BACK ISSUE
That Time Aretha Asked Celine if She Knew Jesus
Glamour. Sass. Unadulterated talent. What makes a diva? Podcast divas of the universe Tracy and Josh go deep in their diva bags and unpack the origins and evolution of divas as well as the politics around diva-dom. They invite Wayne Isaak, former Executive Vice President of Music Programming and Talent for VH1 and Co-Producer of VH1’s Divas Live ’98 and ’99 to explain all things diva, and he gives the tea on what really happened behind the scenes between the ultimate diva/divo acts like Tina Turner, Elton John, Whitney Houston, and Aretha Franklin. Is a diva still a female version of a hustler or has it been reinvented?
[Classical music starts]
Josh: Luxury, glamour, ambience,-
Speaker 1: Diva perfume.
Tracy: Photograph me only from the left. Do not look me directly in the eye. If I don't have every La Croix flavor in my trailer, I will not perform.
Speaker 1: Diva parfum.
Josh: Great gowns. Beautiful gowns.
Speaker 1: Diva parfum.
Josh: Lights. Somebody getting fired. Hey, hey.
Speaker 1: Diva parfum.
Josh: It might be more important for you to go get your luggage.
Speaker 1: Diva Parfum, available at your nearest CVS, K-Mart, or wherever that guy got bathroom polo in that Carrie Underwood song that all black people love about taking the key to the side of some f-boy’s car.
[Classical music ends]
[CLIP] Voice: Beyonce? You look like Luther Vandross.
[CLIP] Voice: Ho, but make it fashion.
[CLIP] Voice: But you ain't heard that from me.
[CLIP] Voice: Fierce
[CLIP] Voice: Call ‘em
[CLIP] Voice: You see, when you do clownery--
[CLIP] Voice: ‘Cuz we won’t stop.
[CLIP] Voice: Can’t get no sleep ‘cuz of y’all--
[CLIP] Voice: the clown comes back to bite.
[CLIP] Voice: Y’all not gonna get no sleep cause of me.
[CLIP] Voice: It's Britney, bitch.
[CLIP] Voice: [Voices overlapping] We were rooting for you, Tiffany. We were all rooting for you… [overlapping voices crescendo]
Tracy: Who said that?
[Intro music starts]
Josh: Welcome to Back Issue.
Tracy: A weekly podcast that revisits formative things, people, and moments that we miss and that changed us
Josh: This week, a female version of a hustler.
Tracy: Oh, [phone starts ringing] pick me, pick me, pick me.
Josh: Tracy.
Tracy: What is a diva? [ding]
Josh: You got it.
[CLIP] Voices: A diva, a diva.
[CLIP] Wendy Williams: I’m here to report that Mariah Carey is a diva.
[CLIP] Voice: VH1 presents Divas Live '99.
Tracy: Each week, we'll go back into the past and revisit unforgettable moments we all think we remember.
Josh: And learn what they can teach us about where we are now.
Tracy: I am Tracy Clayton. True story, when I was in high school, I told boys at the mall that my name was Diva. It's true.
Josh: (laughs) My name has always been Josh Gwynn.
Tracy: And you've always been a diva.
Josh: True, I'll take it.
Tracy: Hey, Josh.
Josh: Hey, Trace.
Tracy: You smell good. Is that that new fragrance, Diva parfum?
Josh: You know it is. I put it on every morning before I shower, which some of y’all out there still aren't doing and more confusingly, telling us that you're not doing it.
Tracy: Bathe the children, wash your legs or just shut up.
Josh: Those are the options. Those are the options. Anyway, we're not here to answer the question of why people out here are so nasty. We're here to answer this question. What is a diva other than the female version of hustler?
Tracy: I bet they wash their legs. The thing that makes this difficult is there so many layers to it, right?
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: I feel like when somebody is a diva, you just know it even though you may not be able to quantify the divaness of their divadom.
Josh: Yeah, I think it's just one of those truths that is self-evident. (laughs)
Tracy: Oh, my God. (laughs)
Josh: So I think we're going to use this episode to tease out that je ne sais quoi, that secret sauce that makes you a diva.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). You know what? I feel like the perfect text that we should dive into for this, VH1 Divas Live.
Josh: Let's go.
Tracy: You have everybody on stage singing their hearts out and also Treach was there, that little one time. I still can't get over it. I cannot.
Josh: What was Treach even doing there?
Tracy: I want to talk to whoever made that decision.
Josh: And we’re going to. I think we should talk to Wayne Isaak. He was the executive vice president of music programming and talent for VH1 from 1998 to 2001 - so responsible for my entire childhood, Tracy - and he produced the original Diva's Live.
Tracy: Oh, my gosh.
Josh: And he can walk us through all of the different choices that they made--
Tracy: Oh, my God.
Josh: --all the different diva politics that happened on stage and behind stage and what Treach was doing there.
