BACK ISSUE
In Our Degrassi Era
Do you remember the teen show that made you fall in love with teen shows? For Josh and special guest-host Amil Niazi, that show was Canadian soap, "Degrassi: The Next Generation." And let’s just say, this episode GOES THERE. Why’d they do JT like that? Where is the Grammy for Paige Michalchuk and the Sex Kittens? How did playing Jimmy launch Drake to superstardom? Whatever it takes, Josh and Amil are getting to the bottom of all these questions and more. PLUS: Stay tuned for insights from Andrea Lewis, who starred as Hazel Aden.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION
Josh Gwynn: Just a heads up for listeners that this episode contains discussion of sexual violence. Please listen with care.
Degrassi Theme Song Cover: (singing)
Producer Voice: I also just want to make sure you understand that I've been throwing my arms in the air this whole time because you can't listen to it or sing it without doing that.
Back Issue Intro: Beyonce? You look like Luther Vandross. Ho, but make it fashion. I don't get no sleep because of y'all. It's Britney, bitch. We were rooting for you, Tiffany. We were all rooting for you. But I ain’t one to gossip… Who said that?
Josh Gwynn: Welcome to Back Issue, a weekly podcast that revisits formative moments in pop culture that we still think about. Today on the show, I want to go there with the show that claimed to go there: Degrassi.
CLIP: We're nasty. We're sassy because baby, we're Degrassi.
CLIP: We are going to party. No parties, Spin. Girls? No girls. Booze? No booze. Donuts? That, we can do.
CLIP: If elected, I, JT York, will do what a real politician would do: absolutely nothing.
CLIP: Why do you have to be so out of touch? Why do you have to be so mean?
CLIP: Go Degrassi.
Josh Gwynn: I'm Josh Gwynn. Degrassi, the great Canadian teen soap that seems to have a life. With each iteration and each generation, the show finds a way to reinvent itself with new characters to speak to what teenagers might be facing in school. And let me tell you, these were my stories.
Josh Gwynn: So today, we're talking Degrassi, and the we I'm talking about is me and extra special guest co-host. She's a pop culture writer, a broadcaster, a columnist and she's Canadian, so she's extra qualified. Amil Niazi.
Amil Niazi: Hi, Josh.
Josh Gwynn: HiAmil Niazi: I'm so excited about everything you just said, and I'm just honored to be representing Canada on this podcast.
Josh Gwynn: Shout out, shout out. Six, six, six, six.
CANADIAN NATIONAL ANTHEM MUX
Josh Gwynn: So what's your relationship to the show?
Amil Niazi: Well, I grew up on it. I literally had to watch Degrassi in school. And people are going to be aghast when I say that, but I mean part of our curriculum was literally watching the Degrassi kids. And this is like... I know that in America, it's really about The Next Generation.
Josh Gwynn: Mm-hmm.
Amil Niazi: But for us, this goes back to the old, old school Degrassi cast as children. And they were The Kids of Degrassi Street, and they would teach us not to talk to strangers. And then the teens of Degrassi High are teaching us about things like teen pregnancy. And let me blow your mind.
Josh Gwynn: Mm-hmm.
Amil Niazi: There is a real street called Degrassi in Toronto that these kids grew up on. So it's based in an actual, physical place in the city called Degrassi Street.
Josh Gwynn: Oh, love it.
Amil Niazi: It's adorable. It's adorable.
Josh Gwynn: I love it. So to be clear, we're going to be talking about The Next Generation, which is the early aughts iteration of the series.
Amil Niazi: Mm-hmm.
Josh Gwynn: For the uninitiated, this is the version that Drake was on, and that's all you need to know.
Amil Niazi: That is all you need to know.
Josh Gwynn: Also, I support Megan Thee Stallion.
Amil Niazi: Yes, a hundred percent.
Josh Gwynn: I remember when I was little, I used to love shows about the big kids, you know?
Amil Niazi: Mm-hmm.
Josh Gwynn: Where you could sit there and imagine what your high school years were going to be like. I'm just imagining a time in which I was excited for high school. That's-
Amil Niazi: Yes. Yeah, I know. Take me back. Take me all the way back.
Josh Gwynn: And I remember there was a lot of examples of this when I was little. There was Moesha. There was Sister, Sister. And then there were the white ones, like Dawson's Creek and One Tree Hill.
Amil Niazi: Yes. I mean, Gilmore Girls.
Josh Gwynn: Gilmore Girls.
Amil Niazi: The OC.
Josh Gwynn: The OC.
Amil Niazi: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: 90210 and pretty much all the shows that Mad TV was making fun of when they did that skit, Pretty White Kids with Problems. Have you seen this skit?
Amil Niazi: It is so perfect, so apt.
Josh Gwynn: Lisa Loeb just walking through the hallway of a high school singing this theme song.
CLIP: (singing)
Josh Gwynn: But Degrassi, there's something that's different about it. And I can't put my finger on it, but I think that's what we're here to do today.
Amil Niazi: I love that.
Josh Gwynn: So I love how this show is like your Canadian Schoolhouse Rock!, but I want you to experience Degrassi how I experienced it, where it was pure fun.
Amil Niazi: I love that for me, because I'm just getting a reeducation in how to enjoy this show instead of being like, "Okay, I guess I'm going to get my notebook out and take extensive notes."
