BACK ISSUE
THAT TIME IT WASN’T RIGHT OR OK
This week, Josh and Tracy put together a mixtape of love to unpack Whitney Houston’s career and legacy, from her gospel beginnings and becoming America’s princess to that infamous Wendy Williams interview and Being Bobby Brown. What can Whitney’s life teach us about the tension between mental health and success? And how can we learn from what she went through to do better? P.S. If any of your relatives were in the Soul Train Awards audience that booed our Queen of the Night, have them call us on our Back Issue hotline: (678) 74ISSUE. We’d like a word.
Episode Transcription
[00:00]
Speaker 1: Hi, my name is Jennifer.
Speaker 2: Hi, my name is Briana.
Speaker 3: Hi, my name is Milton Garrett II.
Speaker 4: My name is Alexandra.
Speaker 2: And my favorite song by Whitney Houston is “I Have Nothing”.
Speaker 1: My favorite song by Whitney Houston is “I Will Always Love You”.
Speaker 3: And my favorite Whitney Houston song is “I Will Always Love You”
Speaker 4: My favorite Whitney Houston song is “The Greatest Love of All”.
Speaker 4: (Singing).
Speaker 3: (Singing).
Speaker 1: (Singing).
Speaker 2: (Singing).
Speaker 1: (Singing).
Speaker 4: (Singing).
[01:03]
[CLIP] Voice: Beyonce? You look like Luther Vandross.
[CLIP] Voice: Ho, but make it fashion.
[CLIP] Voice: But you ain't heard that from me.
[CLIP] Voice: Fierce
[CLIP] Voice: Call ‘em
[CLIP] Voice: You see, when you do clownery--
[CLIP] Voice: ‘Cuz we won’t stop.
[CLIP] Voice: Can’t get no sleep ‘cuz of y’all--
[CLIP] Voice: the clown comes back to bite.
[CLIP] Voice: Y’all not gonna get no sleep cause of me.
[CLIP] Voice: It's Britney, bitch.
[CLIP] Voice: [Voices overlapping] We were rooting for you, Tiffany. We were all rooting for you… [overlapping voices crescendo]
[CLIP] Voice: Who said that?
[Intro music starts]
Josh: Welcome to Back Issue.
Tracy: A weekly podcast that revisits formative things, people, and moments that we miss and that changed us.
Josh: This week, don't call me Susan.
Tracy: Okay.
Josh: We're going to talk about Whitney Houston.
Tracy: (Screams).
Josh: (Laughs).
Tracy: (Laughs).
[Music fades into media clips]
[01:53]
[CLIP] Whitney: I am Whitney Houston.
[CLIP] Voice 1: Whitney Houston.
[CLIP] Voice 2: Whitney coming in there strong.
[CLIP] Voice 3: Whitney Houston, ladies and gentlemen.
[CLIP] Whitney: Now, you know I don't lip sync.
[CLIP] Whitney: But wow, what a moment. I will never forget.
[CLIP] Whitney: Success doesn't change you. Fame does.
Tracy: Each week we'll go back into the past and revisit unforgettable moments we all think we remember.
Josh: And learn what they can teach us about where we are now.
Tracy: My name is also not Susan, because it's Tracy Clayton.
Josh: And I’m Josh Gwynn. and i'm just over here trying to exhale y’all.
Tracy: Ugh, waiting for the moment, would you say?
Josh: Shoop, shoop.
Tracy: (Laughs).
[Music ends]
Josh: So Trace.
Tracy: So Josh.
Josh: (Laughs). You know I love a really good ballad.
Tracy: Mm. Yes.
Josh: It depends on who's singing it though.
Tracy: Absolutely. Absolutely. You need the right person, like, Marvin Gaye perhaps? Maybe a little Luther Vandross?
Josh: A little Aneedle.
Tracy: A little who? Aneedle? (Laughs).
Josh: (Laughs). I always thought that that was the lyric to the song. (Singing). Who you think we're going to talk about today?
Tracy: I feel like it has to be one of the classic VH1 divas.
Josh: Okay.
Tracy: Which it means it has to be either Whitney, or Aretha, or Celine, or Mariah, or Treach from Naughty by Nature.
Josh: (Laugh).
Tracy: He was at the '99 Divas Live so he counts.
Josh: (Laughs).
Tracy: (Giggles) Treach is a VH1 diva.
Josh: Oh my god.
Tracy: Is it Whitney? Just tell me it's Whitney.
Josh: It's Whitney Houston. It's Whitney Houston.
Tracy: Yay!
Josh: Whitney Thee Houston.
Tracy: I also would have been excited to talk about Treach, probably.
Josh: (Laughs).
Tracy: But I'm more excited to talk about (giggles) Whitney Houston, because I love her.
Josh: Mm.
[CLIP] Whitney: (singing) If I -
Tracy: I mean, who else could it possibly be, I can't think of anyone who had the impact that Whitney had.
[CLIP] Whitney: (singing) Should Stay -
Tracy: She's in a league all of her own.
[CLIP] Whitney: (singing) I would only be in -
Tracy: And to unpack her legacy we really got to take like a comprehensive look at her entire life, right?
Josh: Right.
[CLIP] Whitney: (singing) Your way -
Tracy: First of all, as we all know, she was a remarkable, unreal talent, like -
Josh: The talent.
[CLIP] Whitney: (singing) So I’ll go -
Josh: And at the same time, she had this carefully constructed, curated public image.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
[CLIP] Whitney: (singing) But I know -
Josh: And she really epitomizes this fundamental tension between humanity and authenticity,
[CLIP] Whitney: (singing) I’ll think of you -
Josh: So I think analyzing both her voice, and her persona, are going to be really crucial if we want to understand her legacy.
[CLIP] Whitney: (singing) The wayyyyy -
Tracy: Right. And I mean, of course we cannot possibly cover everything here. It would take many, many hours to document the complete history of Whitney Houston and we are both in very small, hot closets on separate coasts.
Josh: (Laughs).
Tracy: And we wouldn't survive it. We wouldn't survive it. (Laughs).
Josh: So, think of this show more of like a compilation of favorite moments, or, uh, memories that stick out to us like a mixtape of sorts.
