BACK ISSUE
In Our Silk Press Era
In the first episode of Season 3, Josh and Tracy are talking about hair HAIR, but this isn't just any old hair talk. No discoveries on how to get a magical texture by slapping on ointments and berry juices. Today we're discussing the timeline textures, getting into the stigmas around certain styles, and talking about the gendered and queered politics of hair with special guest Carvell Wallace. What is our hair really telling us about ourselves? And more importantly, how will Josh feel after his first silk press?
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION
Vox Pop Audio: Can you describe your hair? I've got cornrows right now. I have locks. A lot of people call them dreadlocks, but I call them locks. A bit rough, a bit like steel wool at times. If I can keep it moisturized, it'll get maybe like a wet sponge.
Vox Pop Audio: All right. What does your hair say about you? What does my hair say about me? Man, that's a great question. Definitely can't deny that I'm a black man. Says that I'm black because this is a common haircut within the black community. Free spirit. I can do what I want with my hair, really. Definitely shows my age. I do have a full beard. I don't have any hair on my head. So that also shows a bit of age as well. It's expressive, it's black expression I feel.
Back Issue Intro: Beyonce? You look like Luther Vandross. Ho, but make it fashion. I don't get no sleep because of y'all. It's Britney, bitch. We were rooting for you, Tiffany. We were all rooting for you. But I ain’t one to gossip… Who said that
Josh Gywnn: Welcome to Back Issue.
Tracy Clayton: A weekly podcast that revisits formative moments in pop culture that we still think about.
Josh Gywnn: This week Willow, she whips it back and forth.
Tracy Clayton: Solange reminded you not to touch it.
Josh Gywnn: India.Arie is not it.
Tracy Clayton: We're talking about hair.
Josh Gywnn: Hair.
Tracy Clayton: Hurr, if you're from the Midwest.
Josh Gywnn: I rock and stuff with my Afro Puffs and I'm Josh Gywnn.
Tracy Clayton: I am not my hair either, and I'm Tracy Clayton.
Josh Gywnn: Hey, Tracy.
Tracy Clayton: Hi, friend. This is so exciting. I can't believe that for the first time we are recording in the exact same room.
Josh Gywnn: We're in the same room.
Tracy Clayton: For the first time.
Josh Gywnn: Ever.
Tracy Clayton: How old is this podcast? Two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight years?
Josh Gywnn: We're in season three.
Tracy Clayton: This is wild.
Josh Gywnn: I'm happy that we get to be in the same room because today we're going to talk about hair.
Tracy Clayton: Yay.
Josh Gywnn: It's something we talk about all the time.
Tracy Clayton: All the time. We just talked about your hair. And we're not going to do your basic YouTube tutorial.
Josh Gywnn: Been there.
Tracy Clayton: Here's how to elongate your curls and do ... They all lie anyway. Do you know how much time I have lost of my life?
Josh Gywnn: Do you know how many times I've made flaxseed gel? Do you know how many times it's actually held my hair in any sort of form?
Tracy Clayton: I'm going to guess zero?
Josh Gywnn: Zero.
Tracy Clayton: One time I put egg in my hair and when I rinsed it out, the water was too hot. So it cooked in my hair.
Josh Gywnn: It cooked it?
Tracy Clayton: Yes.
Josh Gywnn: One time I put avocado in my hair and I didn't strain it and so I just had pieces of avocado in my hair. People calling me Chipotle and shit.
Tracy Clayton: We walking around like whole fruit salads out here. That's not the conversation that we're going to have. We are clearly in no position to give anybody advice. So instead what we're going to do, we're going to get a little bit deeper.
Josh Gywnn: We're going to talk about how hair makes us feel.
Tracy Clayton: Right.
Josh Gywnn: Our feelings.
Tracy Clayton: My hair makes me mad these days.
Josh Gywnn: Really?
Tracy Clayton: Yeah. I'm over it. I am.
Josh Gywnn: Wait, why?
Tracy Clayton: I'm bored. I don't have the energy, I got a big head.
Josh Gywnn: Me too.
Tracy Clayton: There's a whole lot happening. It's too much. How does hair make you feel? How do braids make you feel?
Josh Gywnn: Amazing. Because I don't have to wake up and do my hair. I used to do my own individuals and I used to do my own faux locks.
Tracy Clayton: Had a whole wash day routine.
Josh Gywnn: And I would-
Tracy Clayton: Used to keep track on the calendar what day I put sulfates in my hand.
Josh Gywnn: Exactly.
Tracy Clayton: When did I co-wash? Yeah, child, that was me too.
Josh Gywnn: Exactly. Making my own apothecary in my New York apartment.
Tracy Clayton: Oh my gosh.
Josh Gywnn: With all the butters and oils. The smell goods.
Tracy Clayton: The product junkiness of it all.
Josh Gywnn: I had a blender that was dedicated to hair.
Tracy Clayton: Okay, that's a little wild. I didn't have a special blender.
Josh Gywnn: I wasn't going to use the one that I used for my smoothies on my head.
Tracy Clayton: It makes sense.
Josh Gywnn: That's nasty.
Tracy Clayton: I don't recommend doing that.
Josh Gywnn: But all of you with the shea butter and stuff that you got from 125 Street.
Tracy Clayton: You was fancy.
Josh Gywnn: Put the essential oils in it so it smells good. So in this episode, we really want to get into all things hair. And specifically, Tracy, one thing that I've noticed about hair recently is the amount of men in this conversation. I don't remember a lot of men being present on YouTube-
Tracy Clayton: During the movement, right.
Josh Gywnn: ... during the movement, but now you see on TikTok, on YouTube, you see a lot more men participating and growing their hair out and participating in the tutorials and what works for them and putting their product against their palm on camera.
Tracy Clayton: Tutorial style.
Josh Gywnn: So those voices you heard at the beginning of the episode, they were all black men from Atlanta talking about what their hair said about them. And here they are talking about how they keep their hair together, what their routine is.
Vox Pop Audio: Do you have a haircare routine? I do have a haircare routine. So at least I would say about three times a week I make sure I do a deep shampoo conditioner routine. I do like a washing style. Not necessarily a routine. It just depends on whatever style I'm looking for. It depends on whatever product I'll use. I do tie my hair up at night. In the morning I may spray it with water. I get my deep conditioning, I put the deep conditioning in my hair, leave it there for like 30 minutes. I try to keep the top low because I got a little George Jefferson situation going on. Put durag back on, keep it on for the night. Wake up, smooth, soft, wavy.
