BACK ISSUE
The Show That Made You Wanna Holler; This Week, We Talk 'In Living Color
This week, Tracy and Josh revisit the world of Fire Marshall Bill, Oswald Bates, and Benita Butrell (but you ain't heard that from us!) to find out the truth behind the cultural institution that was 'In Living Color.' Plus, they're joined by former cast member, Oscar Proud himself, Tommy Davidson. He gives them a behind the scenes look, talks about the cultural legacy of the show, and tells Tracy and Josh which 'In Living Color' cast members they should avoid in a fight.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION
00:00
Tracy Picture it, Louisville 1990.
[MUSIC]
Tracy My grandmother. I describe her as both like amazing and unique, but also just like your standard Southern country-ass granny, like. She was five foot even. Like, I've seen -her kill mice with her hands. [Laughs] She was fearless. She was not afraid of anything. One of her favorite things to do--she used to keep a pocket knife in her pocket at all times-- like a really dull, rusty pocket knife. And when she was kind of just like, you know, relaxing for the evening, she would take her foot and either put it on the dining room chair, or just like kind of cross it over her own leg and use the pocket knife to saw off the calluses... Such a normal sight for my grandma to do you know just half watching TV, half sawing in her foot off with the pocket knife.
[MUSIC]
Tracy What makes a person like that happy? What makes a person like that laugh? The only times I can remember her, like, laughing out loud,at something that was not gossip, or gossip, [laughs] was In Living Color. And it was this sketch in particular.
[CLIP] ILC: Blaine Hello! I'm Blaine Edwards--.
[CLIP] ILC: Antoine And I'm Antoine Merriweather.
[CLIP] ILC: Antoine & Blaine [Together] --And welcome to “Men On…Films."
[CLIP] ILC: Blaine The show that looks at movies--
[CLIP] ILC: Antoine --From a male point of view.
Tracy It was Damon Wayans and David Alan Grier. It's a sketch called Men on dot dot dot where these two very stereotypically gay Black men would just like review things. They'd review books, they'd review films, they’d review sports. And I don't know what it was about those sketches, but they just tickled her to death
[CLIP] ILC: Antoine: Then there’s Ghost. You know, Patrick Swayzee was the real standout in this film. You know, I’d breathe life into his spirit any day. [Crowd Laughs]
[CLIP] ILC: Antoine: Even I did have to go through Whoopi Goldberg. [Crowd Laughs]
[CLIP] ILC: Antoine: Perish the thought.
[CLIP] ILC: Blaine: Yes Indeed.
And she had this little giggle and she would go, [Imitating in high pitch] 'hee hee!' [Laughs] like that. It's a memory that I think about a lot. There are so few memories I have about my grandmother, so few of them I feel like are of her just sitting and laughing at something joyous because it's fun and because it’s funny. You know, because it tickled her. And it mattered even more because it was so Black. So This memory of my grandmother that I attach to the show is only one of many many reasons I love In Living Color but it’s probably my favorite one.
BUMPER [2:50]
[CLIP] Pop Culture Montage [Woman’s Voice 1] Beyonce? You look like Luther Vandross
[CLIP] Pop Culture Montage [00:03:11] [Woman’s Voice 2] Hoe, but make it fashion.
[CLIP] Pop Culture Montage [Woman’s Voice 3] But you ain't heard that from me.
[CLIP] Pop Culture Montage [Woman’s Voice 4] Fierce.
[CLIP] Pop Culture Montage [Woman’s Voice 5] Callin' [Soft female voices in background over beat]
[CLIP] Pop Culture Montage [Woman’s Voice 6] You see when you do... [Under: Female voice laughing] [Indistinct 03:17] …the clown comes back to bite--
[CLIP] Pop Culture Montage [Woman’s Voice 7] --I can't get no sleep cause ya'll.
[CLIP] Pop Culture Montage [Woman’s Voice 8] It's Britney, bitch.
[CLIP] Pop Culture Montage [Woman’s Voice 7] Ya'll not gon get no sleep cause a me--
[CLIP] Pop Culture Montage [Overlapping oices] --rooting for you Tiffany. We were all rooting for you-- But you ain't heard that from me-- [Overlapping Female voices crescendo over music]
[CLIP] Pop Culture Montage [Single Voice] Walls?
[CLIP] Pop Culture Montage Who said that?
[Theme music] Welcome to Back Issue. A weekly podcast that revisits formative moments--
Josh people--
Tracy --shows
Josh --songs
Tracy--and basically whatever else we want to discuss in pop culture
Josh Each week we're going to go back into the past and revisit unforgettable moments that we all think we remember. And we're going to learn about what they can teach us, about where we are right now. And Tracy, that story about your grandma is making me feel like we should dive deep into everything
CLIP [MUSIC]: In Living Color theme
[CLIP] ILC: Benita Butrell Hi Girl, I'm Benita Butrell. I know everybody in this neighborhood.
[CLIP] ILC: Jim Carrey Let Me Show you something.
[ClIP] ILC: Woman’s Voice Eddie, Johnny Kid, bright boy. It's a big world out there. What's in a name? [Indistinct Male Voice]
Tracy I'm Tracy Clayton.
Josh And I'm Josh Gwynn.
SEGMENT 1 - 4:04
Tracy So, Josh.
Josh Yep yep.
Tracy I know that we are both around the same age. [Josh: Mhm] We both clearly share a section of the same brain cause that's where we keep all of our pop culture references.
Josh Come on, Venn diagram brain-- [they laugh]
Tracy Oh, the part where it like meets in the middle. Yes.
Josh Exactly. [Tracy laughs]
Tracy But, you know, I also realized that I am a woman of a certain age, and I know that that is not the particular age that you are. So what I'm trying to ask, is [Josh: uh huh] does your little young ass, remember In Living Color?
Josh You know how like, if you have a home video of you as a child. Right. And you've seen this home video so many times [Tracy: Mhm] that you're not really sure whether you remember it, or [Tracy: Ohh] your family telling you about it. [Tracy: Mhm] That's how I feel about In Living Color. I was so young when it came out. I don't know if I remember.
Tracy I was gonna say, so it sounds like In Living Color for you is a potentially implanted false memory.
Josh The actual sketches, I know them because me and my family like reference them all the time. [Tracy: Uh huh] Me and my friends reference them all the time. But it's just crazy because of how embedded in culture it is. [Tracy: Oh, yeah.] I might not have seen it the first time that it was on, but I know who Fire Marshall Bill is. Like, I know who Oswald Bates is. [Tracy: Mhm] I know who Benita Butrel isl. [Tracy laughs] But I just don't know whether I remember seeing it or whether I've just been told so many times about it that it-- [Tracy: Yeah.] --implanted some sort of false memory in my head.