Tracy: A mixtape of love.
Josh: (Laughs).
Tracy: That's my Barry White voice everybody.
Josh: That was good.
Tracy: Hey baby. Was it? Don't lie to me.
Josh: I liked it. I liked it, friend.
Tracy: Yay!
Josh: (Laughs).
Tracy: (Laughs).
[05:10]
Josh: So if this is going to be the mixtape, let's call this part track one - “Your Love is My Love”.
[CLIP] Whitney Houston singing “My Love is Your Love”
[Song fades into instrumental music]
Tracy: I think that maybe a good place to start is by just talking through who Whitney is and was and will always be to each of us.
Josh: Yeah, I think she's like one of the ones for us. Like...
Tracy: Yeah. I feel like she was-
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: ... both of our first favorite singers. Is that right?
Josh: Oh, by far my first favorite singer.
Tracy: Oh my gosh. I remember, child, watching the “Greatest Love of All'' video at my Aunt Pauline's house...
Josh: Mm.
Tracy: ... because she had cable and we did not.
Josh: (Laughs).
Tracy: and this is like back in the '80s. I know this because I was wearing a Mary Lou Retton sweatsuit, right?
Josh: Come on.
Tracy: Mary Lou Retton... Right? Why do I... You know I can't remember nothing, but I remember that.
Josh: (Laughs).
Tracy: (Laughs). Mary Lou Retton, for those who are listening and don't know, she was a gymnast, amazing at what she did.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: This is like one of my earliest memories, is watching this video at my Aunt Pauline's house.
Tracy: I used to want to be a singer when I was younger. I would write down her lyrics and try to sing them, and I would fail but I would still keep trying. Like, she was just - she was always present in my life until she passed, I think.
Josh: I don't think you're alone either. I remember begging my mom and dad to let me watch The Bodyguard. And I was what, four? Had no business watching an R-rated movie.
Tracy: (Giggles).
Josh: And I remember just like begging my mom like, "I have to see this movie." And her looking at me like, and realizing it was rated R and, but seeing Whitney and being like, "I mean, I'm- it's Whitney. So I'm not going to say no."
Tracy: (Laughs).
Josh: (Laughs).
Tracy: So impactful and--
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: --you're right, like you and I are not alone because since the very beginning, she became America's princess, right?
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: And we're going to get into how all that happened, and how she built and cultivated her public persona. But first, can we please, pretty, pretty please, explain to me like I am two, her voice.
Josh: Ugh!
Tracy: Oh my gosh! How?
Josh: Ugh!
Tracy: How Sway?
Josh: It's like a voice that defies logic, right? It's full--
[CLIP] Whitney: (Singing).
Josh: --it's soulful--
[CLIP] Whitney: (Singing).
Josh: --it's gospel--
Tracy: It's robust.
Josh: --but it's also, it's robust but it's versatile. She could sing anything that she wanted to.
Tracy: Any genre. Yes.
[CLIP] Whitney: If you can sing, you can sing, and you can sing pop, you can sing gospel, you can sing R&B, whatever it is. You can sing Yankee Doodle Dandy.
Josh: Which is why I always ask the question, why would you ever in your life dare to cover a Whitney Houston song? Whenever we go to the karaoke and somebody pulls up a Whitney Houston song, I'm like, "Do you have a death wish?"
Tracy: (Laughs).
Josh: Why would you do that yourself?
Tracy: These are people who need extreme situations just to feel something I think. You should not try to do that unless you're okay with going viral like that one little girl--
Josh: (Laughs).
Tracy: --who was in front of her computer trying to sing I Will Always Love You. She got so frustrated.
[CLIP] Little girl: (Singing). Oh, fuck!
Tracy: (Laughs).
Josh: (Laughs). I feel like when someone does a cover, right, they're supposed to try to make it their own--
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: --put their own spin on it. Whenever I watch someone do a cover of Whitney Houston--
Tracy: Uh-huh (affirmative).
Josh: --I feel like I'm on Tik Tok, and I feel like I'm watching people do these dances. And it's like, "Yeah, you're hitting each move, but..."
Tracy: Where's the seasoning?
Josh: Literally no seasoning.
Tracy: Yeah. Yes.
Josh: (Laughs). You're just showing me that you're a technician, but you're not an artist.
Tracy: Exactly. Exactly.
Josh: It doesn't go the opposite way, because Whitney Houston--
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: --could take a song and make it hers.
Tracy: When I found out that The Star-Spangled Banner was a cover--
Josh: (Laughs).
[CLIP] Whitney singing “The Star Bangled Banner”
Tracy: --I was like, "What? She did not write this herself?"
Josh: Honestly, the only time I've ever stood up for it.
[CLIP] Whitney singing “The Star Bangled Banner”
Josh: Whitney Houston has this ability where she's able to just sing a song, and you and your body and mind and spirit just know that this song has never been sung before. Like, (giggles) you know what I mean? And it is hers.
Tracy: Yes.
Josh: In fact, there's a lot of classics of Whitney Houston's that I did not know were covers.
Tracy: I feel like this is going to upset me. (Laughs).
[Music starts and plays under]
Josh: (Laughs). So okay, we all know I Will Always Love You--
Tracy: Right.
Josh: --Dolly Parton song. Duh.
Tracy: Yeah. Accepted that.
Josh: I'm Every Woman, Chaka Khan song. Chaka Khan. Chaka Khan. Chaka Khan.
Tracy: Let me rock it.
Josh: (Laughs).
Tracy: (Laughs).
Josh: So you know the song Saving All My Love, right?
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). (Singing).
Josh: But did you know it was a cover?
Tracy: What? No.
[CLIP] Marilyn McCoo singing “Saving All my Love For You”
Josh: I mean, it's passable. It's great. The song was originally a minor hit for Marilyn McCoo and Billy Davis Jr. in 1978. But then, Whitney Houston got her hands on it and she turned it into this huge hit in 1985. As a singer-songwriter, whatever, someone who creates music, and you're like, "Oh, it's done." And then Whitney Houston hears it, you hear her version, do you just quit?
Tracy: Yes.
Josh: Or do you... Are you just like-
Tracy: You sit down.
Josh: (Laughs).
Tracy: You find another job, I think is what you have to do.