Josh Gwynn: Wait, do I need to take notes? And throughout the episode we're going to hear some tidbits from actor Andrea Lewis, who brought us the iconic character Hazel from Degrassi.
Amil Niazi: I love that.
Josh Gwynn: I love that too. Okay, so I want to set the scene a little bit for people who have never watched this show before. Do you remember in Mean Girls when Janis Ian and Damian walk Cady through the cafeteria and they're like, "There's the burnouts. There's the unfriendly Black hotties"?
CLIP: The greatest people you will ever meet and the worst. Beware of the Plastics.
Josh Gwynn: So I want to play a little rapid-fire name association game. I'm going to give you the name of a character, and I want you to tell me the first thing that comes to mind when you think of that character.
Amil Niazi: Oh, okay. Okay, I love this.
Josh Gwynn: And there's so many characters for y'all to keep in mind. This is by no means all of the characters, but here are some of the major players. So Paige.
CLIP: Paige? New year, new look, new Paige.
Amil Niazi: Okay, Paige is like a Plastic. Paige is the cool girl. Paige is the hot girl.
Josh Gwynn: She definitely had the bling on her sunglasses. Emma.
CLIP: You gave me a social disease.
Amil Niazi: The good girl. The girl next door.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah, for sure. Jimmy.
Amil Niazi: Jimmy.
CLIP: (rapping)
Amil Niazi: I feel like Jimmy's the nice guy with a bad boy seed.
Josh Gwynn: Mm.
Amil Niazi: He wants to be badder than he is, right? He wants to be the bad, but he's a good boy.
Josh Gwynn: Manny.
Amil Niazi: Manny. I love Manny.
CLIP: He said no visible underwear. Do you see any underwear?
CLIP: No, but-
CLIP: That's right, because I'm not wearing any.
Amil Niazi: Manny is too big for this damn school.
Josh Gwynn: Mm.
Amil Niazi: Needs to get out of high school, out of junior high and blossom into the person that she's going to become.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah. So next up, Hazel.
CLIP: She was horrible to me.
CLIP: But can you tell me why you had to be more horrible back, why you always have to be more horrible?
Amil Niazi: Hazel? I mean, Hazel's a princess, right? Hazel is-
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Amil Niazi: I don't want to call her a mean girl. I don't think she is, but she-
Josh Gwynn: I mean.
Amil Niazi: She walks down the hall and you're like, "Okay, Hazel's here. If Hazel sees my outfit, this could go one of two ways. It could be bad for me." Right?
Josh Gwynn: I definitely think of Paige and Hazel as proto Plastics.
Amil Niazi: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: They're definitely from that same friend group, but have more empathy than Regina George. You know what I mean?
Amil Niazi: Absolutely. Hazel could cry. She can be moved.
Josh Gwynn: Mm-hmm.
Amil Niazi: She cares, but she just has to protect herself a little bit because when you're popular, there's a lot of responsibility on your shoulders. And Hazel knows that.
Josh Gwynn: With great power comes great responsibility.
Amil Niazi: Exactly.
Josh Gwynn: And we're going to be hearing from Andrew Lewis, who played Hazel, later. Two more. JT.
Amil Niazi: Oh, JT.
CLIP: That super fly taste is off the chain, yo. Hey. Don't get all up in my fries, dog.
Amil Niazi: Where Jimmy wants to be the bad boy but is secretly good, I feel like JT's secretly bad. And everyone thinks he's kind of good, but I feel like he's actually bad.
Josh Gwynn: I think that's right. I think he's like the perpetual younger brother.
Amil Niazi: Mm-hmm.
Josh Gwynn: He's annoying and takes that on as his personality.
Amil Niazi: Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: Marco.
CLIP: Oh, Marco. All these beautiful girls and there's not one you like? Just shut him up, I wanted to say, "Papa, there is somebody I like: a guy."
Amil Niazi: Marco. I don't know what subgroup he'd be in. Maybe the guy that tries to play every table a little bit.
Josh Gwynn: And also artsy?
Amil Niazi: Mm-hmm.
Josh Gwynn: He's definitely wearing a black and white sock on his arm.
Amil Niazi (09:28): Oh, yes.
Josh Gwynn: You know what I mean? Speaking of Marco, Adamo Ruggiero, who plays Marco, told the A.V. Club that Degrassi embodies a kind of camp that's really specific to Canada. Is Degrassi just high camp?
Amil Niazi: Yes. I love that. First of all, Canada is basically high camp. Our whole deal is being a bizarro version of you guys. But, I mean, I think a great... My favorite parody of not just teen culture, but of Canadian culture is Nick Kroll. On his sketch show, he did this skit called Wheels Ontario, where he basically skewers just the whole universe of Degrassi.
Josh Gwynn: Mm-hmm.
CLIP: Tuck in your blouse, eh? We're not in Saskatoon anymore, Mom. People in Toronto don't tuck in their blouses. They want to dress well here. And I want to fit in, you know? Oh, don't try it too hard. I got pregnant with you when I was in grade 13. Peer pressure, eh?
Mom, our national health plan pays for abortions, but first I got to get a girlfriend anyway. You know?
Amil Niazi: And it's so perfect. The accents are so good because to us, we just sound normal. But when you hear Nick Kroll doing the Canadian accent, you go, "Oh, right. This must sound like Twin Peaks for kids."