Tracy Right. And also, I can’t tell if I ‘m just biased and love the show, so I can only see it in this one particular light. BUT, we’re in luck, ell later on we’re going to talk to somebody who was actually there, in the middle of it all, who worked on it, who made it real: Tommy Davidson. Oh-Josh I know that you’re a newly inducted member of the Hamilton hive so you might like this, you ready? He was in… [Together] The Room Where it happened
Josh The Room Where it happened. Ayye!!
Tracy [Laughs] Welcome to the family, it’s so nice for you to be there.
Josh Thank You.
But before we even do all that,
I have a fun little game. [Josh: Uh oh...] I think it'll be fun. It'll be fun if I win. [JOsh laughs] If-If if I don't win, this is the worst fucking idea I've ever had.
Josh Ok, what is it? What is it?
Tracy Um, Okay. You know that game six degrees uhhh... What was it? Kevin Bacon?
Josh Yeah. Kevin Bacon--separation from Kevin Bacon, I think?
Tracy Yeah, let's do that, but with In Living Color. Six degrees [JOsh: Okay....] of In Living Color.
Josh Okay.
Tracy So, we'll take a thing, and you gotta trace it back to In Living Color. Some kinda how-- like the writers, or like musical acts, or actors. [Josh: Ok] Stuff like that.
Josh Let's do it.
Tracy OK. All right.
Josh [Laughs] OK, ready, Tracy?
Tracy No, I'm over here...Trying to Google names just like...I feel like I'm studying for a test...
Josh No Google! No Google! That's cheating.
Tracy I know, that's why I'm trying to do it now. Duh! [Josh laughs]
Josh OK.
Tracy It did not help.
Josh Kenya Moore from Real Housewives of Atlanta.
Tracy Ohhhhh, dear. [Game show "critical moment" sound] If Google was allowed, I could do this because Kenya started as an actress kind of sort of. She started in like videos and shit, right? Oh, ok. Wait, no. Mmm mm. OK. We can do this.
Josh You got it?
Tracy I don't know. We'll see.
Josh OK.
Tracy OK. [Snaps] Kenya Moore... [Josh: Mhm] ummm was the first Black...Miss USA or Miss America.
Josh Don't get it wrong!
Tracy I know! [Josh laughs] I know that's why I'm like 'Ugh Ugh which is it?!' OK. She was the first Black Miss USA... Umm I'm not out yet. [Josh: Ok. Ok.] I'm not out--I really hate losing, I really hate losing! OK, so Kenya Moore [Josh: Mhm] is on show... Oh! She's on Real Housewives of Atlanta. Kandi Burruss.
Josh OK.
Tracy Kandi Burruss, one of the lead singers of Escape? [Josh: Mhm] The group Escape, was founded to be a female version of Jodeci.. [Josh: oK.] Jodeci was often spoofed on [Music change 48:51] In Living Color.
Josh AYYY!
Tracy Oh I did it I did it I did it! [Claps] [Electronic game win sound 48:55] [Josh laughs]
Tracy Oh, my gosh. I really did not think I was gonna be able to do that.
Josh I I knew you were going to be able to do it.
Tracy [Dramatically] Thank you for believing in me when no one else did. Because, you know. OK. This is fun now that I didn't lose. Let's go. Your Turn.
Josh Mhm. Oh, Lord.
Tracy Let's go with R.L. Stine. [Josh sighs quietly.] Dun dun, DUNNN!
Josh R.L. Stine. [Tracy: Mhm] That's the guy that wrote the Goose Bumps series, correct?
Tracy Yes, that is correct. Which I did not read because I did not like being scared.
Josh I...I think I got it.
Tracy No way.
Josh So, [Gameshow "critical moment" sound] R.L. Stine wrote the series Goose Bumps, [Tracy: Mhm] which Jack Black was in the movie adaptation of. [Tracy: Mhm] Jack Black was in School of Rock with Sarah Silverman. [Tracy: Ok] Sarah Silverman did Blackface and... Now I'm just kidding!
Tracy You know what though? [Josh laughs] I would accept it. I would accept that shit. [They laugh]
Josh --how the hell. Oh! Sarah Silverman was in the movie adaptation of Rent with Idina Menzel, who starred as like, you know, "Let it Go" for Disney. Where Tommy Davidson is employed as the father [Tracy: Wow] of The Proud Family.
Tracy Wow! [Clapping]
Josh AYYY! That was hard. [Clapping]
Tracy I would have given up and quit my whole job if I had to do that. R.L Stine?
Josh Yeah.
That was hard.
MUSIC BREAK HERE. [9:38]
Tracy I would really love to give a quick timeline, if you will, of the show and why it's so important to America even if we don’t realize it. Is that cool?
Josh Let's do it.
Tracy OK. [Music] The year is 1990. [Josh: Mhm] The specific date is April 15th, So not only was it tax day is, it's also the date of the very first episode of In Living Color aired on Fox. So In Living Color is an ensemble sketch, variety, improv show, very much like Saturday Night Live. SNL was mad white, as was the rest of TV, pretty much. Like we hadn't gotten into the... Oh my gosh, the 90s were so Black. We haven't gotten to that era of TV yet. You know what I mean? Like, there were shows like the Cosby show, Fresh Prince, and like a lot of black comedy that were, like, stories about the Black family and like, its importance but, In Living Color was very very different, right?
Like, it came from a time when like, the standup comedy scene in New York City is blowing up. It's where you find Eddie Murphy, there's Robert Townsend, there's Keenen Ivory Wayans, who's the creator of In Living Color. There is Robin Harris who wrote Bebe's Kids -- RIP to him. [Josh: RIP.] And so this is happening in New York City, but it's happening in like, specific clubs in New York City, like the Black clubs, because you couldn't go to, like, the Laugh Factory or the Comedy Store or wherever and just get on stage like a funny white person could do. So, one of those people that got his start in Black comedy clubs was Keenen Ivory Wayans. Keenen Ivory Wayans--tons of brothers and sisters, all talented, all very funny. Keenen's best friend at the time was Robert Townsend. Hilarious. They had made movie magic together with Hollywood Shuffle, which we just mentioned, and a movie called I'm Gonna Git You Sucka. You've seen that, right?
Josh Ohhhh, I love that movie!
Tracy So good. So funny. And so around this time, Robert Townsend paid for Hollywood Shuffle himself. Like credit cards, right out of pocket. And so I think once that happened and once it was so well received, they were like, 'OK, we can pretty much take over the world.' There was a comedy revolution happening, and out of that comedy revolution came
[CLIP] Music “In Living Color” Theme
Woman’s Voice: Ladies and Gentlemen, Keenan Ivory Wayans…. [Claps]
Tracy Keenen was intentional about having a multi ethnic cast. And he basically said, we want one of each one. [Laughs]
Josh The 3LW approach.