[CLIP] Whitney singing “Saving All my Love For You”
Tracy: Whitney brought that Lawry’s to it, man.
Josh: Okay.
Tracy: Oh my gosh.
Josh: She just made it her own. And she wouldn't have been able to do that without the gift that she was given, the talent that she was given.
[Music playing under]
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: And I don't think that it's really hyperbolic to say that her voice was a national treasure.
Tracy: Absolutely not. This makes me wonder, who could possibly carry this torch, right? Like, who is the next version of a power singer like this? I don't know that they exist because the kids these days... And look, I'm not trying to step on nobody toes.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: I love me some Jhené Aiko. I love me some Tinashe, but them little whispery girls--
Josh: (Laughs).
Tracy: That's not who we turn to.
Josh: That's not this.
Tracy: That is not this.
Josh: That's not this.
Tracy: This is not that.
Josh: You had this like template of black soul singers that came from church--
Tracy: Right.
Josh: --that--
Tracy: That's the key.
Josh: --got their training in... Exactly, they got their training in church. In order to sing in church, you have to be able to sing in front of a choir.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: And there's just a stylistic prowess that you get from being around people that grew up in the genre. And because of the secularization of America, I don't know whether the church is such a prerequisite like it used to be to being an R&B singer, you know?
Tracy: Yeah, I don't know who I listen to all is into it, I'm just like you sound like you grew up in church. Jennifer Hudson?
Josh: Jennifer Hudson sounds like that.
Tracy: Clearly Yeah. But it's also like a matter of who has the same crossover appeal that Whitney had, from the very jump, as soon as the gates opened. Her talent was recognized by people of different ages, different races, different genders.
Josh: Yeah, I think, especially for black artists, what happens is you find your fan base within urban music, or R&B.
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: Or rap, whatever it is.
Tracy: Start among your people.
Josh: And then you get bigger and then you crossover. They want you to crossover to white people and white audiences markets.
Tracy: And it usually takes a lot of effort.
Josh: A lot of effort! But, Whitney had this like backward trajectory in terms of that because she was pitched as one of Clive Davis' "Grand Divas". She was out there in ball gowns, she was singing huge ballads.
Tracy: Exceptionally beautiful.
Josh: She was singing these songs that were universal and I think to the audiences at the time, lacking in the cultural references that they were used to hearing from their black artists.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Yeah, she was not a definitively black artist.
Josh: Right right.
Tracy: Like sonically.
Josh: And I think that's what happened at the Soul Train Awards--
Tracy: Oh my gosh.
Josh: --where she won an award for “I Want To Dance With Somebody” and everyone booed her.
[CLIP] Audio / Whitney: (Crowd noises) Male: Whitney Houston, I want to dance with somebody.
Tracy: The nerve!
Josh: Like, I can’t.
Tracy: Absolutely. I think that's the moment where she was like, wait. I've got to get in front of this because I'm not about to have my people booing me and not understanding me.
Josh: Doreen St. Felix, who’s a writer for the New Yorker, talked about this moment with the Soul Train Awards when they booed her. And She said Houston was not, at least not initially, an R&B singer. In fact, she was aggressively pitched as the opposite.
Tracy: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Josh: So Doreen points to this Time profile from July of 1987 titled, "The Prom Queen of Soul," and it describes Whitney Houston’s face, her sleek figure, her supernova smile as a "Cosby kid made in heaven."
Tracy: Mmmm.
Josh: Right. That's a very specific type of blackness that we're talking about.
Tracy: It absolutely is.
Josh: Right?
Tracy: Unattainable blackness, one might even say.
Josh: But I will say this, Tracy. It was spot on because did you know that Whitney was supposed to play the role of Sandra on the Cosby Show?
Tracy: Nuh-uh! Really?
Josh: Yeah. Jay Sandrich, who’s one of the directors of the show said Whitney had a very clear vision for what she wanted with her future, and it didn’t involve showing up on set every week.
Tracy: Mmm (affirmative), you know what? I feel that as somebody who has had a job (laughs).
Josh: (Laughs)
Tracy: It’s not always what you want.
[CLIP] Jay Sandrich: She said, “I can’t be in every show.” I said “why not?” She said “well I have to be able to tour.” I said, “do you have a record contract?” “No.” “Have you ever toured?” “No.” And I said, “well, who told you you could sing?” And she said, “my mother, my aunt.” And I said, “well you can’t do shows and sign a contract because it’s not a [inaudible].” Whitney Houston.
Tracy: Talk about manifesting what you want!
Josh: She said “my mom told me I can sing and so did my aunt, so…”
Tracy: Right, you calling my momma a liar?
Josh: I won’t be doing your show (laughs).
Tracy: Right (laughs). Good luck! I hope it becomes something.
Josh: Right.
Tracy: ‘Cuz I know I will.
Josh: Exactly!
Tracy: I’ve just never been that sure of anything in my life, ever.
Josh: Right?
Tracy: Like I’m gonna pass up this amazing opportunity for this thing that may or may not happen, but it’s definitely going to.
Josh: Okay? ‘Cuz I FEEL it.
Tracy: Right! Ugh.
Josh: They’re circling around this specific type of blackness that Houston represented in the zeitgeist at that time, right? The Time magazine piece calls it a quote "overdue vindication of the neglected American institution: the Black middle class."
Tracy: Mmmmm.
Josh: So, Doreen goes on to talk about how when she was booed at the Soul Train Awards, being someone who grew up in Newark, who grew up in the Black church, this was like an existential blow.
Tracy: Mmmm. I can't imagine what that must have felt like for her.
Josh: To not be taken seriously by the people that she wanted to be taken seriously by the most.
Tracy: I want the name and address of every single person who was there who had the nerve and the gall and the audacity to boo Whitney Elizabeth Houston. Some of ya'lls mommas and daddies was there.
Josh: You know!
Tracy: Send me their names.
Josh: (singing) History has it eyes.
Tracy: (laughter) It's looking for you.
Josh: I agree. I just think it was a pivotal moment and you can really see this sort of tension between perfection and humanity--
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: --Versus crossover and blackness. Just this tension pulling back and forth, and the ripples of it through the rest of her career I feel like.