Tracy: I need to know. I have questions, I demand answers. I cannot wait for that conversation.
Josh: Do you know what else fits into this idea of Divas Live that I think we should talk about today?
Tracy: What?
Josh: Charity singles.
Tracy: I have mixed feelings about charity singles. They're usually not good.
Josh: They're usually really bad.
Tracy: But they're still exciting because it's literally all of these stars in one physical place.
Josh: And who gets to stand in the middle? Who gets to sing the trickiest riffs? How do the diva politics play out?
Tracy: Right! Is there a big, legal mediation that happens beforehand? They got to fight it out. It just makes me wonder, what does it take to be considered a diva?
Josh: Well, I think we should do what we always do and go back, right?
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: And talk about the roots of the word diva.
Tracy: Webster's defines the word diva as...
Josh: (Laughs) No, baby. That's Keke Palmer. Diva is this word that has roots in Italian and it means female deity or goddess.
[Classical music starts playing]
Tracy: So it still tracks today. It's effectively what it still means.
Josh: Basically the same. Basically the same. It's a term applied to celebrated female opera stars, right? According to this article on the term diva from the Metropolitan Opera, a diva is a goddess or at minimum, a woman infused with divinity. She's a medium, a kind of intermediary between us and the eternal.
Tracy: That is a beautiful definition. I really love the “at minimum, a woman infused with divinity”. She, at least, at the very, very least is infused with the divine.
Josh: Like prerequisite, she's a demigod. (laughs)
Tracy: (laughs) At least. On her worst days, this is who she is.
Josh: Right.
Tracy: But no, that's really perfect because it brings us to where we are today, right? I think that a defining characteristic of a diva is untouchableness. There is this mystique.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: She's not accessible. She's not all on social media like that. You know what? Is she inaccessible because she's superhuman or is she superhuman in part because she's inaccessible?
Josh: I really feel like that inaccessibility is something that's really crucial to it, right?
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: Because the whole point of social media is to make us totally accessible to everyone-
Tracy: Yes.
Josh: --all the time, 24/7.
Tracy: Overexposure.
Josh: You remember that Beyonce spread, the Ivy Park Rodeo one?
Tracy: Yes. With the chaps, with the ass all out. I'm like, "Where am I wearing these to?"
Josh: Oh, and the denim everywhere.
Tracy: Yes.
Josh: In the interview, she talks about this exact thing. She says, "In this business, so much of your life does not belong to you unless you fight for it. I fought to protect my sanity and my privacy because the quality of my life depended on it. A lot of who I am is reserved for people who I love and trust. Those who don't know me and have never met me might interpret that as being closed off. Trust, the reason those folks don't see certain things about me is because my Virgo ass doesn't want them to see it. It's not because it doesn't exist." Right?
Tracy: Mmm! I never knew that Beyonce was my life coach.
Josh: (laughs)
Tracy: I knew it, but now, I know it know it. That is so true. Then also, not only is she protecting her own sanity, but she got kids. She got family. She's got a husband.
Josh: Exactly.
Tracy: So of course, you're going to make her sign all manner of NDAs if you get close to her.
Josh: Right. I'd argue that it's not just her sanity and privacy and quality of life that she's protecting, all of which are super important and you should have regardless of what your job is.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: But I also think it's this mystique, like the stuff of true legends and stars and divas that she's protecting, like that mystery, that distance.
Tracy: Do you think she self-identifies as a diva?
Josh: Hmmm. I think the people that she models herself after are people we consider legends, like the Michaels, and the Princes, and the Stevies,-
Tracy: And the Tinas.
Josh: --and the Tinas. The difference is just that diva is such a gendered word. It's something that we really only use for women. Sometimes, cheekily, they'll call gay men divas. You know what I mean?
Tracy: Right, right.
Josh: But when we're talking about what a diva is, we're really talking about these specific female vocalists.
Tracy: Right. That's what really gets me about the charity single, because a charity single to be successful has to have a good handful of people that would be considered divas there on the stage, right?
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: I would imagine that everybody's personalities are just, or at least everybody's assistants are worrying all the time about how it's going to go down.
Josh: One that comes to my mind is not maybe the most famous charity single, but it's one of my favorite ones. It's called Just Stand Up.
Tracy: Oh, that's your favorite one?
Josh: It's one of my favorite ones.
Tracy: Okay.
Josh: It's because it's such a specific moment in time. It's so 2008.
[CLIP from Just Stand Up]
Tracy: You all go look at the video and look at the belts. I know at least Leona Lewis had a 2000s ass belt. It's amazing. Sorry, go ahead.
Josh: We could call it a super group if we want. It might be a strong word, but it is a collective.
Tracy: Yes, more accurate.
Josh: A collective. It includes Beyonce, Rihanna, Mariah Carey, Miley Cyrus, Fergie, Carrie Underwood, Nicole Scherzinger, Mary J. Blige, Leona Lewis, Keyshia Cole, Natasha Bedingfield, Ciara, and Ashanti.