Josh Gwynn: Right, right.
Amil Niazi: And that's what I think Degrassi really captures, is this high camp, surreal, melodramatic-but-rooted-in-authenticity energy that always feels slightly off. It really is sort of a Twin Peaks version of The OC or Dawson's Creek.
Josh Gwynn: Mm-hmm. I think it gets into that idea of forced realness. It feels real, but there's just something that's a little bit turned up too much for it to be real.
Amil Niazi: Yes, exactly. Because you still have to be compelled by these children's lives, and so they do have to dial it up. But there's always that underlying "Yeah, this has either happened to me or it could happen to me, or my friends are living this right now." And I feel like that aspect of constantly coming back to a sense of reality is what also makes it feel camp. The stakes are very high and very low at the same time.
Josh Gwynn: Always, always. There's always an A plot that's like the worst day of someone's life.
Amil Niazi: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: And a B plot that is the day that you forget.
Amil Niazi: Oh my God.
Josh Gwynn: Like-
Amil Niazi: It's like someone is bringing a weapon to school, but also Marco's got that black and white sock on his arm.
Josh Gwynn: Exactly. He's like, "It won't fit."
Amil Niazi: It won't fit. And we're like, "Okay, this is all happening in one episode. Very weird."
Josh Gwynn: And so I want to take a break, but we're going to come back and we're going to play a little game that we've cooked up.
Amil Niazi: Oh.
Josh Gwynn: If you're down.
Amil Niazi: I'm down. Let's do this.
Josh Gwynn: All right, let's do it.
*****MID-ROLL AD BREAK*****
Andrea Lewis: Hi, my name is Andrea Lewis and I played Hazel Aden on Degrassi. My favorite episode of Degrassi is definitely the Breakfast Club episode.
CLIP: Good morning, students. Glad you could all make it on a beautiful Saturday, but then it's not like you had much choice. Welcome to detention.
Andrea Lewis: It has myself, Stacey Farber, Aubrey Graham, Daniel Clark, Jake Goldsbie, and it just is iconic in my mind when I think about it, when I think about when we did it, just the whole entire thing. It was a great experience.
Josh Gwynn: We're going to play a game we've borrowed from the patron saint of this podcast, Tyra Banks.
Amil Niazi: Oh, yes. Say more.
Josh Gwynn: There's this clip of her interviewing Beyonce, and she basically just takes a bunch of random trivia questions and gives them punny titles. So she'll be like, "Seance, who would you like to talk to from the dead?"
CLIP: Okay, next one. If I were Tolstoy, can you do a Russian accent? Fadillac. What fad did you succumb to when you were young? Spouse of Dereon? I want to give you a wedding gift.
Josh Gwynn: You're looking at Beyonce's face and you're just realizing this is why she doesn't do interviews anymore.
Amil Niazi: Oh my God. God bless Tyra.
Josh Gwynn: God bless Tyra. So this game is called Degrassi: The Next Gamification. Here's how it works. I'm going to ask you a series of questions. A grab bag if you will. They have nothing to do with each other, but they all have titles that are riffs on Degrassi: The Next Generation. Basically, it's my show and I do what I want.
Amil Niazi: Okay. Oh my gosh. Okay. Seance, I'm ready to play.
Josh Gwynn: Degrassi: The Next Good Vibration. We can't talk about Degrassi without discussing some of the original music from the show. Can you name the fake band that wrote the following haunting lyric? You took my body, tore it in half. You took my childhood, my heart and my laugh.
Amil Niazi: Oh my God. Oh my God.
Josh Gwynn: Is A, Zit Remedy; B, PMS, Paige Michalchuck and the Sex Kittens, or C, Downtown Sasquatch?
Amil Niazi: Oh. Well, I mean, Zit Remedy was the band from the original Degrassi. I'm going to say it's B.
Josh Gwynn: It's B.
Amil Niazi: Yes. Okay. It's B.
CLIP: (singing)
Josh Gwynn: Next, Degrassi: The Next Hypersexualization of a Minor. So we talked about Manny before.
Amil Niazi: Mm-hmm.
Josh Gwynn: And one of the things I really like about the way that they handled her character was that you saw her character evolve from this cute sidekick that wore Limited Too to this one episode, it's called U Got the Look, where Manny decides to wear a thong. But not just wear a thong, but wear it like how people did in 2001, where you wore low-rise jeans and the thong came up above your jeans.
Amil Niazi: Mm-hmm.
Josh Gwynn: And it was the moment where she felt like she went from cute to hot.
CLIP: My look still feels too tame or cute. It's not this. This is what I need. A thong.
CLIP: What? It's perfect. What do you think?
CLIP: I think they shouldn't sell this at the mall.
Josh Gwynn: So Manny comes to school in this provocative outfit. And before she goes inside, she and her BFF Emma are discussing their missions for the year. Manny says, "Mine is to be hot instead of cute." What is Emma's mission? A, just getting through Spanish class; B, building a club at school dedicated to the environment, or C, connecting with her stepdad, Snake?
Amil Niazi: Emma, you nerd. C.
Josh Gwynn: Mm.
Amil Niazi: No? It's not connecting with Snake?
Josh Gwynn: It's building a-
Amil Niazi: Don't tell me it's Spanish class.
