BACK ISSUE
THAT TIME WE SAT THERE AND ATE OUR FOOD
Grab your sporks and your doggy bags! This week, Josh and Tracy dig in and dig deep about their mutual love of food and its way of connecting people, places, and stories. Joining them, founder of Herb ‘N’ Cooking and Food Network "Chopped" finalist Chef Mustapha Abdul-Rahiim breaks down food’s ability to socialize us and its inherent connection to memory.
Episode Transcription
William Travis: My name is William Travis Clayton. I am 46 years old. I am Tracy Clayton's big brother and she is my little big sister.
[Music starts playing]
Tracy: What's your earliest memory of eating a bowl of chili?
William Travis: My earliest memory, I believe it was either my mother or my grandmother. I had to be a little fella and I was gonna eat whatever they put in front of me. In our house, meat, beans, onions, the chili soupiness and noodles. We absolutely have, as far as I can remember, always had spaghetti noodles in our chili.
Tracy: Tell me about the way that you eat chili.
William Travis: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I was on an adventure at my favorite brother cousin's house, rest in peace, Tyrone Antoine Clayton.
Tracy: RIP.
William Travis: My Aunt Connie had fixed chili and they were grabbing the sugar and putting it in there, and I was like, "Bro, what're you doing?"
Tracy: (laughs)
William Travis: And he said, "Man, don't do it, if you do it, you'll never eat chili the same." (laughs)
Tracy: (laughs)
William Travis: And I did it. I will only enjoy it with the cheese and the sugar.
Tracy: What does the sugar do to the chili that made it so memorable for you?
William Travis: It was just totally different. It was like a different chili experience, like, it's this thing that replaced all other chilies in my life.
Tracy: (laughs)
William Travis: It was like, falling in love and forgetting all your other little puppy loves and stuff.
Tracy: (laughs)
William Travis: And one thing I really notice is when you add the sugar to it the chili gets really dark, wanting to be, you know, fit in, I'm gonna try it, but I mean, he- he told me, like, several times, "Don't do it, you'll never eat it regular again."
Tracy: You can't replicate our mama's chili. Do you still make chili at home for the family?
William Travis: Oh, yeah, yeah. I- I mean, it gives me a chance with my arch nemesis, AKA my 11 year old daughter-
Tracy: (laughs)
William Travis: --to do something together and it's something that she likes to do.
Tracy: When you eat a bowl of our mama's chili with cheese and sugar, what does it remind you of?
William Travis: I think just childhood, really, like and not just her chili, just, you know, having my mom cook for me and, you know, she was, it's like being nurtured and like being cared for and she's not just gonna fix me chili, she's gonna sit down next to me and talk to me. She might even like-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
William Travis: --pat my head and rub my back (laughs) and she'll make it for me by the gallon. And she looks forward to it-
Tracy: Yeah.
William Travis: --every year. I go to visit, "You wanna make some chili? I'll make you some chili?" And I'm like-
Tracy: Yep. Yep.
William Travis: "What're you waiting on, let's get it." (laughs)
Tracy: (laughs)
William Travis: Honestly, chili is love. She puts love into it and I love eating it.
[CLIP] Voice: Beyonce? You look like Luther Vandross.
[CLIP] Voice: Ho, but make it fashion.
[CLIP] Voice: But you ain't heard that from me.
[CLIP] Voice: Fierce
[CLIP] Voice: Call ‘em
[CLIP] Voice: You see, when you do clownery--
[CLIP] Voice: ‘Cuz we won’t stop.
[CLIP] Voice: Can’t get no sleep ‘cuz of y’all--
[CLIP] Voice: the clown comes back to bite.
[CLIP] Voice: Y’all not gonna get no sleep cause of me.
[CLIP] Voice: It's Britney, bitch.
[CLIP] Voice: [Voices overlapping] We were rooting for you, Tiffany. We were all rooting for you… [overlapping voices crescendo]
Tracy: Who said that?
[Intro music starts]
Josh: Welcome to Back Issue.
Tracy: A weekly podcast that revisits formative things, people and moments that we miss, and that changed us.
Josh: This week, do you want it in your collard greens?
Tracy: Probably.
Josh: Do you want it in your candy sweets?
Tracy: Yeah, it would probably enhance them.
Josh: Do you want it in your rice and gravy?
Tracy: My anaconda do!
Josh: This week, food.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative), I eat that.
[CLIP] Speaker: Gimme pizza -- p-i-z-z-a!
[CLIP] Speaker: What is Patti saying over there? (laughter) She's causing trouble! What makes you think I could eat the paper, boo? (laughter)
[CLIP] Speaker: I smell like beef.
[CLIP] Speaker: It’s an avocado. Thanks.
[CLIP] Speaker: It’s gonna be bussin' bussin', bussin' bussin'.
Tracy: Each week, we'll go back into the past and revisit unforgettable moments we all think we remember-
Josh: And learn what they can teach us about where we are now.
Tracy: I'm Tracy Clayton, and I am hungry.
Josh: And I'm Josh Gwynn, and I'm a sommeli-hey.
Tracy: (laughs)
Josh: Hey, Trace.
Tracy: Hi.
Josh: How you doing?
Tracy: I'm hungry, how are you?
Josh: (laughs) super hungry, and now that I heard about this chili with the noodles, I need an explanation and I also need a sample.
Tracy: So the sample has to come from my mother, because you don't want it to come from me.
Josh: (laughs)
Tracy: I have a good idea.
Josh: What's that?
Tracy: Today let's just talk to a bunch of people about their favorite foods.
Josh: I am 100% on board, let's do it.
Tracy: I'm ready. So we already talked to my brother Travis, shout out to him.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative). Shout out.
Tracy: But I want to talk to some other people through the episode and just wax poetic about food, right?
Josh: And recipes, I love hearing people who are like foodies talk about food. Ugh.
Tracy: And do you know who the perfect person for that is?
Josh: Who?
Tracy: Chef Moustafa Abdul Raheem. He's a chef, he's generally just a wonderful person with great ideas, and he's been on Chopped.
Josh: Yo. Goals. Like I love that show. (laughs)
Tracy: Goals for one of us, I would die.
Josh: (laughs)
Tracy: On Chopped, you hear me?
Josh: Ah, I love him so much.
Tracy: But he's classically trained, and I think he's gonna have a lot of really great things to say when it comes to food and how it ties into nostalgia and memories.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative), I'm excited, let's go.
Tracy: Let's do it.
[Music starts playing]
Josh: There are few things in this world that I think about as much as I think about food.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: Whenever I travel to a new city it's the way that I get to know a city.
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: It's like really important to me, it's really central to a lot of the relationships that I have and that I build, I think.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). It is not true for me though, not as much. Like I have my spots of like food nostalgia, but for the most part, like, I was like, is there gonna be food there? Is it all fish?
Josh: Ah!
Tracy: If not, I'll be there.
Josh: I'll be there. (laughs)
Tracy: I'll (laughs) You know? Like I'll show up with a pitcher of something to get everybody nice and tipsy.
Josh: Uh huh.
Tracy: If that is what the vibe is.
