BACK ISSUE
In Our Cheetah-licious Era
We're Cheetah Girls, Cheetah Sisters and don't you EVER forget it! This week Josh and special guest-host Jazmine Hughes take a trip down a cheetah-spotted memory lane into the Cheetah Girls franchise. Most know the cheetah-licious girl group from their Disney Channel movies, but did you know this all stemmed from a children's book series? Or that two of the members were from the girl group 3LW? Today we explore the groups' undeniable bops, how they arrived at their height and what started to shift. From how Raven Symone navigated her conditional role as leader, to a message from the creator of it all, writer Deborah Gregory, we're talking all things cheetah-licious.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION
Back Issue Intro: Beyonce? You look like Luther Vandross. Ho, but make it fashion. I don't get no sleep because of y'all. It's Britney, bitch. We were rooting for you, Tiffany. We were all rooting for you. But I ain’t one to gossip… Who said that?
Josh Gwynn: Welcome to Back Issue, a weekly podcast that revisits formative moments in pop culture that we still think about. This week, we're Cheetah Girls, Cheetah Sisters.
CLIP: I am going to be a star. Do I have to be solo or are you cheetahs ready to hit a big time?
CLIP: I can't handle four girls alone in Spain, (singing). Those are my ideas too. And I could freestyle a lot of the hooks you use. (singing)
CLIP: We're going to India.
CLIP: All Of Barcelona will be your stage.
CLIP: We can't do this without you girl.
CLIP: Oh my goodness. All of this. And we get to sing too. Say it loud and proud girls. It's
Cheetahlicious.
Josh Gwynn: I'm Josh Gwynn. Let's get it. We're going to talk about the Cheetah Girls, a Meta Disney experiment in girl groups, musicals and comedy. We're going to get into what the group was, what it wasn't, and what their impact is on culture today. And remember, Tracy is out doing some self-care stuff this season, and you know I support my girl. So today, we have a new guest co-host. She's a staff writer at the New York Times. She's queen of all the Scorpios. It's Jazmine Hughes.
Jazmine Hughes: Hey.
Josh Gwynn: Hey friend.
Jazmine Hughes: Hi Josh.
Josh Gwynn: How you doing?
Jazmine Hughes: I'm so excited to be here. First time Cheetah, longtime girl. I am so excited to talk to you about the Cheetah Girls. I told my sisters and we have a group chat called the Cheetah Sisters.
Josh Gwynn: I love that.
Jazmine Hughes: So I told them that I was representing for the group for-
Josh Gwynn: For the girls.
Jazmine Hughes: For the girls. Can we talk about these cultural icons? I mean it's actually... It's crazy to think about in hindsight and we'll get into this. But they had not only the movies, they had the dolls, they had the albums, they had-
Josh Gwynn: Everything. They had so many things. And we're going to talk about how the group got it's start. And how it grew into this huge entertainment shark-coochie board that we know and we all love. We're going to also hear from its creator, Deborah Gregory. She wrote the books, and she was a producer on all of the movies. But before we get to the movies, I'm going to put on my LeVar Burton hat. Real ones know before the Cheetah Girls were the pop stars that we saw taking over our small screens. They were taking over our bookshelves.
Josh + Jazmine: (singing)
Josh Gwynn: Exactly. All right. So Jazmine, I have seen the first two movies. I didn't see the third one, and I probably saw them when they first aired. I haven't seen them in years. They're pretty different from the books, right?
Jazmine Hughes: Yes. I, an OG, started reading the books probably when I was nine or 10 years old. I had all those books. It's funny, I feel like women around our ages, I'm 31, they cite the Babysitters Club as sort of the most prominent series of their childhood. But the Cheetah Girls. I really rode for the Cheetah Girls. And I just remember finding those books with five beautiful, beautiful black girls on the cover and being like, "I don't know what this is, but I know that I need it."
Josh Gwynn: I love this. I didn't read The Cheetah Girls. I was too busy reading Animorphs, but I am so glad that you're here because I want you to walk me through what the books were doing.
Jazmine Hughes: Where to even begin. There were 16 books and I think I was pulled to them as a young person for two reasons. One, because they had all this fabulous animal print on the cover, right. So they were sort of loud books and I was drawn like a mouth to a flame.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah. If you look at the book covers, they're giving you Wendy Williams in her office.
Jazmine Hughes: They're fashion. They're giving Wendy Williams. They're giving my grandmother's like living room that is decked out in safari materials like, yes. But in the middle of these book covers that were covered in animal prints were five women all black, some of whom were quite dark skinned such as myself. And the Babysitters Club had one Black girl. And as a dark-skinned woman myself, it was one thing to have representation with another black girl in the group, but it was quite another to have representation with another dark-skinned girl in the group.
Josh Gwynn: Exactly.
Jazmine Hughes: The fact that Cheetah Girls had two.
Josh Gwynn: You didn't have to just settle.
Jazmine Hughes: I could choose. I would have options, which was actually something I had never really gotten before as a quote on quote, purveyor of culture when I'm 11, 12 years old. But in hindsight it meant a lot to me.
Josh Gwynn: I'm sure. So tell me, pretend like I'm dumb. What are the Cheetah Girls? What are the ingredients? What's happening?
Jazmine Hughes: There's life before Cheetah and life after. So who were the Cheetah Girls?
Josh Gwynn: Who were they?
