say that Hall and Oates isn't soulful or Kurt Cobain. So in order to compartmentalize what we do, they created neo soul.
Josh Gwynn: I don't know if that's how you would describe your music or your art, as neo soul. How did you feel about it when that label was put on what you were creating?
Jill Scott: I guess I thought it was like, "Oh, okay ... " You know? You know, what, what else do I do? I'm a writer first, so the fact that anybody would want to hear me sing, I was like, "For real? Okay. Oh, okay.” You know, I don't really care what boxes people will try to fit me in, I don't fit in them. So I don't, I don't really trip off of them.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: I know that you're from Philly and your roots are there and it helped shaped your ethos as an artist. I want to just talk about the creative eco-system that was happening in Philly like ...
Tracy Clayton: Yes.
Josh Gwynn:... during this, this neo soul movement. And all of these artists that were coming out and that it felt like as someone who was watching it, were in conversation with each other, their art was in conversation. I just wanted to be a part of it, you know, while watching it. What was that like?
Jill Scott: I really think the best movements are not something that you're even aware of. You're just living your life. We went to house parties and we wore the house gear and the big shoes for a while and all of a sudden there were places to read poetry. So, you know, something to do. You're in college, you know, $7 to get in. Like, "Okay, I can afford that." And it, you know, I went and I did that and that was cool. And I was like, "Hm, maybe I should read a poem. I want to read a poem." So I read a poem and they clapped, I said, "Hey, I like that." You know? "I'm going to ... "
Tracy Clayton: Come on positive reinforcements.
Jill Scott: Yeah, everybody needs that. So I said, “Ok, I'm gonna write some more" and I wrote some more and they clapped more. And I wrote some more and sometimes they'd cry and laugh and I say, "Yeah, this feels good." And then, other places started opening up jam sessions. And then you go there and then you create these friendships and then musicians got into the studios and they say, "Well, we need a writer." You know? And then all the poets were like, "Me, me, me, me." It wasn't anything that anybody planned, everything sparked another idea, "Oh, okay, let's create something that people will come to. Maybe we could make a little money as college students." An old friend, Leslie Pena and I, we created Words and Sounds,, a jam session and people came and Musiq Soulchild and Floetry and Kindred. And that's the Neo Soul movement I suppose in, in a nutshell.
Tracy Clayton: As you're naming all of my favorite, favorite acts, I think one of the things that I really, really, really got from it was the lesson that I could be any type of black woman I wanted to be. My Black Planet screen name back in the day ...shout out to Black Planet ...My Black Planet screen name was Honey Molasses.
Jill Scott: Oh, nice.
Josh Gwynn: Yes!
Jill Scott: Nice.
Tracy Clayton: And I'm all of 17 and I'm like, "I'm not sure why this feels good, but it feels good and it feels appropriate." And it felt like someone had told me a secret that nobody had told me before.
Jill Scott: Nice.
Tracy Clayton: Right? Because the costumes that I was trying to emulate, you know, behind those images come stereotypes. It just meant so much to me that I was like, "So wait a minute, you can like, wear head wraps and be earthy and do poetry and also talk about getting it in?" "That is, that's some new stuff for me." Did you have any push back to you expressing your sexuality?
Jill Scott: Yeah, later on. You know, they're like, "No, the lady from Why Did I Get Married?" "She's, she's talking about hands on the hip, pull me right back to you? What is saying?"
Tracy Clayton: "My gosh!"
Jill Scott: Every record that I've had has had some kind of, uh, sexual nuance from the very beginning. I was kind of surprised by later responses. I'm like, "Oh, it's because you don't listen to me."
Tracy Clayton: Aha ...
Jill Scott: "You don't know me. You know me as an actress", or "You know me as a poet." "You don't listen to my music. I love that about myself, that's one of my favorite parts of myself." I do think, as a writer, I say some of the most adult things I possibly could, but I articulate it in a way that is both intellectual and stimulating. It's not bass. So I don't know that I give a shit though.
Josh Gwynn: Yes.