Josh: Okay.
Tracy: We'll all show up with some tea or some ice water.
Josh: Ice water.
Tracy: There is an art to ice water.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative). The good ice.
Tracy: I just want the product, you know? I just want to get there, like in therapy it's just like, "Well, you know, it's the journey, it's not the destination." That's wrong, that's a lie and that's bullshit.
Josh: It's the journey.
Tracy: It's not true.
Josh: I think it is true!
Tracy: It's the destination and I want to get there, you know?
Josh: See, I love the journey. I love, like I see a recipe and it's like this is a three day project. I'm like, "Sign me up!"
Tracy: What?
Josh: Let's go! I love watching one thing become another thing.
Tracy: Uh huh.
Josh: I also think that there's this meditative, like-
Tracy: I get it. I just, [crosstalk] just not mwah.
Josh: (laughs)
Josh: Would you say that you're a good cook?
Tracy: I think the fact that I can cook but do not cook-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: --makes the question of whether or not I cook my second most hated question to be asked.
Josh: Wait, what's your first?
Tracy: How are you?
Josh: (laughs)
Tracy: (laughs) 'Cause then I gotta think about it, shit, how am I today? I don't know, it changes all the time. I'm stressed out, do you need to know that? Maybe I keep this part to myself.
Josh: Right.
Tracy: So I just be like, "I'm here."
Josh: Right.
Tracy: Second worst is, "Do you cook?" Because there's so many assumptions that come behind that question.
Josh: Yeah, I know what you mean. You know what, I have an idea.
Tracy: What?
Josh: You know how you talk to your brother already?
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: Sibling swap, you should talk to my sister.
Tracy: Oh, it's a sibling show!
Josh: (laughs) About this exact thing! She does not suffer fools. She does not cook, and she doesn't make decisions based on societal pressure.
Tracy: (laughs)
Josh: She does not do any of those things.
Tracy: I love it.
Josh: Like I remember every holiday, I'd be in the kitchen with my aunts cooking and like getting food together, and she'd be in there watching sports with my dad.
Tracy: (laughs)
Josh: (laughs)
Tracy: She's a, "Y'all know why I'm here."
Josh: (laughs) When's the food?
Tracy: (laughs)
Josh: So maybe she can help you with how you're feeling a little bit unsettled around that question?
Tracy: It sounds like she's the perfect person to help me with this.
[Phone dial and ringing sound]
Tracy: Hey, Maya!
Maya: Hey, how are you?
Tracy: I'm good, how are you?
Tracy: I am so glad to talk to you, because I'm having some anxiety around a trait that I understand that we both share.
Maya: Okay.
Tracy: I don't cook, and you also do not cook, right?
Maya: No, no, ma'am.
Tracy: Why do you not cook?
Maya: I don't like to.
Tracy: Full stop, okay.
Maya: (laughs) Yeah.
Tracy: I mean that's- that's reason enough not to do anything, honestly.
Maya: Who's pressuring you to cook? Who- like who's asking you these questions?
Tracy: Ah, so I think the pressure that I feel is like me projecting my feelings of inadequacy onto myself.
Maya: Okay.
Tracy: Because I'm a woman-
Maya: Mm- hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: A black woman.
Maya: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: And I'm from the south, and people just expect that we are these like domestic mavens and goddesses.
Maya: Yep.
Tracy: And I knew from very early on that that was not my particular calling or ministry in life.
Maya: No.
Tracy: And so I think also when I moved up north, and people, you know, like they would hear my accent, "Oh my gosh, where are you from? Oh, so you can really cook, huh? Oh, so you can fry up some chicken, huh?" And I'm just like, sorry to disappoint you, stranger, but also why do I care about you being disappointed?
Maya: (laughs), yeah.
Tracy: You know?
Maya: I don't know you.
Tracy: Yeah.
Maya: I can see that though, like the stereotypes of what we think about women from the south.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Maya: Yeah, or just like from black people, like when I worked at an after school program, one of my best friends was like this 45 year old white woman, who's the lunch lady there.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Maya: And it was so much fun, like we would just like talk shit all day, and then one day she was like, "Your mom's going to have to make me gumbo." And I was like, "Whoa, Cathy. Like chill."
Tracy: (laughs)
Maya: Chill. (laughs)
Tracy: Well first of all, that's my momma. She don't have to do nothin' but stay black and die.
Maya: Yeah, but she's like, "I make you tacos and stuff every day." I'm like, "Okay, okay, I can see where you're coming from then."
Tracy: (laughs)
Maya: Like a food exchange, but like you can't assume that my mom knows how to make gumbo.
Tracy: Right?
Maya: And she's like, "Does she?" I'm like, "Yes, but don't assume that."
Tracy: But that's not the point. (laughs)
Maya: (laughs) yeah. Yeah.
Tracy: Sorry, Cathy. sorry to disappoint you.
Maya: Yeah.
Tracy: I'm both mad that I'm just now like exploring this topic, because it really does like cause me so much anxiety, when somebody asks if I cook. Especially if it's a man that's asking.
Maya: Oh yeah. Because you know what they mean.
Tracy: Tell me about the time or the moment when you decided that the pressure isn't gonna like bully you around anymore. When did it become easier for you to just be like, "Nope, I don't cook"?
Maya: I think just focusing on other- other stuff that I do.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Maya: All the other good stuff.
Tracy: I have decided I'm gonna commit to unlearning all the things that make me ashamed to say, "No, don't cook, full stop." But I feel like it's so ingrained in me it might take a while.
Maya: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: Do you have any advice, any pointers, any mantras, if you will?
Maya: Yes, say, " No, I don't cook, I have a Webby." (laughs).
Tracy: (laughs) Ooooh, flex on them.
Maya: Yes.
Tracy: I gotta practice.
Maya: No, I don't cook, do you know who I am?
Tracy: (laughs) This has been so helpful, thank you so much.
Maya: Oh, good.
Tracy: I'm giving a middle finger to all the gender norms.
Maya: Oh, hell yeah.
Josh: How did the talk with my sister go, Trace?
Tracy: It went really, really well. I feel like I've got a good foundation to start making some changes, you know--
Josh: Okay.
Tracy: It's going to be a commitment, it's gonna require some energy to unlearn all of the toxicity around cooking and not being ashamed of the fact that I do not cook. You know, it's- it's gonna be a process. It's gonna be a commitment.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative). It's gonna be a journey.
Tracy: You know I don't like journeys, but-
Josh: (laughs)
Tracy: (laughs) Unfortunately, yes.
Josh: But I get it. I get it. I- I think our relationships to food are tied to so many things, right?
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: Like they're tied to our social occasion, it's tied to how we think about gender, and I think we're all really just figuring it out.
Tracy: Seriously.
Josh: But one thing I think we can both agree on.
Tracy: What?
Josh: Even if you don't want to cook another day in your life-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: I know you love a snack.
Tracy: I love a snack.
Josh: (laughs)
Tracy: Several snacks, even, if the day's right!
Josh: (laughs) So let's marinate on that, the perfect snack, after we come back.
Tracy: Okay, all right.
Josh: But first, let's hear from our friend, Kat. Bars.
