BACK ISSUE
That Time We Needed to 🗣 GO LAY DOWN
This week, we’re taking a moment to breathe, shoop shoop, and exhale. Tracy and Josh explore mental health with our favorite therapist, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast! With Dr. Joy’s guidance, our hosts tackle huge questions like: How do we take care of ourselves when it feels like The End Times™? How do we bounce back from burnout? And how do we stop thinking of rest as something we need to earn? Grab your fluffiest pillow, ‘cause we’re all about to go lay down.
[CLIP] Voice: Beyonce? You look like Luther Vandross.
[CLIP] Voice: Ho, but make it fashion.
[CLIP] Voice: But you ain't heard that from me.
[CLIP] Voice: Fierce
[CLIP] Voice: Call ‘em
[CLIP] Voice: You see, when you do clownery--
[CLIP] Voice: ‘Cuz we won’t stop.
[CLIP] Voice: Can’t get no sleep ‘cuz of y’all--
[CLIP] Voice: the clown comes back to bite.
[CLIP] Voice: Y’all not gonna get no sleep ‘cuz of me.
[CLIP] Voice: It's Britney, bitch.
[CLIP] Voice: [Voices overlapping] We were rooting for you, Tiffany. We were all rooting for you [overlapping voices crescendo]
Tracy: Who said that?
[Intro music stars playing]
Josh: Welcome to Back Issue.
Tracy: A weekly podcast that revisits formative moments in pop culture that we still think about.
Josh: This week, we're gonna take a pause from pop culture and talk about us, Tracy!
Tracy: Are you talking about that show that everybody watches and cries? Then keeps watching it.
Josh: No.
Tracy: Oh. The, um, Jordan Peel movie that still scares me to this day?
Josh: No.
Tracy: Um, Brandy's song, the hit single from Full Moon?
Josh: (laughs) From Full Moon?
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: No. No. I'm talking about me and you. Like, our mental health.
Emmanuel: Cut the music please. Cut the music. Hi, Producer Emanuel here. This is where we usually feature pop culture clips that make you go, "I haven't thought of that since Benifer 1.0." But in honor of our mental health episode, we wanted to do things a little differently this time. How about we use this time to get out of our heads and into our bodies and just breathe. All right on your next inhale breathe in gratitude that your body has gotten you this far. And breathe out all those years Aleya's music wasn't available for streaming. Breathe in some healing, and breathe out Nicki Minaj's recent tweet about her cousin's friend's engorged testicles. Actually let's exhale again because there's two of them. I feel a lot lighter, don't you? Great, I love this rest, now back to Josh and Tracy.
Tracy: Each week we'll go back into the past and revisit unforgettable moments we all think we remember.
Josh: And learn what they can teach us about where we are now.
Tracy: I'm Tracy Clayton, therapy evangelist and do you have a second to talk about therapy?
Josh: (laughs) I love your pamphlet.
Tracy: (laughs)
Josh: I'm Josh Gwynn and how do you feel about that?
Josh: Hey Trace.
Tracy: Hey, Josh.
Josh: How you doing, friend?
Tracy: Oh, you know, just trying to act like the world's not burning down when it is and as evident from every room that I stand in in my house. I'm just trying to chill, you know.
Josh: Can I tell you a secret?
Tracy: Yes.
Josh: I have been asking people how they're doing, just out of literal reflex, out of muscle memory.
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: And then it leaves my lips and I'm like, "Ah. I am sorry, I did not mean to put you in that head space."
Tracy: (laughs)
Josh: Because I know.
Tracy: (laughs) Seriously.
Josh: I feel like a lot of us are struggling right now.
Tracy: Yes.
Josh: There was this Tik Tok and there's this picture of this girl, she's just sitting in a bed and there's this voice over and it's like,
[CLIP] There’s wildfires all over the globe. Flooding all over the globe. Literally the effects of climate change that they've been talking about happening for the past 50 years are happening now before our eyes. Are you guys excited? Let's go back to work. Let's keep working. Keep working."
Josh: I feel like that's how we all feel right now.
Tracy: Is this the new New York sitting on the bed all dressed meme?
Josh: Literally that.
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: Literally that.
Tracy: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So what about this? Tell me if this is a good idea or an amazing idea.
Josh: My favorite game.
Tracy: It's my favorite game too, am I right or am I really right?
Josh: (laughs)
Tracy: Um, what if we made this episode of Back Issue, just like a little therapy session, tune in, check up, check in, with our favorite psychologist?
Josh: Dr. Joy?
Tracy: I mean, unless you have another favorite psychologist to confuse her with.
Josh: No, it's Dr. Joy!
Tracy: It's Dr. Joy. And by Dr. Joy we mean Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, Clinical Psychologist and the founder of Therapy for Black Girls. Fantastic Instagram account, fantastic podcast, fantastic website.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: Everybody should go check it out. We spoke to Dr. Joy last season, I don't know if you remember, but we talked to her all about the psychological toll of the pandemic and specifically how the lack of human contact is impacting us and changing our lives.