Tracy If you will. [Josh laughs] And you know what? I shall. There were only two white people in the cast. One you may know as a then James Carrey, now called Jim Carrey, [Josh: Mhm] and um, a woman named Kelly Coffield. And that was it. Like there was just two white people on the cast. And like, I was just like, can you do this? Is this allowed? [Josh laughs] They pretty much tell Keenen he can do whatever he wants because nobody...I don't know that anybody thought the show was going to become what it became. Right. [Josh: Mhm] But, took off, blew up--to the point that after being on the air for one season in September 1990, they win the Emmy for outstanding music variety or comedy series. Two years after that, In Living Color changed the way that the Super Bowl is presented to the world.
Josh Wait, what do you mean?
Tracy [Inhales] So glad you asked. So, in 1992, In Living Color hosted an alternative to the Super Bowl halftime show because apparently back then it was one of the most un-slapping-est things ever. Like it had, just like, marching bands nobody knew-
Josh [Laughs]
Tracy -Christmas carols, and just like: here is something to happen on the field while you go and pee and get some more snacks, basically.
Josh Mhmm.
Tracy So, what In Living Color did was they created their own halftime show.
Josh Mmm.
Tracy And urged people to switch over from the real halftime show to their halftime show and actually have some fun, right?
Josh I bet you that the NFL did not like that
Tracy Turns out that they were a wee bit threatened, would you like to know why?
Josh Why?
Tracy It’s because In Living Color’s halftime show killed it.
Josh Really?
Tracy Okay, this is how big In Living Color’s halftime show was, right?
Josh Mhmm.
Tracy According to Rolling Stone, this is a quote: “Nearly twenty-nine million viewers tuned in that night, and the Super Bowl’s ratings for the second half crashed by ten points.”
Josh And I - oop!
Tracy Right? The the And-I oop-est oop! of them all. [Both laugh]
Josh Damn
Tracy Lil Black-ass In Living Color did that. And so then the NFL was like No, this is bad, we need to make sure that this does not happen again
Josh Mhmm.
Tracy And they did that by having Michael Jackson come through the next year, and he was the very first celebrity half-time show.
Josh Michael Jackson, in 1993?
Tracy Exactly.
Josh Laughs.
Tracy The height of like, Michael Jackson mania. That’s who they went to, because they were that threatened. In Living Color made that big of a splash. And, from then on, the shows have gotten bigger, you do remember when Beyonce--
Josh Mhmm.
Tracy --was the performer. And her whole band of badass black panther women. In Living Color. You can thank In Living Color for that performance.
[CLIP] Beyonce [Singing] You just might be upset, Bill Gates in the makin.'
[MUSIC]
Josh: There was so much good that came out of that show. I mean the just the fly girls, like they opened up every episode with those dance routines. You got J-Lo, you got Rosie Perez, I mean lots of people got their start on that show. Tracy, what are some of your favorite moments from In Living Color?
Tracy Ohhhh there were so many. So, of course--and this is one that you know. Benita Butrell is, you know, your typical, like, hood auntie will say, you know, she's always shows up at weddings, that she may or may not have been invited to, or funerals, that she may or may not have been invited to. Or like a chili cook off. And she's just kind of always there. She was wearing this fur coat for some reason, but she still had like sponge rollers in her hair. And she would just like talk shit about everybody after saying hello to them, [Laughs] Be like, 'Hey, Girl. You ain't aged a day.' Prolly cause she got a good plastic surgeon [Josh laughs] but don't want to gossip, so you ain't heard that from me.'
[CLIP] ILC: Benita Buttrell Miss Jenkins is a sterling example of a human being. Mm mm mm. Hey Ms Jenkins! SHe is something else, honey. Just don't let it take her shoes off in your apartment. Feet smelled like a dill pickle. [Audience laughter]
Josh There was such a distinct difference between when she was talking to the audience [Tracy: Mhm] and when she was talking to the person that she was gossiping about. [Tracy: Yess.] That's what made it really funny. You would hear her, like, draw out her voice when she was talking to the person across the street and be like, 'Hey, girl, how you doin?' [Tracy echoes. Tracy: Mhm] And then when she was talking to the audience, she was talking real quick. And, you know, everything that she was saying right now was actually the truth. [Tracy: Exactly] The playing of those two rhythms [Tracy: Mhm] always made me crack up.
[CLIP] ILC Benita Buttrell Hey Tee Tee Ty Ty Roni! How you doin’ tyrone? Awww… Laretha girl, I hear you hit the numbers! I bet you you played 10, 34, 43, and 6, right? Girl, you always said those were your lucky numbers. [laughs, crowd laughs] Her unlucky numbers are more like it. [crowd laughs] Mhmm. 10 for how many years her husband’s been in prison. 34 for how old she say she is. [crowd laughs] 43 for how old she really is. [crowd laughs] And 6, that’s how many years that dumbass Tyrone been in the 3rd grade. [crowd laughs] But I ain’t one to gossip, so you ain’t heard that from me! [crowd laughs]
Tracy And it lends authenticity to the character. Right. [Josh: Mhm] Like, I feel like if there's a white person writing that character, that might be a nuance that they would not get picked up on. [Josh: Right.] That's why you got to have folks at the table, man. [Josh: Exactly] gotta get the-- gotta have that authenticity in it. So she's probably my favorite. I think Benita Butrell at this point is on my vision board. I want to be the auntie, just kind of like crashes all the weddings and all the parties and is like nice to people. And then I just turn around, talk shit and say whatever I want to say. And just live my life and get all the free food. That's basically what Benita Butrell did.
Josh Benita Butrell should be the White House press secretary.
Tracy [Gasps] Oh my god...
Josh Benita Butrell should be like, 'So ya'lls president said this... You ain't heard it from me, but that's not really true. [Tracy laughs] What really happened is... That's what--That's what I need from a White House press secretary.
Tracy Obviously, Oswald Bates is one. I know that you love to refer to him as T.I. [Josh laughs] ...I just put you on blast, I sure did. But it's not a bad comparison.
[CLIP] ILC: Oswald Bates If I may retain my liquids here for one moment, I'd like to continue the redundance of my quote unquote intestinal track, see, because to preclude on the issue of world domination, would only circumvent-- excuse me, circumcise, the revelation that reflects the aphrodisiatic symptoms, which now perpetrates the Jerhi Curl’s activation. [Audience laughter]
Tracy So Oswald Bates is this man played by Damon Wayans. He's in prison and he's always like lecturing you on something. But he's using words that are either not real words, or he's using them incorrectly, trying to sound smarter than he is. And I feel like we all know a Negro like that in our own lives.