Jazmine Hughes: Right, five girlies, Galleria, Dorinda, Aquanette, and Anginette and then Chanel. And they all came from these very fabulous, interesting backgrounds. Firstly, they all lived in New York City, but I think actually this was one of the ways that I found out that New York was a melting pot.
Josh Gwynn: Okay.
Jazmine Hughes: Because there were Afro-Latino girlies, there were African-American girlies. Galleria was Black and Italian. And I was like, "Oh, that's interesting. Okay, do the right thing." Then Dorinda was black and Japanese.
Josh Gwynn: The Cheetah Girls were Obama's America.
CLIP: We believe our diversity, our difference is when joined together by a common set of ideals makes us stronger, makes us more creative, makes us different.
Jazmine Hughes: Not the Cheetah girls inventing biraciality, but in a way-
Josh Gwynn: Multiculturalism.
Jazmine Hughes: The Cheetah Girls were woke before there was woke. Anyway, I was trying to give girly fancy grownup. I was very much a kid who wanted to be a grownup, but even more of a man, I desperately wanted to be a teen. So the Cheetah Girls books titles were, it's Raining Benjamins, or Wishing On a Star, Hey Ho Hollywood. It was just like, and hindsight was a tiny bit sophomoric, but to my eye at the time, I was like, "These are the coolest girls in the entire world."
Josh Gwynn: So if you were to boil down what the Cheetah Girls book series was about, what would you say?
Jazmine Hughes: You know Josh? The amazing thing that Deborah Gregory did is that she created a world, a real world of the Cheetah Girls. And there was a culture and there were slang terms. So at the back of every book, there was a glossary for the slang that they used like, duckets, and Benjamins and stuff. I probably still say duckets when I'm drunk, which is deeply embarrassing.
Josh Gwynn: I actually love that.
Jazmine Hughes: So that was at the very back of the book. But at the front of the book, let me tell you, you remember church, right? You know about church when they pray in church and it's supposed to be beautiful and spiritual and all of that. Step aside church.
Jazmine Hughes: Because the Cheetah Girls credo, like the pledge that you make to be a Cheetah girl because you don't just wake up with your spots. Okay, you earned them.
Josh Gwynn: Okay.
Jazmine Hughes: The Cheetah Girls credo is so thoughtful and good and decent.
Josh Gwynn: Jazmine, You literally have your hand over your heart right now.
Jazmine Hughes: I have my hand over my heart. Deborah Gregory should be like writing stump speeches. I'm ready to vote for president. Okay, so-
Josh Gwynn: Yes.
Jazmine Hughes: The Cheetah Girls credo. Josh, if you would've place your hand over your heart for me please.
Josh Gwynn: I got to stand up, take my hat off.
Jazmine Hughes: To earn my spots and rightful place in the world. I solemnly swear to honor and uphold the Cheetah Girls oath. Number one, Cheetah Girls don't litter, they glitter. I will help my family, friends, and other Cheetah Girls whenever they need my love support, or a really big hug. Number two, all Cheetah Girls are created equal, but we are not alike. We come in different sizes, shapes, and colors, and hail from different cultures. I will not judge others by the color of their spots, but by their character.
Jazmine Hughes: Tell me why. Martin Luther King Jr. then went on to steal this. Okay, breaking news from Deborah Gregory. Anyway, it goes on to talk about how the things that we should be most proud of as young women is both our beauty and our brains. Or encouraging young people to say, if you're really scared about something, like go to an older Cheetah Girl. A Cheetah elder one might say in your life and ask for help. It was sort of like one of those American Girl books that was an instruction manual for how to be a preteen girl, but in a sneaky fun way that didn't feel so preachy.
Josh Gwynn: Candy with the medicine.
Jazmine Hughes: Medicine with the candy.
Josh Gwynn: I'm looking at the rest of this credo. And you know what my favorite thing about it is?
Jazmine Hughes: Please tell me.
Josh Gwynn: I mean the message is just really positive. And I would love, if I had a child, I would give them these sorts of messages. But it's written in the way that all Black people start to talk when they reach the age of 45, which is you know when Black people just start talking in rhyme.
Jazmine Hughes: Riddles and rhymes.
Josh Gwynn: You know like, "You want to be the boss, you got to pay the cost."
Jazmine Hughes: Or there's repetition. And that's supposed to really make the point. Don't have to get ready if you stay ready.
Josh Gwynn: If you don't prepare, you're prepared to fail.
Jazmine Hughes: If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.
Josh Gwynn: Exactly. And these kind of give me that energy like where it's like true Cheetah Girls can achieve without a weave, or a wiggle, jiggle, or a giggle.
Jazmine Hughes: Like it's giving.
Josh Gwynn: Bars. Bars.
Jazmine Hughes: This is what Darren Starr thought he was doing when he got a bunch of white gay men together to write Sex in the City. If they had somebody like this with the power of language.
Josh Gwynn: Oh, she would've killed it.
Jazmine Hughes: It could have been a better show. That's just me. It's just me.
Josh Gwynn: Absolutely. A true Cheetah Girl doesn't spend more time doing her hair than her homework. Hair extensions may be career extensions, but talent and skills will pay my bills.
Jazmine Hughes : Bars.
Josh Gwynn: Deborah.
Jazmine Hughes: Bars.