Josh: And you can listen to that wherever you find your podcast. But, I'm glad we have Dr. Joy back because I have so many more questions, Trace.
Tracy: So many more questions, so many more stresses. (laughs)
Josh: Okay. So, instead of a regular episode, think of this as the learn something from this segment that we have at the end of every episode. Wait, I just had a thought.
Tracy: What?
Josh: What if you walked into your therapy session and it was Tyra Banks? And she was your therapist.
Tracy: I hold in my hand two forms of cognitive behavioral therapy.
Josh: (laughs)
Tracy: Do you stay or do you go? I don't know what I would do.
Josh: (laughs) But, think of this episode as that segment extended. Learn something from this, the episode.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: We're gonna be hitting some of the stuff that we've been feeling, that our friends have been feeling.
Tracy: Like being really sad for extended periods of time.
Josh: Like being burnt out and feeling like you have no motivation.
Tracy: Like not being able to get off the couch because you're slave tired. (laughs)
Josh: Like capitalism.
Tracy: Oh man.
Josh: (laughs) We're so happy to have our unofficial, unauthorized (laughs) therapist for Back Issue, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford-
Tracy: Whoo!
Josh: ... from Therapy for Black Girls back with us. Legally, and probably ethically, she can't give us medical advice.
Tracy: (laughs)
Josh: But, I'm hoping she can help us through what feels like the series finale of the United States of America.
Tracy: Oh, lord.
Josh: Feels like we're jumping the shark.
Tracy: Geez. So no pressure, but fix our lives.
Josh: (laughs)
Dr. Joy: Please save us, somebody save us.
Tracy: I think that at the very least, we just want to process some things that are going on ourselves and also help our listeners process some things.
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: Just in case they're not having a great time. Honestly, if you are having a great time...
Josh: (laughs) What's that like?
Tracy: Send us an email and tell us-
Dr. Joy: How.
Tracy: ... tell us how.
Dr. Joy: Tell, tell the rest of us.
Tracy: Right.
Josh: One of the things that I can't make sense of is it feels like we're all lying to each other. There's this dissonance that I feel.
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: Where it feels like on one hand we're acknowledging that we're all living through this thing, this pandemic, racial uprisings and environmental catastrophes.
Dr. Joy: Yes.
Josh: But then at the same time, there's nothing tying us together. We're not grieving this moment together, even though we're experiencing it together.
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: And I remember when 9/11 happened, we grieved for a long time together. But right now I feel like if I go to the grocery store, I'll look at someone and we'll both be like, "Girl, you look tired. Okay, so you're going to work tomorrow, right?" And that I just, I can't-
Dr. Joy: Yeah.
Josh: ... wrap my head around what's going on. Do you think that our collective empathy is shrinking? Or is it just the amount of stuff that we're going through?
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Joy: Yeah, so, both of those things. I think there's so much going on right now that it feels really hard for people to know what to pay attention to first. Like, what feels like it's on the most fire kind of thing, right?
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: (laughs)
Dr. Joy: And honestly some of it is protective, right? Because if we allowed ourselves to really feel all of what we feeling, like, would we even be leaving the house? Probably not.
Josh: (laughs) Probably not.
Tracy: No, absolutely not.
Dr. Joy: Yeah, and so, you know, some of it is designed to kinda keep our bodies from like not experiencing like the shock of everything happening-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Joy: ... all at one time. But I think that that is concerning. I actually just read an article recently, I think it was in Rolling Stone, I forget where it was, but about how the simultaneous tragedies, they feel like are actually dipping into our empathy.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Joy: And making it more difficult to care-
Josh: Yeah.
Dr. Joy: ... about the things because, again, so many things are happening at once.
Tracy: Sheesh. I'm wondering if we are not even aware that we're not grieving. Or if we're not aware that grieving is a thing that we have to do.
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: So I'm wondering if you could talk to us about like grief and it's function. And like what does it do to our brains and bodies.
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, I mean, you're right. So I think a lot of people have thought that grief was only about the loss of loved ones, or the loss of, you know, the people who were meaningful to us.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Joy: But, really grief is related to anything that has had meaning to us and when it ends or when it's over, we grieve the loss of not having that thing anymore.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Joy: So, the loss of normalcy.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Joy: Right, you know, I think there's a lot of conversation about post pandemic, even though it doesn't feel like we're close to a post-
Josh: Okay.
Dr. Joy: ... pandemic yet-
Tracy: It's not.
Dr. Joy: You know, but people are really grieving the loss of what our lives were like before March.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Joy: I think we're grieving the loss of routine.
Tracy: Yes.