Josh Gywnn: But I want to talk about how gender and race are both at play when we talk about black hair, how certain hairstyles are acceptable for black men and some are acceptable for black women. And how this conversation about black hair in general is becoming more and more inclusive.
Tracy Clayton: How are we going to do this?
Josh Gywnn: I think first we should start with the historical beats. You know how I love a timeline.
Tracy Clayton: Right.
Josh Gywnn: Then I want to talk to Carvell Wallace. He's a writer, a podcaster, and he talks a lot about gender and sexuality. So we can talk about how gender and sexuality get performed through the hair for black men in particular.
Tracy Clayton: See, deep. These are the conversations that we're trying to have.
Josh Gywnn: And finally, you know what I'm going to do?
Tracy Clayton: Oh lord. What?
Josh Gywnn: I have an idea.
Tracy Clayton: Oh Lord. What?
Josh Gywnn: I want to actually get a silk press.
Tracy Clayton: Do it. Do it. Do it. Do it.
Josh Gywnn: Okay.
Tracy Clayton: Do it. Yay.
Josh Gywnn: I'll do anything for a story. You know me.
Tracy Clayton: I love it. So dedicated to your craft. Also, kind of impressionable.
Josh Gywnn: You are welcome. Let's do it.
Tracy Clayton: All right. So we need to go back in history a little bit. Now it's the 1800s.
Josh Gywnn: Oh no, where's Octavia butler?
Tracy Clayton: Oh no. Take us back, Lord. Bring us back. Okay. But we need to look back because as time changes and evolves, so do politics. So does our way of life.
Josh Gywnn: So does fashion.
Tracy Clayton: So does fashion, and so do hairstyles in direct relation to societies evolving and changing, right?
Josh Gywnn: Right. We're about to ease on down the road and do what I like to call a timeline. Let's hop in our little time machine. Marty McFly vibes.
Tracy Clayton: So let's go early 20th century.
Josh Gywnn: Okay.
Tracy Clayton: Can anyone think of what was happening during this time?
Josh Gywnn: Racism.
Tracy Clayton: Yes. Trick question. Happening all the time.
Josh Gywnn: Always.
Tracy Clayton: So think Madame CJ Walker, she's always one of the first people that we hear about during Black History Month. She's one of the first people that young kids learn about. Madame CJ Walker built a hair empire. She was, I think one of the first black women millionaires.
Josh Gywnn: Self-made.
Tracy Clayton: And she did that selling products to black women to help them straighten their hair, right?
Josh Gywnn: Yeah.
Tracy Clayton: And black women straightened their hair because they were assimilating into the larger white culture. White people had straight hair. So that's what was seen as beautiful and acceptable.
Josh Gywnn: And professional.
Tracy Clayton: And professional. Child, that has not changed. That has not changed.
Josh Gywnn: Isn't that wild?
Tracy Clayton: Did I ever tell you about this terrible coworker I used to have who always said some slick shit about my hair?
Josh Gywnn: No.
Tracy Clayton: Okay, real quick.
Josh Gywnn: Madam CJ Walker, we'll be right back.
Tracy Clayton: Wait, hold on. Hold on, girl. Hold on. I was working as a receptionist for a nonprofit back home in Louisville. There was this white woman and this one time she brought her kids to the office and she's introducing me to her children. She's like, "Here's Tracy with the crazy hair."
Josh Gywnn: Oh no.
Tracy Clayton: And it's like a wash and go. You know what I mean? It's not even fucking crazy. And so unfortunately I had to get my hair straightened so I could get it trimmed. And I'm like, I know she's going to say something at work. I know she is.
Josh Gywnn: She's going to say, "Oh my God, how nice does your hair look?"
Tracy Clayton: She came in and she went, "You look so professional today."
Josh Gywnn: Oh my god.
Tracy Clayton: So friends, imagine that, but like a billion times worse.
Josh Gywnn: So Madame CJ Walker, come here, come here.
Tracy Clayton: Come here girl. Come here girl.
Josh Gywnn: Ain't shit changed.
Tracy Clayton: Same shit, different toilet girl. So you got folks straightening their hair just like as the norm. In 1909, the first ever hair relaxer. Also, can we talk about the terminology? Like relax?
Josh Gywnn: Relaxer.
Tracy Clayton: Why? My hair's not stressed out.
Josh Gywnn: It's not agitated.
Tracy Clayton: So in 1909, the first, quote, unquote "relaxer" was invented on accident by Garrett A Morgan.
Josh Gywnn: How do you know to put it on your head?
Tracy Clayton: Right? I do have a lot of questions.
Josh Gywnn: But let's note, obviously black people were not just replicating the look of white people. Writer Harriette Cole said, "It wasn't just about looking like white folks in straightening their hair, black men had created a look that was wholly unique. It was neither naturally textured nor white hair."
Tracy Clayton: Somewhere in between. Also, this is when we start to see the emergence of a style called ... I can't say this.
Josh Gywnn: The conk.
Tracy Clayton: The conk.
Josh Gywnn: It's the ...
Tracy Clayton: Conk. Conk.
Josh Gywnn: That's the perfect example of something that's neither naturally textured, nor is it white hair.
Tracy Clayton: Right.
Josh Gywnn: A white man's not growing that.
Tracy Clayton: No, no.
Josh Gywnn: But it also doesn't look like you grew it naturally.
Tracy Clayton: It's coming naturally. Exactly. Exactly. I feel like possibly one of the most famous conks in history, Duke Ellington.
IT DON’T MEAN A THING MUX
Josh Gywnn: Malcolm X wore his hair in a conk briefly, and this instance was immortalized in the film Malcolm X in 1992.
Tracy Clayton: I can see it in my head.
CLIP: How's it feel?
CLIP: It feels like I ain't go no skin on my head.
CLIP: If you can talk…
CLIP: It's straight though, right? I ain't doing this again.
Josh Gywnn: Him screaming and yelling into the sink, "Oh my God, it hurts so much. How's it look?" Anybody that's gotten a perm or a texturizer identifies with that moment.
Tracy Clayton: Listen, my scalp hurts right now, just remembering.
CLIP: Looks white, don’t it?
Tracy Clayton: Looks white, don't it? Such a good movie.
Josh Gywnn: The fact that Malcolm X is like, "Looks white, don't it?"
Tracy Clayton: That was the goal.