Josh Indubitably.
Tracy Indubitably. [Laughs] Other favs. Other favs, other favs. This wasn't a character that was like as big as like Wanda or Fire Marshall Bill or anything but-- [Josh: Mhm] --I just thought it was so good because it stood out among like these, like uproarious and like very outrageous sketches. So the white women in the cast--Her name was Kelly Coffield, who's an amazing actress. [Josh: Mm.] She had this character named Velma Mulholland, right? And her whole conceit was she's like this actress from the 40s who's stuck in a 40s movie. Right? [Josh: Oh, my God.] She's talks very much like this, you know.
[CLIP] ILC: Damon Wayans Listen my man, Steve told me a lot about you. Said, you a party girl and you kind of old fashioned--
[CLIP] ILC: Kelly Coffield Lies! All lies, I tell you. Sure, maybe I hung around with the wrong crowd and skipped Sunday school, but I'm not all bad.
[CLIP] ILC: Damon Wayans No he said good things about you. He said that, you know,besides you looking good he said that you know, you worked at the five and ten, got jobski and uh, you like old movies.
[CLIP] ILC: Kelly Coffield Sure I see a picture show now and again,
Tracy She would have been the dame that walked in to, like, the private Dick's office [Josh: Aw yes!] in like a 30s movie. Like she's always in black and white and like everything else in color. She calls everybody Johnny. 'Oh, Johnny. The last time I saw you, you went out for a pack of cigarettes. and a quart of gin and you never came back.' And I'm just like, 'why is this funny?' Like, it doesn't fit with anything else. But like, it's-- I always thought it was so good.
[Music Ends]
Josh When you look back at these clips, what are you proud of, Tracy? What emotions do you feel?
Tracy That's a good question. I am very proud of the women on this show [Josh: Mm] because I feel like, it's so old and it's so crusty, but people really feel like women are not funny.
Josh I don't get that.
Tracy I'm just like, ya'll know terrible people. Clearly, we haven't met, first of all, OK...
Josh But also, like, what kind of house did you grow up in? The funniest people in my family are women.
Tracy Hands down. Hands down. And like, I feel like women always get left out of conversations about, like, who's the best, like, comedic actor, [Josh: Mhm] because then it's like, 'who's the best comedic actress?' [Josh Mm] You know, it's just like, I know they're like Tichina Arnold and fuckin' Tisha Campbell would out-act any man, any day of the week on some comedy shit, whatever. But I mean, like the talent that's in this show, you had Kim Wayans, you had Kelly Coffield. You had T'Keyah Crystal Keymah, who you may recognize as the mom on That's So Raven. And they're hilarious. And the thing is, like a lot of the cast didn't even see themselves as comedic actors, like they weren't standups. They had, like, gone to school for like quote unquote serious acting--
Josh Like David Alan Grier.
Tracy --Like David Alan Grier, same for T'Keyah Crystal Keymáh. And here they are just being like, hilarious--funnier than a lot of the men, like talent wise, especially. You know, like, T'Keyah Crystal Keymáh did so many different impressions. Same with Kelly Coffield. Later on, you had Anne-Marie Johnson--like I mean, it's just like... [Josh: Mhm] I think that the women really outshone the man a lot of times.
Josh So did you see yourself in the show?
Tracy It just felt like this is a part of my life that I recognized. You know, like there was something in that portrayal of Blackness, fucked up as it was it was in several spots. There was something about like, the types of Black life they would focus on. I'm just like, oh, I have a reference for that. [Josh: Mhm] For example, there was another sketch where they had like, the Olympics of church shoutin' basically and like praise dancing--
Josh Wait--
Tracy Yes. Yes.
[CLIP] ILC: Sketch [Man’s Voice] ...Great, for Sister Rosetta. Next up is a deaconess from Louisville, Kentucky.
[CLIP] ILC: Sketch [Woman’s Voice shouting] Ho! Hey! Hey! Hey! Deliverance! [Electric guitar in background]
Tracy And she was from Louisville, Kentucky, which is where I'm from. [Josh: Ohhh] So I'm just like, 'Oh my gosh! What? They know about Louisville? They know about shoutin? They know about praise dancin?'
Josh Where's the camera? Are they watching me right now?
Tracy Right. Did I write this? I know I'm eight [Josh laughs] and I'm just now learning how to do that whole thing. [Josh laughs] But did I? So I think it's more so that there were like, very nuanced parts of Black life that I-- it just felt insider-ey to me in some points, and in some spots, I think. So I think that's why I saw myself.
Josh I felt the same way, except for with one sketch.
Tracy Which one is that?
Josh "Men on..." You know that sketch you were talking about earlier where Damon Wayans and David Allen Greir were like film critics? But like, they’re blatantly making fun of black queerness, you know? I didn’t have that language then but, that’s what they were doing.
Tracy Mmmmm...
[CLIP] ILC: Sketch [Voice 1] Now I'd like to talk about a film I've been anxiously awaiting to see, Great Balls of Fire. [Audience laughter]
[CLIP] ILC: Sketch [Voice 2] I ain't gonna touch it, but the title alone gets two snaps up. [Audience laughter and screaming]
Josh What we were saying in terms of age, I was really, really, really young. Right. [Tracy: Mhm.] But, I think that I was old enough to ascertain that I had something really in common with the characters in that sketch. [Tracy: Mhm] And so it felt like when ever they were the punch line, I was also the punch line... [Tracy: Mmmmm] to a joke that people around me did not know that they were telling. [Wow] if that makes sense?
Tracy It does.That's a very poignant way to put it, too. I definitely get that. And I felt that, but not as strongly, of course, due to my [Josh: Mhm] privileges. And like, there’s, um, there was the handyman sketch, which , even then I was like eeugh.
Josh What-What’s the handyman sketch?
Tracy So, basically, it was a character of Damon Wayans’ where he portrayed a stereotypically disabled superhero named handy man and like he just like,
Josh Yikes.
Tracy Yeah, with all the, Yeah, it wasn’t great. It was not great. And I mean like, of course, comedy ages poorly by virtue of what it is, right? You know, not not everything is gon’ make it to the other side.
Josh To the other side? [Laughs]
Tracy You know? Not everything is.
Josh Up Yonder?
Tracy Not everything makes it up yonder. But um, even knowing that like there- I-w, I will say, there are some that I just, like, cannot participate in, in this day and age, and was uncomfy with back then too.
Josh Mhm. So there's sketches like 'Men On...' that don't feel good anymore, maybe. [Tracy laughs. Right' They probably did age very well. [Tracy: Yeah] But as our resident In Living Color expert, are there any sketches that you think speak directly to the moment that we're in right now [Tracy Mm!] with the reckoning, and the uprisings, and white people realizing that racism is a thing?