Dr. Joy: We are grieving the loss of being close with loved ones right now, you know, though some people have regained some of social gatherings and stuff like that. A lot of people haven't and so for a lot of us our lives have been shaken up. And so we do have to grieve this idea and let go of this idea that we are ever going back to where we were.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Joy: And that's really uncomfortable, right. We don't do really well with unknowns and like, "Oh my gosh, what is happening?"
Josh: Yeah.
Dr. Joy: But I feel like that's what we're being forced to do in this moment and to really recon with the idea that whatever is gonna be on the other side of this pandemic is not gonna be what was before. And we will have to-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: ... individually and collectively figure out what that next thing looks like.
Josh: Is burnout related to that grief? Because I feel like there's no one in my life right now that's not burnt out.
Dr. Joy: Yes.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Josh: Like, (laughs)
Tracy: Yes.
Josh: And that's not something I've ever experienced before.
Dr. Joy: Yeah.
Josh: Usually it's like one person at a time-
Dr. Joy: Right. (laughs)
Josh: ... and now, it's just like collective burnout.
Dr. Joy: Yeah.
Josh: Like what's going on?
Dr. Joy: Yeah. Well, I think that the burnout comes from like the complete failure of all the systems that we thought would be in place to save us from something like this.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: Right? You know, so we thought the CDC and all the other like health things would be in place to like, save us from something like a pandemic or at least-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: ... be able to act quickly enough so that millions of people would not have died from this. Right?
Josh: Right.
Dr. Joy: Or, you know, like the rental moratoriums and public safety-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: ... system after system is just failing us-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: ... right now. And so I think people tend to think about burnout as like this individual, like you're not working hard enough-
Josh: Right.
Dr. Joy: ... but really burnout comes from these systems just completely failing us and us trying to scrap and do whatever we could to kinda make it work, but the system is not really built to work.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Josh: So if the system is outside of us, is there a way to avoid the burnout? Like what do, (laughs) what am I supposed to do with it?
Dr. Joy: No, I- I think it is about taking moments to rest, right? Like I think going back to your earlier point of why it feels like we're not acknowledging like the elephant in the room-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: ... I think those moments of joy or those moments where you're watching whatever, on Netflix or whatever-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: ... are what allow you to kinda go in and out of fighting another day. Right?
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: You know, so I think we know that the systems aren't working, but I think a lot of us are also working to rebuild systems that do help most people. Right?
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: ...that do help the most marginalized among us, but we can't continue to do that work if we're not also refueling and, you know, doing the- the care that we need to really take care of ourselves.
Tracy: Right. Everybody needs to lay down, man.
Dr. Joy: (laughs) Yes.
Josh: It's hard though!
Dr. Joy: I mean we're and not to blame everything on capitalism, but also to blame everything on capitalism.
Tracy: Right. (laughs)
Dr. Joy: Yeah. (laughing) It- it feels like collectively, like, what are we doing?
Josh: Right.
Dr. Joy: You know, like we are trying to push kids back into school, we trying to send the teachers back into-
Josh: Right.
Dr. Joy: ... the doctors, the nurses, the people in the hospitals are done y'all, like-
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: Yeah.
Dr. Joy: ... there is just so little left to give, and I feel like nobody's really paying attention to the fact that we really just need a hard rest right now.
Tracy: Yeah.
Dr. Joy: Like this next year really could be taken off.
Josh: Yeah.
Dr. Joy: But nobody's gonna do that. Right? 'Cause nobody wants the economy to fail and-
Josh: Right.
Dr. Joy: ... but we know that there's money to like keep things afloat if they wanted to.
Tracy: Right. And now that, that bell has been rang, they trying to unring them. (laughs) It's like, I have memorized that song, chile you're not about to, (laughs) you're not rolling back with a tape on that one.
Dr. Joy: Right. Right.
Tracy: A thing that I also wonder about this is everything is changing all the time, every day, but we're also still stuck in our homes and we're quarantined. Like I just moved into a new apartment so that I can be stressed just in a different apartment. (laughs) You know what I mean? (laughing) Like I just want the experience of being stressed out someplace else. So is that another thing that's at work here?
Dr. Joy: Absolutely. And I mean, I think we saw this, right? Like earlier in the pandemic when people were doing like all these home improvement projects and like doing-
Tracy: Right.
Dr. Joy: ... all of these things. Right? Like-
Tracy: So much sourdough bread.
Dr. Joy: Yeah. So much bread and all the recipes (laughs), you know, our brains crave novelty.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: And so this idea that you are stuck looking at these same four walls, like you wanna change it up. So can I order some new furniture? Can I change up the paint color? Can I build myself some kinda outdoor living space so that I can kind of change up my routine a little bit?
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: That's why I've been obsessed with home improvement TikTok (laughs) I love it.
Dr. Joy: (laughs) Yes.
Tracy: Oh, that makes sense actually.
Dr. Joy: Yeah. I mean, if you look at like supply chain stuff, like you will notice furniture and things are backordered for months at a time.
Josh: Wood is expensive.