Jill Scott: You know what I'm saying?
Tracy Clayton: Yes. I love it.
Josh Gwynn: Hey, that's why it was so weird to me too, because I was like, "Uh, have y'all not listened to her music?" Like ...
Tracy Clayton: Right.
Josh Gwynn: ... and that's why this Verses with Erykah was so nice because we got to like, sit in it. You know?
Tracy Clayton: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: And just celebrate it and the vibes were so good. What was that experience like for you?
Jill Scott: It felt like a reminder that we are still here, we have written and shared some, some really intense portions of our life, not just personal life, just life. We're journalists in that way, we express what's happening in the world. It just felt good, it felt good to smile and laugh and most importantly, to mean it.
Tracy Clayton: “To smile and to laugh and to mean it", that's that. Yeah.
Jill Scott: Yeah. That felt good, we had all been quarantined and you know, everything was new. And it felt good to sit in something that has always been there. You know, music.
Josh Gwynn: I heard that you're launching your own show? Uh, Jill the Podcast.
Jill Scott: J.ill The Podcast, yes.
Tracy Clayton: Ah, yeah!
Josh Gwynn: J.ill The Podcast. What have you learned from entering the podcast space?
Jill Scott: I don't know yet, I didn't do anything different. Like, I've been talking to Aja, Graydon-Dantzler and Laiya St.Claire about life, passion, failures, what pisses us off, what gets our blood flowing, when to walk away from relationships and raising children and wanting children. Like, we've been talking about life for over 20 years, together. So, when we get on our podcast, we're really just talking like we always have talked. Our conversations are pretty much the same but we're sharing it with everybody, which is a very scary thing.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah
Jill Scott: Yeah, because ...
Tracy Clayton: Can identify.
Jill Scott: ... man, man, man. But the, the goal is to spark conversation. We want people to talk about the things that are happening around them and we're giving resources, we want them to do a little homework. What's wrong with a little homework? You know, not just listening to me or Aja or Laiya, or any one person, you have to search out what you want to know. And then after that, honey, you gotta do it.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Tracy Clayton: Right. Right. It's the do-it part, the do-it part is the part, where I seem to get stuck a lot of times.
Jill Scott: We all do.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Tracy Clayton: Well, when you find yourself in that situation, what do you do? What do you tell yourself? Who do you confide in or look to?
Jill Scott: I stop. Like I, I don't, I don't like to beat myself up, which means that I'm not exactly disciplined. Because, I ...
Tracy Clayton: Zen.
Jill Scott: ... I don't like to beat myself up. I'm like, "Aw, you know, I love you, girl. Is you okay, baby?" "Here, have a bath."
Josh Gwynn: I love that.
Jill Scott: "Roll this up and enjoy this and read this book, honey. You'll be okay. Why, take a walk."
Josh Gwynn: A long walk.
Jill Scott: Yeah. That's really a major thing for me, like a long walk it calms me down, it inspires me. You know, if I walk through my neighborhood at night, which I really like to do because, you know, um, white folks, they love to leave their windows open and ...
Tracy Clayton: Oh my gosh, we talk about this all the time.
Josh Gwynn: All the time.
Tracy Clayton: If your curtains are open, I'm meddling.
Jill Scott: Yeah.
Tracy Clayton: Because you want me to know what's in there.
Jill Scott: Yeah, I want to, I want to know, too. And I might be that moment where somebody's putting dinner on the table or it might be that moment where somebody gets popped on the ass. You know, that's where inspiration comes from. I take hikes a lot, too. Just the nature of it all, watching the wind blow through the leaves, catching a deer being a damn deer. You know, just I believe in being obedient to your artistry. Some people pine over things and stress over things, I don't work that way. I'm obedient to it, when I feel the energy and it's like, "Okay, it's time to write", I have to hurry up. I've got to stop what I'm doing and get a pen and a paper because it's a happening, that's just the way I work. I need to be inspired. And if I'm not, then I have to do something else. What are you knocking on a door with nobody on the other side for?