Tracy: I didn't know that Nicki Minaj ghost wrote this episode.
Josh: (laughs)
Tracy: (laughs)
Kat: The perfect snack to me is crunchy and salty and fatty and funky all at once. So like a Triscuit with butter and an anchovy, or like a Ruffles potato chip, like a salad chip, with sour cream and fish roe, smoked trout salad, which I personally make with celery, red onion, lots of lemon, mayo and greek yogurt, and you spread it on a Ritz, or a Triscuit. I love Triscuits. But (laughs) actually maybe I just love fish as a snack. I think fish is a great snack. Normally I'm snacking on fish.
[Back issue theme song break]
Tracy: And we're back!
Josh: Eowwwww.
Tracy: So, I have an amazing talent that I've been working on, which is spinning something that I perceive as negative into something good.
Josh: Okay.
Tracy: Want to watch me do it real quick?
Josh: Yes, I do.
Tracy: Since I did not cook, I got really invested in snacks.
Josh: Oh, I love snacks.
Tracy: My snack game is on point
Josh: I think my favorite snack is like, a chip, a good chip.
Tracy: I, look, listen. The person with whom I spend the most time in this city, has the worst snacks, never a potato chip.
Josh: (gasps).
Tracy: I be like, you got some snacks? He be like, there's some almonds in there, and I was like, "Do you have a snack? 'Cause an almond is not a snack." Fruit? NO\ot a snack. It's not. But yeah I tend to crave like textures more so than flavors-
Josh: Same! Sometimes, I'm just like, I need a crunch, you know?
Tracy: Sometimes you just need nachos.
[Organ music starts playing]
Josh: Love nachos!
Tracy: Oh my gosh. A moment for nachos please. They just so cheesy and so crunchy, crunchy-
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: But yeah I think that when it comes to like, food nostalgia and thing that I miss, a lot of it is snacks.
Josh: Mmm.
Tracy: You know?
Josh: Mmm.
Tracy: Because I just, I just remember a time so clearly, when the thing that my friends and me used to do was just walk around the corner to the corner store.
Josh: Mmm.
Tracy: And then later to Walgreens when we got a Walgreens, and just- just buy all of the snacks.
Josh: Snack run! Yeah.
Tracy: Oh my gosh, my favorite for a long time, my favorite until it went away actually.
Josh: Mmm.
Tracy: Clearly Canadian.
Josh: Yo!
Tracy: Remember that? The flavors though!
Josh: The flavor, the flavor but also the bottle looked rich as fuck. Like, you do- you felt like so special, (laughs).
Tracy: I felt expensive. Yes!
Josh: Drinking the Clearly Canadian.
Tracy: Exactly, I was like, I own 51 percent of this playground.
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: (laughs). I tell you what else was good though?
Josh: Okay.
Tracy: Crystal Pepsi! I will die on this hill, I will die on this hill-
Josh: Alone!
Tracy: I will die in this hill
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: (laughs).
Tracy: Born alone, die alone.
Josh: Cola shouldn't be clear!
Tracy: Okay but that's what made it so neat though! It was so different.
Josh: Ew, I don't like- things should look like how they look, when I consume them.
Tracy: Okay, I understand, but the thing is, that's what all cola looks like, until they put the food coloring in it, which they put in it to hide like, impurities and stuff, or at least they used to.
Josh: So Cola is actually clear?
Tracy: Yes.
Josh: Wow.
Tracy: I'm a scientist, but don't quote me on that, 'cause I don't know.
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: (laughs).
Josh: Remember Snackwell?
Tracy: Snackwells, yeah that was a confusing time in my household when my mom went on a diet and the only sweets were Snackwells. Because I had to eat them, but like, they weren't that great, because they were like fat free.
Josh: Like, how was this dry and oily at the same time?
Tracy: I don't think I ever ate a full Snackwell Devil's Food Cookie.
Josh: And that's why you're here today.
Tracy: Exactly, if you've ever eaten a Snackwells cookie, don't worry about what's in the vaccine.
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: (laughs).
Tracy: Don't worry about it, don't worry about it. There were also snacks that like my mom would never let me get.
Josh: Mmm.
Tracy: And so in my head they became white people snacks.
Josh: Okay.
Tracy: Because all the white kids in my school had them, and I was just like, "Man can I, can I have one of your Gushers?" Gushers!
Josh: Wait I love a Gusher! Tracy, how would you describe a Gusher?
Tracy: Okay, Gushers were, and still are because they still make them, right?
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: They are a gem shaped fruit snack, like it looks like- like it's cut like an emerald or something, and in the middle-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: -it's just like ooey-gooey candy juice of some type.
Josh: (laughs) Absolutely five stars.
Tracy: Some form of corn syrup that we should not eat but it's delicious.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: And they're so good-
Josh: So good.
Tracy: And they still go hard to this day-
Josh: Knock-
Tracy: I am known to throw a box of Gushers in the shopping cart.
Josh: Bussin’
Tracy: There's something so satisfying, and again it's about the texture. So those were white people snacks to me, Lunchables for longest time.
Josh: I remember wanting Lunchables so bad.
Tracy: Yes.
Josh: I don't know why I wanted a Lunchable.
Tracy: Because the commercials looked so dope.
Josh: Well a Lunchable is literally just a box of processed food, like-
Tracy: (laughs).
Josh: You get salami, a cracker, maybe something that might've been cheese, and a Snickers.
Tracy: Right.
Josh: And my mama's like, I'm making you food.
Tracy: (laughs).
Tracy: "But mom. Somebody else already did it, you just have to pay all the money for it!" (laughs).
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: So there are few things that I love more than a snack, but, one thing that is up there-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: Theme songs for foods!
Josh: Absolutely!
Tracy: Theme food s- Food song- food theme songs, jingles, I think they're called jingles.
Josh: Jingles? (laughs).
Tracy: (laughs).
Josh: (singing) Plain white rice.
Tracy: (laughs).
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: Such a good episode.
Tracy: I love food theme songs, AKA jingles, so much, I spent a lot of time going down a YouTube rabbit hole, just watching old fast food commercials, and I've learned some very interesting things that I did not previously know.
Josh: Okay.
Tracy: I would love to share this information with you, but I wanna do it in a fun way-
Josh: Okay, okay.
Tracy: Let's do a quiz!
Josh: Okay!
[Game music starts playing]
Tracy: Okay, this game is called, 'You Made That Up!'
Josh: (laughs), okay.
Tracy: Okay, so Josh, here's how it's gonna work.
Josh: Okay.
Tracy: I'm gonna ask you some questions, they will all be multiple choice questions about black commercials: who was in them, who wasn't and so on and so forth-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: I'm gonna read you a question, and I'm gonna give you four multiple choice answers.
Josh: Okay.
Tracy: However-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: The catch is, the answer could be that there is no correct answer, does that make sense?
Josh: Urgh! Yes.
Tracy: So maybe I just completely made it up and everything's wrong, I don't know.
Josh: Sounds about right, okay let's do it.
Tracy: Mu-ha-ha-ha.
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: (laughs).