Dr. Joy: Or is very expensive, right? Yeah. So, I mean-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: I think a lot of people have gone through that same thing of just feeling like I need something new, how can I inject some new energy or personality into my space?
Josh: That makes sense.
[Music break]
Tracy: I wonder if this is how every generation feels, everything is just crumbling right now. Like everything is bad, everything is wrong. The world is mad. There's no water in California, there's fricking hurricanes in New York City. So that feels very ominous.
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Tracy: The job situation is ominous. The (laughs) the whole racism thing is ominous. (laughs) And so it really, really does feel sometimes like, you know what? This is, this is the last generation, this is it.
Josh: It's the end of times, like my grandma used to say.
Tracy: Right.
Dr. Joy: Right. You gotta go to book of Revelations. Yes.
Tracy: Right. So I'm wondering when it feels like this, how can we find hope? It's so dark everywhere. Where-
Dr. Joy: It's so dark.
Tracy: ... where is the hope hiding? And how do we (laughs)
Dr. Joy: Listen, listen-
Tracy: ... how do we get to turn on this GPS? (laughs) Drop your location.
Dr. Joy: (laughs) Right. Drop a pin. This is something I have been talking to my own therapist about. Right? Like it- it feels really hard when there are so many awful things happening. Like how do we wake up every day to kinda have hope?
Tracy: Yeah.
Dr. Joy: So what she has been encouraging me to do and something we've been working on is when everything outside feels like it's chaos, you have to be able to cultivate inner calm.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: Right? And so one of the best ways she says I'm like, "Girl, I don't know." (laughs) One of the best ways she says is to really do some deep, intentional mindfulness, practicing medicine, different stretches, grounding exercises, hard resets. So, you know, pulling away from doom scrolling and like paying attention to the news-
Tracy: Yeah.
Dr. Joy: ... and all of those things, like really long periods of silence so that you give your body time to reset.
Josh: Dr. Joy, (laughs) mentally, I understand-
Tracy: Wait a second, before you go on, (laughs) hold on. (laughs) Because I want everybody to know that as soon as Dr. Joy said mindfulness, (laughs) Josh took the biggest, deepest breath, and I was (laughs) like, oh, that's the word.
Dr. Joy: That's- that's his trigger word.
Tracy: That's the word. Josh is having an issue.
Josh: Mentally, I why understand mindfulness. Right?
Dr. Joy: Right.
Josh: Like I understand the importance of meditation.
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Josh: Am I broken? 'Cause it just doesn't feel like it works. (laughs) You know what it feels like? It feels like hypnosis-
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Josh: ... when people are like, it only works if you believe in it, like (laughs) that, like it feels fake, it feels like a tautology, it feels like a fallacy.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Josh: And then I feel worse 'cause I feel like I'm failing at something-
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Josh: ... that my body should be able to do.
Dr. Joy: Yeah. And that's not where we wanna go. Right? The thing is that there are so many different ways to practice mindfulness. I think when people hear mindfulness, they think it only looks one way, but it can look a lot of different ways.
Tracy: Yeah.
Dr. Joy: So that's why I'm saying, like stretching, um, can be a form of mindfulness. There are like sound healing exercises.
Josh: I do like those. When the sound start panning back and forth and the sound baths and stuff, I do like those ones.
Dr. Joy: Yes. And so it really is just about being intentional about being in your body.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: Right? So I'm not paying attention to all of the chaos outside, I'm paying attention to what I do actually have control over, which is my internal experience.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: And so, you know, the sound treatments in water, you hear people say like, oh, you need to go outside and pick grass, kinda thing-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: ... and they're being silly, but really like putting your feet in the ground or in sand or in water-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: ... it physically jolts you into reminding yourself that there's a connection between you and something much bigger.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: And so getting your feet in the ground really does help you. It's called grounding for a reason.
Josh: Yeah.
Dr. Joy: And so it really is wanting you to kind of come into this moment, 'cause this moment is all we have.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: Right. And so really focusing your energy on what is in the here and now as opposed to the future or what has happened in the past.
Josh: I think that like capitalism gets you to think that everyone's version of mindfulness should look the same.
Dr. Joy: Right.
Tracy: So they can sell it easier. (laughing)
Josh: Exactly. So they can sell it to you.
Tracy: Yeah. (laughs)
Josh: Exactly. And so like-
Dr. Joy: Yeah.
Josh: ... it is really helpful to hear you say that everyone's version can be different.
Dr. Joy: Yeah.
Tracy: Also though, like, I understand everything that you just said, it makes sense on a superficial level for me-
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Tracy: ... but I'm also like what happens if, and when I get up and I do these stretches and I feel exactly the same, you know what I mean?
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Tracy: Like, is it a thing that just requires practice?
Dr. Joy: Yeah. So you're not gonna feel better like after one stretching session. Right? Like it is something-
Tracy: [inaudible]
Dr. Joy: (laughs) unfortunately-
Tracy: Yeah.