Tracy You know, yes. And if you had asked me this question like a month ago before I had read the book that I've been reading, I would have probably said probably not. But this book reminded me of a sketch um, that Tommy Davidson, Kelly Coffield and Jim Carrey, the known-as-James Carrey. I just--I'm so tickled that, like in the credits, he's listed as James Carey. [Josh: Mhm] Can you imagine him still being called James Carrey? [Josh: No.] I'm gonna call him James from here out. [Josh laughs] So James Carrey plays a talk show host. [Josh: OK.] And Kelly Coffield is an animal expert. You know how they like bring exotic animals on [Josh: Mhm] to like meet the like the host or whatever. And Tommy Davidson is the exotic animal. And the animal is [Josh: Oo!?] a homeboy. [Josh: Oo ugh?!] Doesn't sound great, I know. I get it. Now, it is relevant in subject matter... [Josh: Uh huh] At the end, I'm just kind of like, 'Mm, but the message is there.'
[CLIP] LC: Sketch [Woman’s voice] And this this is Calvin. He's a homeboy Sapien Africanus. Or-or B-boy, as they're known in the neighborhood.
Josh Wow.
Tracy So I spotted lots of relevance in there. There is the explaining of Black culture to white people.
Josh Yeah. It starts off as all of those movies from the early 2000s where it's like, 'Black people be like... White people [Tracy: Mhm] be like...
Tracy It's very much a fish out of water. [Josh: Mhm] Like that whole situation, like, [Josh: Mhm] 'Oh my gosh, this new exotic being... [Josh: Yeah] the segregation in the world is so much, I've never seen one in real life before.
[CLIP] ILC: Jim Carrey Is he dangerous?
[CLIP] ILC: Kelly Coffield [Female Voice] Well, Alan, like any of God's creations, without love, a proper diet, a decent education and equal opportunities, he could be extremely dangerous!
[CLIP] ILC: Jim Carrey All these lights and cameras don't help either. He's got a gun!
[CLIP] ILC: Kelly Coffield [Female Voice] No, no, Alan, it's just, candy!
Josh The landing of the lines about access to education, housing, health care--
Tracy Love!
Josh --What they're doing is they're... [Laughs] I'm gonna sound like Oswald Bates. [Tracy: Yay!] What they're doing is they're their problem with rising the white gaze. Right.
Tracy Mm! They're problifemfying [Josh laughs] the tucherility of.. [Laughs]
Josh Because most of the comedy at the time was from the white perspective. So they're taking the white perspective of Black people, [Tracy: Mhm] turning it on its head and making fun of that.
Tracy And it's really interesting, like as I re-watch it, I'm always surprised to find those moments, because when I do think about the show, those aren't the moments that like stick out to me, [Josh: Mm] you know. But it's always like satisfying to see that there were those moments in between all of these other, like, heavy, difficult to consume moments because [Josh: Mhm] it was such a huge show, it did have such a huge platform, [Josh: Mhm] and a chance to, like, say something. And they snuck it in there! At least a few times, it was in there.
Josh It's crazy how relevant that sketch is like today, like...still.
Tracy Seriously like, You could do the exact same sketch but, substitute Tommy Davidson with Quavo. Same thing.
Josh Right?
[CLIP] ILC: Tommy Davidson: Yo. Just cause you livin large with crazy bank and stupid wheels and I'm butt naked, don't give you the right to dish, you know what I'm saying? [Audience laughter and clapping]
[CLIP] ILC: Jim Carrey: Porquois?
[CLIP] ILC: Kelly Coffield: Well, uh, theirs is a rapidly changing language, Alan. There's new terminology almost daily. But as of last Friday, what he said to you was, just because you're rich and he's poor, doesn't give you the right to disrespect him. [Music 24:10
Tracy Speaking of Tommy Davidson, who knew that he had bars like that? I was like, OK, you [Indistinc] rap? Oh snap.
Josh [Laughing] Ha! Look at you. Bars.
Tracy Bars! [Josh laughs] [Indistinct] [They laugh]
Josh But I think it would be a really good idea if we could talk to him.
Tracy Mmm. If only we could talk to Tommy Davidson.
Josh Hey--
Josh & Tracy [Together] Guess what?! [They laugh]
Tracy We did!
Josh So we wanted to get a insider perspective of what it was like to be a part of the vanguard of Black comedy. What was it like to work at In Living Color? What was it like to see the impact of what In Living Color was doing to the culture? And so we called Tom Davidson.
Tracy And he picked up the phone.God bless. [Music]
INTERVIEW 30:07
Tracy What is the most important thing you think you learned on In Living Color over all?
Tommy Davidson The most important thing that I learned In Living Color is that basically there's nothing I can't do. [Josh & Tracy: Mm] As long as I apply myself and learn it.
Josh How long into your experience on In Living Color did it take you to learn that lesson?
Tommy Davidson I basically, like the first day. [Josh: Mm] Because the camera came on and I froze.
Tracy Oh really?
Tommy Davidson --Yeah I froze. And trust me, I was bad then, boy. [Josh and Tracy laugh] You know, I was bad. I was ready. I was ready, I had everything it took, you know. [Tracy: Uh huh] And I froze. When that red light came on. when that red light came on, the realization of where I was-- you know, when you way up high, they say, don't look down. [Josh: Right.] I looked down.
Tracy First thing you do [laughing] is look down--
Tommy Davidson --Whoa, I'm on a edge of a mountain, you know what I mean? [Tracy: Uh huh] And so Damon came and whispered in my ear. He said, Nigga, You came too far. [Josh & Tracy: Mm] And plus. You deserve it. [Josh: Mm].
Tracy Oh, man.
Tommy Davidson And [Tracy: Ah!] I was just like, POW! And it didn't stop from there. So that was the moment where limitless became a part of me.
Josh Mm.
Tracy Mm. See? People just don't know the impact of just being told, 'Hey, you can do something, [TD: Mhm, mhm.] you can do this. You deserve this.' UGH. And as a Black woman, I would talk about that forever, but... I'm so glad that you had that when you had it, because you make your way onto In Living Color, and you gave me some of my favorite characters. Characters that I still quote today. I was actually watching a "sweet tooth, sweet toooth, Jones--
Tommy Davidson --Oh Sweet Tooth Jones--Yeah.
Tracy --Yes!
Tommy Davidson [In character] --Cha Cha! Karate. [Tracy laughs] [Indistinct 27:44-46] Sugarbear... Lotty Dotty!