Tracy: What crooner shook the world when he sang in the back of an empty bus in a coke commercial in 1994?
Josh: Got you.
Tracy: Was it, Tank SisQó from Dru Hill-
Josh: Not SisQó from Dru Hill? (laughs).
Tracy: I mean, the kids, I don't know if they know who SisQó is anyway!
Josh: Okay, fair, fair!
Tracy: Tyrese, or Ginuwine?
Josh: Throw in the towel, the answer is Tyrese.
Tracy: (laughs) Disrespectful. You are right, you are correct.
[Bell sound]
Josh: That was a good commercial.
Tracy: It was a good commercial. I remember all the runs and- and everything.
[CLIP] Tyrese Gibson’s Coca Cola Commercial
Tracy: (singing).
Josh: Okay, Trace!
Tracy: Which living single actress-
Josh: Mmm.
Tracy: Popped up in a Burger King commercial, in 1989? Was it, Queen Latifah-
Josh: Uh, this multiple choice is so (laughs) useless.
Tracy: Kim Coles-
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: (laughs) Erika Alexander, or Kim Fields?
Josh: This is 1989?
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: I don't think it's Sinclair, it could be Erika Alexander because she was Cousin Pam in the 80s.
Tracy: Range, the range.
Josh: I don't think that she was as big of like a household name to where a big company like that would wanna use her to sell food at that point. But, Kim Fields was, because she was like Tooty and like all that stuff.
Tracy: Tooty!
Josh: So it's either between Kim Fields and Queen Latifah, and I just think that like, at that time, Queen Latifah was wearing those hats and-
Tracy: Mmm.
Josh: Talking about like black, Pan-Africanism and stuff-
Tracy: She was on her militant streak-
Josh: Yes so I don't see her being like, “buy this burger”.
Tracy: Mmm.
Josh: I'm gonna say Kim Fields.
Tracy: Finally answer?
Josh: No, because I don't know if Kim Fields was big enough. I'm gonna say Kim Fields.
Tracy: All right. You are incorrect I am sorry to say!
Josh: Oh my God!
Tracy: It's the one and only Kim Coles.
Josh: What?
Tracy: Kim Coles is what we're looking for, I'm pretty sure she was in quite a few commercials.
Josh: So it was like one of her on the come up-
Tracy: Yes.
Josh: Sort of gigs. Okay, that makes sense, I'll take that.
Tracy: I think it's really adorable.
[CLIP] Kim Coles: Mama always says, "When the going gets tough, the tough go shopping!"
Josh: She's like a girl about town.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And I love it because she looks exactly like Sinclair, like her clothes-
Josh: Its very like, "I'm a woman in the 80 and I put my heels in my purse!"
Tracy: Right, and also, "I'm a black woman, so I must reference my mama because she's always said"
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: (laughs).
[CLIP] Kim Coles: Mama also said never talk to strangers.
Josh: Okay, I don't feel that bad for losing that point, that was a good- good for you Kim Coles.
Tracy: Also good question right?
Josh: Okay.
Tracy: Right.
Tracy: All right, here's another one. Which of the following singers was not, was not in a KFC commercial? Anita Baker-
Josh: Anita Baker?
Tracy: Gladys Knight.
Josh: Gladys Knight.
Tracy: Roberta Flack, or Ella Fitzgerald? Three of them were in KFC commercials, one of them was not. Who was not?
Josh: I can't imagine a world where Ella Fitzgerald-
Tracy: (laughs).
Josh: And Anita Baker-
Tracy: Were in KFC commercials, (laughs).
Josh: Were in KFC commercials, so I have- I have to think that, that's a fake question.
Tracy: Okay, all right, is this our final- final answer are we ready to lock that in?
Josh: Honestly I don't remember a lot of KFC commercials before - Remember when Reba was like, they made her the Colonel?
Tracy: No!?
Josh: And she was like in drag? Ooh girl that was silly-
Tracy: I do not remember that and I'm glad I don't.
Josh: (laughs)
[CLIP from Reba’s KFC Commercial]
Josh: Yeah that's my final answer, none of them.
Tracy: All right, you are incorrect.
[Buzzer sound]
Josh: What?
Tracy: So the answer, you look so stressed out, I wish I everybody can see, (laughs).
Josh: Oh my God!
Tracy: The correct answer is Anita Baker, Anita Baker was not in any KFC commercials.
Josh: I mean that makes sense.
Tracy: She was in a Coke commercial.
Josh: Okay.
Tracy: Also her Coke commercials like, I would listen to those full songs, like absolutely.
Josh: I mean, it's Anita Baker.
[CLIP from Anita Baker’s Coke commercial]
Josh: Ella Fitzgerald was in a KFC commercial?!
Tracy: Ella Fitzgerald was in a KFC commercial, so they did this series of commercials where they featured black celebrities, so they would have somebody like, a famous basketball player right?
Josh: Mmm.
Tracy: He shows up and then he's just like, "I play basketball."
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: "That's what I do."
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: "When you do something of a long time, you get really good at it."
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: "Just like KFC, and the Colonel's recipe, blah blah blah."
Josh: Mmm.
Tracy: So that's what Roberta Flack would say-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: That's what Ella Fitzgerald said, and that's what Doctor Jay, maybe said?
Josh: Oh really?
Tracy: Do you wanna see one?
Josh: I need to see one right now.
Tracy: As you wish, here's Ella Fitzgerald in 1983, for KFC.
[CLIP] Ella Fitzgerald: (singing) Do one thing for as long as I have, you get to be the best, like Kentucky Fried Chicken (singing). They cook it up hot and tender like my music-
Josh: Not hot and tender like her music?
Tracy: (laughs), and tender child!
Josh: My mind is blown.
Tracy: Yeah just- just absorb that everyone.
Josh: Blown.
Tracy: I know it's a lot.
Josh: Okay, what's the next question?
Tracy: The first black McDonald's commercial aired in 1979.
Josh: Uh huh (affirmative).
Tracy: What was the plot line of the commercial? A, a group of soul singers fighting over what to get for lunch-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: B, a grumpy grandma who wants breakfast before church, C, a black man impresses his white boss by bringing in McDonald's, or D, a black family around the dinner table at McDonald's catching up for the first time after a busy week. The year again was 1979.
Josh: One of the earliest McDonald's commercials I remember that was for black people was that little boy that gets the job?
Tracy: Calvin?
Josh: Calvin! Let's go with A, because I feel like that's the one I would want to watch.
Tracy: Okay, we're gonna lock it in, you didn't think I made it up?
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: Okay. Another great try, but unfortunately-
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: It's B, a grumpy grandma wants breakfast-
Josh: It's the grandma? I need to see this
Tracy: -before church.
Josh: Can we see it?
[CLIP: McDonald’s commercial]
Josh: Oh my God!
Tracy: It's a full ass Gospel song.
Tracy: Because how do you reach out to black people? Gospel music! (laughs).
Josh: The Lord. Jesus!
[CLIP: McDonald’s commercial]
Josh: You know what I hate? That was a bop-
Tracy: Listen, listen-
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: It's-
Josh: It was kind of good!