Josh Gywnn: He described getting a conk as the first really big step towards self-degradation, saying, quote, "When I endured all that pain, literally burning my flesh to have it look like white man's hair, I have joined the multitude of Negro men and women in America who are brainwashed into believing that the black people are inferior and white people superior, that they will even violate and mutilate their God created bodies to try to look pretty by white standards."
Tracy Clayton: That made me feel bad for ever getting a perm.
Josh Gywnn: It's like, I really am about people having autonomy over their body and being able to do what the fuck they want with their own body.
Tracy Clayton: And this is what we were talking about when we talked about the evolution. Because once upon a time, yes, people did straighten their hair because they wanted it to look white. Time goes on. We learn more about ourselves and our history and our culture. We gained the ability, or should have gained the ability to separate the actual hairstyle from its origins and just do with your hair what you want to do with it. I remember towards the tail end of my permed life, there's this one girl who used to give me shit about perming my hair all the time. So I double downed on it. Like, not only will I straighten my hair, I'll straighten it too much. In your face. And it's complicated.
Josh Gywnn: It's complicated.
Tracy Clayton: It is complicated.
Josh Gywnn: But I love what happens next on this timeline because it's like Malcolm X is saying there's a racial thing that's happening, but with this next group, it's like a rock and roll-
Tracy Clayton: Yes, yes, yes.
Josh Gywnn: ... I'm pretty type of-
Tracy Clayton: Let's get into that. Now we are in the 1950s and '60s, and this is where the pompadour becomes a popular style among black men. So perhaps most famous among these men sporting the pompadour.
Tracy and Josh: Woo! Shut up!
Tracy Clayton: The one and only Little Richard, child.
Josh Gywnn: The architect of rock and roll.
CLIP: Some of the ladies asked me if that was all your hair.
CLIP: Yes it is. It's mine. I paid cash for it. Every bit of it.
Josh Gywnn: There was this TV show back in the day on Nickelodeon called Taina and it was the bomb. And the villain on the show, her name was Maritza and she used to wear a weave and the lead and her best friend were like, "Girl."
CLIP: Where'd that hair come from?
CLIP: My roots. You know, the headstone on Pellham Parkway.
Josh Gywnn: I thought it was the funniest thing I'd ever seen in my life. But Little Richard, man. His hair was fly.
Tracy Clayton: It was fly and he was so ...
Josh Gywnn: Bombastic.
Tracy Clayton: ... in your face uncaring about it.
Josh Gywnn: Then we get to the '60s, into the real meat of the civil rights movement. And as we know, this is when everyone starts wearing their hair au natural. Black is beautiful. The bigger the natural. I love when people call it a natural.
Tracy Clayton: Yes, it's so old school. We should start doing it again.
Josh Gywnn: We should start calling it a natural. Everyone calls it an afro, but one of my parents or my grandparents is like, "You wearing your hair in a natural?" It makes my heart sing.
Tracy Clayton: There's this episode of Martin where Pam is dating this dude who's just extra black and militant. Somebody would be like, "Oh, good morning." He'd be like, "What's good about it my brother?" Like that. And so at one point Pam was like, "Gina, I got to tell you something." She was like-
CLIP: I am not allowing you to marry Tyheem. He'll make you take out your weave, make you wear a natural. Girl, you know you can't do that.
Tracy Clayton: I was like, what? I think that might be the first time I heard it referred to as a natural.
Josh Gywnn: Back to the timeline.
Tracy Clayton: So this is when hair becomes a very intentional political statement.
Josh Gywnn: It's a statement.
Tracy Clayton: It is a statement. It's on purpose. It's a conscious choice that you make. Maybe not because you like the way it looks. I assume that everybody did, but there's a reason behind it.
Josh Gywnn: And let's play this clip of an interview of Black Panther member Kathleen Cleaver as she talks about her natural hair and why she decided to wear it. This is in 1968.
CLIP: This brother here, myself, all of us were born with our hair like this and we just wear it like this. The reason for it, you might say, is a new awareness among black people that their own natural physical appearance is beautiful. For so many, many years we were told that only white people were beautiful. Only straight hair, light eyes, light skin was beautiful. And so black women would try everything they could to straighten their hair, lighten their skin, to look as much like white women. But this has changed because black people are aware and white people are aware of it too. Because white people now want natural wigs. They want wigs like this. Dig it? Isn't it beautiful? All right.
Tracy Clayton: I feel emotional.
Josh Gywnn: It makes me want to cry because the fact that a movement that is needed and just needed today just because of our media diet. My Aunt Lorraine had this afro, and when I tell you it looks like ... It was the perfect sphere and it looked like a halo. I just think about how different naturals are now. Now we want them to be textured.
Tracy Clayton: We want to elongate our curls but still say that-
Josh Gywnn: We want definition.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah, exactly.
Josh Gywnn: And they were going for the perfect circle. It's just take up as much space as you can.
Tracy Clayton: Yes, yes. And also this really illustrates the extent to which literally just existing as your natural self means something.
Josh Gywnn: Means something.
Tracy Clayton: All the time. The personal really is political right down to your physical body.
Josh Gywnn: And the political is personal. Looking at the 1960s, you have locks being popularized by Bob Marley and the emergence of reggae in the US. The name has its origins in the slave trade adopted by Rastafarians who modeled them off of soldiers of the Mau Mau rebellion in Kenya.
Tracy Clayton: The story of why they were initially called dreadlocks is that the black warriors who wore their hair like that, they would ride in on horses. And the white folks said that their hair would just flow in the wind as they were riding. And they started to call them dreaded locks because they dreaded their arrival so much. Because they were so fierce. Can I just talk about white dreadlocks real quick? And I say white dreadlocks because dreadlock is a derogatory term. Now they're referenced as locks. White people.
Josh Gywnn: You all still have dreadlocks?
Tracy Clayton: You all still have dreadlocks? That's all I'm going to say. That's all I'm going to say. That's all I'm going to say.
Josh Gywnn: Let's hear Bob Marley talk about his hair.
Tracy Clayton: He was so fine.
CLIP: To tell you the truth, all we do with this is just leave it, wash it, don't comb it. You keep it clean, and dreadlock itself. Because I find that ... No, these separated. Watch this, this is one. This is two.
Josh Gywnn: Locks started becoming adopted by artists and intellectuals. Basquiat, Angela Davis, Alice Walker, Tracy Chapman.
Tracy Clayton: Yes. These are all famous locks.
Josh Gywnn: Let's move into the '80s.
Tracy Clayton: (singing) Just let your self glow baby.
Josh Gywnn: Moving into the '80s.
Tracy Clayton: (singing) Oh, so silky smooth.