Tracy Lotty Dotty! [Josh and Tracy laugh]
Tommy Davidson Step to the right, step get to the right [Tracy snaps]--
Tracy Heyyy
Tommy Davidson my kids are [Tracy in unison] all right. Ughehhhh! [Laughter and clapping]
Tracy Oh, my gosh. How do you come up with your characters?
Tommy Davidson You know what, it just happens. [Tracy: Mm.] It just already there. [Tracy: Mm] What I have is something that's a gift that was given to me. And I don't--I still don't understand it. [Tracy: Mhm] But I. I just ride it when it comes.
Josh: Can you tell me about the process of like, you've been working on this impression, or this character, and now you have to pitch it. [Tracy: Mm] And it has to come out of your head. Like [TD: Yeah] What was that process like on In Living Color?
Tommy Davidson That was more of a learned technique. [Josh: Mm.] You know, to be able to express your idea and have someone else understand that [Josh: Exactly.] is is is work. [Tracy: Mm] [Josh:Yeah.] It's about focusing that in. But that focus didn't happen because I'm some genius. That focus happened because if you don't do that, it ain't gon' get on the show.
Tracy Mmm. That sounds like the most terrifying thing in the world.
Tommy Davidson Yeah. You had to. You and your writer would come in there and both of you would pitch that thing and Keenen would be sitting there. [Tracy laughs] And he'd be like, 'All right. Let me see it.' [Josh & Tracy: Mm]
Josh That seems like so much stress.
Tommy Davidson It was like, being on on a long trip with your family. [Josh: Mm] [Tracy laughs] Just like it was fun.
Josh Yeah. Okay.
Tommy Davidson You know? [Tracy laughs] and if it if it didn't go, it didn't go. If it didn't work... We laugh more at stuff that didn't work.
Josh Right.
Tracy Mmmm.
Tommy Davidson You know what I mean? [Tracy: Yeah] We tease each other all week about that.
Tracy Yikes. Yikes.
Tommy Davidson It was a-- Yeah. [Tracy laughs] It was a win--It was a win win. It was a win win. [Tracy: Uh huh.] You gonna get a laugh one way or the other. You know?
Tracy Well that's good at least.
Tommy Davidson Yeah.
Tracy Were there any characters of yours that you were really attached to that did not make it on the show?
Tommy Davidson Um, No.
Tracy That's not what I heard! a little birdie told me that [TD: Eh] there was once um a sketch that you wanted to do. It was Sammy Davis Junior as Nelson Mandela. [Laughs]
Tommy Davidson Oh, Yeah. It didn't it didn't make the pilot.
Tommy Davidson they said that they didn't want to put on the show cause Sammy was really sick at the time. You know what I mean? But ah he's singing all these songs. You know, [In character] 'Sammy is Mandela on Broadway!' [Josh & Tracy laugh] you know. So it's like, he's going, [Singing] 'Mr. [Indistinct …Steve Biko] you know, and he's singing all these songs, you know what I mean. [Josh and Tracy laughing] [Singing] 'Whether I'm wrong. No cat's gonna bar this ebony star from singing my song!'
Josh [Laughing] Oh, my God.
Tommy Davidson --You know. Yeah. [SInging] Mr. Steve Biko.... You know, and all this stuff. You know, [Singing] 'It's amazing. It's exciting!' You know, so.
Tracy Oh, my gosh. I was just like, whose brain imagines Sammy Davis Junior as Nelson Mandela?
Tommy Davidson Hey.
Tracy That is just a fan--
Tommy Davidson Hey.
Tracy --Fantastic to me, oh, my gosh.
Tommy Davidson Yeah. And having to pay-having to pay rent helps to.
Josh You know?
Tracy Well, yeah, that is a good motivator. That is a fantastic motivator--
Tommy Davidson Yeah, you know? You know?
Josh Did you have any favorite moments behind the scenes that you can tell us about?
Tommy Davidson Ah probably one of the biggest nights was when D-Nice came. [Josh & Tracy: Mmmm] D-Nice came. And it was something about D-Nice--He he just turned it out. Turned it out. [Tracy: Mm.] And then um, Latifaj and and and Monie --
Tracy --Monid in the middle.
Josh Where she at?
Tracy She's still in the middle!
Josh She's still in the middle! [Josh & Tracy laugh]
Tommy Davidson Monie in the middle! Where they at? [Josh & Tracy laugh] [Indistinct] ...And and and her and her and Queen killed that.
Tracy I remember that performance--
Tommy Davidson] --Yeah. So. Yeah. So that--those two, those two are the ones that really stick out, you know? [Tracy: Uh huh] [Josh: Mhm] And um of course, me and Jamie's sketch with Tupac.
Josh Right.
[CLIP]
Tupac I’m Tupac man.
Ace Oh Oh Riiiiight. You Tupac
Main Man You Tupac Uh Huh. Uh huh. Look, if you was really Tupac, you’d be with Canon.
Ace Girls be screaming and stuff, talking bout “keep your head up”. They’d be hollerin’ at you or something.
Main Man Wha-hey’d go [screeching noises]. I ain’t seen none of that.
Tupac Check this out bruh. I got a show to do. I don’t appreciate your attitude. You know we-
Main Man Hey Hey
Ace This stepping to me who doe- oooh don’t do that. Don’t do that... [Fades].
Tommy Davidson That was the joint.
[Music]
Josh When you were in the middle of it. [TD: Uh huh] Did you know how big and important the show was?
Tommy Davidson Yeah, we did. [Josh: Mm] let's put it this way. I'll use a sports analogy. [Josh: Okay.] The only people that knew that they were gonna win the game between the Patriots and the Eagles were the Eagles. [Josh: Mm] They knew-- You're not going beat the Patriots no other way.
Josh You have to know it inside. [Tracy: Mm]
Tommy Davidson I got something for your ass. [Josh & Tracy laugh.] But as a people we've been like that. We've been like that. Just like my great great great great grandmother. You know, she took that stick push that mess outta that pig intestine, finessed it [Tracy: oo!] so I can grow up big and strong.
Tracy There you go. Had to have that a chitlin loaf-- [Josh laughs]
Tommy Davidson You know what I'm sayin? You know what I mean?
Tracy --Makes your spine strong.
Tommy Davidson Yeah, Yeah. So that's what we're made of. [Tracy laughs] We're made of that ingenuity.
Josh Yeah. [Music 33:04]
Tommy Davidson When In Living Color was on, we were in a place where we needed to express all of the aspects of who we were. So [Tracy: Mhm] it was welcomed because In Living Color wasn't a Black thing all the way. [Tracy: Yeah.] It was just a show with the Black perception. [Josh: Mhm] What happened was, there was just a blending of what was already there. But, no one had ever seen it, that's all.
Tracy Yeah.