Josh Gwynn: It's not. It's building a club at school dedicated to the environment.
Amil Niazi: Oh, Emma.
Josh Gwynn: They got to save the ravine.
CLIP: This club will be my mission for the year. I'm calling it SITE, students improving the environment.
CLIP: Want to hear my mission? I want to be hot.
Amil Niazi: Yeah. I was actually also in the environment club. So.
Josh Gwynn: Really?
Amil Niazi: Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: I love that y'all had an environment club. Canada is so advanced. Degrassi: The Next Devastation.
Amil Niazi: These are incredible. You're a genius.
Josh Gwynn: JT's death on Degrassi is one of the single most heartbreaking deaths on television. Do you remember this episode?
Amil Niazi: Yeah, I do. It was very sad.
Josh Gwynn: Do you remember what JT's last words were?
Amil Niazi: Oh, no.
Josh Gwynn: Either A, "My car sucks. Ha, ha, ha. You guys slay me with your humor." B, "Why don't you two take your butts back to Lakehurst where you belong, eh?" C, "Hey. Listen up, you two. I'm just trying to get home. I don't want any trouble." D, "Hey, Liberty, girlfriend."
Amil Niazi: I mean, I want all of these to be the last words because they're remarkable. It's C. Is it C?
Josh Gwynn: No. It's A.
Amil Niazi: It's A.
Josh Gwynn: My car sucks. Ha, ha. You guys slay me with your humor.
CLIP: Oh, I get it. My car sucks. Ha, ha. You guys slay me with your humor.
CLIP: Yeah, mascot boy? Laugh at this.
Josh Gwynn: Wow.
Amil Niazi: Damn, I was going to say A.
Josh Gwynn: He went out-
Amil Niazi: JT.
Josh Gwynn: He went out... It was rough.
Amil Niazi: That was rough.
Josh Gwynn: I was like, "Damn." Honorary mentioned to "Hey, Liberty girlfriend," and a scene that pops up on Twitter once a week. So you have JT, and he looks like a mini version of Jamie Lee Curtis. And he's pretending to be gay because he doesn't want to tell Liberty that he's not interested in her. So he curls his wrist and throws on this super effeminate voice, and this is what you get.
CLIP: Hey, Liberty, girlfriend.
Josh Gwynn: And she's just ice grilling him.
Amil Niazi: Oh my God. Hey, Liberty, girlfriend.
Josh Gwynn: The last one, Degrassi: The Next Hip Hop Sensation. Do you remember when you found out that Drake was the same guy that was on Degrassi?
Amil Niazi: It was a-
Josh Gwynn: Was there a moment where you found out?
Amil Niazi: For me, it was more like, "I can't believe this huge rapper is Jimmy from Degrassi."
Josh Gwynn: I remember being a fan of the show, and me and my best friend Danny were at the Beverly Center, which is a mall in LA, and we saw him coming down the escalator. We were sitting in the food court and I was like, "Is that Aubrey Graham?" Because we were obsessed with Degrassi.
Amil Niazi: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Josh Gwynn: So she knew who he was. I knew who he was. Nobody else in the mall knew who he was. And she's like, "It is him." And I was like, "I think I read on Oh No They Didn't!," which was a LiveJournal community that gave you celebrity gossip, "that he was working on music." And we both looked at each other and cackled.
Amil Niazi: And look at him now.
Josh Gwynn: And look at him now. In 2018, though, Drake released a music video for his song I'm Upset, featuring many members of Degrassi: The Next Generation. Which of the following cast members were suspiciously absent? A, Ryan Cooley, AKA JT; B, Sarah Barrable-Tishauer, AKA Liberty; C, Andrea Lewis, AKA Hazel?
Amil Niazi: JT?
Josh Gwynn: That's correct. JT was not in the video. Bonus point. Why do you think JT wasn't in the video?
Amil Niazi: Oh, good question. I mean, I can't imagine there's beef with JT, but could there be?
Josh Gwynn: JT didn't go because he thought it was a scam.
Amil Niazi: Oh, no. Guys, that is exactly why Canada is a simulation, because only in this country would you have been the star of a huge teen show but then be so wary of being scammed as an adult.
Josh Gwynn: Right. Exactly.
Amil Niazi: That you wouldn't go be in Drake's music video.
Josh Gwynn: Exactly, exactly. So Amil.
Amil Niazi: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: I mentioned earlier how something I love about Degrassi is the fact that you often have within one episode a B plot that is like the most ridiculous sheer goofiness that you've ever seen on television and an A plot that's like this meaty, substantive issue of the week storytelling plot. And we've spent some time sitting in what I call B plot territory tonally, so I want us to really pivot to discussing some of the A plot material because it's really, really heavy and I want to discuss whether the show covered it successfully or not.
Amil Niazi: Right. So now we're going to do some deep reflection on Degrassi. This is a show that claimed to go there. I'm doing the air quotes. But we want to take a few of the topics the show covered and ask, did it really go there?
Josh Gwynn: Mm-hmm.
Amil Niazi: And what would it look like for this show or any other show to, I got to pull the air quotes back up-
Josh Gwynn: Go there.
Amil Niazi:... go there.
Josh Gwynn: Exactly. Go there.
Amil Niazi: What does it mean? What does it look like? And did Degrassi really manage to do that?