Tracy: Its uncomfortable when that happens right? Very uncomfortable-
Josh: I hate it when that happens.
Josh: That was fun.
Tracy: Wasn't it?
Josh: I learned so much! Even though I lost (laughs).
Tracy: (laughs).
Josh: You know something that I always ask when I want to get a feel for somebody? Like, do we vibe?
Tracy: Hmm, I feel like there's a lot of possible answers, so I'm just gonna
Josh: There are but-
Tracy: What is that?
Josh: (laughs), but one of them is, "What would your last meal be if you had it your way?"
Tracy: Like, ever on Earth?
Josh: Ever, on Earth.
Tracy: Ah, this is a mean question.
Josh: What's yours Trace?
Tracy: I don't know! Everything? Is there like a limit? Because like, I want steak, I want chili, I want fried chicken, I want a Frutista Freeze from Taco Bell, which they don't make anymore.
Josh: (laughs) That is so stupid!
Tracy: Um, I know! I know, like I have a whole list. Uh, but the real answer is probably my mama's chili.
Josh: Awe!
Tracy: I know!
Josh: I need this chili!
Tracy: (laughs) Wait, what's your answer?
Josh: Gumbo, because I don't feel like choosing (laughs). It already has everything in it, (laughs).
Tracy: Wow!
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: You cheated, but that's a good answer.
Josh: But you know who didn't cheat?
Tracy: Who?
Josh: My friend Dina, we should listen to her answer the question, "What would your last meal be and then go to break.
Tracy: Okay, I can't wait to hear this answer, you set it up so suspensefully.
Josh: (laughs).
AD BREAK
Dina: If you asked me what I wanted my last meal to be, I would have to say, Kuching Laksa. Which is a dish native to my family's area in Malaysia, Kuching. Kuching Laksa, it's basically a curry noodle soup, essentially, very simply, but it's just so different in that, yes it's creamy, yes it's tangy but it's also been made with these herbs and fibers and leaves that still have a weird texture in the soup. And as I hear myself describing this, I know that doesn't sound very appetizing, but it's actually so addicting. It's like, ground in there with the force, you know, of someone's 'Po-Po' a Po-Po is, um, eternal grandmother in Chinese. The other thing about this dish is that it's so imbued with emotion and memory for me because you wake up at six AM to go to these stalls that Po-Pos set up and it's awesome, and it always comes in these bright neon orange or green bowls. And you're like sitting on this plastic stool, it is just the best. And then what I like to do, immediately get boba milk tea.
Tracy: And we're back, with Back Issue.
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: (laughs).
Josh: Okay Trace-
Tracy: What?
Josh: We've gone through snacks-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: We gone through jingles-
Tracy: Uh-huh (affirmative).
Josh: But now I kind of wanna go back to where we started.
Tracy: With the best chili in the whole wide world?
Josh: Exactly.
Tracy: All right!
Josh: I wanna talk about family recipes.
Tracy: Oh I see!
Josh: I love the way that we pass down history through food. It’s one of the most interesting things, I think, in the world to me.
Tracy: Ah, me too! I love hearing people talk about these vintage recipes and where they came from-
Josh: Me too!
Tracy: And how they got passed down into the family-
Josh: Exactly!
Tracy: So, I thought that we should talk to one of our personal faves.
Josh: Absolutely.
Tracy: Our friend Janelle.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: So she's gonna talk to us about her family recipe for what might be one of the four pillars of black comfort food. You know what that is?
Josh: What?
Tracy: Banana Pudding!
Josh: With the Nilla Wafers?
Tracy: The only kind in the world Cher!
Josh: (laughs).
Jeanelle: There's one recipe in my family that means a lot to me, and there is only one way to make it. It's my granny's really, really simple but uber specific banana pudding. My family actually doesn't get along that well, but it never matters what beef is going on, you will always be fed with family, and so I remember one dramatic summer. My granny showed my family and I how to make banana pudding. Banana pudding should always be made with Nilla Wafers. You see, cookies are the essential part of the recipe and I've seen people experiment with Pepperidge Farm Chest-mint Cookies, with shortbread cookies No. Nilla Wafers are the way to go. The texture is perfect, the vanilla flavor is unmatched and Nilla Wafers are the perfect size for layering your banana slices. The whipped topping should always be made from scratch, get your egg whites, get your whisk, get your sugar, whisk it out for a couple of minutes. Making the whipped topping from scratch, takes it to the next level.
Josh: Urgh! This is so much fun!
Tracy: I know, right?
Josh: I have someone else we should talk to about comfort food.What's your food that takes you back when you're home-sick or sad, and brings you back to when you were little?
Chef Mu: Barbecue sauce.
Tracy: Yes, okay so let's stop right there, because this is somebody who knows his sauce.
Chef Mu: My name is Mustapha Abdul-Rahiim, normally go by Chef Mu. I'm a classically trained Chef from the Culinary Institute of America. I'm from Brooklyn, New York.
Josh: Chef Mu has worked in restaurants all his life. He was a finalist on Chopped!
[CLIP] Chopped Presenter: Four competitors think they have what it takes to be the Chopped champion, let's meet them.
Josh: For those of you who don't know, Chopped is a reality cooking competition, where you're given a basket of random ingredients and you have to make a super fancy dish, that would impress chefs whose jobs are basically to hate things.
Tracy: My nightmare, basically.
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: (laughs).
[CLIP] Chopped Presenter: Chef Mustapha, Chef Rich, which one of you is going to rock the desert round?
Chef Mu: Yours truly.
Chef Rich: This guy.
Chopped Presenter: We'll see.
Josh: He made it to the final too, and what strikes me about his episode is that even in the super stressful, timed, broadcasted environment, he still was looking at the food and seeing his family. Like, remembering where he came from.
[CLIP] Chef Mu: When I look down at my plate, I- I see my family and all the ingredients and all the flavors and all of the love that I learned to get to this point. I see a reflection of myself inside that food.
Tracy: And a lot of what he remembers about how the passion came to be, came from his grandad.
Chef Mu: My grandfather, Herman Alexander.
Josh: His grandfather was a sharecropper and he had this dope barbecue sauce that everyone loved.
Chef Mu: So he would make this barbecue sauce that everybody would go crazy for.
Tracy: So we got into barbecue, family and family recipes, and what food can teach us about where we come from.
Chef Mu: The thick tangy, sweetness, you know, like sweet baby ray style, you know-
Josh: Yeah.
Chef Mu: Like, but-
Tracy: Love sweet baby ray!
Josh: (laughs).
Chef Mu: You would love Hungry Herman's.
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: Um, as soon as you wanna send a bottle over.
Josh: Okay!
Tracy: I am here and I am ready.
Chef Mu: If my- if my cousins find out I'm making you a bottle before them it's gonna be war!
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: Oh! Um, it's not my problem, sorry.
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: (laughs).
Josh: It's just hungry, just hungry over here!
Chef Mu: And my grandfather's barbecue sauce also has its own magic to it, because certain cousins would drink it out the bottle and they couldn't get enough of it. They would shoot it, like, "Oh, my gosh, tell your grandfather to make the sauce!" And then one year, I made my own barbecue sauce, send it to my grandfather, and he was like, "Send me that recipe!" And I was like, "Send me your recipe!"