Josh Gwynn: I'm so excited because we're going to hear more from Deborah personally about what creating this series meant for her, what went into it, and how she feels about it now. But before that, I think we should go to where most people know this series from. And I think it's the movies. I think it's Raven, Sabrina, Adrienne, and Kiely.
Jazmine Hughes: And not Naturi Naughton.
Josh Gwynn: We're going to talk about that too after the break.
*****MID-ROLL AD BREAK*****
Jazmine Hughes: So we know how important these books are. But most people know the Cheetah Girls from the movies and the book. There were five girls, but in the movies it got condensed down into four. But the films had a really cute way of introducing these stars.
Josh Gwynn: Oh, I remember this. This is their art teacher who has my favorite name in the entire series. Her name is Drinka Champagne, and she's like the girl's mentor. So she's the one that's introducing them.
Jazmine Hughes: First you have Galleria, the leader, the songwriter, the main Girling.
CLIP: Galleria, when I look at you, I see a biracial hip hoping version of me.
Jazmine Hughes: Then you had Chanel Galleria's best friend and she could sing.
CLIP: And Chanel, when I look at you honey, I see a hot Latin spicy version of me.
Jazmine Hughes: Your Dorinda, the group's like snazzy choreographer. She was also the only white person in the group, but she had soul.
CLIP: And Dorinda. When I see you, I see you as if I was.
CLIP: If you were what? Go ahead and say it. Everyone else does. Dorinda is like me. If I was shrimpy and white.
CLIP: If I was able to dance.
Jazmine Hughes: You know when you have a white friend, they could dance and you're like, "Okay, all right, come on Brendan, let's go."
Josh Gwynn: What's that TikTok sound where it's like, do know-
Jazmine Hughes: Okay, we're black and I'm rocking with Black folk and Mark.
Josh Gwynn: Exactly.
Jazmine Hughes: Because Mark's rocking with us. Yes, Dorinda was the original and Mark.
Josh Gwynn: Okay, cool.
Jazmine Hughes: And remember Anginette, and Aquanette in the books like the beautiful dark-skinned southern twins. In the movies those two characters got condensed down to a single person Aqua. But she was cute. She was the one who had just moved to the city from Houston.
CLIP: And Aqua, when I look at you, I see myself as if I was from the sassy South.
Josh Gwynn: Hey y'all.
Jazmine Hughes: Hey y'all.
Josh Gwynn: It's very that.
Jazmine Hughes: It's giving Meg, it's giving Beyonce.
Josh Gwynn: Keep that in your mind.
Jazmine Hughes: Did you ever, when I was a young person, I would read a book and look at the people on the cover. And when I was reading the book, I would look back at the cover just so I could, because I don't have an imagination, that's why I'm a news reporter. But in the book, all the Cheetah Girls were black, and brown, and beautiful. And then we had some fair-skinned girls, and the caramel skin girls and the dark-skinned girls. But in the films, the girls looked a little different. How you say not light?
Josh Gwynn: Lighter?
Jazmine Hughes: Lighter. I just, you know how Hollywood is. But Hollywood did one thing, right?
Josh Gwynn: What?
Jazmine Hughes: Disney got the fairy godmother. My fairy godmother. Your fairy godmother. The only fairy godmother of soul. Somebody who knew a thing or two about singing in movies, and musicals and singing in movie, and musicals. Can you guess who that was Josh?
Josh Gwynn: Very godmother of soul. Who?
Jazmine Hughes: The one, the only Whitney Houston.
CLIP: **Whitney Houston singing**
Josh Gwynn: You know what? That makes so much sense. I mean, she's every woman, she's every fairy godmother. She's the fairy godmother from the black Cinderella. The only one that matters.
Jazmine Hughes: And what's a crazy fun fact about Whitney Houston, she actually wrote the national anthem. She wrote it. She made it up that day. Oh, she can do anything.
Josh Gwynn: Anything.
CLIP: Why shouldn't every child see their own kind? It's cool. It's cool. It's, all right. Hey, it's cool.
Jazmine Hughes: So that was Whitney giving a behind the scenes interview for Rogers and Hammerstein's Cinderella. Whitney was the best choice to help the network bring more black, and brown girls to the screen. But they didn't stop there. The network wanted to go all out for their casting. This is going to be a global phenomenon. It's going to be an event. And so come the summer of 2003, the network started to build up to the premiere of this franchise.
CLIP: Cheetahs! Behind the scenes of the cheetah girls starring Raven from, That's So Raven, Sabrina Bryan, and 3LWs, Kiely Williams, and Adrienne Bailon, the Cheetah Girls. Four girls living their dreams both on and off camera. Tomorrow at eight seven Central on Disney Channel.
Josh Gwynn: Okay, so wow. This is taking me back. We have Raven playing Galleria. Sabrina, she's playing Dorinda, and Adrienne and Kiely . They're playing Chanel and Aqua respectively.
Jazmine Hughes: Another fun fact for you, Josh. A little behind the music, a little pop-up video.
Josh Gwynn: Pop- up video.
Jazmine Hughes: Disney casted Solange Knowles you know her.
Josh Gwynn: For what?
Jazmine Hughes: Aqua, Crane in the sky. Don't touch my hair. Writing compositions for the ballet. The New York City one. Solange Knowles was almost Aqua.
Josh Gwynn: I feel like Hillary Clinton would've won if Solange Knowles would've played Aqua. It's just like, which universe would we be in?