Tracy: And Treach from Naughty by Nature.
Josh: (laughs)
Tracy: Treach wasn't there. He was busy.
Josh: They called him. He wanted too much.
Tracy: (Laughs) Why is this one of your favorites?
Josh: Because it is the perfect example of the diva politics playing out.
Tracy: Uh-huh (affirmative).
Josh: The song starts with who the song should start with, Beyonce, right?
Tracy: Of course, naturally.
[CLIP from Just Stand Up]
Josh: She's probably the most relevant at this moment in time.
Tracy: She's also front and center on the stage, like directly.
Josh: She's booked and busy. This is when she's shooting Cadillac Records. You can tell because she ran straight over in her Etta James wig.
Tracy: (laughs) It looks great.
Josh: It looks amazing. It looks really good, but it's such a specific moment in time.
Tracy: You know what year it is when you see that wig.
Josh: Right. So you have Beyonce sitting in the middle like it’s a solar system. I’m giving you Neil deGrasse Tyson.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: You have the most shining, brightest stars in the middle.
Tracy: The sun is in the middle.
Josh: Exactly! And gravity starts to decrease all the way until you get to Natasha Bedingfield. Then you look at the lines that people are given. Beyonce's given the first line. You got Miley Cyrus who's not yet twerked on Robin Thicke.
Tracy: Lord have mercy.
Josh: She's still Can't Be Tamed Miley Cyrus.
Tracy: Her voice was still very grating. Can I say that?
Josh: Very young.
Tracy: (singing)
[CLIP from Just Stand Up]
Josh: But she's trading lines with Rihanna, right?
Tracy: Which I don't understand. I don't understand. I don't understand.
Josh: It's really strange.
Tracy: Does that make sense? Were they on equal footing back then? It was Miley had more words to sing than Rihanna did? I just feel like that's... I'm confusion.
Josh: It's strange, but then you have the bridge and the key change and that's when Mary J. Blige and Mariah Carey are like, "This is what I was here to do."
Tracy: Right. And Mariah pacifically does the modulation where it goes up.
Josh: Exactly.
[CLIP from Just Stand Up]
Josh: And then you have Fergie at the end, they just give her a little rap because
[CLIP from Just Stand Up]
Josh: You also get the moments of people who are like, "You know what? If she had had a little bit extra support, she would have been huge." Leona Lewis sounds amazing!
Tracy: She really did sound great. Absolutely. Speaking of charity singles, we cannot talk about charity singles without talking about this song, but it makes me wonder if that happened on, We Are The World. Remember We Are The World?
Josh: Of course. (Laughs)
Tracy: (Laughs) Hey guys, you heard of this song? It's called We Are The World.
[CLIP] Voice: For many of us watching that night, part of the thrill was seeing so many diverse artists working together so compatibly. How often have any of us had a chance to see genuine legends like Ray Charles, Bob Dylan, Michael Jackson, Lionel Richie, Diana Ross, Tina Turner, Bruce Springsteen, Willie Nelson, and so many more all in the same room, sharing harmonies, telling jokes, and even shedding tears.
Tracy: How did they get all of these huge superstars in one place?
Josh: It's a logistical nightmare. I don't know how they do it.
Tracy: I have never stood back and really considered what a feat that is. Can you see that happening today?
Josh: Could you see Cardi, Doja Cat, Tinashe, and Offset in a choir standing together?
Tracy: No. No. With the big old headphones, just bobbing it out, absolutely not. Beyonce would not be there because Blue would not let her go even if she wanted to.
Josh: (laughs)
Tracy: Also, she would not want to because he's Beyonce. Mariah would have the only bedazzled mic stand. That would be an issue.
Josh: Do you think Joseline would do it?
[CLIP from Joseline cabaret]
Josh: Welcome to Jocelyn's cabaret.
Tracy: You know what? I hate this, and also, I bet she would destroy it.
Josh: She absolutely would.
[Music break]
Josh: Charity singles tell us so much to get to all of these things that we've been talking about like diva politics and accessibility, but the text that I think that we should talk about next:
Tracy: Bars!
Josh: --is Divas Live.
Tracy: Oh, I'm ready.
Josh: Let's do it. After the break.
Tracy: So Josh,-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: --for the uninitiated, can you explain what Divas Live is?
Josh: I thought you'd never ask.
Tracy: (laughs)
Josh: I feel like my entire life has been waiting for this moment.
Tracy: Spotlight please.
Josh: So back in 1998, some folks over at VH1 thought, "How can we raise money for the Save The Music Foundation while giving the gays everything they want?"
Tracy: (laughs)
Josh: And that's VH1's Divas Live was born. It was must-see TV. This was before TiVo.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: Everyone sat their asses in a chair to watch this.
Tracy: This is appointment television.