Tracy: Mmm.
Josh: AH!
Tracy: (laughs).
Chef Mu: So we switched recipes, 'cause he never really paid attention, he uh, always had it down. I gave him my recipe, he loved mine more than his, and I loved his more than mine.
Tracy: Awe.
Josh: Awe.
Chef Mu: So, but the funny thing is, I didn't grow up eating pork, I didn't grow up eating classically barbecued anything, since my mom, you know, she wasn't with that. She grew up with all that stuff, she grew up with all the good ribs and all good barbecues-
Tracy: (laughs).
Josh: (laughs).
Chef Mu: - and den- and denied me-
Tracy: She was like, "No y'all can't have none, y'all can't have none."
Josh: (laughs).
Chef Mu: As- as a chef, as a person who has passion for food and who was trying to go to restaurant school at eight years old, denied a brother and until I was old enough to make my own damn decisions, like 18.
Josh: (laughs).
Chef Mu: And I was like, no damn that! Grandpa get some ribs.
Tracy: (laughs).
Chef Mu: He was like, "You want pork ribs?" I was like, "Fuck yeah! I want pork ribs!"
Tracy: (laughs).
Chef Mu: And I would taste it- his barbecue sauce on a pork rib, and I was like
Tracy: Mmm.
Chef Mu: Looking at my mother and I was like, "You should be ashamed of yourself that I've had to wait this long!"
Tracy: How dare you-
Josh: Wait I got a-
Tracy: I'm calling CPS! (laughs).
Josh: My mom did this too, like, growing up, I did not know what real bacon was, 'cause my mom only ate turkey bacon and-
Chef Mu: Mmm.
Tracy: That's a sin and a shame.
Chef Mu: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: I went to college-
Chef Mu: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: And I was like, why does this bacon look so weird? And I had it and I was just like-
Tracy: Mmm.
Josh: I feel like I've been lied to my entire life.
Chef Mu: You were, (laughs).
Tracy: Oh my gosh.
Josh: I was.
Tracy: I am so sorry, y'all. I'm so sorry.
Josh: What made you want to cook professionally?
Chef Mu: Funny you say that, my entire life was food, is food. So when I was a kid, I would hide under the table and watch my mom cook. And I'd like, you know, creep out my crib and they couldn't find me. I'm under the kitchen table, just peeping, just figuring out what's going on, smelling stuff, looking at stuff. So it was always a passion. When I was about eight, I saw a New York Restaurant school, on TV and I was like, "I'm in New York-"
Josh: Mmm.
Chef Mu: "I wanna work in a restaurant, I go to school now, I should be able to call this up, and g- and go right, skip the middle man."
Tracy: (laughs).
Chef Mu: So I got an application, but for some reason, I knew they would know I was a kid, so I used my mom's name.
Tracy: And you are literally eight years old at the time? This is the cutest story I've ever heard, in my entire life.
Chef Mu: When the package came, my mom was like, "Uh, did you order a New York Restaurant school package?" I was like, "Uh, n- no, yes, maybe, can I go?"
Tracy: (laughs).
Chef Mu: I was like, "I know it's a lot of money but, I'll figure it out." She was like, "Ah, I'm so, so sorry to break this to you, you have to finish regular school before you-" (laughs).
Tracy: Awe!
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: So what happened, between you being a little bitty baby, hiding under a table watching everybody cook, to being eight years old and having a cooking school application sent to the house? Like, what was it that made you want to do it? Was it just watching your people cook?
Chef Mu: My grandfather also, he's like the chef of the family, he- you know, he was the chef of the family?
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: Mmm.
Chef Mu: But he never did anything professional, like all his stuff was for the- for the people. You know, for the- for the house-
Josh: Mmm.
Chef Mu: And everybody loved his food, you know, like-
Tracy: Mmm.
Chef Mu: That's where I get my cooking genes from, you know, that's where I get my passion from.
Josh: Mmm.
Chef Mu: Being around him, I would also like, watch, like everybody loved what Herman did. He lived in Buffalo, so he would grill 24/7, he didn't care what time of the year it was, you know and people love barbecue in the summertime, but they appreciate it in the wintertime.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: Yeah.
Chef Mu: You know, so, he'd be in a blizzard, full parka on in the garage-
Tracy: (laughs).
Josh: (laughs).
Chef Mu: Stepping it up on the grill, bringing out the fresh corn, and the fresh whatever's and it's like- Now- now that's love right there, and that wasn't his main thing. He didn't get paid for that, he was a handyman, carpenter, you know, he did all kinds of stuff with his hands. Cooking was his like, self-passion. So, you know, I grew up with that around me-
Josh: Mmm.
Chef Mu: -and my mom is his daughter, so you know, it was just like-
Josh: Mmm.
Chef Mu: We're direct lineage My mom, though she was -- like, we kind of grew up, like you know most people in the 80s, I didn't have nothing, you know, I’m doing much to have what I got now in the first place, (laughs), but-
Tracy: (laughs).
Chef Mu: Back in the 80s, my mom and dad had three kids, you know, they were trying to be Muslim. They were like you know, li- living different than everybody else because it was like-
Tracy: Mmm.
Josh: Mmm.
Chef Mu: They were tired of whatever names they had been born with, they had thrown those away, cast those away, wanted their own identity. And you know, my mom and dad didn't want us eating pork growing up, so I didn't have that. My mom didn't want us eating red meat because it was quote on quote, bad for us, but also it cost money.
Tracy: Mmm.
Josh: Mmm.
Chef Mu: And she was like, we ain't got it like that, so we gonna be vegetarian and chicken based for the most part. So I grew up eating-
Josh: Mmm.
Chef Mu: -all kinds of food, because my mom was like, American diet's trash for vegetarian food, they have nothing here. But she was like, people in India eat vegetarian food, people in Africa eat vegetarian food, people in South America eat vegetarian food, so let's just make those foods at home and you know, we'll be all right. So I'm eating chickpeas, eating hummus, wheat grass-
Josh: Mmm.
Chef Mu: You know, I'm up in here been falafel, you know, as a kid, you know, and it's like, it was normal to me. People- I'm like, you don't got a falafel at home?
Josh: (laughs). What time period do you think of when you think of like, "Oh, this is when I started learning how to cook"?
Chef Mu: I started learning how to cook, kind of around five. M- my first recipe that I remember, uh, my mama's making potato salad, and she left out that onion, and I went to the fridge and slammed the onion down, and looked at her like, "It was in the fridge."
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: (laughs).
Chef Mu: "How you gonna forget the onion?" And she was like, "First off, how you know what an onion is? Secondly, how the hell you know it's missing?" Like, "Like I know you like, you know, the food and stuff, but damn boy," (laughs).
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: (laughs), you gonna check her in her own kitchen. (laughs), like what you doing?
Josh: When you were young, before you even went to school, what did you see yourself food?