Tracy: And it also shows a war between white people making money off of us...
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: And us trying to control who we are and our humanity, you know what I mean? I feel like this takes us to one of the most crucial turning points of her legacy, in my estimation.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: Would you like a hint?
Josh: Yes.
Tracy: It works for me.
Josh: It works?
Tracy: It works for me.
Josh:: It works?!
Tracy: It works.
Josh: It works for me, it works. Snaps.
Tracy: It works.
Josh: After the break.
[Robot voice saying “‘Cuz This is Back Issue”]
[16:35]
Josh: So we're back.
Tracy: Helllur.
Josh: Helllur.
Tracy: This brings us to our next track on our mixtape of love.
Josh: (laughs)
Tracy: Some Barry White voice, just in case you forgot. I want to talk about the disconnect between how she was pitched and the gowns, and being gospel royalty, and the pedigree and all of the pressure that that put on her when really, she was just a black girl from Jersey who had an extraordinary talent and just wanted to use it. Like she was always--
Josh: Wait, wait.
Tracy: What?
Josh: Mmm. I have the perfect title for the next track.
Tracy: What is it? What is it?
Josh: It's not right, but it's okay.
Tracy: I'm nominating you for an Emmy!
Josh: (laughs)
Tracy: I know that's not what Emmy's are for probably.
Josh: (laughs)
[CLIP] Whitney singing “It’s Not Right But It’s Okay”
Tracy: This is perfect! Cuz it’s This is not right.
Josh: It's not right. It's also not okay.
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: (laughs) But when we get to that tension that you're talking about, between how she was pitched as Gospel royalty and this pedigree, versus the humanity that she had. I think that there's one piece of media that I think of.
Tracy: What's that?
Josh: The Wendy Williams Whitney interview.
Tracy: Ohhhh Whitney, Whitney, Whitney!
[CLIP] Wendy W.: Ohhhhhhh Whitney, Whitney, Whitney!
Josh: Wendy, Wendy, Wendy!
[CLIP] Whitney H.: Ohhhhhhh Wendy, Wendy, Wendy!
Tracy: (laughs)
[CLIP] Whitney H.: Oh my Lord, have I waited for this day.
Wendy W.: Have you?
Whitney H.: Well yes, I have, haven't you?
Josh: (laughs) I think about this so much because this is right after the Diane Sawyer interview, right?
Tracy: Ohh, the crack is whack interview.
Josh: The crack is whack interview. And there's a lot happening with Whitney Houston in the tabloids at this moment.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Josh: And the ways that all of these publications are talking about her are very much opposed to this picture of her that we had in our heads.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Josh: And you can tell that she was just like a real person.
Tracy: She be one who slap people a lot, you could tell when she wanted to.
Josh: She was tired! She was annoyed. She was fed up.
Tracy: Fed up.
Josh: And she was ready to stick up for herself and remind you that she was from Newark.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Josh: So. Wendy actually asks her if she regretted the Diane Sawyer interview.
[CLIP] Wendy W.: Do you regret Diane Sawyer's interview?
Whitney H.: No, why should I?
Wendy W.: Well, it didn't exactly show you in the best light.
Whitney H.: You don't think so? Well, you know Wendy you don't show yourself in the best light and people still listen to you.
Wendy W.: When I'm not shown in the best light, I guess one of the best things that I love about my career is that there's always tomorrow to come back.
Whitney H.: You see, and what I love about my career is that my music speaks for itself.
Tracy: She was so quick.
Josh: She was so quick! (laughs)
Tracy: Wendy was ready for whatever Wendy was gonna throw at her. And Wendy was known, still is known, for being just mean and messy. And I remember, I don't know if I would go on the Wendy show today. You know what I mean?
Josh: (laughs)
Tracy: And I remember being like, "ohhhh." But I see why. She held her damn ground.
Josh: Right! At this point, it's Wendy on the radio, right? Like she's a professional talker, she's used to filling time. She's used to being quick on her feet and Whitney--
Tracy: She was with the shits.
Josh: She was.
Josh: She's used to being quick on her feet-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Josh: And Whitney-
Tracy: She was with the shits.
Josh: She was with the shits. Wendy actually asked her about her drug use.
Tracy: Oh, child.
[CLIP] Wendy W.: So, Whitney, as, as far as you stand with drug use, is there drug use going on at this present time?
Whitney H.: Who are you talking to?
Wendy W.: To you. Whitney. You.
Whitney H.: No, you're not talking to me. I'm a mother. Only my mother has privy to that information. You talk to your child about that. Don't ask me no question like I'm a child.
Wendy W.: And, and-
Whitney H.: Don't ask me like I'm a child, 'cause I'm not a child, Wendy.
Josh: You can hear this defensiveness. You can hear this territorial posture.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Josh: You can hear that she's just been fighting.
Tracy: You can hear anger.
Josh: Anger. Resentment.
Tracy: And we all know, like, what happens when a black woman gets angry in public.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Tracy: This is the extent to which she was fed up and then she didn't care. And the fact that she was just, like, no. I'm about to go beat Wendy's ass, I mean, I think it-
Josh: Okay.
Tracy: I just think it means so much.
Josh: It means so much and she kind of gets to that point within the interview. She kind of lays out her thesis for, I think how she was feeling at this moment.
[CLIP] Wendy W.: You're very defensive, Whitney.
Whitney H.: I have to be, Wendy. You talk about me every (beep) day.
Wendy W.: Well, Whitney-
Whitney H.: And every other day.
Wendy W.: Whitney, you, you keep yourself in the headlines.
Whitney H.: No, Wendy. Y'all keep me in the headlines. I mind my business. I try to maintain what I got. You wanna know what I'm doing all the time. I don't give a (beep) about what you doing all the time. As long as you healthy and got [inaudible 00:23:21] and you do the right thing and being a decent person, I can tell that.
Josh: We always have this idea that in order to be famous, one of the things that comes with fame is being consumed by an audience-
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: --In all different ways that you might not be comfortable with. But--
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Josh: What if you just want to sing and you're just, like, a really good singer, and she comes from the time when you were famous for a talent that you had.
Tracy: Exactly. Yeah.