Josh: They booked legend Aretha Franklin, the elusive chanteuse Mariah Carey, the Canadian icon Celine Dion, and the Cuban beat turner around her, Gloria Stefan, and Shania Twain was there.
Tracy: I'm not going to respond to that.
Josh: (laughs)
Tracy: But why though? But why? But why? For why though? Why?
Josh: It immediately became queer canon.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: Can I take a quick detour to explain to you how big it became with gay folks?
Tracy: Yes, please.
Josh: It was mentioned in Will & Grace. Let me set the scene. Matt Damon-
Tracy: What? In Will & Grace?
Josh: Right.
Tracy: What? The TV show?
Josh: Right. Before Matt Damon's daughter sent him a letter letting him know that homophobic slurs weren't allowed anymore.
Tracy: Oh, my God.
Josh: Decades before (laughs), he was on an episode of Will & Grace.
Tracy: I loved Will & Grace.
Josh: Will & Grace was amazing. It was the show in the '90s that shocked white mainstream American into being “gay people, not necessarily queer people, but gay people, they’re just like you!”
Tracy: The same feelings and emotions.
Josh: Right. They also shop at the Gap. So you got Will and you got Grace. They're the most boring parts of the show, but then you have Jack and you have Karen, the heart of the show.
Tracy: I love Karen!
Josh: Karen is my favorite television character of all time, I think.
Tracy: She's up there for me.
Josh: And Jack was really known for being super animated and elaborate and more fem presenting. In one episode, he meets Matt Damon and they battle for a role in the gay men's chorus.
[CLIP] Voice 1: Excuse me. As Aretha said to Gloria, Celine, Shania, Mariah during Diva's Live, are you tripping? No one interrupts the queen of soul, bitch, okay?
Voice 2: Well I believe she also said, "Hey, Cuba, Canada, cowgirl, crazy, get out of my light and away from my snacks, bitch."
Josh: Would it be the '90s without a white gay man donning a Blackccent?
Tracy: Probably not.
Josh: Would it be the 2000s?
Tracy: Would it be today?
Josh: Would it be now? (laughs)
Tracy: (laughs) Not at all.
Josh: But anyway, Divas Live, the show that became a gay cultural statement, right?
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: The show was a hit so it became this recurring thing. They had 12 specials in total.
Tracy: 12?
Josh: 12.
Tracy: I did not realize that. The first one was what year?
Josh: '98.
Tracy: Okay.
Josh: And the next year, the honorees were Tina Turner, the Whitney Houston, Cher, Brandy, and who else Trace?
Tracy: Treach.
Josh: (laughs)
Tracy: Treach from Naughty by Nature was there in '99. Everybody needs to know this.
Josh: In the immortal words of Gia Gunn from Drag Race...
[CLIP] Gia Gunn: My God, there's room for everybody, let's just say that.
Josh: As Divas Live went on the show was still interesting, but eventually, they, let's just say, expanded the term diva to include pretty much everybody.
Tracy: Kind. You're so generous. (laughs)
Josh: Diva could be anybody. Quick question, Trace. Which one of these performers did not appear on a Divas Live special?
Tracy: Okay.
Josh: A, Nicki Minaj, B, Remy Ma, C, Lisa Marie Presley, D Kid Rock.
Tracy: Well, off the top, I feel like Kid Rock is not the answer because it's too ridiculous for him to have not been there.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: Because if they got Treach on stage in '99, why not Kid Rock? Why not? I don't remember Remy Ma being up there, up there then. So that leaves Nicki Minaj and Lisa Marie Presley?
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: I'm going to say Lisa Marie Presley because that just doesn't make sense to me.
[Buzzer sound]
Josh: I'm so sorry. The correct answer is they all appeared on Divas Live.
Tracy: What?!
Josh: (laughs)
Tracy: I quit this show. We're done.
Josh: Can you believe that?
Tracy: What?!
Josh: So Kid Rock was there. He performed Rock Steady with the late great Aretha Franklin. And she is so gracious to pretend that she knew who that kid was.
[CLIP of Aretha and Kid Rock]
Tracy: Why?
Josh: It's dark side.
Tracy: I don't like it. I don't need to be dipped in holy water and just left there forever.
Josh: Same. Kid Rock aside, the great thing about this event, especially the first one, was the fact that you got the chance to watch the politics of diva and played out in real time. Something that I remember that really stands out to me from the original 1998 Divas Live is this moment that happens. You got Aretha on one side, boom, boom. You got Celine on the other side, boom, boom, but in a French accent.
Tracy: Le boom boom.
Josh: It's this group number at the end of the show, and most of the women, they are deferring to Aretha because she's the queen of soul.
Tracy: Uh-huh (affirmative).
Josh: But Celine, she didn't get the memo.
[CLIP of Aretha and Celine]
Tracy: Oh, no. Le uh-oh.