Jazmine Hughes: We'd all be like Elon Musk, who?
Josh Gwynn: I'd be over here with hotdog fingers for real.
Jazmine Hughes: Talking to President Blue Ivy. But you know, it's okay. Yeah, it's okay. Solange ended up dropping out of the film to pursue her solo music career. And so if you think about it this way, we might not have had Cranes in the sky if she were a Cheetah girl. We might not have had the proud family theme song. So I think Solange made the right choice.
Josh Gwynn: You know what's funny though, this franchise was trying to create this family friendly girl group, but two of the members were from 3LW. Which I mean, they started as three little women popping out of the street in their BMW that they were two young to drive talking about promises, promises. But I remember them wearing bandanas as t-shirts, and they're on 106 and Park. They're in music videos, body rolling next to Lil Wayne.
CLIP: (Singing).
Josh Gwynn: The era of Lil Wayne features. I can't get over Little Wayne saying little women love little me, but this is a shift for them, right?
Jazmine Hughes: Yeah. They were women. I remember seeing that music video and being in my early teens and being like, "Oh, those are grownups. That's what I'm going to be someday."
Josh Gwynn: Yeah, they just put some curls in Adrienne's hair and they're like, you're 13 girl. And Adrienne and Kiely were definitely coming to the Disney channel with girl group knowledge, but also girl group baggage. Do you remember that Wendy Williams interview that Naturi did after she got kicked out of the group? Because they threw KFC on her.
CLIP: So it's you, the management, and the limo driver, the expedition driver.
CLIP: At the time.
CLIP: Okay. So the other girls come out, they got their two piece-
CLIP: They see us arguing.
CLIP: And Kiely actually had a dinner meal, one of those big dinner plates with mashed potatoes.
CLIP: Yeah, because she's 16, she snaps back. Go ahead.
CLIP: Mashed potatoes.
CLIP: Damn you all for eating like that.
CLIP: Macaroni and cheese and chicken. The fried chicken.
CLIP: So it's in the big dinner plate and she steps onto the car. Like the little lever.
The car. And then while we're arguing, me and Michelle. I'm talking to Michelle and they're like, "F you. Calling me all kind of and this, this and that." And I'm talking, I'm like, "Yeah, whatever y'all." Trying to ignore them because that's been going on for at least a week. While we were on the promo tour. So I say to Michelle, what did I say wrong? And all I know is out of the blue, Kiely just is like, "F you." And then throws the plate dead in my face. In my eye.
CLIP: My eye was watering it was a mess.
CLIP: Yeah, we had mashed potatoes and gravy.
CLIP: Mashed potatoes, mashed all over my hair, my face down my clothes. It was a mess. And right then and there I was like, "I don't have to take this."
Jazmine Hughes: I've been waiting my whole life to talk about the KFC as if black people haven't been through enough. All of a sudden we're throwing fried chicken at people. Yes, I do remember this interview. And because you and I were young, this was drama.
Josh Gwynn: I mean, maybe respectability politics are good. We're throwing chicken at each other. Lord Jesus.
Jazmine Hughes: I mean, Josh, you are right because fried chicken is lighter than the watermelon and she could have gotten hurt. But I remember this being a big deal. We talked about it in school. This was like national news.
Josh Gwynn: Absolutely.
Jazmine Hughes: In a lot of ways the Cheetah Girls was a true pivot for these women, but it was also an extremely successful one. The Cheetah Girls movie, the first one premiered with over 6 million viewers
Josh Gwynn: That's crazy. Okay, so let's take it back. What's the movie about?
Jazmine Hughes: A bunch of high school girlies have these big juicy hopes and dreams of becoming recording artists. And you know, and I are familiar with the Disney Channel. So how do all music artists get their starts? Or how does the Brady Bunch raise a bunch of money so they keep their house? Or how do we save the town?
Josh Gwynn: Talent Show.
Jazmine Hughes: You got to do the talent show.
Josh Gwynn: Got to keep on, keep on, keep on, keep on dancing through the night.
Jazmine Hughes: The girls want to be the first freshman to win the high school talent show.
Josh Gwynn: Oh, the pressure.
Jazmine Hughes: And the high school's in New York City. So the pressure was," Oh, my God." But as soon as their ambitions are underway, and they're practicing, and they're like doing the runs or whatever, they catch the attention of a big name music producer who wants to offer them a recording contract.
CLIP: And I've got some contracts here for the Mama Cheetah. Standard agreement number one, record a bumping demo. Number two, have the record people fall in love with it, and three make millions. So who's down with that? Huh?
Jazmine Hughes: Prayer Works Josh. That's what The Cheetah Girls is about.
Josh Gwynn: Okay.
Jazmine Hughes: But there's a difference between winning your high school talent show and getting a recording contract. So the girls have different feelings about it, and it causes some tension in the group and some tension with their friendship and get a little catty with each other.
Josh Gwynn: Go home.
Jazmine Hughes: Do you like that? You like that joke? and the movie leads up to this massive big finale number, and the crowded streets of New York City and the girls make up. And they sing this fabulous song, which not only inspired me at the time, but has inspired my sister's group chat. And that song is called Cheetah Sisters.
CLIP: (singing)
Josh Gwynn: The lyrics are so good.
Jazmine Hughes: Hits, it actually hits.