Josh Gywnn: We started to see the S curl and Jheri curl gaining real promise. Soul glow and wave nouveau. Don't leave out wave nouveau.
Tracy Clayton: Oh my gosh. Where does the Duke fall in there? Is Duke an S curl?
Josh Gywnn: It's like phylum, genus, species.
Tracy Clayton: Duke is to S curl as wave nouveau is to ... Man, that's a science.
Josh Gywnn: You know that they're bringing back Jheri curls?
Tracy Clayton: Yes.
Josh Gywnn: And I was like, what?
Tracy Clayton: I saw that. I cannot remember a time where it was cool or cute to have a Jheri curl. Whenever I saw it in media, black folks were talking about it and they were talking about it in a negative way or they were making fun of it.
Josh Gywnn: Like In Living Color?
Tracy Clayton: Yes.
CLIP: Rodney, tell the people out there what happened to you as a result of your Jheri curl.
Josh Gywnn: So Jim Carrey walks over to friend of the show ,Tommy Davidson. And his hair is the focal point. It's curly, it's slippery, it's wet, it's dripping.
CLIP: First it was the in thing to do, man. Everybody had one. Then things started going bad, man. My woman left me, man, because she got tired of washing the pillow covers, man.
Josh Gywnn: That is hilarious. We have Laurence Fishburne in School Days using Samuel L Jackson's curl as a rebuttal to his blackness.
CLIP: Are you black?
CLIP: Hey, look man, don't ever question the fact whether I'm black. In fact, I was going to ask your country Bama, why you got them drip, drip chemicals in your head. And then come out in public with a shower cap on your head.
CLIP: Like a fucking bitch.
CLIP: Who you calling a bitch, bitch?
Josh Gywnn: Who you calling a bitch, bitch?
Tracy Clayton: So we go from the natural, like super black, super proud. And then it's like folks wanted to be natural, but they also wanted to ...
Josh Gywnn: Dab.
Tracy Clayton: Exactly. Exactly. Then you got the curl, and then eventually it becomes a sign of you selling out, basically. Although they do just seem really messy.
Josh Gywnn: At one point in middle school, I was like the king of the texturizer. I loved a texturizer. And then I went on a trip and didn't have access to getting more of it.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, what happened?
Josh Gywnn: And so the point of demarcation on the hair strand got too high and all of my hair broke off in the shower.
Tracy Clayton: What?
Josh Gywnn: All of it. It was traumatic.
Tracy Clayton: So you all went through it to get them little waves in.
Josh Gywnn: Take me to the '90s.
Tracy Clayton: All right, it's the '90s. This is so dope because here's where we see the invention of a hairstyle that has not yet existed. Folks had their naturals, but they did not have their naturals in the shape of a very high top box on top of their head.
Josh Gywnn: Geometry.
Tracy Clayton: You know what I'm saying? I did get an A in that one semester. Obviously when you think of a high top fade, you think of Kid from Kid 'n Play.
Josh Gywnn: Kid 'n Play walking down the street and the police stopping him and being like-
CLIP: Hey, eraser head.
Tracy Clayton: Right. Oh my gosh. Oh my goodness. It's so interesting though. I want to know who was the first person who was like, you know what? This afro is dope, but you know what would be doper? If it was a square.
Josh Gywnn: You know what probably happened?
Tracy Clayton: What?
Josh Gywnn: And this is not verified, do not come at me if this is wrong, but innovation usually comes out of tragedy. You know the story for Salt-N-Pepa and how they wore asymmetrical cuts?
Tracy Clayton: No, what's the story?
Josh Gywnn: It's because they burned half of their head off in a perm.
CLIP: My sister just got her little beautician license and permed my hair and burnt it all and messed it up. And I had to shave that side and I looked at Salt like, oh, what am I going to do? We just shaved it and kept this side and shaved that side because I was bald. It was wrong.
Tracy Clayton: What?
Josh Gywnn: And so they wore asymmetrical cuts and then it became in style and everybody started wearing them. So maybe-
Tracy Clayton: Wow, because that was the look.
Josh Gywnn: That was the look for a while. So maybe something happened one day and the barber was like, oops. And he had to cut around.
Tracy Clayton: He was like, check us out. I got it. I got you. I got you. I got you. Also, if you are drinking a beverage right now, please pour a little bit out for Steve Harvey's high top fade wig that he came out of very dramatically to go bald. (singing) This song's dedicated to Steve Harvey and his boss ass wig. I just wanted to sing for you all.
Josh Gywnn: Mr. Hightower.
Tracy Clayton: Mr. Hightower.
Josh Gywnn: I know the durag is back in a big way, but not only as a styling tool, but as a fashion item itself.
Tracy Clayton: So when did that happen? Was it in the '90s that people started ...
Josh Gywnn: Just wearing them as-
Tracy Clayton: ... coordinating them with their clothes?
Josh Gywnn: Mm-hmm. And getting the velvet ones.
Tracy Clayton: With the long cape sometimes.
Josh Gywnn: I love the long Cape.
Tracy Clayton: Man. See, now how come the durag was accepted outside the house, but bonnets to this day-
Josh Gywnn: Misogynoir.
Tracy Clayton: Damn. Thanks for coming to your Ted talk.
Josh Gywnn: And that sort of brings us to today. Tracy, my dear, I want to move from the historical to the personal.
Tracy Clayton: Let's do it.
Josh Gywnn: I want to know, Tracy, what's a hairstyle for you that you felt the most confident, the most beautiful, the most bad bitch energy from and why?
Tracy Clayton: Honestly, I felt that way when I was in high school and I just got a fresh touch up. And my hair was really long then, when it was straight, it came down mid back and I felt like Aaliyah and I just felt like it was the hippest I've ever been. I was not a particularly hip child, but that was always the one thing that would get people to turn their heads or compliment me. It would always be like, "Oh, your hair is so cute. Your hair is so long." So I think that's it. That's a good question. What about you?
Josh Gywnn: There was a time where I grew my hair the second longest it's ever been. And I had the haircut that was very popular uptown at the time where the sides are shaved, like faded. But the top and the back are long, like a frohawk. Asher used to have this haircut, but I had grown my hair out long with the style. And I remember I was going to get my hair braided one time, and the lady next to me was like, "Your hair's so pretty." And I was like, "Thank you." But it really made my year.
Tracy Clayton: I can feel it. Residually.
Josh Gywnn: I felt so seen. Well, I want to throw it to a quick break and then I'm going to sit down with writer/podcaster Carvell Wallace for a conversation about what all of this means in the context of gender and queerness and blackness.
