BACK ISSUE
In Our Hot Takes Era
Do you have pop culture feelings you keep to yourself 'cause the world isn't ready for them? So do guests Hunter Harris, BA Parker, and Sam Sanders! On today's episode, they're bravely serving up their spiciest opinions in front of Judge Josh and making a case for their hottest takes in Josh's Court.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION
Back Issue Intro: Beyonce? You look like Luther Vandross. Ho, but make it fashion. I don't get no sleep because of y'all. It's Britney, bitch. We were rooting for you, Tiffany. We were all rooting for you. But I ain’t one to gossip… Who said that?
Josh Gwynn: Welcome to Back Issue, a weekly podcast that revisits formative moments of pop culture that we still think about. I'm your host Josh Gwynn, and today I'm not just your host and I'm not just Josh Gwynn, I'm Judge Josh. Hand me my robe! Hit the music.
Announcer Voice: Real people, fake cases. You are about to enter the courtroom of Judge Josh Judy Enabling Mathis Gwynn. With over 34 years of experience in the court of public opinion, he is not impartial, he is not rational, he is not reasonable.Now, all rise for Judge Josh. Josh's court is now in session.
Josh Gwynn: For today's docket, we have three cultural commentators sharing some of their spiciest pop culture takes with the court. Our guests have been tasked with bringing to the court an opinion that might be unpopular, controversial even, but it's a hill they're willing to die on.
Of course, I myself am no stranger to hot takes. Longtime listeners may remember back in season one when I used my platform to bravely defend Glitter and its soundtrack and the Lambily on this podcast. The idea that anyone would feel otherwise about a movie that is basically A Star is Born but with a better soundtrack is beyond the jurisprudence of this court.
For this episode though, I'm on the other side of the table, or should I say judge's bench?
Court Intro: Gavels. Briefcases. Robes. Objections. Tom Girardi. Lindsay Lohan's mugshot. Ammonium thioglycolate. Phaedra Parks, Mortician, Esq. Welcome to Josh's Court.
Josh Gwynn: We got some juicy defendants on the docket today. We've got Hunter Harris, we've got Sam Sanders. But the first opinion on trial today comes from B.A. Parker, the only one of the three brave enough to proceed without alliteration in their name. Also, host of NPR's Code Switch.
B.A. Parker: I already feel a little bit biased from that, but hello, Your Honor. It's a pleasure.
Josh Gwynn: Before we get started, please place your left hand on this copy of Michelle Obama's memoir, Becoming, and your right hand on Michelle Obama's memoir, The Light We All Carry, and swear to tell it like it is.
B.A. Parker: I swear on all that is Oprah, that I will not be silent.
Josh Gwynn: Or silenced?
B.A. Parker: Or silenced, and I swear to tell my opinions, my whole opinions and nothing but my opinions.
Josh Gwynn: So help you Yoncé?
B.A. Parker: So help me Yoncé.
Josh Gwynn: Court is now in session. Now, let's establish the ground rules for all of today's proceedings. You will have the floor to lay out your argument of your pop culture hot take, but I might jump in with some clarifying questions or with objections to points that I deem inadmissible.
B.A. Parker: Oh, boy.
Josh Gwynn: Like shading the witness. But before that, I'm going to have you summarize your take in one sentence and tell you how convinced I am of your opinion. We'll call it a preliminary ruling, and at the end, I'll say how much you've won me over. But first, Parker, please state in one sentence what it is you so bravely decided to present in Josh's court.
B.A. Parker: My take, Your Honor, is that the movie Mean Girls isn't all that. It is an average perfectly adequate movie, but not worthy of the love it gets.
Josh Gwynn: Wow. Wow. Didn't realize we were starting with crimes against humanity.
B.A. Parker: Okay.
Josh Gwynn: The Hague must have been busy.
B.A. Parker: All right, let's settle down.
Josh Gwynn: I'd say I'm starting from a place of being approximately 100% in disagreement with this take, but I will turn it over to you to lay out the foundation for your case. And first, for anyone who hasn't re-watched Mean Girls for the 800th time, can you please summarize the plot of this 2004 cinematic masterpiece?
B.A. Parker: All right, so you have Lindsay Lohan, who is this girl named Cady, who was raised in the jungles of Africa, which, ugh, okay. And then she moves to this affluent town and she meets some friends, the outsiders, who are both kind of queercoded, and they convince her to make friends with the popular girls, The Plastics. And Cady infiltrates their group and slowly but surely becomes a Plastic herself, but she thinks that she isn't. She is transformed and becomes as awful as Regina.