Josh Gwynn: They're so catchy. Oh, the film is so good. It comes at no surprise that the Disney Channel quickly capitalizes on its success, because if the mouse is anything, it's capitalistic. They wanted to see how far they could take this franchise, right.
Jazmine Hughes: Right. Over the next three years on the Disney Channel, the Cheetah Girls started popping up in a lot more places. They had the group record covers of Disney classics.
Josh Gwynn: I won't say I'm in Love from Hercules.
CLIP: (Singing).
Jazmine Hughes: They covered songs for other future Walt Disney films.
Josh Gwynn: Oh yeah. Like the one they did for the Cars movie.
CLIP: (singing).
Jazmine Hughes: They had dolls, they had t-shirts. The network even had them record a Christmas album. Sorry to Mariah Carey, but.
CLIP: (Singing).
Jazmine Hughes: The girls we're touring with Aly & AJ, The Jonas Brothers and all these music focused acts that were under the Disney Music label, Hollywood Records. In order to promote the fact that Disney had a music label. But Josh, there was something missing. None of these projects included the star, Raven Symoné.
Josh Gwynn: Raven Symoné, yeah.
Jazmine Hughes: The most famous person in the franchise by far, but also who played the main character in the Cheetah Girls Galleria. The leader of the group. And why was that? And why was Raven not there? She was doing something else for the network. She had a project. I don't how what could Raven Symoné have been doing that kept her busy? (singing).
THAT’S SO RAVEN THEME SONG MUX
Josh Gwynn: (singing). What a show. I feel like people really underestimate Raven's comedy chops and like her comedic timing. That's so Raven is unmatched. You can't touch it.
Jazmine Hughes: Raven was obviously tied up in the most successful TV show of all time in the Hughes’ household.
Josh Gwynn: But do you know how I would be if I was a fan of the Cheetah Girls, right? And I was like, "Mom, dad, get me tickets to the Cheetah Girls. And I go down to my local venue to see the Cheetah Girls and the cheetah girls get on stage. But there's no Raven Symoné."
Jazmine Hughes: You're like, "Excuse me." It's good for people to learn about disappointment from an early age.
Josh Gwynn: I'm like, I'd be so angry.
Jazmine Hughes: But no, it was so messed up. Thankfully though, Raven is in the second, and by far the best film, the franchise called Cheetah Girls Two.
CLIP: The newest Disney channel original movie. The Cheetah Girls Two opens Friday, August 25th at eight seven Central part of Disney Channel. So hot summer.
Jazmine Hughes: Our dear Whitney Houston, may she rest in peace and power, returned to executive produce this movie. And this dude, Kenny Ortega, who was one of the masterminds behind High school musical, directed the film.
Josh Gwynn: Oh, so this is where the millennial passage to Barcelona reenactment on the steps thing happens on TikTok.
Jazmine Hughes: Exactly. Exactly, exactly. So the Cheetah Girls are back this time. School is out, it's the summertime. And the four girls are really excited to spend their last summer together before college. I don't want to spoil it too much because it is like a tight 90. Everybody could just watch this film today. But because we're talking about a Disney Channel movie, obviously there's another talent competition that they have to enter.
Josh Gwynn: Obviously.
Jazmine Hughes: But also because it's a Disney Channel movie, and because these are Black girls with their white friend just trying to make it through this world, there were haters trying to break the group apart.
Josh Gwynn: Okay.
Jazmine Hughes: Chanel is bonding with another artist, another musical artist in Spain who is not one of the girlies. Dorinda got herself a little boyfriend.
Josh Gwynn: I remember seeing her do the little flamenco class with him.
Jazmine Hughes: Because she's got the moves, she's got the rhythm, and they're feeling that. And she's white so she fits in there.
CLIP: Dorinda you look great. Are you ready? Okay, you guys listen up. I'm going to slow things down a little bit for New York here. They're always six hours behind you now.
CLIP: We'll see about that Barcelona.
Jazmine Hughes: Aqua was living it up. She was enjoying everything that Spain had to offer. She was like me hablo espanol. So she was crushing it. And then Galleria is left trying to keep the group's dream of international stardom intact. She was like, "We came all this way. We've dreamed so long and so hard. Let's keep our eyes on the prize."
CLIP: Okay? All right, let's take it again.
CLIP: Please. Let's take a nap. Come on. That party was bananas and I can't bounce back the way I used to when I was 12.
CLIP: But we've only been rehearsing for 30 minutes. Besides, I wanted to play you this new song I've been thinking about for the festival.
Jazmine Hughes: Josh, it's such a good movie. I just rewatched it the other day with my newborn niece. She is two months old, but it's important for her to know her history.
Josh Gwynn: Train them up right.
Jazmine Hughes: Unsurprisingly, this movie did even better than the original one and it had a total of, I think 8.1 million viewers.
Josh Gwynn: Numbers. Okay? This is the movie that got strut like, (singing).
CLIP: (singing).
Josh Gwynn: What a jam.
Jazmine Hughes: Yeah. Hits Cheetah Girls Two have the Hits. It had the location, it had the cutie Spanish boys. But there's actually one big reason why this movie is so important to the franchise.
Josh Gwynn: Why?
Jazmine Hughes: It was the last time we saw Raven in her Cheetah spots. The last time she was a Cheetah Girl.
Josh Gwynn: Boo Tomato, tomato, tomato.
Jazmine Hughes: Disney did not let that stop them. They went on to make a third movie Cheetah Girls, one World. Without Raven in it. So it was kind of a flop.