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Jill Scott: You just gonna keep knocking on that same door?
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Jill Scott: You going to be outside for a long time, babe.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Jill Scott: Go, just go do something else.
Josh Gwynn: If there's one thing that you've learned on this journey that you're on right now what would it be?
Jill Scott: there's so many things, which is why ...
Josh Gwynn: For sure.
Jill Scott: I'm like, super grateful that I'm an Auntie now. Like, I've been waiting for this. I had been waiting for this age, I've been waiting for this point in my career where, yep, I've got 20 years in, babe. You know I've seen a lot of them come and go and do different things, but I'm still here.
Josh Gwynn: Yes.
Jill Scott: And enjoying it very much, and expanding. I would tell everybody, whatever kind of art you're into, if that is what you truly want to do, longevity is the goal. And you have to save some for yourself. It's tough when the first thing you do explodes. I guess it's like crack in a sense, because you're running around trying to get the same high ...
Tracy Clayton: Aw, man. Chasing that dragon.
Jill Scott: Yeah, but that thing is gone. It's already done, it's already created now you can do something else. And something else, and something else, and something else and something else. Longevity is really the goal. Look at Patti LaBelle, look at Gladys Knight. You know, look at Chaka Khan. There were a lot of artists that were out at the same time that they were, they were a lot of artists that beat them on the billboards you know, years ago as well. But they're still here and they're important to us, treasured to us. And, you know, one day I hope people will feel the same about me. That they'll listen to what I've sung or written or ... a movie or something that I was in that I put my guts into and say, "I appreciate that lady." You know? That would be nice.
Tracy Clayton: Absolutely.
Jill Scott: That would be very nice.
Tracy Clayton: Well, um, Miss Cleo I am not, but I have a feeling that not only will that happen, it's already happening for you.
Josh Gwynn: Spoiler alert.
Tracy Clayton: For I am, I just wanted to say thanks and thank you …
[Music Begins]
Josh Gwynn: Thank you.
Tracy Clayton:...for being alive and for sharing your talent with us and for coming on our show and chit-chatting. It means so, so much, seriously.
Jill Scott: Man, it's good to know that, that you exist. It's good.
Tracy Clayton: Aww.
Jill Scott: All this time pouring a lot of love, a lot of energy into music and writing to know that there are people who have listened and appreciated it and grown from it is really, really valuable to me. And I, I really appreciate that, thank you.
[38:28 End of Interview with Jill Scott]
[Music Fades, Changes]
Josh Gwynn: So Trace ...
Tracy Clayton: Mm-hmm (affirmative)?
Josh Gwynn: It's that part of the show where we take a page from Tyra Banks and see, did we ...
[CLIP]
Tyra Banks: Learn something from this!
Tracy Clayton: Um, oh I did, I did, pick me. Pick me.
Josh Gwynn: You.
Tracy Clayton: Me, me, me. Um, thank you. I learned that my time in Philadelphia was a lot more transformative. I don't know if that's I credit it with being that I just don't really think about my time in Philly a lot. I thought at the time that once you hit 24, 25, 26, that's who you're gonna be for the rest of your life. Right? So when I think about my formative years and formative times, all this stuff happened in Kentucky. But when I moved to Philly after I graduated, I had to like transition and get used to being in a space where I did not have to supplement my blackness in the same way as I did at home, you know what I mean?
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Tracy Clayton: And it just became like a different experience. Like I learned how to just relax into my blackness, if that makes sense. Like I didn't have to wear the RBG wristbands and the African hellicaust t-shirt, which I wore.
Josh Gwynn: Yes.
Tracy Clayton: Google that t-shirt, youngens, if you've never seen it.
It's a very aggressive t-shirt. That's why I went to therapy for the first time, you know what I mean? And this is where um, hundreds of miles away from my family for the first time. I can now see that the fact that I did not have to focus so much on race and blackness because I was in the black ass city that I was in, it gave me so much more energy. And I was at Transy, everyday I wake up and I'm just like, "All right, what am I gonna deal with today?" And then once I got to Philly it was like that part of my brain that was in charge of that part of my experience, it was just kind of like, " All right, so, uh, got my top of my hands now." Uh, now what do we worry about? Oh, I know, being a laugh, how do we do it?