Josh Gwynn: Mm. Okay, so first category, teen pregnancy. Does it go there? So in the Degrassi lore, there's an episode that is missing from the American canon, and it's the episode where Manny has an abortion. It just wasn't available in America. I remember having to go on to LimeWire and waiting overnight for it to download and then watching it. But in this clip, we have Manny and her best friend, Emma, and she's telling her that her mom's going to drive her to the clinic to get the procedure done.
CLIP: I'm getting an abortion.
CLIP: You can't.
CLIP: Look, I know you think it's wrong.
CLIP: And your child would too.
CLIP: I'm just trying to do the right thing here for me. I wouldn't want to give a baby some crappy life with a mom who isn't ready.
CLIP: Yeah, well at least it would have a life. What about adoption? There are agencies with great counselors.
CLIP: I know, but I can't go through giving birth. It's so terrifying. And then going to school huge and everybody knows about it?
CLIP: You can get through all that.
CLIP: I can't. I swear. I'm 14.
Josh Gwynn: Ooh.
Amil Niazi: That's wild. I mean, first of all, is Emma on the Supreme Court? Can you calm down? Huge cop energy.
Josh Gwynn: Huge cop energy.
Amil Niazi: What is so amazing about this show is how layered this story is because Emma is the result of a teen pregnancy, right?
Josh Gwynn: Right, so she's internalizing this situation really, really heavily.
Amil Niazi: Exactly, and makes it immediately about herself, which how could you not? So it's actually does feel very authentic that that would be her initial knee-jerk reaction.
Josh Gwynn: Mm-hmm.
Amil Niazi: I think it's extra harsh coming from someone so young who has no clue about what it would take to actually raise a child and-
Josh Gwynn: And who's supposed to be her best friend.
Amil Niazi: Who's supposed to be her best friend. And I think Manny's so vulnerable and so obviously making the right decision for her, and I would be so gutted if my best friend reacted like that.
Josh Gwynn: Especially at that age-
Amil Niazi: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: ... when your best friend's opinions mean so much, you know?
Amil Niazi: So much. And you want her there. This is like the hardest, biggest, wildest decision of your life, and you need your friend to support you.
Josh Gwynn: Mm-hmm. It's crazy that literally as a nation, we're having this conversation right now.
Amil Niazi: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: You know what I mean?
Amil Niazi: I mean, the saddest thing that is actually going to break my heart right now is that it's probably worse now-
Josh Gwynn: Right, right.
Amil Niazi: ... for a teenager to go through this than it was when this show-
Josh Gwynn: When the show was on.
Amil Niazi: ... was filmed. Right?
Josh Gwynn: That's crazy.
Amil Niazi: That's gutting. So man, this show goes there.
Josh Gwynn: It went there. It went there. So we're in a heavy place. Let's just see it through, Amil. Sexual violence. Does it go there?
CLIP: It's so stupid.
CLIP: It's not stupid.
CLIP: Those shoes, I wanted it to work. I wanted him to want to be with me.
CLIP: He did.
CLIP: Yeah, sure
CLIP: He'll call you. You don't have to get so upset.
CLIP: I didn't even want to do it, Hazel. I said no over and over.
CLIP: You said no and he didn't listen? Paige, honey, if you said no, that's rape.
Amil Niazi: I mean, damn. I believe it's called Shout, the episode where Paige is sexually assaulted at a party. And it really informs her storyline, but I just felt like I had never seen anything like that on television. Even though I've watched every single teen drama that there ever was, but there was just something so authentic which made it gut-wrenching and made it-
Josh Gwynn: Right.
Amil Niazi: ... arresting and heart-stopping about that whole portrayal. And I thought the actress that plays Paige was so fantastic as well in just conveying all the different emotions that come with something like that. So for me, it's like they just did something that was so powerful and different.
Josh Gwynn: I just remember how intentional it felt. One of the things that I do think Degrassi did well at the end of the day was that it knew that these topics were a little bit uneasy and really tried to be intentional about the way that it introduced it to a young audience.
Amil Niazi: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: You know?
Amil Niazi: Yes, I totally agree.
Josh Gwynn: The reason that I would vote that it goes there for this clip is because of the power that comes with the ability to name something. Like, when you go through an experience and you're not able to put a word to it, and someone then gives you the word for you to be able to contextualize it, that's such a transformative moment and such an educational moment for them to display for this young audience.
Amil Niazi: Yeah, I agree with you. It went there. It goes there. And for Hazel to be able to say, "No, that was rape," I think so many young people have had similar conversations, not necessarily to that degree, but where they're just not sure. Because you don't have experience, you don't know what all of these things are supposed to look and feel like because you're doing them for the first time.
Josh Gwynn: First time.
Amil Niazi: And it really-
Josh Gwynn: It's so hard.
Amil Niazi: It's so hard, and you need someone to reflect that back to you and help you get there a lot of the time because you're just not sure what's normal.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Amil Niazi: And just thinking back to all the conversations I've had with my own friends where you're like, "Was this normal? Was that right? Is that okay?" And-
Josh Gwynn: Am I crazy?
Amil Niazi: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah, yeah.
Amil Niazi: Very powerful.
Josh Gwynn: Next, queerness. Does it go there?
CLIP: You just walked out on a date with one of Degrassi's coolest girls for your mom's pasta sauce? It doesn't make sense.