Josh Gwynn: I've never seen this movie before. I've only seen this clip of them dancing on this rooftop in India. But is it a Cheetah Girls movie if Raven's not in it?
Jazmine Hughes: They never really explained why Raven's character Galleria wasn't in the movie. All they say is, this.
CLIP: That's it. It's kind of rough.
CLIP: Well, we're still working out kinks.
CLIP: Yeah, we used to be a foursome. And then Galleria got into Cambridge.
CLIP: Which you know is great and amazing.
CLIP: Especially considering her study habits.
CLIP: That's why she's in summer school.
CLIP: But trust us, we totally got this down.
CLIP: Yeah, whatever.
Jazmine Hughes: In reality. Raven was done filming the last season of That so Raven. And while the third Cheetah movie was in production, she was filming a different movie called College Road Trip with Martin Lawrence. So yeah, she was at college. Can you hear my air quote? She was in college with Martin after that third movie. The group and the franchise slowly start to fizzle out. They made a couple of guest appearances and some other Disney Channel programs.
Josh Gwynn: Disney Channel loves a cross promo.
Jazmine Hughes: Listen, they released this other album that was separate from the movies that didn't do so well. And then slowly but surely their music videos, and their behind the scene promos on the channel weren't played anymore. As the network started to shift to newer projects.
Josh Gwynn: I know that Raven wanted to focus on her music career though. She'd make these little snide comments here, and there about her decision to leave and how that was going for her. I remember there were these clips of her at concert events, and she would be trying to explain to the audience why she left.
CLIP: No, here's the reason why. So first reason is because I've been a solo artist since I was five years old. And I think if I'm a part of a group that kind of confuses the type of music that I do. And I never want to confuse you. One, two, I was doing college Road trip, I was doing it.
Josh Gwynn: I'm also thinking about that one time on 106 and Park and somebody was like, "Raven, where's your new music?" And she was like, "Aren't I always in the studio making music that nobody buys?" And-
Jazmine Hughes: It's the self-awareness for me.
CLIP: You still in the studio working on music too?
CLIP: Aint I always in the studio working on music that nobody buys. So-
CLIP: Wow.
CLIP: I am on my fifth.... You bought it? You just saying that because you on camera. Anyway I'm just playing with your sweetheart. You probably are. No, I am working on my fifth solo album and hopefully it'll be out by next year. Let's hope y'all keep saying that when it comes out.
Jazmine Hughes: Look, I can't knock a black woman for trying to go off on her separate career path and make some coin, okay.
Josh Gwynn: Diversify.
Jazmine Hughes: Diversify your portfolio. Some people's careers are just more popular than others. And that's what it is.
Josh Gwynn: Right, after the Cheetah Girls fizzled out. All of its members go off on their own unique career paths. Raven's resume extends way beyond her Disney Channel days. She went on to record her own albums. She performed on Broadway, and Sister Act. She starred in a couple movies here and there, and she was a panelist on the View.
Jazmine Hughes: In a similar manner. Adrienne goes on to be a host of the Real, the best TV show to watch when you're getting your hair braided. Listen, I feel like Adrienne really led me through some like hour six, getting my hair done. She was keeping it peppy, so I was keeping it peppy.
Josh Gwynn: Okay.
Jazmine Hughes: She was there for me.
Josh Gwynn: Sabrina goes on to compete in not one but two seasons of Dancing with the Stars, and then she kind of steps out of the limelight. And then there's Kiely, Kiely Williams, who makes some interesting career choices Cheetah Girls. She releases a song called Spectacular. It has one of my favorite lyrics of all time. Can I tell you what it is?
Jazmine Hughes: Please.
Josh Gwynn: It's, I think he pulled a track out while he was blowing my back out.
CLIP: (singing).
Jazmine Hughes: Where's Jesus? I'm going to pray for her.
Josh Gwynn: Just a picture, like the lyrics instantly transport you.
Jazmine Hughes: Should we pray for her right now? Dear God, Josh, would you like to lead us in prayer?
Josh Gwynn: I hope that Kiely Williams stops destroying girl groups because she also was on this show on BET called the Encore, and they had a bunch of different girls that were in old girl groups. So they had the girls from 702, they had the twins from Cherish, they had Aubrey O'Day from Danity Kane, and they had Kiely. And let me tell you, Kiely was up to some shit.
CLIP: Did you know it was 9 of us?
CLIP: Okay, well, I wouldn't be considered a part of the nine because I'm not here to be in the group bubba.
CLIP: What are you here for?
CLIP: I'm here to be a creative director. I'm here to help you guys become a group.
CLIP: No, no. I thought everybody in here was going to be a part of the group.
Jazmine Hughes: Yes. I think that she should have just stayed in her lane and got in a KFC sponsorship deal. But we all make our own choices.
Josh Gwynn: Create your space, create the space.
Jazmine Hughes: Anyway, many years had gone by, but there was still some low key unsaid tension between the Cheetah Girls that none of us knew about until last-
Josh Gwynn: Until that IG live between Raven and Kiely in 2020. When I tell you that this is what got me through the pandemic.
Jazmine Hughes: I love gossip more than anything. I love a long game. I thought the Cheetah Girls were cool. Come to find out Raven and her sandwich were ready to fight.