Tracy Clayton: It's going to be so good.
Josh Gywnn: It's going to be so popping.
Tracy Clayton: Excite.
*****MID-ROLL AD BREAK*****
Vox Pop Audio: Do you consider certain hairstyles masculine and others feminine? Ooh, yes. Yes. Yeah. Nah, I don't know. Yes and no. Because I feel like I've seen rock stars who got the long hair like women do, and they able to rock it and pull it off. And you see some women who got the hair like I do, and they're able to do the same thing, pull it off. So I'd probably say no. I wouldn't say it's a difference.
Vox Pop Audio: Yes, unfortunately, I see certain hairstyles on men and they don't look very masculine. More or less straightened hair. It just depends on who does it, honestly. There's certain types of braids that is feminine and there's certain types of braids that ... Well, nah, not really. I don't know if ... I believe that there's definite feminine styles. But masculine styles? I'm not sure.
Josh Gywnn: Back Issue and we're back. And I want to throw to a conversation I had with Carvell Wallace, pronouns he/they. He's a New York Times bestselling writer, an award-winning podcaster. And I sat down with this culture critic about town and asked him to describe his hair for me.
Carvell Wallace: Today, I have it just kind of down and out, down and out, kind of curly. I have been growing it since pandemic started. The main goal I had was two French braids, two twin French braids. That was the vision that came to me that I was like, I want to grow my hair long enough for that. So now it's a little curly, a little leave-in conditioner, ringlets type vibe is what I have going on today.
Josh Gywnn: In the context of thinking of hair as a performance of gender, as a queer person, are there hairstyles that you feel like were culturally off limits to you?
Carvell Wallace: Well, it was really interesting growing up because I remember feeling this intense pressure to perform masculine gender from a very early age. And the barbershop was definitely the high priest-
Josh Gywnn: Let's talk about it.
Carvell Wallace: ... of that force. That was the belly of the beast. And my dad, who was not in my life a lot, but when I was with them and when we would go into the barbershop to get a haircut, everybody knew what they were doing. They knew what to ask for. They knew the lingo, they knew how to talk about this, that, and I felt like I was in this world where I was just very quickly trying to learn the language. And so I only wanted a haircut that would keep me from having any difficulty in that space. You know what I'm saying?
Josh Gywnn: To the depth of me, I understand what you're saying. Yeah.
Carvell Wallace: So if people were going to do a little Caesar with a little fade, guess who's doing a little Caesar with a little fade? If you were going to do maybe a little ducktail or something like that, I guess that's what we're doing. To me, it was very much about just trying to not have anyone look at me like, what the fuck is wrong with this nigger? Why is he weird? You know what I mean? I was just trying to stay under the radar as a child. So I didn't even let myself acknowledge the stuff that I wanted because I knew it would be too hard for me to hide that in these spaces.
Josh Gywnn: For real. I feel like there's this internal compass that we have, it's just cultural literacy of what makes a hairstyle for men and what makes a hairstyle for women. But if you had to do the work of describing what goes in which category, how would you do it?
Carvell Wallace: It's funny because I remember I was an adult before it really dawned on me. I was in my 20s, and the part of this has to do with growing up in the '80s when gender was different, but I was in my 20s before I realized that men and women quite literally have the same hair. It took me a few weeks to be like, wait, there's really no factual difference between the hair on a man's head and the hair on a woman's head. There's no difference. So that was one of my huge gender blowups because I'm like, well then why do we perceive of them so differently and why do we treat it so differently? And so I think what I was taught of men's hairstyles is that it should appear not fussy. You haven't gone out of your way to look good for anyone. Secretly you have, but you're supposed to look like you haven't gone out of your way. You haven't primped and preened at all. That's lady stuff. You just look functional and professional and you can take care of things and handle things and bring home a check.
Josh Gywnn: Aesthetics. Who's that? I don't care. Functionality. That's what it is.
Carvell Wallace: Exactly. Yeah. And so I think that even starting in the 2010s, you started seeing more people rock long hairstyles and how black folks rocked long hairstyles. And even there, I think the thing is it has to be faded on the side in order for your masculinity to remain intact. There has to still be that sharp line and that sharp fade that indicates, yeah, this is up here, but to keep it a hundred, I'm still a dude. Let's not get twisted. Don't forget. And so that is what I think of stereotypically. With women, I think about this all the time because I look at all the different hairstyles the women in my family wear. And the thing I love about black women's hair, which I realize is complicated, is that you will see a black woman in your life wear 40 different hairstyles in a year. They'll be the braids, then the this, then the that, then they come back with the free things.
Josh Gywnn: When wigs came around?
Carvell Wallace: And you're just like, yo, you're endless. This is endless beauty. The options are all there. And I love that. And so I think that's the thing that now even just having grown my hair out, I've gotten a little bit of that. The last time you saw me, I had some braids. Last time you saw me, I had a some twists. This time I have a fro. Next time you see me it might be up in a bun. I get to use my hair as a way to express something about myself in ways that I didn't get to do when I felt confined to a typically male hairstyle.
Josh Gywnn: So I grew up in California outside of Los Angeles, but both my parents are from Long Beach. And I used to go there every weekend. And I agree with everything that you said in terms of how you were breaking down.
Carvell Wallace: I know exactly where you're going with this.
Josh Gywnn: Exactly, how we're breaking down men's hairstyle and women's hairstyle. But there was always this asterisk to me where it was like, except for a silk press.
Carvell Wallace: Yep, except for basically pimps and everything pimp adjacent style wise, aesthetically.
Josh Gywnn: So I'm looking at Snoop Dogg and I'm like, why does he get a pass, but nobody else does?
Carvell Wallace: As soon as you said Long Beach, I was like, yeah.
Josh Gywnn: DJ Quik, Al Sharpton.
Carvell Wallace: So this has been my theory about this for a long time. You remember the movie Don't Be a Menace to Society When Drinking Gin and Juice in the Hood? The parody. So remember that that character came out the house, he wore the fuzzy slippers and he had the baby pacifier. You know what I mean?
CLIP: Quick fashioned question, should I wear this Tech 9 with the high tops, or should I wear this Uzi with my low tops? I'll just wear these then.
Carvell Wallace: And so my theory has always been that there is a level of hard that you can be that is only reified if you can get away with doing decidedly un-hard gay looking things and get away with it. This has always been my just working theory, that if you're Snoop, if you're DJ Quick or whatever, you can wear Jheri curls, silk press, this, that because you are so hard that no one would ever question your masculinity. And this performance of softness in the way you dress and how you accessorize yourself and the femininity of your hair goes to only serve to prove how hard you feel.