Josh Gwynn: Right. Right, right, right.
Tracy Clayton: I mean, I s- I speak very hyp- hyper-
Josh Gwynn: Hyperbolically?
Tracy Clayton: Okay. I speak very that word-ish about my mental health journey, but honestly like it's a luxury to be able to just focus on that and not have to think about race at all. You know? And what is it 'cause I'm about to say, but talking to Jill Scott made me realize how important my time in Philly was.
Josh Gwynn: Ooh.
Tracy Clayton: You know? It reminded me that that was a big deal.
Josh Gwynn: Mmm.
Tracy Clayton: It was a really, really big fricking deal that I was where I was when I was there. And speaking of Jill- another thing that I learned is that uh, so you remember at the end of the interview when she was talking about self care and how she has to just like talk gently to herself, like, "No, no, honey. I'm not gonna do this today."
Josh Gwynn: Yo, her positive self talk game is on a thousand.
Tracy Clayton: Do you know what I realized that made me so happy that I did not say it at that point 'cause I didn't want to interrupt the beauty of it?
Josh Gwynn: What?
Tracy Clayton: I do the same thing now.
Josh Gwynn: Really?
Tracy Clayton: I was like, "Oh my God." I've talked to myself like I'm talking to a baby sometimes. Like, down to the pet names, like, "Oh, you know, what's up? It's okay, babe, it's okay, honey, you can do it again tomorrow." And I don't know if I noticed it before I heard her do it. And then I was just like, "Am I on some Jill Scott level of self care shit?"
Josh Gwynn: I love that.
Tracy Clayton: And that just made me so, so happy. Give it up to Jill. Amens.
Josh Gwynn: One other thing that I think became vibrant to me, like while we were talking Jill Scott and to Perry, to be honest, was about what it means to show up as yourself. Especially in work places, especially in white spaces, you know?
Tracy Clayton: Ooh, yes.
Josh Gwynn: I think that that was one of the reasons why the Neo Soul movement was such a revelation for me because it felt to insidery and it felt like such a community and you had all these people coming down to Philly with all these dope, different ways of expressing their ideas and how they saw the world.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: And they showed up in these record companies, which you know, are traditionally white spaces. Where white executives make money off of black thought.
Tracy Clayton: And they own everything. You can't own a master or have anything.
Josh Gwynn: Exactly. Especially back in those days. So it made me feel really good to hear Jill's journey and her outlook and how she maintained her mental health and her artistry. And I think it made me even more thankful for the space. It made me really, really, really appreciate that we have this space where we can come and we can talk about formative moments that people might not even remember. But how they affected our growth and led us to where we are, and that feels really precious at the time right now.
Tracy Clayton: Uh-huh. Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: Especially with everything going on outside. So it's kind of really weird that we're at the end of the season. Like that is crazy to me.
Tracy Clayton: I know.
Josh Gwynn: So when I think of... learn something from this. When I think of what I learn from the whole experience of season one, I think about how important and how useful nostalgia can be.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: Especially when times are rough.
Tracy Clayton: Oh my gosh, this is so meta. The thing that we're trying to do for other people happened to us.
Josh Gwynn: We did it, Tracy. We did it.
Tracy Clayton: Oh my god.
Josh Gwynn: Nostalgia.
Tracy Clayton: We did it now. We can go sit down. We can plan season two.
Josh Gwynn: Ah, can't wait.
Tracy Clayton: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Josh Gwynn: What? What? What?
Tracy Clayton: Wait, wait. I also want to thank God, my mom, and Jesus for this award, without y'all, I would never had made it. Never would've made it.
Josh Gwynn: And I want to thank our team.
Tracy Clayton: I thought we was gonna do that in the credit scene.
Josh Gwynn: Okay, okay.