Josh I think another thing that like when you're talking about cycles and things that happen then [TD: Mhm] and if they would be OK with happening now... Like, I was reading your book, uh Living in Color. [TD: Mhm.] there was like a lot of stuff that you were talking about in terms of like how hard it would be for me to, like, work in that environment. Like, I remember you talking about like people making fun of pitches and keeping them on the wall and like just like the struggle in terms of like coming up against this core group of people that were making all the decisions on the show.
Tommy Davidson Mhm.
Josh How would you describe your perception in terms of how it was to function on that site and get your job done?
Tommy Davidson You know, you got to love something to stick in there. [Josh: Right.] You know what I mean? You got to love it, ok? So we loved it. And we didn't care about the repercussions. we didn't really care about what the network was gonna do. [Josh: Mhm] We just did it. And we also didn't care what Keenen thought.
Tracy Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah.
Tommy Well, we did but-- he told--he told us, you know, 'I don't want ya'll to hold back nothing now. Ya'll go for it.' [Laughing] Then after like a season, he was like, 'Ya'll gonna get this show canceled, man. [Tracy and Josh laugh] Ya'll gonna get the show can--
Tracy You're like, 'Well you had said to not hold nothin back so--' [Laughs]
Tommy Davidson Yeah. Yeah.Yeah. But secretly, he loved it. [Josh & Tracy: Mm]
Josh There was this paragraph that was in your book that, like, knocked me out cause you started talking about, like, how all these people that were involved In Living Color and all the things that they went on to do. [Laughs]
Tracy Yesss!
Josh --And it was like, [clapping noise] what did y'all not touch? [Tracy: Yeah!] Like it was it was like, there was like a writer, Sandy Frank, that ended up working on Fresh Prince of Bel Air. [TD: Right] [Tracy: Right.] Michael Petok, who worked on the Sinbad Show. Like--
Tommy Davidson Yeah. [Tracy: Uh huh] Friends.
Josh --Sister, Sister. Kim Coles
Tommy Davidson] Yeah. Uh uh--Rosie Perez.
Josh Hanging with Mr. Cooper.
Tommy Davidson J. Lo--
Tracy ...Living Single...
Josh --like all of this.
Tommy Davidson Ray. Jamie Foxx--
Tracy Bernie Mac's show.
Tommy Davidson You know, haahhhh what?! [Tracy laughs]
Josh So I know you got the opportunity to write this book, but if you had to give somebody a logline, [TD: Mhm] like an elevator pitch of like what the legacy of the show actually is, like, what would it be?
Tommy Davidson Mhm.
Tracy Mmm.
Tommy Davidson That it's you. In Living Color is you. That's wha-- how I'd logline it. You know, you walk on the moon, float like a balloon. It's never too late. It's never too soon. Take it from me [Tracy: Come on now.] cause aaah 'ight to be. Right?
Josh Mhm.
All together[Unison] [Indistinct] …In Living Color... [All laugh] [Overlapping voices] Heavy D…
Tracy RIP Heavy D
Tommy Davidson [[Indistinct] Heavy D came out of that joint, too. Come on Now.
Josh Yeah.
Tracy That's right. So before we let you go, we have a quick segment that we call--
Tommy Davidson [Singing] Before I let go [making sound effects] doo doo doo doo doo... [Tracy joins in 39:51] Bom bom bom bom... Ah Ah ah ah ah-- [Josh & Tracy laugh] Alright, go head, go head.
Tracy [Singing] Before I let you--
All together [Singing] Goooooo whoooaaa Ohhhhhhh... [They sing and riff]
Tracy and Tommy Davidson I Never never never never never ever let you go....
Tommy Davidson [Scats]
Josh Now all I want is a barbecue.
Tracy With somebody on the grill wearing socks in sandals, so. That's how you know the ribs...
Tommy Davidson And you hear me you hear me? That's the Yeah. Yep.
Tracy Gotta have that. OK. [Music] Let me focus! You are too fun a distraction. So! Front Street is a game that we like to play with our guests towards the end, where we have a series of questions. Right? Nothing too scary. They'll start off kind of easy, then we'll turn up the heat just a little bit. If you would like to pass, you get one pass. [TD: OK. OK.] And the way to do that is to say the words Taylor Swift.
Tommy Davidson That's how I pass?
Josh Yeah, It means you get to be excluded from this narrative. [They all laugh]
Tracy OK.
Tommy Davidson I Love it.
Tracy So we put a little spin on it. We're gonna do cast superlatives, right? You all went to In Living Color High School and its senior year, you graduate and in this yearbook, who is voted most likely to become president of the United State?
Tommy Davidson Ummm Jim, cause he white. Go ahead.
Josh Who's most likely to win an EGOT?
Tommy Davidson What is that?
Josh It's like when you win Emmy, Grammy, Oscar, Tony.
Tommy Davidson Oh yeah? Um, Kim Wayans. [Josh & Tracy: MMM!]
Tracy I love that answer. I'm obsessed with Kim Wayans.
Josh Me too.
Tommy Davidson She has a heart that you can't imagine, man.
Tracy Mm. She's definitely one my favorite Black comedic actresses. We don't get enough shine.
Josh But you ain't heard that from me.
Tommy Davidson You ain't heard that from me! [Tracy laughs]
Tracy Right! Right. I ain't one to gossip.
Tommy Davidson Yeah.
Tracy Most likely to be on a reality show.
Tommy Davidson Ah...Me.
Tracy [Josh and Tracy laugh] Ooo! I can't wait. Can't wait.
Josh Most likely to get thrown out of a bar.
Tommy Davidson Umm...Well, was me. Ok. [All laugh]
Tracy Honestly same.
Tommy Davidson --Ah probably ah Jamie. [Tracy: Indistinct overlapping 42:04-06] [Josh: Mm]
Tracy Mmm! I can see it. I can see it. Most changed from freshman year to the end of the show. Who changed the most?
Tommy Davidson Me.
Josh & Tracy Awww.
Josh Most likely to go fight someone in real life because they got in a fight on Twitter. [Tracy: Oo!] [TD: Ah...] Like, turn the location on. [Tracy laughs]
Tommy Davidson Ah, Marlon Wayans. [Josh laughs]
Tracy Mm. I love it.
Tommy Davidson And and their--their older brother, Dwayne. [Josh: Mhm.] And their sister, Elvira.
Tracy So all of the Wayans.
Tommy Davidson No, those three.
Tracy Just those three specifically. OK!
Tommy Davidson They'll come to get yo ass.
Tracy We should write that down and remember. [Pen tapping on table] Because I need to know who to not cross. [Music]
Tracy Do you want to know who we voted most likely to sit down with us and absolutely brighten our day?
Tommy Davidson Yeah! Jamie Foxx.
Tracy You! [All laugh] [Clapping] No, it's you!