Josh Gywnn: It's like, try me.
Carvell Wallace: Yeah. It's like, try me. If you have spent all of this time establishing your hardness, then that means that you will harm or threaten or challenge anyone who doesn't behave in a way that affords you the space that you want. Then that's one way to get the space to wear a silk press without having anybody having any issues with it. And the thing is, these people look beautiful to me. If you just take visually. For me, as an aesthetic person, as a Libra, as somebody who thinks about looks and vibes and feels all the time, I love the way black men get beautiful when we get beautiful. And I'm curious about where that comes from and what the history of that is.
Josh Gywnn: Well, do you think that the people that have the try me silk presses are a step closer to their femininity or further away?
Carvell Wallace: This is a cockamamie off the wall theory, so I'll probably get canceled for this, but I don't care. I think that it's almost like a horseshoe effect thing in politics where if you get super masculine, you kind of become feminine again. If you've gone so far in one direction, you are so embedded in your masculinity that you are able to embody all aspects of yourself. And some of those aspects include things that we have been trained are coded as feminine.
Josh Gywnn: You're so masculine that it becomes the village people.
Carvell Wallace: Yes, in some sense. Or, oh, well, Katt Williams is a really good example, because I was thinking about, it's so easy to presume some kind of gender fluidity on the part of Katt Williams because of the way he dresses, acts, talks or whatever.
CLIP: If there's any haters in here right now that don't have nobody to hate on, feel free to hate on me. Sit back there and say, my hair ain't luxurious when you know it is, bitch.
Carvell Wallace: There's not a real whole lot of true, honest to God evidence to support that. It just feels that way. And so part of me thinks that these are people, and I'm not saying it's admirable. I'm saying these are people who are so fully embodied in who they are, unapologetically, without fear, doubt, concern, or second guessing, that they're able to embody aspects of themselves that are in there that maybe the rest of us might have pushed aside because we don't want to be called certain things or go through certain troubles or be hassled in certain ways. These people have allowed those things to flourish and embody them because they're fully themselves. That doesn't mean they're feminists or they're pro woman in any way, shape or form.
Josh Gywnn: It just means that they don't give a fuck.
Carvell Wallace: It just means that they don't give a fuck. And there's something to that.
Josh Gywnn: I want to come back to this idea of the barbershop. What do you think would've happened to you in those spaces if you had asked for extensions or to have your hair straightened?
Carvell Wallace: Oh my God. It's hard for me to imagine me trying to get some extensions. At a barbershop in Landover, Maryland in 1988, that's not going down. I would be snatched out the chair straight up and down. It just wouldn't be ... There's no space for that. No space. And this is the thing I've been thinking a lot about lately, which is, where is there space to be you?
I was just talking with a friend about how it's not that black people are more homophobic because we're not the ones out here passing laws telling people to arrest trans. But for me, when black folks are homophobic, it hurts a thousand times worse.
Josh Gywnn: That's what it is.
Carvell Wallace: It hurts so much worse because I'm like, that's my home. And the gender policing makes it so that people are like, if you don't conform to gender along these lines, it's not just that we'll roast you, it's not just that ... In some cases it's like, no, if you don't do that, you literally don't belong to blackness anymore. You are out of the family. Not just this family, the black family. There's something about that that is so painful, especially for those of us that have been looking for belonging and home and partnership and blackness for all of our lives because we were either separated from it when we were younger or just whatever. And to me, I've been thinking more and more about what it means to find a place that is home and the real grief of knowing that, in many ways, that's not with your family, that's not with your people.
Josh Gywnn: But where is it then?
Carvell Wallace: It's out there. We're here. You know what I'm saying?
Josh Gywnn: That's true. That's true.
Carvell Wallace: We're here. So it's like, I know these places are out there, these little patches of land where I belong. I know they're out there, but the space between them is dry and difficult. And I feel like most of my life is this space between them.
Josh Gywnn: I completely identify with what you're saying. How do you know when you're home? How does it feel?
Carvell Wallace: Well, it's like I don't have to try anymore. I don't have to try. It's not that I don't have to give effort, it's that I don't have to try to be loved. My brain doesn't have to think about, if I do this, will I be loved less? If I do that, will I be loved less? How do I word this in such a way as that they don't feel it kind of way and that I don't? You know what I mean? When I don't have to do that labor and I can focus my energy on the labor of being and loving and creating because it just frees up RAM in my brain. Do you know what I'm saying? Now I can do other functions. That is a feeling of home. And I do get that sometimes with some people. And what's really hard, I think the gender stuff is really confusing. It's like, people understand, okay, you are cis or you're not cis. Okay, I got that. That's one of those two things. So you seem like you're cis. So what is the issue? And I'm like, I don't know how to explain it. It's sort of like I feel a little bit like all genders at all times. And so the weird thing that happens, which is fine, that's fine. But the weird thing that happens is when someone's treats me and can only imagine me as one thing, then they unwittingly just shut out a whole part of my experience.
Josh Gywnn: Of possibilities.
Carvell Wallace: Yeah. For a stranger to do that, okay, whatever. That's fine. If some dude in the street is like, Hey, what's up, dude, yo, blah, blah da. I'm like, okay, this guy thinks I'm doing fine. But when someone really close to you does it, again, it hurts more.
Josh Gywnn: It's also like when someone close to you does it's like, damn, I thought you knew me. I felt seen by you, but now I don't feel as seen.
Carvell Wallace: It's like I thought I was home.
Josh Gywnn: Yeah. Yeah. Carvell Wallace is a writer, a podcaster, and my new spiritual twin. Back in a bit.
Vox Pop Audio: All right, what is a silk press? A silk press is when ... I think it's a washing style. Washing style. Wash it, condition it, blow dry it. And then they're going through it with the hot cone, if I'm correct. From what I've seen, you straighten your hair. A silk press to me is when your hair is bone straight and silky. Like you can comb right through it. To me, that's what I feel like a silk press is.
Josh Gywnn: So Tracy.
Tracy Clayton: So what?
Josh Gywnn: There's a part of this Carvell tape that I didn't play before.
Tracy Clayton: Okay. why are you keeping secrets?
Josh Gywnn: You got to keep the best until the end. It's when I asked him if I myself, Josh, should get a silk press.
Tracy Clayton: Okay. All right. Let's get into it. What did he say?