Josh Gwynn: Raven's eating a sandwich. Kiely's busy breastfeeding her kid. And it's just truly the most chaotic way I can think of to squash beef with someone.
CLIP: Okay, I know. I was just staring. Sorry, I'm waiting to see if somebody will say yes to my request, but they haven't. I heard Kiely was live. That's what I heard. What's up? Oh, my peanut butter sandwich is ready.
CLIP: Hey.
CLIP: Oh, hello.
CLIP: How you doing?
CLIP: I'm good, how are you?
CLIP: I'm good.
CLIP: Good. Hi mom.
CLIP: I know. So everybody's been asking about Cheetah Girl stuff and why didn't you do the third one?
CLIP: The cliquish way that there was during that movie. Made me feel excluded from my original team set and ostracized.
CLIP: Yeah, that makes sense. I was talking to Sabrina about that and I was like, I think a lot of it was we had been touring, and they put us in a group, and so we were like this thing, right. And so it was just kind of weird. And I can understand from your standpoint, but from us we're like, but she's Raven. Well, you know you were. I mean, I'm not trying to... You didn't abuse your power.
CLIP: Oh, I ain't do that shit.
CLIP: Whatever that is. But you were like... I mean, come on, you still are. You're like Raven.
CLIP: You have one fucking name, okay. That's the thing.
CLIP: So I guess-
CLIP: And then let me tell you what you did Kiely. Let me tell you what you did that made me mad.
CLIP: What?
CLIP: Back in the day your little came up to me, you were like, I auditioned for the Cosby Show too.
Jazmine Hughes: I feel like I just lost a fight. Like oof. So we have some insight into what happened, right? Kiely was being messy per usual. Raven wasn't having it, and so she dipped. But as Raven said at the end of their call, there's still one relationship that Kiely hasn't faced.
CLIP: But you know what's the next one, you know what's next in the list?
CLIP: What are you saying?
CLIP: You got to talk to Adrienne, dude.
CLIP: Why do I have to talk to Adrienne? Tell me why?
CLIP: Because you're the firecracker.
CLIP: No, she didn't come to my dad's funeral, or called me when he died. No.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah, so there's definitely more to this KFC story.
Jazmine Hughes: I don't even have to say it, y'all know. But drama aside, Josh, if you actually sit and think about it, the rise of the franchise was kind of incredible.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Jazmine Hughes: We just didn't see too many stories that centered black and brown girls like this.
Josh Gwynn: Especially global ones.
Jazmine Hughes: Not to mention on the Disney Channel.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah, exactly.
Jazmine Hughes: Disney Channel, Whitney Houston. This was a big deal. And so many of us saw ourselves through the Cheetah Girls, myself especially.
Josh Gwynn: I hear you. I hear you Jazmine. And I think there's a voice missing from this journey down memory lane. None of these Cheetalicious memories would be possible without one specific person. And I think it comes as no surprise that she has her own take on how this franchise with all its ups and its downs came to be. So it's time. We hear a word from the woman, the legend, the Mama Cheetah herself, Deborah Gregory.
Deborah Gregory: There's so many people of color from all countries all over the world. You have no idea. So I wanted that. To me, it wasn't like just black.
Josh Gwynn: Deborah grew up in and out of foster homes in New York City.
Deborah Gregory: When I was growing up, being yellow, even though I'm black. Yellow, I see the world in a certain way. I see so many people of color. But I was picked on, bullied. My nickname was Casper for the Friendly Ghost. That was horrible.
Jazmine Hughes: She said that reading and writing was important to her because in the foster home, the woman who took her in didn't know how to read or write, but Deborah had a thing for words and creating worlds.
Josh Gwynn: She became a magazine writer. She wrote a lot about girl groups and she was approached to write a children's series.
Deborah Gregory: It didn't come right away. And then it became this thing that's very important in life anyway. What do you know? So look at me. All I had to do is see my dog in his leopard bed with his leopard coat, my leopard bedroom slippers, my whole apartment. It's like, "Oh, do what you know." And it was so me, the Cheetah Girls. I wanted to create something so fabulous that's not white. That white girls would want instead of the other way around. Meaning, oh my God, I want to be a Cheetah Girl. I want to read the Cheetah Girls. That was part of my vision. How about creating something? So we switched the tables a little bit.
Jazmine Hughes: Remember we were saying earlier that the book was all about Black girls? Then it became a film.
Deborah Gregory: I wasn't so sure that they would like it truthfully, because people talk a good game. Oh, we'd like some more diversity. And then there they are back with the Blonde ambition. And let me tell you, when it came to the casting and we were seeing the girls, they were coming in certain colors. And it was over my head who has final say? Not me. I wanted unknown girls because then the kids would really think it's real. It will be hard for me to say, but I'm going to say it. I did not want Raven because remember what I said, I wanted the kids to really think this was real and I knew that there would be a problem and voila, what happened.
Josh Gwynn: But Deborah, she knew that she had to give little to get a little, the film, it just wasn't going to have the same sort of representation as a series.
Deborah Gregory: That's part of the whole thing of being an artist, is that you have to detach. Because once you have other people involved, you don't have final say anymore.
Jazmine Hughes: But despite having to release some control, she knew that the film was going to mean so much to its audience.