Josh: Like, a tangible thing that you're good at. You can just hear the resentment that she has at having to deal with all this other stuff that goes along--
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Josh: --With singing.
Tracy: I would imagine it was especially frustrating to have a black woman always on dog at her too. Especially, like-
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: After what the Soul Train award shit did to her--
Josh: Right.
Tracy: --In the way that it made her feel. You know, just, like--
Josh: Absolutely.
Tracy: --This shit, again? Really?
Josh: Just digging and digging, and digging--
Tracy: Right.
Josh: --And digging. Like, I remember, there was a lot of speculation around her relationship with someone she worked with named Robyn Crawford.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Josh: Who has since wrote a book called “A Song For You: My Life With Whitney Houston”, and she talks about how they at one point had a romantic relationship.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Josh: And Wendy actually brings this up in the interview.
[CLIP] Wendy W.: When's the last time you talked to Robyn?
Whitney H.: 'Bout a week ago. Ha-ha.
Wendy W.: Because I know that you and Robyn were girlfriends from when you were growing up.
Whitney H.: And we're still friends. Girl.
Wendy W.: Okay. Um, e- e- will she was working back with you or is she still-
Whitney H.: Wendy, Wendy, Wendy, Wendy. Was Robyn doing anything? No, Robyn don't work for me and she don't work for me now. Moving right along.
Josh: Mmm.
Tracy: Well, I- j- wish she was here to give me lessons. (Laughs)
Josh: So, I told you that Robyn wrote that book about Whitney Houston, right?
Tracy: Right.
Josh: During her book promo she actually got the chance to go on Wendy Williams' show.
Tracy: I saw that.
Josh: And she confronts Wendy and tells her about how Whitney was feeling behind the scenes when this entire interview happened.
[CLIP] Robyn C.: I heard that interview. I got a call from my former assistant. I wasn't working with Whitney. She said Whitney is gonna be on Wendy Williams. Turn on the radio.
Wendy W.: Uh-oh.
Robyn C.: That was a cumulative, fed up Whitney Houston that I heard.
Josh: She was tired.
Tracy: She was tired. My favorite part of the interview is when Robyn says that her and Whitney at one point were, like, gonna hide and wait for-- (Laughs)
Josh: (Laughs)
Tracy: Wait for Wendy to come out and beat her ass, basically.
Josh: She was with it.
Tracy: With every single shit available.
Josh: Every single one available.
[CLIP] Robyn C.: We get in the car, the radio is on and you're like, you're talking like you live with us. Like, you're, you're roommates with us. Put me in the car, we'll be sitting still and Whitney would say, "Who the... who is she? Who is this woman? I don't even know what she looks like."
Wendy W.: Okay.
Robyn C.: Our plan was to go down to Hudson Street and squat like Khalif waiting for you... right outside [crosstalk 00:26:06]
Wendy W.: Robyn! I can't even fight.
[Music starts playing]
Tracy: So just as this interview kind of showed us, or at least showed me-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Tracy: The Whitney behind all the glitz and the glitter, and the gowns...
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Tracy: There's another thing that did it for me as well, and we're gonna discuss this with the next track on our mix tape which is Something In Common.
[23:50]
[CLIP] “Something in Common” by Whitney Houston and Bobby Brown plays
Josh: (singing) We got something in common.
Tracy: Those are the only words- I- I was gonna join in with you but-
Josh: (Laughs)
Tracy: That's all I know, is that they have something in common. Confession, it's my least favorite Whitney song.
Josh: Same. Me too.
Tracy: And it's not because of, like, Whitney and Bobby or nothing, it just wasn't a great song, you know? The thing that we're gonna talk about, ladies and germs, is Being Bobby Brown.
Josh: How does that theme song go again?
[CLIP] “Being Bobby Brown” Theme Song
Tracy: (singing) Being Bobby Brown!
Josh: (Laughs)
Tracy: This is a really uncomfortable time in my media diet history because I loved- I loved this fucking show.
Josh: Same.
Tracy: And I loved this show because I love ridiculous shit.
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: And this is so ridiculous.
Josh: It felt novel. It wasn't something that I'd ever seen before. I'd never seen someone who was like an A-list celebrity-
Tracy: Right.
Josh: -Superstar of the world doing reality television-
Tracy: Right.
Josh: -Where you could see this sort of intimate detail into their life. I had never seen it.
Tracy: Right and, like, she's not just doing reality television.
Josh: Yeah, what this show bounces around in my head is this tension that we’ve been talking about - between perfection and humanity. Even just within the relationship with her and Bobby, right?
Tracy: Yeah
Josh: She said it herself, she was like, "I was America's princess, then I married the bad boy."
Tracy: Exactly. And she was very intentional about it. I, I believe that they were in love-
Josh: Yeah, me too.
Tracy: --I don't think that she married him just to make a point or anything, but because she came to us as a crossover artist from the very beginning, like, white people were already into her. And then she marries Bobby and then they're like, “oh, she's that kinda black.” You know what I mean?
Josh: Mmm. (affirmative) So tell me about Being Bobby Brown. Let's get down to basics. Where does the show come from?
Tracy: I thought that you would never ask.
Josh: (Laughs)
[Music starts playing]
Tracy: Being Bobby Brown premiered June 30th 2005, and for the uninitiated, this is like your standard run of the mill reality TV show where there are cameras following Whitney and Bobby documentary-style over the course of doing normal things like camping, or, like, traveling from here to there. Shit like that. The show only lasted for one season--
Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Tracy: --And it ended because Whitney didn't want to do it anymore. And I think that that is completely fascinating.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Tracy: What was the moment where she was like, you know, this is too much?
Josh: (Laughs) Right.
Tracy: You know, what was the straw? What was it?
Josh: (Laughs)
Tracy: Was it a bad look for her career, a bad look for her? Was she getting tired of Bobby? What was the story?
Josh: But there's so many moments that came from that show.
Tracy: Seriously.
Josh: Do you remember Whitney yelling "kiss my ass"?
[CLIP] Whitney Houston: Kiss my ass!
Tracy: Oh my god, do I? (Laughs)
Josh: Kiss my ass!
Tracy: It's one of my favorites. So this is before Twitter, right?