Chef Mu: When I was younger, I wanted to um, I wanted to own my own restaurant. I think one of the first pipe dreams I had was opening a restaurant that incorporated your five senses in a way. So I was like, yeah that be cool, like a revolving sensing, smell, tasty and everything. And then I got older and realized that this sounded impossible to build in New York.
Tracy: (laughs).
Josh: Did you ever dream that you would end up on like, Chopped, was that ever something that you ever thought you would be able to do?
Chef Mu: I thought I would be on, uh, Great Chefs of America first.
Josh: Mmm.
Chef Mu: You know, I thought I'd be hi- I didn't think it'd be reality TV, that would be my debut. I really only wanted to be on um, one show, and that was Hell's Kitchen.
Tracy: Ah, man!
Josh: Really?
Tracy: I'd have fought Gordon Ramsay, I couldn't do.
Chef Mu: Exactly, I wanted to fight him.
Tracy: (laughs).
Josh: (laughs), so I've always loved cooking. I'm like one of the only people I know who's parents are like, "You should go to culinary school." I feel like everyone's parents are usually, like, "Don't do it." Given those environments, what is about food that makes you still want to center your life around it?
Tracy: Food is magic, really, when it comes down to it. Uh, I can change a whole person's everyday with one bite of food.
Josh: Mmm.
Chef Mu: You know, just like stop them in their tracks. No one else can do that with their job. I can create a smile on somebody's face, in one bite of food. From one spoon, I can change your entire perspective. Having a bad day? Your girl left you? Your dude left you this hurts, this hurts, whatever. "Here, try this." Like, "Ooh." Your senses will take over and you'll taste the food. That stops everybody. That's what food does. It's an emotional connection that no one else can really give to you except somebody who's making the food for you.
Josh: Mmm. (affirmative)
Chef Mu: And so, like, that ability to- to create, uh, warmth in somebody, to create a smile in somebody, to, you know, get that energy reciprocated, you know, that You can't put a dollar on that, you know. And so it's that passion for making people happy and knowing that, that's my magic-
Josh: Mmm.
Chef Mu: it will always connect me to food. When it comes to food and how your brain works, there are always those core memories that are trapped in, a certain emotion that you can never unlock until you smell something, you, uh, taste something, you know. Let's say you had an eld er relative that baked a lot. You know, and made certain fresh cookies at a certain time of the day or whatever, certain holiday. When that holiday rolls around and you don't smell those cookies, you be like, "Damn, something's missing. Something- something's not right." And you'll go across them and you, like, "Oh. That smell. What is that?"
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chef Mu: And it could be, like, cinnamon, nutmeg, vanilla. But the right proportions that your grandmother had. Or your auntie had or-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chef Mu: -whatever the spice flavor that's in the air, you walk past that and it's like (TSH). "Oh, I remember when I was eight years old and I was eating these cookies-
Josh: Right.
Chef Mu: -then so-and-so pushed me off the slide and, you know, blah, blah, blah."
Tracy: What is that comfort food that you reach for?
Chef Mu: It's probably mac and cheese.
Tracy: Mmm.
Josh: Ah! A person with taste!
Chef Mu: I'm not one of those people that go all wild and styles with mac n cheese. Like, there's only two versions, and that's either you gonna bake it or you're not. You know, like.
Tracy: Mmm.
Chef Mu: And there are two distinct versions, if you don't bake it, you don't make it the same way, you make baked mac and cheese. I get mad at people who do that, and make-
Josh: Mmm.
Chef Mu: -an unbaked, baked mac and cheese and serve it like that. I say, "No, no, you were supposed to bake this one, this one's supposed to go in the oven."
Josh: You've worked in food for so long, what do you think that you've learned about yourself and the people around you, through the food that you've made?
Chef Mu: I've learned, I can choose to heal people, and I think that's like the biggest, I should be using my element to heal first. Food is always that ability to bring you back to your center of source. And even historically, like, the f- the hunt was always the folklore where the stories were told. So you have that big hunt-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chef Mu: And that big hunt would happen 'cause we're looking at the stars. The stars told us to do X-Y and Z today, we get the big meat, we roast it together, we have the festival-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chef Mu: We eat, we celebrate, we remember, we talk about the past hunts, we talk about what we want to do in the future. It brings us together because that's literally the beating drum.
Josh: Thank you so much for sitting with us, I appreciate it.
Chef Mu: Thank you for having me, it's been a pleasure, it's been really dope.
Josh: Appreciate it.
Tracy: Anytime!
[Learn something from this bounce remix]
Tracy: So Josh-ua
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: I don't know, I have no idea.
Josh: (laughs), what's up Tracy, I can't even be mad at that, but that was funny.
Tracy: (laughs).
Josh: (laughs). There I just got, like, transported to a very specific place.
Tracy: (laughs). It's the- it's the grandmas there, they speaking through me now-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: In the vein and spirit and energy of our Patron Saint, Tyra Banks, did we-
[CLIP] Tyra Banks: Learn something from this!
Josh: I think we did.
Tracy: What did we learn?
Josh: How the taste of something can, like, instantly transport you back to-
Tracy: Uh-huh (affirmative).
Josh: A specific place or remind you of a specific person.
Tracy: Yeah. Yeah.
Josh: I feel like, when I think of food, the first person that I really think about is my grandma.
Tracy: Oh, me too!
Josh: Okay.
Tracy: Granny, a food story, for sure!
Josh: My grandma, before she passed-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: She used to make oyster-dressing and this thing called Cha-Cha.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative) what's that?
Josh: Cha-Cha is like this relish, it's got like cabbage, and onion and vinegar, and then you put it in a mason jar and you let it ferment for a while, and then you put it on everything.
Tracy: Mmm.
Josh: I remember, when she was passing away, maybe like a year or two before she passed away, she was really sick.
Tracy: Mmm.
Josh: And I went over to her house and I could see her body changing, you know?
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: And we both, like, knew what was going on, um, and it was really hard to talk about. My grandma was like, one of the funniest people I've ever met in my entire life.
Tracy: Awe! I wish I could have met her.
Josh: When she got sick, one of the ways that we processed what was happening was like, I went up to her and I was like, "I need you to teach me how to make these things."
Tracy: Mmm.
Josh: And she was like, "Yeah, I'm gonna teach you how to make it," and so, before she died, I was able to figure out how to make Cha-Cha and I like, made some mason jars of it, and sent one of them to her. She gave me the okay, she was like, "Yeah, this is good."
Tracy: Awe! Stamp of approval!
Josh: It was really hard to make too (laughs).
Tracy: It sounds really hard to make (laughs).
Josh: So when we have family get-togethers, especially around holidays, one of those things has to be there.
Tracy: Mmm.
Josh: I feel like the oyster dressing has to be there, otherwise it's like she's not there.
Tracy: Yeah. Awe.
Josh: And it's less about whether I love oyster dressing, I do love oyster dressing-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: It's crazy how food can become not a stand in, I'd rather have my grandmother, you know what I mean?
Tracy: Of course yeah-
Josh: But, it can be like, representative of a peace, it's like an ambassador for someone.
Tracy: Awe, that's beautiful!
Tracy: For me, my nostalgia comes more from, like, the people and the actual gathering, more so than the food?
Josh: Mmm.