Josh: If you ever have a Black woman of Aretha's age-
Tracy: Singing gospel!
Josh: --singing to you, asking you if you know Jesus, just lay down.
Tracy: And just wait for Jesus to come back.
Josh: (laughs) Because you're about to know him.
Tracy: Translation for those who may not have picked up on it. Celine clearly did not. Aretha basically said, "Celine, you ol’ spotlight stealing heathen asshole," is what she was saying.
Josh: Exactly. If you watch the clip, you'll notice Mariah sings her part, throws in a little riff,-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: --but she always defers to Aretha and stands behind her.
Tracy: She bows out.
Josh: She has a lot of reverence for Aretha Franklin. She's actually spoken about this moment in interviews.
[CLIP] Mariah Carey: I was heading towards the backup singers because I felt that's where I belonged. When Aretha sings, you don't stand there and try to compete with the Queen of Soul. You revere her and don't be doing ad-libs and trying to riff it on out with her. No.
Josh: No. (laughs)
Tracy: First of all, the whip noises.
Josh: The whips. (laughs)
Tracy: Absolutely. Listen, Mariah gets it, right? Someone of her stature was like, "No, no, no, no, no. I have a place, and what we need to collectively do is put some (singing).
Josh: What is the K? (laughs)
Tracy: On Aretha's name, some respek!
Josh: This moment is so fun, Trace because it really gets to what I’m talking about when I’m talking about observing these diva politics and how they interact with each other. But it also leave me with a bunch of questions. What happened, what was the fallout? Why was each Diva standing where they were standing.
Tracy: These are all very good questions, and I think that you’re in luck because after a quick break, we’re going to talk to somebody who’ll clear all of that up for you.
AD BREAK
Tracy: We are back with Back Issue.
Josh: Eowwww
Tracy: So this episode, we are asking the question what is the definition of a diva? So, we decided to take that question to an expert.
Josh: Mmm (affirmative).
Tracy: Wayne Isaak is the expert, and he was the Executive Vice President of Music Programming and Talent for VH1 from 1998 to 2001 - and he produced Diva's Live. We got into what it's like to put on a show with icons, we got a backstage pass with his stories of what happened behind the scenes and got to be diva’s for the day!
Josh: What is your definition of a diva? What does it mean?
Wayne: For me, it's the divine. It's an Italian word talking about a female deity. So it claims that these women who have tremendous voices are goddesses. In over decades or centuries, it's turned into something that it wasn't originally. I mean, I think we call anybody with attitude a diva, right?
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: (laughs)
Wayne: I certainly have been called that. Josh, I would assume you have, too.
Josh: (laughs)
Tracy: Are you a diva?
Josh: You know, only on Thursdays.
Wayne: Tracy, I doubt that you ever got here [inaudible]?
Tracy: Oh, no, no, no. I am so humble and down to earth, and I also cannot sing my way out of a wet paper bag, so no, I can't.
Josh: (laughs)
Wayne: Yeah, but see, that's it. I don't think you have to be a terrific singer anymore. You could be an incredible rapper. You could be an incredible speaker to fall into the diva net now. But I honor the more original definition of it, which is incredible singers. It's part DNA and natural gift, and so much of it is about practice, and so much of it is about life experience. So diva, to me, it will always be the great singers, and whatever attitude they bring along for them to get to deliver that performance is what it takes.
Tracy: Well, speaking of attitude and divas, you literally had a stage full of them in '98. We want and need to know everything. Everything. Where did the idea come from, firstly?
Wayne: It came from necessity. It didn't start purely. At VH1, I started there in '95. We had been chasing our own big idea award show, and we had this thing called VH1 Honors, and we would put great artists on, but there wasn't a cohesiveness. It just didn't have a lot of meaning. And I mean, we threw everybody, from Prince and Michael Jackson, at it.
Wayne: So VH1 was the channel that played Celine Dion's videos, right? Played them from day one, played, and played, and played them. In '97, My Heart Will Go On came out right at the end of the year, which would go on to be her biggest hit and just one of the biggest hits of the last... I don't know.
Josh: Of all time.
Wayne: Exactly, of all time. A lot of my job was trying to get talent doing our shows, involved with us, and so on. So René, her husband and manager, I'd been pursuing him. I had been to every concert. I was always saying, "We've got to do something special together. Would you do something with us?" And finally, he said, "Look, you guys make a concert, we'll do it. We'll star on it." So the idea was simple. "Hey, let's get a bunch of other great female singers together, and let's make this a Mount Rushmore kind of concert."
Josh: That's what it felt like! (Laughs)
Wayne: Yeah.
Josh: Yeah.
Wayne: We were able to land Aretha Franklin, which was terrific. Gloria Estefan came on, which I think was important because we wanted to be diverse. We wanted to have different styles. We got Mariah. That was a no-brainer. When we mentioned the word diva, which we attached fairly early on in our production meetings, it rang every bell. And the last one, I think, was Shania Twain, and I took some heat for saying yes to that, but I knew she was going to be huge. Ultimately, irony is that she got the highest quarter rating on the whole show.