Tommy Davidson Thank you, guys. That's that's really nice.
Tracy Um--
Josh --But before we go, though, I want to let everyone know, like what you're working on next, where they can find you, what your social media [TD: Mhm] is, that sort of thing.
Tommy Davidson OK. Therealtommycat, that's IG all the time. Um, I'm working--I launched a new company which iss called One Song. [Josh: Mm]. So when I go to do [Tapping] my talk show, just consider doing a network show with me. You two.
Tracy Uhhh....Did you just offer us a job?!
Josh In this economy?!
Tommy Davidson No, I'm just I'm just saying. I'm just saying.
Tracy Uh huh.
Tommy Davidson I-I ain't no fool. It's a great match.
Josh Awwww!
Tracy What!? I--
Tommy Davidson So I know I know what I know what I see. [Tracy: Mhm.]
Josh 'm sendin a...audio clip of you saying that to my boss, as soon as we log-- [Tracy laughs and claps]
Tracy And put my name on that, too, please. Put my name in that e-mail.
Tommy Davidson Write that on your heart, and roll with it. Ashford and Simpson. [Josh Laughs]
Tracy Wait, who is who? [Josh and Tracy laugh]
Tommy Davidson Ya'll gotta figure that out.
Josh Okay!
Tracy Oh! It's a fight to the death.
Josh I appreciate it.
Tommy Davidson Love you guys.
Tracy Alright...
Josh Love you, too--
Tracy --Love you, too. Thank you so much.
Tommy Davidson Alright. We'll talk soon.
Tracy Bye!
Josh Bye.
Tommy Davidson Bye. [Music fades up]
[MUSIC, Fades Out]
44:00
[MUSIC - Learn Something From This bounce Remix]
Josh At the end of every episode, we like to take a moment to channel the spirit of Tyra Banks and take her advice. In this segment, "Learn something from this," Tracy and I reflect on what stood out to us today.
Josh So Tracy.
Tracy Yeah.
Josh What did we--
[CLIP] Tyra LEARN from this?
Tracy Hm! I learned that none of our favorite shows would exist without In Living Color.
Josh Literally, that.
Tracy I didn't know how much I was going to learn about like, the show. And like, its, um, significance as like an institution...Cause I'm just like, 'Oh, I've watched it since it came on. I know everything.' [Josh: Mhm] I did not know that. I did not realize, like, how far its reach is. And like, it's still happening.
Josh Another thing that all of this has made me think about is the way in which Black entertainment can come in waves and be made into a fad. Greg Braxton a staff writer at the L.A. Times and he wrote this article that says TV networks pledged to improve diversity in 1999. Will this time be any different? In Living Color was on the cutting edge, one of the first of this wave of Black television that all of us always look back to so fondly-- the UPN, era. [Tracy: Mhm] And I think now, given the uprisings and the reckonings, people are feeling a similar sort of pressure. [Tracy: Mm] And I'm wondering if it can be sustained and how long it can be sustained.
Tracy Yeah, I feel you.
Josh You Know?
Tracy I feel like if history is any indicator, I think that this is just kinda like the way that change happens over like a really long period of time. [Josh: Mhm] You know, like, there is something not great that happens. [Josh: Mhm.] And then that thing can result in more opportunities for the unfortunate recipients of like whatever the thing was that happened. Whenever ground is gained, pushback will be given. [Josh: Mhm] And I think that gaining ground a lot of times looks like more Black shows on TV. It looks like more Black movies being greenlit. And then there's a backlash, which looks like, 'OK, where did all the Black shows go that were on TV?' You know, like, What-what happened there? I think it's just kinda how it happens. Like each time there is a push, black people are a little more normalized in like TV [Josh: Mhm] and movies. And then, like, we revert a little bit and then we push further [Josh: Mhm] and then we become a little more normalized. So it's like bit by bit, by precious little bit, [Josh: Mhm] like we're getting there, but shit, evolution takes a long-ass time, like hundreds of thousands of years and shit. Another thing that, I don't know if it's something that I've learned, but a thing that this is really underscoring for me is how important creative control is. [Josh: OK!] Ownership of the things that you give birth to and you create...Like, In Living Color, like you said, it would not have been what it was if Keenen himself did not have creative control on this. And it’s wild, because he kinda had creative control because like, uh, this is an era where, like HBO was new and Fox was kind of like figuring itself out. So it's not that they didn't care, [Josh: Mhm. Mhm.] but they kind of didn't care. And they were kind of like, you know, we'll just do this thing and see what happens. And I know that Keenen described himself as like a dictator, like, both [Josh; Mhm] on set and like in business meetings. And the way that he just insisted on being himself, and doing the type of comedy that he wanted to do, even when he was making stuff that wasn't great, you know, [Josh: Mhm] things that did not age well at all. [Josh: Mhm] Stuff was like really, really hurtful. I think that within that, there's a story of insisting that you be the expert on the thing that you create and that you reap the benefits--
Josh --Tyler Perry.
Tracy --of the thing that you create Tyler Perry! Tyler Perry, ya'll. So Black people need to own stuff.
Josh They really do.
Tracy [Laughin] We really, really do. Also, we need to be--if we don't own shit, we need to be like in the rooms with the people who do own shit [Josh: mhm] because it is 20 damn 20. Solange said we need a seat at the the table, and damn it! I dare ya to look at Solange and say 'No.'
CREDITS 47:34
[Outro Music]
Tracy Josh guess what?!
Josh What happened?
Tracy [Sing-song] You just completed your second podcast on the other side [Snapping] of the microphone instead [Josh: AYYY!] of being in the production place. Uh..duh duh duh. [Josh laughs] You're doing great. I'm so proud of you. Back Issue is a production of Pineapple Street Studios.
Josh Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Burman, Max Linsky.
Tracy Yours truly, Tracy, the Clayton.
Josh And me, Josh, thee Gwynn. [Tracy laughs] Our editor is Emanuel Hapsis. Our managing producer is John Asante. Our senior editor is Leila Day.
Tracy Our lead producer is Josh Gwynn, who might you know.
Josh That's me! [Tracy laughs]
Josh Our associate producer is Alexis Moore.
Tracy This show features music by the one and only, DJ Don Will. You can follow him at DJ Don Will on the socials and you can follow me on the socials @brokeymcpoverty spelled just like it sounds and twice as sad. [They laugh]
Josh And you can follow me @regardingjosh on all the socials. Subscribe to this podcast wherever free podcasts are sold.
Tracy I’m so proud of us. We did a thing and...let's---
Josh We did it!
Tracy --And let's do another thing next week!
Josh OK, that sounds like fun.
Tracy Okay, bye!
Josh Bye! [Music rises before fadeout]