Josh Gywnn: Here's what he said.
Carvell Wallace: Well, do you have fear about getting silk press?
Josh Gywnn: Several. Okay. So I have-
Carvell Wallace: Okay. Please, let me know.
Josh Gywnn: Okay. So here are the things I'm afraid of. I'm afraid that I'll get heat damage and ruin my hair. I'm afraid that the length that I have is going to look more Al Sharpton than bad bitch, which is what I'm envisioning.
Carvell Wallace: It's so accurate.
Josh Gywnn: And no shade to Al, he looks great.
Carvell Wallace: Just no the look you were going for.
Josh Gywnn: That's not the look I'm going for. And I'm scared that my length is going to land me there. I'm also afraid of ... It's not something I would do knowing that I'm going to a family reunion the next day. But I'm one of those people where I'm like, I just want to try it.
Carvell Wallace: Well, and it's temporary. It's not-
Josh Gywnn: Right.
Carvell Wallace: And so I think if I were in your situation, I would think of it as an experiment. We have to experiment with our queerness a lot. That's what my experience. Especially if you have no one around to tell you "Do this, don't do that." In hetero world, everything tells you what to do. Go do this. Talk to her that way. Get her phone number. When you are finding your queer identity, for many of us, we have to try stuff that is weird and scary. And so we learn a kind of experimentation that I think serves you well here. If you want to see what it's like to have a silk press, yeah, don't bring it to your family reunion because that you won't even see about the silk press, you'll just see about your family. So it's like the experiment will be corrupted.
Josh Gywnn: And that's thing, that's the reason why I brought up the family reunion thing. Because it's like, you know when you do something, but then you have to manage everyone else's reactions to it as opposed to experience it yourself?
Carvell Wallace: Yes, thank you. That's what I'm trying to get at. I think to return to the question you asked, the question you should ask yourself is like, do I have enough space to fully hear and experience my reaction to this and to learn what I need to learn?
Josh Gywnn: So during the break, I ran down the street to my salon in Fort Greene in Brooklyn.
Tracy Clayton: And I know this because six hours later we're still here in the recording studio. So it definitely literally happened. Can I see it? Are you going to take your hat off?
Josh Gywnn: Okay. Patience. Patience.
Tracy Clayton: Let me see. Let me see.
Josh Gywnn: I want to take you first to my salon. It's called Changing Faces.
Tracy Clayton: (singing) Farewell.
Josh Gywnn: Exactly.
Tracy Clayton: I love it.
Josh Gywnn: I just want you to be here with me. I want you to smell the dye, the chemicals.
Tracy Clayton: I smell it. Absolutely.
Josh Gywnn: And I want to introduce you to my stylist. Her name is Jasmine. If I could trust anyone to do it, to have me looking okay it would be Jasmine.
Jasmine: Now I'm like, Ooh, the stakes are high, but Al Sharpton, it's just not happening.
Josh Gywnn: So I'm going to take you with me. Also, our producer, Zandra, she's going to come as I get my first silk press. Baby's first silk press.
Tracy Clayton: Baby's first silk press. No light conditioner. Relax the cream.
Producer: Josh, how are you feeling?
Josh Gywnn: Nerve-cited. I'm excited, but I'm also nervous because I feel like I don't know how it's going to look. I've never looked like this before. My mom's always worn her straight.
Jasmine: I think you told me that before.
Josh Gywnn: Jasmine, what's the next step?
Jasmine: Okay, so now I'm just going to blow you out, and then I'll start to press you.
Josh Gywnn: Smells like Sunday.
Jasmine: See, this is why I rock with you, because this is real trust because you have not flinched.
Josh Gywnn: I'm not moving. I want to know who the first person to be like, we should use Saran wrap on my head.
Jasmine: That shit is genius. I don't know who thought about it, but it's genius.
Josh Gywnn: I've never sat under a dryer with Saran wrap on my head.
Tracy Clayton: This was the biggest tease. Having to listen to the process with you right here in front of me, and I still haven't seen it. I need to see it. I need to see the roots.
Josh Gywnn: Okay.
Tracy Clayton: Let me see it. Let me see it.
Josh Gywnn: I'm going to show you right now.
Tracy Clayton: The emo bang. Yes, indeed. Wow. What did it smell like?
Josh Gywnn: Like fire. It smells hot.
Tracy Clayton: I love it. Did you show your friends and family? What did they say? What did they think?
Josh Gywnn: My mom was like, "You look like me." I was like-
Tracy Clayton: True.
Josh Gywnn: I still look like you.
Tracy Clayton: There's a reason for that. Wow. How did it feel?
Josh Gywnn: So I had a lot of nerves going into it because it's like, what if it's not what I thought it was? I've always thought of having a silk press as being this thing where you feel like a bad bitch.
Tracy Clayton: Okay. Is that what you felt?
Josh Gywnn: No, I didn't feel that.
Tracy Clayton: What? Were you disappointed when you didn't feel it?
Josh Gywnn: Yeah. And I felt like, did I do this wrong or is there something wrong with my hair? Or is my hair the wrong length? I feel like if my hair were longer, maybe I would feel more of that energy. Honestly, I remember thinking maybe India.Arie was right.
Tracy Clayton: Whoa.
Josh Gywnn: Our hair means so much. And as we've seen through the timeline, there's a lot that we project into our hair, but it is just our hair and we're made of so much more than that. So I can't expect for a haircut to literally change what's on the inside of me.
Tracy Clayton: Interesting.
Josh Gywnn: But you know what's also really funny?
Tracy Clayton: What?
Josh Gywnn: The style didn't last 24 hours.
Tracy Clayton: Child, welcome to the world.
Josh Gywnn: I think I sweat it out.
Tracy Clayton: Disappointment.
Josh Gywnn: They wrapped it before I left. I woke up, it was raining.
Tracy Clayton: Oh the rain will ... No, the rain gets you out of hair real quick.
Josh Gywnn: I look in the mirror and my hair was huge.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah. Yes. Absolutely. Listen.
Josh Gywnn: I was like, all this for nothing.
Tracy Clayton: You definitely have to check the weather before you schedule the hair straightening. For real. For real. Okay. Wait.
Josh Gywnn: I feel like it was a real welcome to the club type of thing.
Tracy Clayton: You've been inducted, your induction is complete. One more question. Did it really make you feel like Al Sharpton?
Josh Gywnn: I felt like, (singing) because tonight will be the night that I will fall for you. I felt more like that.
Tracy Clayton: So an emo Al Sharpton.