Deborah Gregory: Now, the most important part about this whole thing, so was the kids just all over the world. These girls of color were just fiending and the costumes and the this and that, that was fantastic. But I didn't realize it was going to reverberate so much. Nobody sits down to write a flop. There is no formula, there is no guarantee. These things just take off. And you know what I also wanted to say? My writing career isn't over because I'm still here breathing cheetalicious and it's part of who I am. Growl power forever.
CLIP: Learn, learn, learn, learn, learn something from this. Learn, learn something from this. Learn, learn something from this.
Josh Gwynn: So my Cheetah Girl. My Cheetah sister.
Jazmine Hughes: Yes, my Cheetah sister.
Josh Gwynn: This is the part of the show where we take a page from the patron saint of this podcast, Tyra Banks and ask ourselves, did we-
CLIP: Learn something from this?
Jazmine Hughes: I think we did. I think we learned a lot. First and foremost, we re-familiarize ourself with the great American songbook. The Cheetah Girls discography. But also it's interesting to revisit the Cheetah Girls, not only as an adult, but as a person who works in the medias, and sort of knows how the sausage gets made. Again, as much as I loved seeing these dark-skinned girls on the cover of the Cheetah Girls books. And I remember feeling disappointment and confusion when that wasn't the case for the films, the film still existed. The franchise still existed, and we still had Black girls.
Josh Gwynn: And Mark.
Jazmine Hughes: We still had Black girls and their white friends at the foreground of this massive global, incredibly successful mainstream franchise. And that's not lost on me.
Josh Gwynn: You remember when everybody for Halloween was the Spice Girls?
Jazmine Hughes: Oh my God. And we only had one.
Josh Gwynn: Exactly. Now the white girl had to be Dorinda and you just be happy that you're here. Becky.
Jazmine Hughes: Josh, are you okay? You needed to talk about something.
Josh Gwynn: It just feels fresh.
Jazmine Hughes: Yeah, I understand. But you're right. That's an incredible point that Cheetah Girls franchise gave us options.
Josh Gwynn: Exactly.
Jazmine Hughes: It was just really, cool's not the right word. But it was really emotionally fulfilling to have this period of time where the biggest franchise, like the coolest characters, the crossovers, you walk into a target, and you'd see all these black girls staring back at you. I think one of the lucky things. Lucky might be the imperfect word, is that the Cheetah Girls is a franchise targeted to young people. And it's not like it came out this year and it's a bunch of adults on Twitter being like,"FUCK THIS SHIT” Where's the dark skinned girlies as I would do. So the Cheetah Girls come out now, but it's still meant a lot that they existed, that they were there. And in order to have real progress, you have to make a first step. And the Cheetah Girls were a good first step.
Josh Gwynn: And that first step, that's what is interesting to me. It's like someone who works in the medias, as you said, but also I think that all of us just have that moment where we've made something and we had a vision for it. And then in order for it to get made, we have to change something that we feel really strongly about.
Jazmine Hughes: So we heard from Deborah about how she had to pick and choose her battles to get the Cheetah Girls, the film series franchise in existence. But what do you think about the KFC battles? What do you think about the baggage that Adrienne and Kiely brought to the Cheetah Girls brand?
Josh Gwynn: So anytime that you have a work relationship with someone, money's involved, feelings are involved. You have to exist on tour buses and in tight spaces. And it's really hard for me to think of doing that without constantly checking in emotionally, and trying to be as emotionally mature as possible. And imagine if someone in the group isn't emotionally mature?
Jazmine Hughes: Right, I would be fighting. But yeah, you're right. Not only are you in these close spaces and spending all this time together. But ideally you're like coming into money maybe for the first time you're getting fame and success. And we know that fame and success isn't applied evenly.
Josh Gwynn: Exactly.
Jazmine Hughes: But yeah, I mean it gets really tricky. And we also, as we've mentioned, these are young women. These are women in their late teens, early twenties.
Josh Gwynn: And they're learning to be adults, but together in public.
Jazmine Hughes: And your boss is a mouse.
Josh Gwynn: Help. I do miss Girl groups though, and it was really fun to go back to a time in which girl groups were so ubiquitous that we had a fake one that became a real one.
Jazmine Hughes: And it was fun. It was just part of the magic. Just think about it.
Josh Gwynn: I think you're right.
ENDING CREDITS: Back Issue is produced by Pineapple Street Studios. I'm the host and senior producer for the show. My name's Josh Gwynn. Thanks for hanging with me. Back Issue was created by myself and Tracy Clayton. Our producers are Janelle Anderson, Xandra Ellin and Ari Saperstein. Our editors are Leila Day and Emmanuel Hapsis. Our managing producer is Bria Mariette. Our executive producer is Leila Day, and our intern is Noah Camuso.
Today's episode was produced by Janelle Anderson, get it girl! and edited by Leila Day. Our sound engineers include Sharon Bardales, Davy Sumner, Jason Richards, Jade Brooks, Marina Paiz, Pedro Alvira, and Raj Makhija. Art, designed by Cadence 13 and original music by Raj Makhija and Don Will. Executive producers for Pineapple Street Studios are Jenna Weiss Berman and Max Linsky.
I’m on Twitter and Instagram @regardingjosh. You can follow the show Instagram @backissuepodcast and you can use the hashtag #backissuepodcast if you’re still on Twitter because you sound like a dangerous individual and I like you. Sit next to me. You can subscribe to this podcast wherever free podcasts are sold. Leave a review, especially if it's five stars. It really does help. Outtie 3000.