Dr. Joy: ... unfortunately, but the other thing is that where we are in the world right now calls on every tool we can possibly have in our tool kit.
Tracy: Okay.
Dr. Joy: And so we are talking about stretching and sound baths in combination with talking to a therapist-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: ... in combination with staying connected to our goals, in combination with exercise and paying attention to, you know, what we're eating, and making sure we're sleeping well. Right? It's not any one thing that is going to carry us through everything that we're experiencing. We're looking at all the different tools we can pull on right now to take care of ourselves. Again, because there are so many tragedies happening, one after another, I think we are just at capacity. And again, I really feel like we just all need to lay down. Like that song that came out about go lay down?
Tracy: Yes.
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: (singing)
Josh: (singing)
Tracy: (singing)
[CLIP of “Go Lay Down” Tik Tok]
Dr. Joy: (laughing)
Josh: (laughing)
Tracy: I said you ain't gotta tell me but once.
Josh: Mm.
Dr. Joy: Rest is not something we have to deserve. We don't have to work for rest. Like rest is something that is inherently ours to take.
Tracy: Yeah.
Dr. Joy: Um, and so I think it's an important reminder.
Josh: It's so weird though because I feel like a lot of times we feel like we need permission to rest.
Dr. Joy: Yes. And where does that come from? Again, this hustle culture, this capitalism.
Tracy: (sings) Capitalism.
Josh: (laughing)
Dr. Joy: All of those things. Yeah, like we shouldn't feel that way, but we do, right? And so I think it's important to interrogate why. Like what is making us feel guilty for wanting to take a nap?
Tracy: How do you learn how to rest? Like how do you unlearn feeling like if you rest, you're weak? If you are resting you’re not being productive. Because listen, if I tell you I'm sitting down and resting, don't assume that I'm not doing anything because I am sitting down and resting. That is an event, okay. I'm doing something.
Dr. Joy: Yes.
Tracy: How do we learn how to rest?
Dr. Joy: Yeah, so I think encouraging one another and making sure that we are respecting the boundaries that people put in place for them to rest.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Joy: How many times has someone said they're on vacation but we text them with a like, "Oh, just this one question, I hate to disturb you," right? You know, so I think also encouraging one another but also respecting people's boundaries to protect their own rest, which then helps us to create those boundaries for ourselves, I think is really important.
Tracy: Mm.
Dr. Joy: And just like anything else, it may feel a little weird at first, but the more you practice it, the more comfortable it becomes. The more you get out of thinking that you have to earn your rest.
Josh: I feel like I need more practice then, because ...
Dr. Joy: (laughing)
Josh: (laughing) I was like trying to watch television and I just kept getting ... You know that feeling when you're reading a book and you read the same sentence like seven times?
Dr. Joy: Mm, because you're not really paying attention, yeah.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And I was like, why am I so bad at resting?
Dr. Joy: (laughing) Well I mean, so resting I think can look a lot of different ways, and, you know, maybe looking at something is not what you need. Maybe you do need that hard reset, right, to kind of go silent and not try to like busy yourself, you know, paying attention to a show. But like, "Okay, let me just turn everything off and like just lay here."
Josh: Mm.
Tracy: A thing ... I feel like it's about to be blind leading the blind with me trying to give you some advice on how to rest, right?
Josh: (laughing)
Tracy: But-
Josh: Give it to me, give it to me.
Tracy: ... a thing that really helps me, and this is when I had just gotten fired, laid off, whatever, and I had a lot of time on my hands, and I was exhausted, and I was like, "I'm at home all the time. Why am I so fucking tired?" But the real work in that for me was to monitor my thoughts as I was sitting down and rest, and like when my body freaks out because-
Josh: I feel like you're trying to trick me into meditating.
Tracy: I'm not, I'm not, I'm not.
Josh: (laughing)
Tracy: Because my brain also does not meditate. I have tried. I think I'm trying to trick you into being kind to yourself, maybe.
Josh: Mm.
Dr. Joy: Mm.
Tracy: Like when you feel your body and your brain going, "You know what? You should be up doing something. There's all this work to do. There's stuff to do here at home. I just feel like I'm lazy. I feel weak."
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: That's when in my head I would kick in and just be like, "You know what? No you're not. You're not weak. You're tired because your body needs rest. This is what your body is telling you."
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: Just chill out. Just relax.
Dr. Joy: Yeah.
Tracy: And it helped to know that it's not going to happen instantly. Like working out. I'm the type of bitch who will go to the gym one time and then the next day if my pants don't fit looser, I'm done. I'm done working out.
Dr. Joy: (laughing)
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: It doesn't work for me. You know?
Dr. Joy: No results, yeah.
Tracy: Right. But I mean, it doesn't work that way. And it's the same thing for learning how to rest.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy: It took literal years until I could sit on the couch and do nothing-
Josh: Years?