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: Twitter and, like, internet memes. But still, this is a moment that was memed on shows like Talk Soup on E.
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: And I would love to get some context for this moment but honestly it was just Whitney and Bobby having this conversation about George Bush and being American, and then-
Josh: (Laughs)
Tracy: Sorry. Whitney's tired about talking about it, she's just like, "Kiss my ass!"
Josh: (Laughs)
Tracy: And so... What a comeback, you know?
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: So, I think I'm gonna start doing that whenever I don't want to continue conversation, I'm just gonna go-
[CLIP] Whitney Houston: Kiss my ass!
Josh: Like when I try to peer pressure you move to LA?
Tracy: Kiss my ass!
Josh: (Laughs)
Tracy: See? You see how that works?
Josh: Sparkly. I love that.
Tracy: Amazing, I love it. (Laughs) So anywho, as I was saying, there's all these really fun and funny hilarious moments and it's also, it's so dope to just, like, see Whitney break out into song. Because that's honestly, like, what I was waiting on.
Josh: That's my favorite part of the entire show.
Tracy: Oh my gosh, because I always think if I had a voice, if I had an instrument like that, I would sing every, you would get so tired of me.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Tracy: I'm singing the menu when we ordering out on Seamless. I'm singing all of my insults to you, like, everything. And it's so fun to see her just break out into songs that she likes and to discover what song that she likes.
Josh: Like when she was singing Fergie and the Black Eyed Peas.
[CLIP] Whitney H.: (singing) --the worst and I'm crazy, for trying to be your lady. I think I'm going crazy--
Tracy: Shut it up, just shut up, shut up. (Laughs)
Josh: (Laughs) Bobby's in the background doing the Harlem Shake. Oh my God.
Tracy: (Laughs) It was the laziest Harlem Shake in the world, by the way.
Josh: The laziest Harlem Shake. It was a Harlem Shimmy.
Tracy: Real- It was a Harlem Shimmy, and then of course, Josh, there's our favorite moment. Can you guess what that is?
Josh: It worked for me, it worked--
Tracy: Hey, hey. It worked for me, it worked.
Josh: (Laughs)
Tracy: Uh, uh.
[CLIP] Whitney H.: [crosstalk]
Bobby B.: It worked, it worked for me, it worked, it worked, it worked for me...
Josh: (Laughs) What was actually happening?
Tracy: Thank you for asking me because this is the kind of knowledge I carry around my head all day.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Tracy: And I've nothing to do with it.
Josh: (Laughs)
[Plucky music starts playing]
Tracy: So what happened was, they were traveling somewhere. They're in this hotel, right?
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Tracy: Bobby Brown is in a hotel gift shop and he's talking to the poor little confused lady who's running the register and he's got Preparation H, right?
Tracy: And he's rubbing it underneath his eyes.
Josh: Oh my God.
Tracy: (Laughs) H- he's- Yeah, I swear to God it happened.
Josh: This really happened?!
Tracy: I swear. There's evidence of it on the internet. So, he's putting Preparation H under his eyes and he's talking to this woman. He's just like, "I need Preparation H. I don't need it for my butt though. I don't need it for my butt. I need it because I hear that it shrinks the bags under your eyes, and me and my wife were up late last night," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm just like, this weird. This is weird, Bobby. You don't have to tell this lady all of this and you don't have to put this down in the gift shop. Anyway-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Tracy: Whitney comes in, right? Bobby goes over to her to ask her something. He's like, "Baby, I need-" And Whitney just starts singing and repeating what he's saying.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Tracy: So she's like, "I need, I need, I- I- I need."
Josh: I would do that. (Laughs)
Tracy: I do that all the time.
Josh: Right, right.
Tracy: I was just like me and Whitney have something in common.
Josh: (singing) Something in common.
Tracy: You see what I did? Uh, uh. And so then, Whitney's like, "Yeah, we can do that but first," she tries on these glasses and she's like, "Do you like how these glasses look on me? Do they work for you? They work for me, they work, they work for me.”
Josh: Yeah, they do that dance that you doing whenever you're, like, '90s dancing It's, uh, it's such a moment.
Tracy: Yes, and they just- they just get stuck there for a second, and for a minute I was like, "This is why they're together. They are so in love."
Josh: They're very much in their own world.
Tracy: And of all of my catalog of random pop culture moments that pop into my head once a day, this is top two or three.
[Plucky music ends]
Tracy: So, there's lots of fun, funny moments like that that stick out in my head, but then there are moments from the show where there's like this undercurrent of kind of like, concern--
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: Like, is everything all right?
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: There's this one clip of Bobby and Whitney in a house or a hotel room, I can't really tell where it is--
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: But, at least Bobby's drunk, Whitney is like annoyed with Bobby being drunk--
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: --and he's walking around in his- (laughs) his shoe's stuck to his foot and he's just like, "Stop following me shoe. Stop following me shoe."
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: And Whitney gets annoyed but then it like ends up in the beginnings of a fight?
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
[CLIP] Bobby: Why's my shoe following me? Girl, I'm drunk.
Whitney: I told you that at the restaurant, you did not-
Bobby: (Laughs).
Whitney: That's not cute [inaudible] you got kids, man.
Bobby: I know I got kids.
Whitney: Well you don't act like it.
Bobby: Yes, I do.
Whitney: No, you don't.
Bobby: Now I ain't drunk. What you talking about my kids for? Yeah, you better close the (beep) door.
Josh: Mm.
Tracy: And I'm just like, "Oh, my god."
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: It's scary.
Josh: There have been so many accusations around domestic violence and-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So, it's just like, what happened once the cameras cut off? What happened when the cameras weren't even there, you know?
Josh: Bobby Brown was really big at one point, you know?
Tracy: He was huge, yes.
Josh: He was huge and--
Tracy: Post New Edition, oh my gosh.
Josh: But then, The Bodyguard just took off--
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: --and I really feel like that can really mess with the dynamics of a relationship.
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: There's this conversation that Whitney Houston and Oprah had,
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: --they have this conversation like a year or two before she dies.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: So, it's much later where she's able to have space from it and look back at the relationship that she had with Bobby and how she really felt like she needed to make him feel comfortable with her success and her light, even if it meant dimming her own.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And to not make him feel bad.