CLIP: Yes, it does.
Amil Niazi: So we see Spinner and Marco. Spinner's super mad at Marco because he walked out on his date with Hazel.
CLIP: Then stop crying and explain it to me because obviously, I'm a moron and don't get it.
CLIP: Because, Spin.
CLIP: Because why?
CLIP: Because I'm gay.
Amil Niazi: Spinner's giving him a real hard time about it, and he finally just comes out and says, "I'm gay." And I mean, okay. Being a teen watching that, I think it really wrongly informed how I just assumed everyone came out, which is that they were-
Josh Gwynn: Right.
Amil Niazi: ... basically forced out of the closet in a wacky-
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Amil Niazi: ... sitcomish situation-
Josh Gwynn: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Amil Niazi: ... where it's like go on a date with a woman and then eventually, you'll tearfully and very shamefully admit, "Okay, fine. I'm gay."
Josh Gwynn: Right, right.
Amil Niazi: It just made me think, and I'm sure made a lot of people think, that coming out was always this very horrible, forced situation.
Josh Gwynn: Mm-hmm. I think that it absolutely coincides with the narratives of coming out at the time when it was very common to see a magazine cover and it's like, "I'm gay."
Amil Niazi: Mm-hmm.
Josh Gwynn: Somebody being blackmailed into coming out in the public, you know?
Amil Niazi: Mm-hmm.
Josh Gwynn: I just remember watching this as a queer child and being like, "Okay. Well, I'm not doing that." It wasn't instructive at all. I wasn't like, "I'm going to tearfully come out to one of the most macho friends that I have."
Amil Niazi: Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: That's not what's going to happen. I did feel seen a little bit by Marco being there and especially his relationship with Dylan afterwards.
CLIP: I just thought you should know that there's someone I like.
CLIP: Oh. I mean, I understand. I'm too short, too young and too girly.
CLIP: And way too hard on yourself.
CLIP: Are you messing with me?
CLIP: Guilty as charged.
CLIP: You're such a jerk.
CLIP: Hey, take it easy. Haven't even asked you out yet. So tonight, you want to go see that zombie movie, or will it freak you out?
CLIP: Yeah, a little. But I want to.
CLIP: Good.
CLIP: Good. So it's a date?
Josh Gwynn: It was really revolutionary for me to see two queer teenagers in high school like everyone else. You know what I mean?
Amil Niazi: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: But the handling of the coming out made it look like coming out was always this thing that was tied to trauma and sadness and fear. And while it's still difficult for a lot of queer kids to come out, one of the main things that's changed is that we have a lot more varied representation of the coming out process and of queer people on TV. So when you're watching this clip of Marco coming out to Spinner, it's hard not to look at it with today's frame, with a Euphoria light on it, right?
Amil Niazi: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: And with that purple light, it just looks funny.
Amil Niazi: Yeah. It is the most obviously dated clip that we've seen so far.
Josh Gwynn: Mm-hmm. Most dated until race. Does it go there? Obviously, Back Issue is a show where we frequently cover race and Blackness in particular, and Degrassi tends to shy away from exploring race and racism. It just paints Canada as this post-racial, multicultural utopia. That is, until this one episode that happens post 9/11. You have Hazel, who is Somali, but is pretending to be Jamaican.
CLIP: Hazel Aden. So you're Jamaican.
CLIP: What was your first clue?
CLIP: Just Aden, not really a common name. Maybe in Somalia. Funny thing is, you sort of look Somalian too.
CLIP: Really? Well, why don't you mind your own business, Fareeza, before Jamaica declares war Iraq?
Josh Gwynn: And Hazel in this episode is being really mean to the hijabis in her school.
CLIP: But you guys want a real fashion crime?
CLIP: I think…
CLIP: Do you think they're maybe bald under there?
CLIP: Do you think maybe you're just a bit ignorant?
CLIP: You're under arrest. Crime? Terrorist chic.
Amil Niazi: Boy, oh boy.
Josh Gwynn: Do you remember this episode?
Amil Niazi: Now that we've seen the clip, it does take me back to that episode. Everything you're saying about the post-racial utopia is certainly something that Canada tries to present to the world.
Josh Gwynn: Mm-hmm.
Amil Niazi: I think it's something that a lot of white people specifically hold up as something that sets us apart from America, something that we should be really proud of. And obviously, there's a very painful colonial history. There's a very painful current divide and struggle with getting marginalized communities to feel empowered, and people still don't want to have that conversation because it's Canada, you know?
Josh Gwynn: Right.
Amil Niazi: It's a mosaic. That's a word that I heard a lot growing up, okay?
Josh Gwynn: A salad.
Amil Niazi: But obviously, on the surface you have, yes, post 9/11 microaggressions and just aggression, aggressions against Muslims, especially anyone who was hijabi or could be clocked very easily. It certainly happened to me when I was growing up and is something that you lived in fear of. And that's a very real sentiment, but I think what... The second layer of it with Hazel denying where she's from, you can see how Degrassi wants to have this conversation but they don't know how. And I'm sure it speaks to a writers' room that's probably very white, that doesn't have any experience either with Blackness, with Islam, that just doesn't know but feels like they have to have this conversation because it's historically, even going back to the old school Degrassi, been a topic that they've always struggled to handle well.