Tracy: ... but play. Yeah, I'm sorry.
Dr. Joy: Yeah, but what you're talking about, Tracy, though, is practicing both the rest but also practicing kindness and grace to yourself, which is something else that we aren't all really good at.
Tracy: Uh-huh (affirmative)
Dr. Joy: For lots of different reasons, and so, you know, being kind to yourself and talking to yourself like you would a best friend.
Tracy: Yeah.
Dr. Joy: Like if your best friend told you they were exhausted, you wouldn't be like, "Girl, get up. Stop being stupid and go do that work."
Tracy: Amen.
Dr. Joy: Right? Like you would say, "You know, let's lay do. You know, put on a meditation track or put on some soothing music." Like you would be very gentle with them. But we aren't always that same way with ourselves, and so it is again, a practice of being gentle and kind with ourselves the way we are with other people we love.
[CLIP] Working really makes you happy, like seeing the money makes you happy. Ooh, look at this.
[CLIP] I see a second place trophy but it shouldn’t be in here. It should be in the trash. We don’t keep second place.
[CLIP] Getting up at four ‘o’ clock in the morning before anybody else and grounding my thought process in “no one will outwork me. No one.”
[CLIP] Nobody nothing distract you from the grind time, prime time!
Josh: One thing I've been really conflicted about is the idea of hustle culture, because I feel like it's very on trend right now for everyone to be like, "Hustle culture is bad." But when you think about people coming from like marginalized communities-
Dr. Joy: Right.
Josh: ... and people who came from no money, it makes sense to me that there would be this philosophy around like the way out is the hustle. Like working hard, grinding, doing what you need to do. How do you find balance between the desire to want to outperform, out-do, always be on point, and also be a human being? Where is the balance? Where's the line?
Dr. Joy: Yeah, so I think, you know, with a lot of things that end up being harmful for us, they started from a place of necessity.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Joy: Right? So, you know, yes, a lot of people did have to hustle to kind of pull themselves up and take care of themselves and their family. And can we look at how that's also harmful, right? And so going back to our conversation about how systems have failed us, again, if we had systems that were more functional and actually helpful to people, we wouldn't need this system of hustling because people would have their basic needs taken care of.
Dr. Joy: And so I think it came from a very good place, but I also think it feeds a lot into us just not taking good care of ourselves, right? So when you're hustling in this hustle and grind kind of thing, that means you're probably not sleeping well. You know, you're not giving yourself time to do any grounding or doing the things that can be restorative. So again, I think if we had systems that were actually taking care of people, there would be more room for rest and doing other things that are nurturing.
Tracy: Mm.
Josh: I never had a summer. Like my parents always had me in things. Like I was in like Upward Bound, or I was doing like these things because it was always about “get an education”-
Dr. Joy: Yes.
Josh: ... you'll get a good job, you'll make a great life for yourself. And I know that that feels true to me. It feels like the best way that they knew how to make a way for me.
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: Within the Black community, do you think that there is a certain amount of guilt around the idea of rest?
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: Is it culturally specific?
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah. I mean, I think a lot of us had the same experience, right? Again, when we think about the things that started out to kind of help our survival but that might be harmful now, I think this is one of those things too, right? Like the having to work twice as hard to get half as much-
Josh: Right?
Dr. Joy: ... kind of thing, right? Like a lot of that has been ingrained in us and was actually true at a certain point, right? Like in some cases, it's still true. And so I think when you think about the fact that you always have to be going, you always have to be on top to try to prove your worth, it doesn't go well with laying down and resting. Right? And so I think that there is something culturally specific to that. Typically when Black folks say they're tired, we really are already past the point of exhaustion.
Tracy: Yes.
Josh: Right.
Dr. Joy: Right? Like we have already gone way further than we probably needed to go, and so I think it is an important part of learning to pay attention to our cues from our body that really let us know like, "Okay, you're about to hit that brick wall again."
Josh: Yeah, that makes sense.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: So what advice would you give someone, who-
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: ... say, they just moved to a big metropolitan city and they just got their first apartment and they're getting their first job.
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Josh: And they really want to succeed at this thing, and this system isn't set up for them to prioritize their mental health. How do you advocate for yourself in that way?
Dr. Joy: Yeah, so I think companies, again, capitalism, want us to believe that there should be all this loyalty to your workplace and go above and beyond when you first get somewhere so that you can prove your worthiness and all of that stuff. But a job is really just a job. Right? And so I think that we really need to divorce our worth from our work-
Tracy: Yes.
Dr. Joy: ... and, and pay attention to the fact that like jobs are what keep our lights on. Right? They are the things we need to do to kind of participate in this capitalism, whether we want to or not. But don't overextend yourself. You know, we see like on Twitter, on the timeline, like somebody will pass or, you know, somebody will share a story about somebody passing and then the job announcement is up like the next week.
Tracy: Right?
Josh: Right.