Tracy Clayton: Now I look like the jerk for not thanking the team.
Josh Gwynn: Should we get to the credits?
Tracy Clayton: I think we should.
[Music Begins]
[Credits]
Tracy Clayton: Back Issue is a production of Pineapple Street Studios.
Josh Gwynn: This show was created and is hosted by Tracy Clayton.
Tracy Clayton: And Josh Gwynn. Our lead producers are Josh Gwynn and Emmanuel Hapsis, who has possibly the best fashion sense.
Josh Gwynn: The best t-shirts.
Tracy Clayton: I’ve witnessed.
Josh Gwynn: The best t-shirt.
Tracy Clayton: Ah, absolutely. In some witchy and good ways.
Josh Gwynn: Our managing producer is John Asante who ugh, what a saint.
Tracy Clayton: Who let us mispronounce his name for seven years.
Josh Gwynn: For seven years.
Tracy Clayton: 'Cause he's just so kind and so nice.
Josh Gwynn: He's so kind and so giving.
Tracy Clayton: Our senior editor is Leila Day whose voice sounds like a freshly carved woodwind instrument and it just makes me so happy.
Josh Gwynn: Okay, okay.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah. Poetry.
Josh Gwynn: Our associate producers are Alexis Moore and Xandra Ellin who, they are on top of everything all the time. They work so hard.
Tracy Clayton: All the ideas.
Josh Gwynn: So many ideas.
Tracy Clayton: Also, Alexis is not on Twitter, which I think is such a flex.
Josh Gwynn: Oh, the mysterious Alexis Moore.
Tracy Clayton: Flex. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Our intern is Briana Garrett, who is hilarious and always has the best Zoom reactions.
Josh Gwynn: Yes.
Tracy Clayton: It's just, I don't know how to explain it, you just have to experience it.
Josh Gwynn: Ah, (laughs) she just did it. I love it.
Tracy Clayton: Special thanks to Gabrielle Young. Ah, I mean, honestly I covet Gabrielle's job. So I'm a little envious but I do appreciate it. I love somebody who loves transcriptions, child. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky, who never failed to surprise me with the amount of me that they would put in work-so I figured that between me and you, that’s a lot.
Josh Gwynn: Oh, you know a lot.
Tracy Clayton: This show features music by Don Will who will literally make you the best version of whatever you need if you will just give him some money. This man has been in the music game forever. He is now my go-to when I need a diss check, so I can diss whales, you know what I'm saying? Working on it. You can follow him on Twitter @Donwill. Just Donwill, not DJDonwill, we don't flub him. On the socials. You can follow me Tracy @brokeymcpoverty and Tracy, you know what I'm saying, she's cool, she has her moments. She's a little annoying, grumpy often times. But, you know, go check out, see what she got there.
Josh Gwynn: And me, Josh @RegardingJosh. Subscribe to this podcast wherever free podcasts are sold.
Tracy Clayton: You didn't say anything nice about RegardingJosh.
Josh Gwynn: Ugh. Okay, um… he tries really hard and hhe cares a lot.
Tracy Clayton: Well he cares, I know you don't care too much. (singing) Also, thank you to our listeners who rocked with us for the first season.
Josh Gwynn: Oh my God.
Tracy Clayton: If y'all weren't here then we just be screaming in closets, literally, so...
Josh Gwynn: I mean, it's a Thursday.
Tracy Clayton: What's that gonna do? On a Thursday and a pandemonium.
Josh Gwynn: But, but scream in a closet. Subscribe to this podcast wherever free podcasts are sold. Tell your friend, tell your enemy.
Tracy Clayton: Tell the mailman.
Josh Gwynn: Go tell him on the mountain.
Tracy Clayton: Hey now. Find you a healer, everywhere.
Josh Gwynn: Tracy.
[Music Ends]
Tracy Clayton: Yeah. I still haven't had a hairdresser, I lied, I lied.
Josh Gwynn: It was all a fraud. It was all a lie.
ENDS [48:16]