Josh: Yeah.
[CLIP] Oprah: Did you try to overcompensate?
Whitney: I tried to play down all the time--
Oprah: Yeah, yeah.
Whitney: I try to play, "I'm Mrs. Brown everybody. Don't call me Miss Houston, I'm Mrs. Brown.
Oprah: Did you start to lose yourself in that because, you know---
Whitney: Yeah.
Oprah: --trying to?
Whitney: Trying to please.
Oprah: Yeah, trying to please.
Whitney: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.
Oprah: And trying to not be so big.
Whitney: Yeah.
Oprah: Yeah.
Whitney: Sure did, yeah.
Oprah: And that's where it started to go wrong.
Whitney: Yeah.
Oprah: 'Cause you started to dim your own light.
Whitney: Yeah, sure did.
[Music starts playing and fades under talking]
Josh: I think that being Bobby Brown really, to me, when I look back at it, it really feels like an attempt to kind of like dull her shine a little bit.
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: She's like, "I'm not Whitney Houston, I'm Whitney Brown." Like, you know what I mean?
Tracy: Right, which is wild because the opposite is what happened in real life. There was a scene from the show where they're some place and he's trying to get somebody to remember him and he's like, "Hi, I'm Bobby Brown. Bobby Brown." Then he's like, "Whitney Houston's husband."
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: And to listen to how she felt like she had to do that with that kind of talent-
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: --it just makes me so sad.
Josh: And it also isn't lost on me that in their attempt, right, to seem really human, they really showed us, like, the most human thing that you could show which is (laughs), a woman dimming her light for a man.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: Like-
Tracy: Ooh!
Josh: --a talented ass-
Tracy: --kiss my ass, kiss my ass."
Josh: --a talented ass woman. Exactly.
Tracy: I'm tapping out.
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: Too real-
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: Too real. I want out. Untag me, I want out.
Josh: Me too, me too.
Tracy: And it’s difficult to imagine THE Whitney Houston going through this sort of stuff, right? Like she’s beautiful, she’s talented, she’s rich, she’s on all these pedestals, she should be immune to that kind of treatment--
Josh: Right.
Tracy: We think about it like she’s a celebrity and she was very much in the public eye so it kind of only magnified everything that was going on in her life, you know what I mean?
Josh: Yeah. Absolutely.
Tracy: And if Whitney’s going through it, that’s proof that it’s inescapable, everything is trash. Put the earth in rice and just start over again.
Josh: I hate it here! (laughs)
Tracy: (laughs)
[33:57]
Josh: I don't know if we can go much further into this analysis of Whitney Houston's legacy without acknowledging what feels really difficult, even though it happened so long ago--
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: It still feels like it was yesterday. Right?
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: Do you remember where you were when she died?
Tracy: I do remember. This was when I was living in Louisville, after I had lived in Philly. And again, you know I have Swiss cheese holes in my memory--
Josh: (laughs)
Tracy: --so the fact that I can remember this much about this day and this moment, says a lot. I had already had plans to go out with some friends to happy hour. I remember like, right before my friend was supposed to come to pick me up, we got the news that Whitney died.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Tracy: And I was just like, Oh my God! Have ya'll heard the news, do you still feel like going out? Should we go? And we were just like, yes we have to go out and do this for Whitney. We have to celebrate her legacy.
Josh: Mmmmm.
Tracy: So I can't remember where we went but I do know that most of the people were white, because this is Kentucky--
Josh: (laughs)
Tracy: --but the restaurant was playing nothing but Whitney on repeat and every single person was singing every single word. And I'm trying to tell you there has not been that much racial unity--
Josh: (laughs)
Tracy: in Louisville, since that day. Period. Full stop.
Josh: (laughs) Crossing the divide.
Tracy: Seriously!
Josh: I just remember, I got a three way call from my mom and my grandmother--
Tracy: Remember three way? Does that still exist?
Josh: It does, it does exist. But I haven't gotten one in a long time. Cause who talks on the phone, did somebody die? Like why, anyways--
Tracy: (laughs)
Josh: But someone had died. And so I got a three way call from my grandma and my mom. And we were all just like, did you hear? Yeah. And we were all like, are you okay? Cause it was this one moment where this person that was important to all of us, all 3 generations of us were all WOW.
Tracy: Right.
Josh: That hurts, that's rough.
Tracy: I feel like that's because there's something universal about her and her voice and her music. But also, it felt extra sad because by this point of her life, her and her addiction issues and stuff are in the news all the time, and the tabloids.
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: It felt like there was something really broken about it.
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: There was a moment in her career when she went from being America's Sweetheart, what was it? The Cosby Kid from Heaven, to being tabloid fodder.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Tracy: It's wild that that happened to her in her career, but it did.
Josh: She was such an easy target, I think.
Tracy: Right.
Josh: Because of her addiction issues, because of what seemed like a dysfunctional relationship with her husband--
Tracy: And because people realized she was black! I think.
Josh: Right, that too! And so, everyone was making fun of her all the time. I remember the Madtv TV skits that Deborah Wilson used to do.
Tracy: Mmmm. yeah.
Josh: Where she used to mess up the words because she was high. I remember Whitney on crack, being like a punchline of every kind of media--
Tracy: VH1 dragged her through the mud.
Josh: Exactly! It was bad.
[Music break, fades into “Learn something from this” Bounce remix]
[37:04]
Tracy: Joshua, guess what time it is.
Josh: What time is it?
Tracy: It's time to consult with the cardboard cut out of Tyra Banks that we both have in our brains.
Josh: (Laughs).
Josh: No, but I will take a cardboard cut out of Tyra Banks. (Laughs).
Tracy: (Laughs). I would love one. If anybody has one laying around-
Josh: Thank you.
Tracy: --send it to us. But this is where we ask the age old Tyra Banks question. Did we--
[CLIP] Tyra Banks: Learn something from this.
Josh: No.
Tracy: Well, wasted that sound effect-
Josh: (Laughs).
Tracy:: --goodnight everybody. (Laughs).
Josh: (Laughs).
Tracy: I learned something.
Josh: What?
Tracy: I learned that we need to start a campaign to get a new federal law on the books that you cannot and shall not attempt to cover Whitney Houston.