Josh Gwynn: It's just really interesting to me that in this story where they're trying to tackle racism, the racism is internal. It's not something that's coming from the society that she lives in.
Amil Niazi: Mm-hmm.
Josh Gwynn: It's her own issue. It's her problem. In fact, Ashley, the white girl, is like, "Y'all are ignorant."
CLIP: Do you think maybe you're just a bit ignorant?
Josh Gwynn: She's a good person in this situation in the plot, right?
Amil Niazi: Yes. That's so interesting.
Josh Gwynn: It's such an interesting way to avoid where the blame should actually go.
Amil Niazi: Well, Hazel has to be the one to wear this. Like you said-
Josh Gwynn: Right.
Amil Niazi: ... that the white people are the-
Josh Gwynn: They're progressive.
Amil Niazi: ... the allies.
Josh Gwynn: They're past it.
Amil Niazi: Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: They're okay with it. It's actually Hazel's problem.
Amil Niazi: It's Hazel's problem. That is very wild. I mean, what do you think? Does this go there? Where even is there in this episode?
Josh Gwynn: There? No, it does not go there. And when we asked Andrea Lewis, who plays Hazel in that scene we just heard, what she would change about Degrassi, she said.
Andrea Lewis: If there was anything that I would change about the series, it would be the diversity of the show. I would make sure that the characters of color, myself included, had prominent storylines, had full lives, were real characters and not just used as the token throughout the show.
Amil Niazi: Wow.
Josh Gwynn: That's real.
Amil Niazi: That was a very powerful little moment, right?
Josh Gwynn: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Amil Niazi: Because she said token, which means, to me, that she felt tokenized, that she felt her character was used to further the white actors'-
Josh Gwynn: Other storylines.
Amil Niazi: ... storylines. Hazel is a prop for Paige and her growth, and-
Josh Gwynn: Absolutely.
Amil Niazi: ... Hazel is a prop for somebody else's, Spinner's storyline or whoever's storyline to grow and progress.
Josh Gwynn: Really, the only storyline that I remember that was Hazel's is that 9/11 episode.
Amil Niazi: Yes. Exactly, which was horrific for-
Josh Gwynn: It was awful.
Amil Niazi: ... all the people of color involved.
Josh Gwynn: Right. We never got a chance to see her have a dream and then fulfill the dream.
Amil Niazi: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: Or have a want that was outside of herself and either not get it or get it. But it was... The episodes always hinged on somebody else's wants.
Amil Niazi: Yes. I mean, like she said, we didn't get to have full lives. I just think that's so telling and it says so much about what was going on behind the scenes with these actors-
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Amil Niazi: ... who were just kids, so they obviously did not feel empowered at the time to speak up. But I'm just so relieved that it's not just a question of we were watching it and we felt it was wrong. They were living it and they realized, "This is not okay and this doesn't feel right."
Josh Gwynn: Mm-hmm.
Amil Niazi: Yeah, it's a really refreshing thing to hear from someone involved with a show like that because they don't often feel comfortable challenging-
Josh Gwynn: Exactly.
Amil Niazi: ... the show that they were on.
Josh Gwynn: And another thing, just besides the point, I was on YouTube during the natural hair movement with everybody else trying to figure out how to do two-strand twists. And Andrew Lewis, who has amazing hair, used to have this series. And she talked about how on Degrassi, she always wore that headband because there wasn't someone there to do her hair. There wasn't someone there that understood how to work with the texture of her hair.
Andrea Lewis: I showed up to set like that on my very first day of filming, and the hair and makeup team was just like, "Cool. Great. Stay like that. That's it. We don't have to do anything." That's a lot of what happens to Black actors. They just don't want to touch you, honestly. I don't know why, but that's just... That's a whole other conversation.
Josh Gwynn: I wonder what the experience was like to not feel fully fleshed out in story, in character, but even when you arrive on set as a person.
Amil Niazi: Yes. Hair and makeup for people of color. We've only just started having that conversation. But when I was younger, I hosted a TV show in Canada, super local, so embarrassing-
Josh Gwynn: What? Ah.
Amil Niazi: ... but telling this story anyways, and the makeup artist never had the right foundation for my skin tone, so I would always end up on TV completely ghost-like, white washed.
Josh Gwynn: Oh, no.
Amil Niazi: They just had pink white makeup.
Josh Gwynn: Right.
Amil Niazi: And they never went out and bought the proper foundation for the host of the show.
Josh Gwynn: Right.
Amil Niazi: They just put me in white face. It just goes so deep when you feel like you are supposed to be-
Josh Gwynn: You aren't even supposed to be here.
Amil Niazi: You're not even supposed to be here, and we're not going to bother with the slightest of accommodations to make you feel comfortable or confident when you go on. And I just think thinking about someone that young and vulnerable who is trying to-
Josh Gwynn: Is coming into themselves as a teenager, right?
Amil Niazi: Yes, and then be on TV and be confident and be starring in this huge show. And then for her to have to feel like, "Man, no one here even cares about me or wants to bother knowing how to do my hair," it's just sad.
Josh Gwynn: It's sad.
Amil Niazi: It's sad.
Josh Gwynn: Especially on a show where if you looked at it, you would think that diversity was its strength.
Amil Niazi: Exactly.
Josh Gwynn: Because they have one character that's everything, but it's like... We're not even ready for this conversation, but diversity goes beyond representation.