Dr. Joy: You know, and so I think we really have to be careful of overextending ourselves and like just feeding into these systems that really are just not loyal to us. You know, so you go to work and you do your thing. But then you've got to save the best for you. You can't give all of the best of you to these workplaces who aren't going to take care of you.
Tracy: Seriously. So I think all of that complicates or all of that is complicated by us working from home. Right? Because home is supposed to be where we go to get away from work.
Dr. Joy: Yes.
Tracy: And that doesn't exist now for a lot of us who are working from home, like Josh is literally in his closet right now. (laughing)
Dr. Joy: Right.
Tracy: You know? So like what should we keep in mind when we're trying to strike this balance, but we're in the same physical space all the time?
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Tracy: Like a thing that my therapist told me was like, have a dedicated space for work and keep work there.
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Tracy: And I'm good at that for a week, and then I'm on my couch, answering emails, girl, you know?
Dr. Joy: Yes.
Tracy: Like what-
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Tracy: ... what are some tips, some hacks for working from home?
Dr. Joy: Yeah. So your therapist is on point, and I (laughs) think just like with anything, like we practice and sometimes we do okay, and sometimes we don't, but it's always a practice, right? So if one week you're doing well and next week you slip, then hopefully-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: ... you get back on track the following week. Right? Um, but that is absolutely right. So setting very strong physical boundaries, if you can-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: ... and so if you can keep work to the dining room table, if you have a dedicated office space, then that is a really good thing to do. Also having routines that mark the end of the work day can be really good.
Tracy: Yes.
Dr. Joy: So a lot of people will like do a workout or something at the end of their work day, or will take a shower and like physically change into new clothes, so that is like a very clear demarcation of “the work day is done.”
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: Um, I also think it's more important now more than ever to take all of those work apps off of your phone. So all the Slack and email and stuff like that, like leave it on your computer-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: ... so that you're not even tempted to kinda go into the work email after the work day is done.
Tracy: Mm- hmm (affirmative)-
Josh: I'm conflicted about the whole work from home thing in general.
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Josh: Right? Because I hear so many of my friends be like, "Do you know how productive I am now that I don't have to deal with microaggressions at work?" (laughs)
Dr. Joy: Yes.
Tracy: Right.
Josh: (laughs) But then at the same time, I feel like people who are in positions where they might not have as much power, usually are able to get more power by being in front of their bosses. And once you're like out of sight, out of mind, the power dynamics as they sit are usually how they flow. So like maybe-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Josh: ... you won't even get the things that you need-
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Josh: ... in order to feel supported at work or whatever.
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Josh: So like, I know that it's a privilege to even be able to work from home in the first place-
Tracy: Right.
Josh: But do you think that it's helpful to work from home? Or do you think it's actually making us feel more isolated?
Dr. Joy: I think it has been helpful for a lot of people. I mean, I think the flexibility it’s offered people has been really good. I also have heard from a lot of, especially black women around those microaggressions. Right? So like that it-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: ... feels so good. I mean, and it is sad, right? Like the bar really is in hell, that like-
Josh: Right. (laughing)
Dr. Joy: ... that, you know, that this is what feels like an improvement, that I just don't have to deal with people trying to touch my hair or asking about these-
Josh: Right.
Dr. Joy: ... random questions. Um, but it's the truth, it's where we are in the world. And so I think a lot of people do feel better like that they can just focus on the work task and not have to deal with all that other stuff, I think they enjoy working from home. But I think it varies, right? Like some people really enjoy those like little interactions they have with coworkers at work-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Tracy: ... or being able to go to lunch and, you know, like those kinds of things, like some people really appreciate and enjoy that thing. And so I do think some people are struggling, but I think that, that's the key, right? Is that people should have a choice. Right?
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: You know, and I think so much of this push to come back into the office is about corporations trying to manage their own anxiety-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: ... and also again, paying attention to the- the top line. Right? Like they don't wanna lose money on rent and stuff and not have bodies in those offices.
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: But I don't get it because it's like, wouldn't it be cheaper to just be like, yo, we're not gonna rent for this office, like work from home?
Dr. Joy: (laughs) You would think, you would think, but I think there probably are also kinda breaks and stuff. Who knows how all of those-
Tracy: Yeah.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: ... like big-
Tracy: It's all green.
Dr. Joy: Yeah. It's- it's all money involved. I don't know all exactly, but I feel like a lot of it is related to people kind of paying attention to their bottom line and micromanaging. Right?
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: So if I can see you, I know that you have a better chance of working-
Tracy: Right.
Dr. Joy: ... even though so many people will tell you, like their productivity has increased from being home, 'cause they can kinda get where they need to get done and then have time to, you know, do whatever they want.
Tracy: Yeah. Plus I don't have to wear pants at home, it's so comfortable. (laughing)
Dr. Joy: Right. I can stay on my slippers-
Tracy: You know?
Dr. Joy: ... it is so much better.