Tracy: Really?
Wayne: Yeah, which is a surprise to us as well. On other shows, it was really similar. The second one, I had Tina Turner in my mind as, "This is the centerpiece," right? And she said, "No, we can't do it. We're not in season." It's like being a baseball player. You got to-
Tracy: Yeah, what does that mean for a singer to not be in season?
Wayne: Well, if they're at home, they're not making a new record, they don't have plans to tour, and they don't have a band and a music director, and blah, blah, blah.
Tracy: So she was like, "I'm at home. I'm chilling."
Wayne: What then happened is I went back to Whitney, who had so lovingly graced us two years before for an Honors show, "Would you do this? It's a different concept. You saw it last year," and she said yes. And then Tina Turner calls back and says, "Look, we are available." Then fairly quickly, Cher, who was managed by an associate of Roger, who manages Tina, said, "Hey, we got this song coming out, Life After Love, and we're looking to tour," and so on. And the song was a smash. We could tell it was going to be a smash.
Josh: Huge (laughs)
Wayne: Yeah. It like rebirth her for the ninth time. So, man, now we got Cher, and Tina Turner, and Whitney. Then I had an idea. If you had to pick a man for a diva, who would it be?
Josh: Elton John.
Wayne: It would be Elton John. And we knew that Tina was going to tour with Elton, so it's like, "This is perfect." So we asked Elton, and he said yes.
Josh: When you're talking about booking these incredible talents, but also making sure that the alchemy is such that there's enough space for them to do what they do, it really gets me to one of the things that, I think, culturally, we really love about these types of shows or charity singles, anytime where you see these titans in the same place at the same time, who opens the show? Who closes the show? Who's paired with who? How did you go about making those sorts of decisions, and what was your experience like arranging the show?
Wayne: There was no question that once we had Whitney at the end, we're going to open with Tina. And we had a great opening plan. Tina pulled up in a limousine on Broadway. She did simply the best, and it knocked me out. The younger, less experienced people, they couldn't push one of those legends out of the way.
Tracy: They hadn't paid their dues yet.
Josh: Right.
Wayne: So Tina, who I'd been to her rehearsal... Elton was supposed to come rehearse like over the weekend. Didn't make it, so she's rehearsing with him for the first time. Elton is just not cutting it. I think it was Bitch is Back that they were doing together, and she kind of screamed at him. She's like, "You got to play a different... You got to play..." And he had a diva moment like no other. He got up and walked to the dressing room.
Tracy: Oh man.
Wayne: And Tina, not to be left alone, not to be put in the corner, followed.
Tracy: Oh, geez.
Wayne: And of course, Ken Ehrlich and I are running as well to try to figure out what's going to happen because we can't really lose either of them. We can't have this fall apart. And they're going to announce going on tour together, like in a day or two.
Tracy: Oh, no.
Wayne: They shut the trailer door-
Tracy: Oh, dear. (laughs)
Wayne: ... and I swear to God, it was rocking. And you could hear shouting.
Tracy: Were you terrified? Were you like, "Oh my gosh, everything is ruined"?
Wayne: Oh, hell yes, we were terrified. (laughs) Because this was the day before the show, and we were just like, "Oh my God." And it went on, and then it got very quiet, and we're all like--
Tracy: Uh-oh
Wayne: And the managers are out there with us. The managers are like... They're bugging as well. Then I'll be damned. Tina came out, went back on stage. A little bit later, Elton came back out, and they finished the song, and they got in their cars and went home.
Tracy: Wow.
Wayne: It was like we're holding our breath, still. You're still waiting for somebody to say, "I'm out," to get that phone call over dinner. But as it turned out, it never happened, and they were great together. They did Bitch is Back, of all ironic song titles to do. But the tour was cancelled.
[CLIP from “Bitch is Back”]
Josh: I've read this article from 1999 from the Wall Street Journal in which you said that the articles were politely competitive, and I think about that moment where Carole King comes out, and she's supposed to sing Natural Woman, and she's about to start, and Aretha is like, "Would y'all forgive me if I didn't sing this song?" And so she starts singing.
[CLIP from Aretha’s “Natural Woman”]
Josh: You can tell that all of them have their set arranged parts, but Aretha's like, "This is my song. I'll do what I want."
Wayne: There's no doubt.
Josh: Right.
Wayne: Come on, who's the queen?
Josh: Right, exactly. But then I think about Celine Dion coming up and being like, "I belong here as well," and she's riffing back and forth. What happened afterwards?
Wayne: At that point, Aretha exuded and exercised her seniority. It's that simple. And Celine chose to respect it. Celine Dion, particularly then, in my estimation, wasn't what I would call a diva.