Josh: (Laughs).
Tracy: (Laughs). But beyond that, I think that we uncovered more about the person that Whitney actually was, right? Like, I can quote Being Bobby Brown, I can quote parts of The Wendy Williams interview, but I don't often sit--
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: --and like, really appreciate and consume what's being said and what's happening.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: And, it- it increased my appreciation for the person that she was and it just makes me wanna fight everybody who booed her at the Soul Train Awards.
Josh: (Laughs).
Tracy: Like, there's a list of people who owe Whitney Houston an apology, starting with that entire audience.
Josh: Let's just make the list.
[Music starts playing and fades under talking]
Tracy: Let's make the list. Mad TV, apologize--
Josh: Yes.
Tracy: --with all of your heart. Those Debra Wilson sketches, my gosh. Wendy Williams obviously needs to apologize.
Josh: Also, us.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Say more, say more.
Josh: We know they're going through traumatic experiences, we can see them going through traumatic experiences. But instead of offering them the help and support that they need, even if they aren't in a place where they can receive it, we turn it into this freak show thing.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: And, I think that we're having a lot of conversations about how we need to change that, but it's not something that I don't think we've really wrapped our hands around--
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: --or wrapped our heads around yet.
Josh: especially with that documentary that came out with Britney Spears, Framing Britney Spears--
Tracy: Mmmm.
Josh: I think that right now we're going through a time when people are looking back at how the media's treated celebrities and treated singers.
Tracy: Absolutely.
Josh: Specifically women. Right now it seems like there's a really big focus on white women. (laughs)
Tracy: (laughs) Surprise!
Josh: Surprise. And let’s be crystal clear: This is, has always been, will forever be a #FreeBritney podcast.
Tracy: It’s in the by-laws.
Josh: We’re stronger than yesterday. Don’t get it twisted. But I think that we're gonna go through a moment where we're really gonna sit down and examine how we've treated issues around substance abuse issues?
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Josh: And LGBT issues, and I hope that we would handle them differently. But part of me feels like I don't think that we would. Honestly. And that makes me really sad about where our culture is right now.
Tracy: And where it’s going, as well.
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: You see the same thing happening like, Britney Spears we mentioned, Monica Lewinsky. Oh, my gosh. Like-
Josh: You're right.
Tracy: --I wish I had her email address. I would apologize to her specifically because--
Josh: Absolutely.
Tracy: --I just didn't know better.
Josh: Absolutely.
Tracy: And I think a lot of times when shit like this is the norm, it's possible that you just don't know better and so you watch all of this stuff happening--
Josh: Right!
Tracy: --and you watch people say awful, horrible things to other people, like in public view, and it doesn't offend you like it should--
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: --because you don't know any better, you know?
Josh: Right. And when you know better, you do better.
Tracy: Yes.
Josh: So like, obviously we should have done differently--
Tracy: Clearly.
Josh: --to Whitney, like, she deserved better. But we- at the very, very, least, we should take what we learned from that situation and try to push it forward, right?
Tracy: Seriously.
Josh: Investigate the way that we talk about mental health--
Tracy: Yes.
Josh: --and like the way that we talk about addiction.
Tracy: Especially with black people.
Josh: Yeah, absolutely. And then also reimagine what we think our relationship to fame is. I'm thinking of Naomi Osaka.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: She's a really famous tennis star, right?
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: She decided, in order to protect her mental health, that she was going to take steps to not interact with the media. What is wrong with that?
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: Is that not what we want people to do?
Tracy: Yeah. It's not.
Josh: And I heard so many people being like, "You're an athlete. You're making all this money. Just shut up and do the interviews and play the game."
Tracy: "Shut up and let us tear you down. Shut up and let us-"
Josh: Exactly.
Tracy: -- “make ourselves feel better about not being famous and rich by making you want to kill yourself."
Josh: It feels like Whitney Houston again.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: Exactly. I think that we should all apologize to Whitney and I think that in Whitney's name, we should really, really, really try to just show some more empathy to people. Whether you know them or not, whether they're accessible or not. Like, sacrificing your mental health is not a prerequisite for--
Josh: For success.
Tracy: --success, it's not. You don't have any rights to someone's peace or happiness just because they have something that you don't. Look, nobody wants to be rich more than me, I promise you.
Josh: (Laughs).
Tracy: I swear to you. And there was a time, before I knew better, you know like I'm on twitter talking shit about celebrities just like everybody else was in the dawn of twitter.
Josh: Yeah, same.
Tracy: And like, all of us did it until we knew better.
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: Well church, as of this moment if you didn't know better today, you know better now. So, in Whitney's name, do better.
Josh: In Whitney's name, put your mental health first--
Tracy: Seriously.
Josh: --and let other people put their mental health first. And if they don't let you, you know what you say?
Tracy: What?
Josh: Kiss my ass.
Tracy: (Laughs). Bravo. Bravo.
[CLIP] Whitney Houston: Kiss my ass!
Tracy: Back Issue is a production of Pineapple Street Studios.
Josh: This show was created and is hosted by Tracy Clayton.
Tracy: That's me. That's me. And also, Josh Gwynn.
Josh: That's me. That's me.
Tracy: Our senior producer is also Josh Gwynn and our lead producer is Emmanuel Hapsis.
Josh: Our managing producer is John Asante.
Tracy: Our senior editor is Leila Day.
Josh: Our associate producers are Alexis Moore, Xandra Ellin and Briana Garrett. Our intern is Arlene Arevalo. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky, and our engineer is Raj Makhija.
Tracy: This show also features amazing music by Donwill. You can follow him on the socials @Donwill. And you can follow me on the socials @BrokeyMcPoverty.
Josh: You can follow me @RegardingJosh. On all the socials, you can subscribe to this podcast wherever free podcasts are sold, leave us a review--
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: --especially if it's a positive one. It really does help.
Tracy: Five stars please, thanks in advance. See you next week.
Josh: (Laughs).
Tracy: Okay, bye.
Josh: Bye.
Tracy: (Laughs). Build and cultivate her public- p- p- b- b- per- per- per- per- per- per- per- persona.
Josh: (Laughs).
Tracy: (Laughs).