Tracy: If I'm over here, all constricted and stuff in belts and stuff, I'm not comfortable, (laughs) I'm not thinking about work, I'm thinking about the moment I can go home and get out of this bra, like just-
Dr. Joy: Exactly.
Tracy: ... let me exist. (laughs) So what happens when you don't have a choice and you have to go back into the office? Like what can people in those situations do to retain some of the peace and the calm that they may have found while they were working at home when it's time to go back to the office?
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Well, you know, Tracy, I think that's why we are seeing a lot of people leaving certain jobs.
Tracy: That's true.
Dr. Joy: Right? I mean, you know, there is a huge influx of people who are just saying, "You know what? I'm just not doing it."
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: And a lot of companies have also now opted for remote positions so that there are more jobs-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: ... on the market for people who maybe don't want to return to jobs where they are physically required to go.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: Um, but I do understand that some people, you know, even if they don't wanna go back into a building, it kinda is a part of the job-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: ... and so I think for them, it is about doing what you need to do to take care of yourself, to keep yourself safe. So, you know, if you can be vaccinated, if you can continue to wear a mask, like all of those things, but also working to see where you can get some support as a mass body-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: ... of people. Right? So if there is some change or something that you want to happen in the workplace, are there enough of you or enough people that you can get together to like go to somebody in charge and say, "We would like to see this thing happen." And typically-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: ... it is better if you can get enough people to do that as opposed to one voice.
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Tracy: You are just full of so much good advice. I swear sometimes I ask these questions (laughs) and I'm just like, there's no answer. There's just no possible answer. (laughs)
Dr. Joy: (laughs) I mean, that doesn't mean that it will work. It doesn't mean-
Tracy: True.
Dr. Joy: ... it'll work, but it definitely is something to try.
Josh: With everything that we've laid out, with all the stuff that we're going through, all the traumas that it feels like are just coming back to back to back to back-
Dr. Joy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Josh: ... do you feel hopeful at all?
Dr. Joy: There are days I feel hopeful, but you know-
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: ... there are some days that I feel like, oh my gosh, what are we even gonna do now?
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: But I think that is where staying connected to joy and doing things that feel restorative, allow you to get back to a place of hopefulness. And I also think that that's the importance of the collective, right?
Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: That we don't all have to be hopeful at the same time, but if we are resting and taking care of ourselves, then the circle has us. Right?
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Dr. Joy: Like there- there are people who can hold up the front while some of us are laying down.
Tracy: That is so beautiful.
Josh: That is so beautiful. (laughing)
Tracy: I'm gonna cry. (laughs)
Josh: So I'ma take a nap and you hold me down.
Tracy: Right.
Dr. Joy: Exactly. [crosstalk]
Tracy: Right.
Dr. Joy: Isn't that what we do, right? Like you working in the store, you like girl, I got a headache, I gotta go lay down. And somebody's like, "Okay, I got you. I'll let you know if the boss is coming." Right.
Tracy: Right.
Dr. Joy: Like that's the same kinda thing.
Tracy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Josh: Yeah. I love that.
Tracy: Oh, so Josh, when you can't be hopeful, send me a text message, maybe I'll be able to be helpful for- for you. (laughing) Say maybe. (laughing).
Josh: Well, thank you, Dr. Joy.
Tracy: This is amazing.
Josh: Where can everyone find your work?
Dr. Joy: Yeah, you can find everything I have going on at therapyforblackgirls.com and also hellodrjoy.com.
[Ending Credits music]
Tracy: Back Issue is a production of Pineapple Street Studios.
Josh: This show was created and is hosted by Tracy Clayton.
Tracy: That's me and Josh Gwynn.
Josh: That's me.
Tracy: Our senior producer is also Josh Gwynn and our lead producer is Emmanuel Hapsis.
Josh: Our managing producer is John Asante.
Tracy: Our senior editor is Leila Day.
Josh: Our associate producers are Alexis Moore, Xandra Ellin and Brianna Garrett. Our intern is Arlene Arevalo. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky and our engineers are Raj Makhija and Davy Sumner.
Tracy: This show also features amazing music by the one and only Don Will. You can follow him on all the socials @DonWill and listen to his music. He's really, really good. And you can follow me on all the social shows @brokeymcpoverty. My album's not out yet, but stay tuned.
Josh: (laughs) My single, my single is dropping. (laughs) You can follow me @regardingjosh on all the socials. You can follow the show @backissuepodcast on Instagram, you can subscribe to this podcast wherever free podcasts are sold, you can leave us a review-
Tracy: Do it, do it, five stars.
Josh: ... and you can call the Back Issue hotline with your pop culture emergency at 678-74Issue.
Tracy: Okay. So y'all get to calling and subscribing and then we're gonna go lay down, go lay down. (laughs) It's my remix, and I'm sorry. Bye. (laughs)
Josh: See you next week.
-----THE END-----