Tracy: The thing that makes me feel my granny's absence most, is having somebody else do the prayer before we eat, because that was always-
Josh: Mmm.
Tracy: That was always her job, like, even after she got too old to cook, even after she couldn't be in and out of the kitchen anymore, even when she couldn't stand up, to do the prayer, like we usually do.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: And then even after she had some strokes-
Josh: Mmm.
Tracy: But even then like, she- she would do the prayer. You said something about how you and your granny talked about her passing, by talking about the recipes? Like, "I need you to-"
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: "-learn these recipes."
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: The last thanksgiving that um, we had her, she was gonna do the prayer, and I was just like, I need to record this. You know, like I just had a feeling-
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: I just had a feeling.
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: Um, and she closed her eyes, and she just prayed the most beautiful prayer, like slurred speech and all. And um-
Josh: Mmm.
Tracy: The next thanksgiving, we did okay, until we got to the prayer. Um, because then it was just-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: - it just made it real, somehow. That like, she's not here to do the prayer anymore. What we did have, was my aunt Rita, who, bless her heart and soul, does her best, (laughs).
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: And by that I mean like, she doesn't do a bad job praying, you know like, those are shoes that nobody can fill. I just remembered that I actually do have, like-- there's a food that I miss, a food that makes me think of her, like, in particular.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: Biscuits!
Josh: "Not my mama's biscuits?"
Tracy: " Not my mama biscuits? My mama burn, you give my mama burn, Gina!"
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: (laughs).
[Music starts playing]
Tracy: She had this biscuit bowl, that my aunt Rita calls mama's magic biscuit bowl, look for the book, the children's book coming out soon.
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: And it was this brown ceramic bowl, had nothing in but flour, and as far as I knew, she would reach in with an empty hand, and like, pull out biscuit dough-
Josh: Mmm.
Tracy: -and just put it on a rack and put it in the oven.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: There was no top to this biscuit bowl, the flour was always in there-
Josh: Mmm.
Tracy: And it was just like, free-balling in the- in the cabinets.
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: And in retrospect, I'm just like, who knows how many bugs and spiders we ate?
Josh: Mmm.
Tracy: But, they always came out perfect, and nobody can replicate them. My mom, again, good cook-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: But she don't- she don't have the Tootsie touch-
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: Tootsie's what we call my grandma.
Josh: Mmm.
Tracy: She just don't have it, and I really, really miss those biscuits. One time my mom tried to do them, they came out so hard.
Josh: Ah!
Tracy: (laughs), I was like, "If I hit you in your temple with this, I'd have to take you to the hospital."
Josh: You know, another thing this all brought up for me Trace?
Tracy: What?
Josh: Do you remember that clip that went viral? Of that aunt that was super mad that someone experimented with the mac and cheese on thanksgiving?
[CLIP] Aunty Carmel: Don't experiment on damn thanksgiving! Don't experiment on thanksgiving!
Tracy: I remember it and I felt like she was talking to me even though I knew that she wasn't. I felt so bad!
Josh: There's like a genre of this type of video. There's this other video that was on Tiktok, and it's a convening of the board of aunties.
Tracy: Oh my God!
Josh: Who need to intervene, because one of the younger aunties decided to put shrimp in the potato salad?
Tracy: Thanksgivings over, we're just gonna shut it all down.
Josh: They look so distraught.
[CLIP] Board of Auntie: Okay she said she wasn't putting shrimp in it.
Board of Auntie: Okay.
Board of Auntie: Because she didn't have any.
Board of Auntie: All right.
Board of Auntie: Not because people might not like it?
Board of Auntie: No.
Board of Auntie: But because she doesn't have any?
Board of Auntie: Well that's what she -- that's why it's not in there.
Board of Auntie: Right.
Josh: So just disgusted!
Tracy: (laughs).
Josh: If you had told me that they had found one of the nieces or nephews doing drugs or something-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: The faces would have been no different. Like they were-
Tracy: Mmm.
Josh: They were like intervention! It's always been in my head, that like, you know, you don't play with the classics during special events, but-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: The thing that all of this brought up for me is the reason why you don't.
Tracy: Which is?
Josh: Nostalgia.
Tracy: Ah!
Josh: Right? It's not even just about how it tastes, because you could experiment with something and it could taste better.
Tracy: Uh-huh (Affirmative).
Josh: But it doesn't fill the gap-
Tracy: Right.
Josh: That you were hoping that it would fill because it has to be the thing that it was, you know?
Tracy: Yeah, yes, yes.
Josh: Which is why I think that all these people were mad!
Tracy: I agree! I agree with all that. I also learned that it's fine that I don't cook, you know?
Josh: Yes.
Tracy: There's some unlearning I still have to do because I still have trouble saying the phrase, "I can't cook." Because it's not- it's not true, I can follow a recipe.
Josh: Mmm.
Tracy: But I'm not about to get in your kitchen and throw down. I'm okay with that, why y'all can't be okay with that?
Josh: Mmm.
Tracy: Just 'cause I'm a woman, I gotta be able to cook?
Josh: Mmm.
Tracy: Fuck y'all, when I get married, my husband's cooking for me. Damn!
Josh: Okay!
Tracy: Role reversal. It's like my handshake-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: You know, like I- I'd have a good firm handshake-
Josh: Yo!
Tracy: --to throw people off. What throws people off more than a black girl from the South who don't cook?
Josh: A!
Tracy: And just like that, I am a revolutionary!
Josh: Freedom.
Tracy: Ashay (laughs).
Josh: (laughs). To freedom!
[Clip] Speaker: To freedom!
Tracy: Back Issue is a production of Pineapple Street Studios.
Josh: This show was created, and is hosted by Tracy Clayton.
Tracy: And also by Josh Gwynn too, also, in addition. And plus, Josh Gwynn is our Senior Producer.
Josh: Our Lead Producer is Emmanuel Hapsis, and our Managing Producer is John Asante.
Tracy: Our Senior Editor is Leila Day.
Josh: Our Associate Producers are Alexis Moore, Xandra Ellin, and Briana Garrett. Our Executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky. Our Engineer is Raj Makhija and Davy Sumner. Raj got busy on the original music you heard throughout the episode.
Tracy: And the show also feature music by the one and only Don Will, you can follow him on all the socials, @donwill. Um, you can follow me, if you want to? I would like that, you can follow me @brokeymcpoverty.
Josh: And you can follow me @regardingjosh.
Tracy: Mmm.
Josh: You can subscribe to this podcast, wherever free podcasts are sold. Please leave a review, it really, really does help.
Tracy: Yeah! Give us a rating, give us some reviews?
Josh: But only if it's five stars.
Tracy: Yeah- yeah- yeah, no, if you got something else to say-
Josh: (laughs).
Tracy: Say it somewhere else, please and thank you. Um, and we'll see you next week, for some more nostalgia!
[Music ends]
Tracy: Do you need any, um, taste-testers for your um, cannabis
Josh: (laughs).
Chef Mu: (laughs).
Tracy: -infused cuisine, because I feel like you might need some.
Tracy: And I am here for you!
Chef Mu: Absolutely.
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