Tracy: People seem to view that moment with Aretha and Celine either as Celine being respectful and paying homage, or Celine stepping out of her lane and challenging Aretha, and a lot of people read it as disrespect.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Wayne: Ultimately, we knew at that point they also were engaged on live television, so neither is going to run. They're not going to bail--
Tracy: True
Wayne: --and what's going to happen is going to happen. And here's the other thing, Celine Dion can't help herself.
Josh: You can just tell that she just loves performing.
Tracy: And just breaks out into songs at random, yeah.
Josh: What was your favorite moment when you think back to Divas Live? What is it? And then, what do you think the legacy of the show is?
Wayne: Each show had moments that sent shivers up my spine. The fact that we were able to actually build something where there wasn't something before, and to build it based on real musical finesse, real virtuosity of artistry, that doesn't happen on TV very often.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So hypothetical question. You're producing Divas Live 2021. Who do you invite?
Tracy: Yes. Who are today's divas?
Wayne: Look, last year was a Divas show. Andra Day doing Billie Holiday blew my mind. I love Rosalía, the Spanish artist. Now, she's been on award shows. People know about her. But she's phenomenal. She's a diva. She's incredible. Jennifer Hudson is such a force of nature. And I think once we see the Aretha film, we'll realize that she could just run her own divas. Ariana Grande, Billie Eilish, I love Billie Eilish, Demi Lovato.
Tracy: Oh Demi's a good one.
Wayne: I mean, how do you do this and not try to get Beyonce.
Tracy: Right. You at least gotta send the email. (laughs)
Wayne: Totally. (laughs)
Josh: Thank you so much for spending this time with us and telling us all these stories, Mr. Wayne Isaak. I really appreciate it.
Tracy: This has been absolutely great. And enlightening. Thank you so much for the behind the scenes story.
Wayne: It's my pleasure.
[Learn something from this bounce remix]
JOsh: So, Trace.
Tracy: Yes?
Josh: (laughs) To channel our patron Saint Tyra Banks who in her interview with ABC's Nightline, is not a diva.
[CLIP] Voice: How much of a diva are you?
Tyra Banks: I wish I was more of a diva.
Tracy: Oh Lord. Tyra.
Josh: (Laughs) Did we--
[CLIP] Tyra Banks: Learn something from this?
Tracy: Absolutely. I definitely learned something from this.
Josh: What'd you learn?
Tracy: I think a big thing that I learned is that a diva is a very specific celebrity archetype that's very difficult to describe or capture. When you see it, you know it, you can't fake it. You either are, or you are not.
Josh: Right. And it’s sort of by studying these texts, whether it’s Divas Live or a charity singles performance. That’s when we really get a chance to see how these diva politics that are usually behind the scenes, we get to see them in public.
Tracy: Right! We get to see the finished product when it’s on stage but we don’t know about the conversations that were happening backstage because we are regular common people, and we’re not allowed. (laughs)
Josh: Exactly. And I think that these chances to see these diva politics play out are getting rarer and rarer because I think that diva-dom doesn’t exist in the same way because of social media.
Tracy: Mmhm (affirmative).
Josh: I feel like it’s a dying breed. Like, Beyonce and maybe Adele?
Tracy: What is it about Adele that makes you think that she might be like at the end of the line of the classic divas?
Josh: She could give you a concert with just a microphone in a stool.
Tracy: Immense talent.
Josh: Has beautiful gowns.
Tracy: Great gowns.
Josh: Beautiful vocals, and she just be chilling in her house.
Tracy: Word.
Josh: Like you don't see the insides and outsides of her life really.
Tracy: Inaccessible.
Josh: Except that one time that she was going to Carnival.
Tracy: You know what? We don't talk about that moment either. So I am going to make a suggestion, might be controversial. I don't know. I haven't really thought it through. I want to say that if Doja Cat is not, she's on her way to maybe?
Josh: I kind of feel like Chloe Bailey could maybe?
Tracy: Hmm. Is it the Beyonce connection?
Josh: That is definitely a part of this diva thing, right?
Tracy: Right.
Josh: Like Aretha was Whitney's godmother and Patti LaBelle is Mariah's godmother. And there is a generational type of like handing of the torch thing that happens sometimes. So, the Beyonce thing definitely helps, but like her charisma on stage and her vocals are amazing.
Tracy: Talent. Yeah. Okay. Here's a question in the midst of this little game. Do you agree that a bit of controversy is what also goes into this diva recipe?
Josh: Little bit. Like spice.
Tracy: Yeah. You know, just a little seasoning on it. Whitney's had hers. Mariah's had hers, Doja Cat has had hers. There was the time she was in a racial chatroom showing feet.
Josh: Showing feet!
Tracy: It's true. It's true. But she's another one. I think that her talent is amazing as an entertainer.
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: Not so much as a singer.
Josh: She did that Say So song that y'all did that TikTok dance to the ground of.