Amil Niazi: Exactly. Oh my God. I mean, the word token is right there, right?
Josh Gwynn: Exactly.
Amil Niazi: It does not go there.
Josh Gwynn: We've unpacked a lot. It's really interesting how these scenes are so ingrained in my brain. Even after having not seen them for like 20 years or whatever, I still was mouthing every word.
Amil Niazi: It is surprising that similarly, I have not watched in a very, very long time and immediately was just like, "Can I see the whole episode? Why are you just giving me the clip? Let's go back."
Josh Gwynn: Exactly, exactly.
Andrea Lewis: Once again, this is Andrea Lewis who played Hazel on Degrassi. When I think about where Hazel would be now in 2022... I get this question a lot. I especially get this question with my friend Christina Schmidt, who played Terri on Degrassi. And we always say we definitely think Hazel and Terri are still friends to this day. I think that Hazel is actually a lawyer and works with people who are underrepresented, works with people who need a lot of help. I think that she found her voice and that she does something where she gets to really speak up.
CLIP: Learn, learn, learn, learn, learn something from this. Learn, learn something from this. Learn, learn something from this.
Josh Gwynn: So Amil.
Amil Niazi: So Josh.
Josh Gwynn: It's time to ask you the traditional question that we ask on this show, brought to us by perhaps the only person whose dramatic energy matches Degrassi. I'm of course talking about the patron saint of this podcast, the one and only Miss Tyra Banks. And the question is, did we.
CLIP: Learn something from this?
Amil Niazi: I mean, how could I possibly say no? Of course, I learned something from this.
Josh Gwynn: What did you learn?
Amil Niazi: I think the number one thing that I take away from Degrassi as a series, going all the way back to when I was a child, is just that kids are capable of so much more than we allow them. They are so attentive and thoughtful and curious, and we don't have to be so wary of talking about sensitive issues with them because they can handle it. Not only can they handle it, but I think that they can articulate so much more than even we can as adults sometimes.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Amil Niazi: And I just think it's a really good reminder, being on the other side of it now, is you don't have to be afraid of going there with kids. They want to go there, and they are going to actually push you to go even further than you thought you could go.
Josh Gwynn: Mm-hmm. Nowadays, people are afraid to introduce lots of different topics for lots of different reasons to this sort of age group. I'm thinking of all the books that they're banning in America-
Amil Niazi: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: ... and all the conversations around race and gender and I'm like, "Should we have just taken a page from Canada and put Degrassi on in grade six?"
Amil Niazi: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: Is that what we should've done?
Amil Niazi: Oh my God. I mean, I've learned so much from you, Josh, just in your insights in this episode, but exactly. If you think about what we've learned from this show from when we were kids to just the very real implications for what is not being taught at schools and what is being shielded from young kids, they need Degrassi more than ever. I mean, oh my God. It's like, let's get a secret chat room with all the teens of America and just play these episodes for them.
Josh Gwynn: Exactly. I think that's the thing that was the weirdest experience for me looking back at these episodes, was with Back Issue, with this show, we look back at a lot of pop culture moments and a lot of times, it feels like there's a proper amount of distance between them. It's like, oh yeah, that does feel like it was like 15 years ago. But a lot of these conversations, like we were talking about with Manny and the abortion episode or Paige and her episode, it's like these topics don't feel as far as they should.
Amil Niazi: Yes, yes.
Josh Gwynn: It's actually quite sad how close they feel.
Amil Niazi: Yes, and I can't help but think because trans rights are under attack, LGBTQ rights are under attack, obviously access to healthcare.
Josh Gwynn: Voting rights.
Amil Niazi: Voting rights, abortion access. And I just think a show like this, a new, new generation, would feel so necessary and so relevant and so important. But you could also just go back to Next Generation and feel like, "Wow, this a hundred percent speaks to me today." I think you could use this as an amazing platform to reintroduce this world to young people.
Josh Gwynn: Put it in the curriculum. Degrassi: The Next Next Next Generation.
Amil Niazi: I mean, if everyone's using TikTok as a search engine, why not use Degrassi as a textbook for learning?
Josh Gwynn: A word. Whoo.
ENDING CREDITS: Back issue is a production of Pineapple Street Studios. I'm the host and senior producer, Josh Gwynn. Back Issue was created by myself and Tracy Clayton. Our producers are Janelle Anderson, Xandra Ellin and Ari Saperstein. Our editors are Leila Day and Emmanuel Hapsis. Our managing producer is Bria Mariette. Our executive producer is Leila Day, and our intern is Noah Camuso.
Today's episode was produced by Xandra Ellin and edited by Emmanuel Hapsis. Our sound engineers include Sharon Bardales, Davy Sumner, Jade Brooks, Marina Paiz, Pedro Alvira and Raj Makhija. Art designed by Cadence13, and original music by Raj Makhija and Don Will. Executive producers for Pineapple Street Studios are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky.
I’m on Twitter and Instagram @regardingjosh. You can follow the show Instagram @backissuepodcast and you can use the hashtag #backissuepodcast if you’re still on Twitter because you sound like a dangerous individual and I like you. Sit next to me. You can subscribe to this podcast wherever free podcasts are sold. Tell your friends, tell your family, tell your enemies, tell everybody. It really does help, and especially if you leave a review. I'll see you next week.