Josh Gywnn: Emo Al Sharpton. I felt like Martin Luther King, Malcolm X all in my top eight. That was a MySpace joke.
Tracy Clayton: I love it. I love it.
Josh Gywnn: Have you ever seen this video of Al Sharpton talking about how James Brown made him get a conk and how his hair has been that way ever since?
Tracy Clayton: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.
CLIP: He said, "I want people to see you as a reflection like my son." And that's why I started doing my hair. And years later, as I became known, I got a lot of flack from some of my more Afrocentric bro. "Get that conk out your hair." But they didn't understand. It wasn't a style. It was a bonding for me to validate that a man felt I was worthy to emulate them, that I didn't get from my father
Tracy Clayton: Man, I love that. Joshua, so now that you have cried at the salon during your America's Next Top model makeover
Josh Gywnn: She's cutting off all my hair. I had no idea. Because I've never watched this show before.
CLIP: Sandra, why are you crying?
CLIP: I love my hair.
CLIP: It'll always grow back. That sucks for her. But it's like you really got to do what you got to do because it's the opportunity of a lifetime.
Tracy Clayton: She put them girls through it. Speaking of Tyra, let's bring her into the conversation and ask, did we-
CLIP: Learn something from this?
Josh Gywnn: I know I did.
Tracy Clayton: What did you learn?
Josh Gywnn: I learned that hair is literally what we want it to be. It has the potential to be political, but it doesn't have to be political. It has the potential to be about expression, but it doesn't have to be about expression. And one of the great things in life, if you're lucky enough to have it, is that you get to make that decision for yourself. And so some days I will be using it as my barometer of how I'm feeling politically. And sometimes it's just I feel like a bad bitch that week.
Tracy Clayton: That's all it is.
Josh Gywnn: And you can see it before I even open my mouth.
Tracy Clayton: Sometimes it's just what it is.
Josh Gywnn: It's what it is.
Tracy Clayton: Aw. Something that I learned today from your conversation with Carvell is just why Ice Cube and Eazy-E had curls and it was fine because they was killing it on the street, or at least rapping about it. I never took the time to sit down and dissect it, but it makes total sense. Also, the reason why the trope of the pimp in '70s blaxploitation movies always, they was always in a beauty shop getting their hair done.
Josh Gywnn: Because they're like, say something.
Tracy Clayton: Right. I bet you won't.
Josh Gywnn: I bet you won't.
Tracy Clayton: I bet you won't. Also, I'm a little inspired, Joshua, all of the self-care that you've been doing, love that for you.
Josh Gywnn: Thanks, man.
Tracy Clayton: I also love it for me. Not to make this about me, but it really does inspire me and it gives me permission to do the same in ways that are kind of radical. One of those ways is I am going to take some time away from the studio and just breathe.
Josh Gywnn: I support this.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, there's so much going on. You all, turning 40 will do this to you. When they talk about midlife crises, they lie about it. I always thought it's the thing that happens to men when they hit 40, they go by new Camaro.
Josh Gywnn: Get a new sports car.
Tracy Clayton: Exactly. And they get a little sugar, baby. That's all I knew. No, your body changes. You become unbalanced hormonally. And it's a lot to take in. So I am looking forward to really, really resting and also looking forward to listening to the show with everybody else. Even though you won't hear my voice every episode, I'll stop through and check in.
Josh Gywnn: I'm real proud of you. It's really easy to be like, self-care, everyone should listen to your body. It's way easier to say that than it is to do it. And you're doing it.
Tracy Clayton: Listen, that means a lot because it is hard work. It really is hard work. And sometimes it feels like it's all for not, because I'm still fucking tired all the time. And I'm just like, but I self-care the out of myself last week. What's going on? So it feels really good to be recognized.
Josh Gywnn: I love that.
Tracy Clayton: Aw.
Josh Gywnn: So I have an idea.
Tracy Clayton: What?
Josh Gywnn: I'm going to bring on some people to help me with this season then.
Tracy Clayton: Ooh, who's it going to be? Do you know?
Josh Gywnn: Yeah.
Tracy Clayton: Have you been brainstorming?
Josh Gywnn: I have.
Tracy Clayton: Who? Who? Who?
Josh Gywnn: Okay. So Matt Bellassai’s going to come.
Tracy Clayton: Yay.
Josh Gywnn: Sam Sanders is going to come.
Tracy Clayton: Yay.
Josh Gywnn: Rachelle Hampton from ICYMI is going to come.
Tracy Clayton: Yay.
Josh Gywnn: We're going to talk to Jazmine Hughes.
Tracy Clayton: Oh Lord. Also yay. That is going to be a riot.
Josh Gywnn: Guess what we're going to talk to her about next week?
Tracy Clayton: What?
Josh Gywnn: Cheetah girls, cheetah sisters.
Tracy Clayton: Wow. Of course you are. Of course you're going to talk about the Cheetah Girls with Jazmine.
Josh Gywnn: I can do the show and have the space, but that you're also getting what you need. And that I can text you and be like, what did you think
Tracy Clayton: Yeah. I really want to stress to everybody that I am still here. Mama's just taking a little vacation, but she'll be back and you better have the chicken taken out before I get here. Otherwise, consequences and repercussions.
Josh Gywnn: Take it out the freezer. We'll see you next week.
ENDING CREDITS: Back Issue is a production of Pineapple Street Studios. I'm the host and senior producer, Josh Gywnn. Back Issue was created by myself and Tracy Clayton. Our producers are Janelle Anderson, Xandra Ellin, and Ari Saperstein. Our editors are Leila Day and Emmanuel Hapsis. Our managing producer is Bria Mariette. Our executive producer is Leila Day. Our intern is Noah Camuso.
Special thanks to Himie Freeman, the men that you heard in this episode talking about their hair, and A-town in general. Today's episode was produced by Xandra Ellin and edited by Leila Day. Our sound engineers include Sharon Bardales, Davy Sumner, Jason Richards, Jade Brooks, Marina Paiz, Pedro Alvira, and Raj Makhija. Art Design by Cadence 13 and original music by Raj and Don Will. Executive producers for Pineapple Street Studios are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky.
I'm on Twitter and Instagram @regardingJosh. You can follow the show on Instagram @backissuepodcast. And if you use the hashtag #backissuepodcast about it on Twitter you sound like you like chaos, and I like you. You can subscribe to this podcast wherever free podcasts are sold. Tell a friend, tell a foe, tell anybody. Leave a review. It really does help. I'll see you next week.