Tracy: (laughs) Yeah.
Josh: But every single time she did it, she did it in a different way. It was vaudeville, then she did it like she was an alternative emo singer from the 90's. She did it in so many different ways and so many different interpretations. I thought that was really impressive.
Tracy: Yes. That's a good point. And I feel like that exhibits very deep knowledge of like music and different musical genres.
Josh: Being able to reference them.
Tracy: Right. This is hard though.
Josh: Yeah. I just don't think that it exists in the same way though. I think now the rules of diva-dom are going to evolve and you're going to, instead of being elusive, you're going to have to be able to harness the power of social media and the gaze in a way that feels like aspirational and authentic.
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: If there's anything that I wish that this show could do in contribution to the diva cannon, it would be the inclusion of women in hip hop as divas. I don't think we include them in the conversation as much.
Tracy: That's true.
Josh: Like Lil' Kim is a diva.
Tracy: I was just about to say Lil' Kim.
Josh: But you can see that this is really hard, right? It's like us like bending the rules, shifting them. I think we should go through and point out some of the qualities that we've learned that divas have.
Tracy: If only there were some scientific science experts who could teach us about all of this.
[Nature music starts playing]
Josh: Hi, I'm Josh Goodall.
Tracy: And I'm Tracy Attenborough. And we are here in the majestic, MGM grand Las Vegas here in Las Vegas, Nevada. The natural habitats of the diva.
Josh: We've been camping for days, hoping to catch the sight of the elusive diva.
Tracy: Okay. We Australian now.
Josh: (laughs) Oh no.
Tracy: See, when the diva does appear, she is flamboyant, radiant, impossible to miss. It's incredibly rare to see one in nature.
Josh: These creatures tend to stay above the fray. They do not interact with commoners. The diva in Latin, [foreign language].
Tracy: Wait, do you hear?
Josh: I do.
[CLIP of Celine singing]
Tracy: That's it. That's the call of the divas Celinis Dionis.
Josh: I'd know that call anywhere. It's unmistakable. The perfect pitch. The high belt. One is just transported to the sinking of the Titanic.
Tracy: This is one of the tales of a true diva. Copycat creatures may try, but they'll never replicate the standard of vocal prowess that divas deliver.
Josh: Wait, Tracy, do you hear that?
[CLIP of ___ singing]
Tracy: Oh, I do hear it indeed. That dear listeners is not the sound of a diva.
Josh: What you're hearing there is a copycat, indubitability. Sorry to this woman.
Tracy: Hey, look over there. Another approaches.
[CLIP] Mariah Carey: It's a real diamond necklace and it's [inaudible]. I wear it as a tiara as well.
Tracy: Like birds of paradise. The diva will flaunt bright colors, glitter and hyper feminine aesthetics to intimidate their contemporaries and stun the public.
Josh: What we're seeing here is a real embrace of high [camps] and stability.
Tracy: Indeed. It is that Josh Goodall indeed it is that also as well for sure. Indubitably.
[Music break}
Josh: Well, Trace. I'm so glad we got to the bottom of this.
Tracy: Me too. It was a journey. I think we can all agree to that. Are we divas now?
Josh: I think so.
Tracy: Let's go have a diva duel off, an ad lib duel off.
Josh: Okay.
Tracy: (singing) Yeah yay.
Josh: (singing) Yeah yay.
Tracy: (singing) Whoa, whoa.
Josh: (singing) Whoa.
Tracy: Yay!
Tracy: Back Issue is a production of Pineapple Street Studios.
Josh: This show is created and is hosted by Tracy Clayton.
Tracy: That's me. And also Josh Gwynn.
Josh: The queen of soul.
Tracy: Oh. Didn't know I was in the presence of royalty.
Josh: (laughs) Our senior producer is also Josh Gwynn and our lead producer is Emmanuel Hapsis.
Josh: Our managing producer is John Asante.
Tracy: Our senior editor is the queen of hip hop soul, Leila Day.
Josh: Yes. (laughs) Our associate producers are Alexis Moore, Xandra Ellin, and Briana Garrett. Destiny's children. Our intern is Arlene Arevalo. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky and our engineers are Raj Makhija and Davy Sumner.
Tracy: This show also features amazing solo music by Don Will of the almighty Boys 2 Men, bet y'all didn't know that.
Josh: (laughs)
Tracy: You can follow him on the socials at donwill and you can follow me on the socials @brokeymcpoverty.
Josh: Follow me @regardingjosh on all the socials. You can follow the show at backissuepodcast on Instagram. You can subscribe to this podcast wherever free podcasts are sold. Leave us a review, tell all your friends, tell all your family, tell all your fans.
Tracy: Stop singing my part.
Josh: (laughs) Stop singing my part now baby.
[Music ends]
Josh: Where are my background singers?
Tracy: Do it like my bday.
--END--