Josh Gwynn: Queen B.
B.A. Parker: And learns her lesson, so they tell me.
Josh Gwynn: Thank you for that overview, counselor. And with that plot recap in mind, Parker, let's hear your opening argument.
B.A. Parker: All right, here's the thing. I feel like Mean Girls is a perfectly fine film. Is it great? No. I feel like it's been used as a personality trait and I equate it to the way that men love Fight Club is the way I feel when people say that they love Mean Girls. I think it's an average comedy at best. Hella racist. To say it hasn't aged well, it didn't start well. And I think that so much of my 20s was having to know Mean Girls quotes because I was around people who were obsessed with the movie but not really learning from the movie. Does Everyone a disservice, but mostly me. And it came out in 2004, so I was in high school. I also went to a predominantly Black high school. And I think in pop culture, it was a very cruel time, like the era of Lindsay Lohan, Hilary Duff, low-rise jeans with the thong sticking out, peasant tops, where you'd have a female celebrity's name and then their size next to it in US Weekly.
CLIP: In Hollywood, you can never be too rich or too thin.
CLIP: The average American woman is now 5'4" and 164 pounds, which is drastically different from what we're seeing in celebrity's waists and heights.
CLIP: The camera adds 10 pounds to everyone. So actresses feel, wait, if that adds 10 pounds, maybe I should lose 15, 20 pounds.
CLIP: I really want to lose three pounds.
CLIP: Oh my God, what are you talking about?
CLIP: You're so skinny.
CLIP: Shut up.
B.A. Parker: It calls towards the cruelty of the era, but I don't think that is the way that its staying power has been interpreted. It's been used as a personality trait instead of a cautionary tale.
Josh Gwynn: So are you telling the court that you don't think that Mean Girls is a funny movie?
B.A. Parker: Did I laugh when I watched it last night? No. I only laughed when Amy Poehler, she got her breasts done and her dog kept like nibbling on her breasts.
CLIP: Tell me everything. What are you guys listening to? What's the cool jams?
CLIP: Mom, could you go fix your hair?
CLIP: Okay, you girls keep me young. Ugh, I love you so much.
B.A. Parker: That part made me laugh, but I'm pretty sure that was an improv.
Josh Gwynn: But as a film professor, someone who thinks about film, do you think that it's poorly constructed? Because I'll submit into evidence the fact that Tina Fey did get a Writers Guild nomination for Best Adapted Screenplay.
B.A. Parker: This is also during the time when she was winning everything because she was the only woman that people thought was funny because they were like, "Women can't tell jokes." And then she was like, "I'm the different kind of girl." I'm like, "Just because you wear glasses and didn't like a lot of girls when you were growing up does not mean... All right."
Josh Gwynn: You said something about going to an all-Black or predominantly Black high school as being part of the reason that you don't fuck with with Dream... With Dreamgirls? With Mean Girls.
B.A. Parker: Hold on, I fuck with Dreamgirls.
Josh Gwynn: With Mean Girls. And I'll give you, I mean, the movie is told from a very white, very privileged, very 2004 perspective. And the movie literally has one Black character, Tim Meadows as the principal. And the only time we actually see Black students is when we get a glimpse of this click known as the Unfriendly Black Hotties in the cafeteria.
B.A. Parker: Real talk, good for them. That table was fresh and they were too good for them broads anyway. It's okay.
Josh Gwynn: Which is my objection. Can we not call Tina Fey a freedom writer, a leader of the Civil Rights movement for leaving Black people out of this white mess?
B.A. Parker: No, because the way that she treated Asian people in that story was also poor. The way that they had an Asian character who was having an affair with the...
Josh Gwynn: Like the gym teacher?
B.A. Parker: Because as a weird sexualization.
Josh Gwynn: Ugh.
B.A. Parker: Also, the hypersexualization of my Indian King who was in the Mathletes, very problematic. The only great thing about Mean Girls is that at least three of the men, after that movie finished, came out as queer. That is the only good thing that really came out of Mean Girls.
Josh Gwynn: I want to enter something into the record. The court would like to hear you comment on exhibit A, also known as Mariah Carey.
CLIP: Everybody, all my girlfriends that are around me now, are just like, we're obsessed with Mean Girls because it's just funny. It's just one of those things where you start saying the little phrases and it catches on.
CLIP: On Wednesdays, we wear pink.
CLIP: On Wednesdays, we wear pink. That's where that vibe comes from.
CLIP: And I'd be like, "Why are you so obsessed with me?"
CLIP: And I was like, "Why are you so obsessed with me?" (Singing)
Josh Gwynn: The Elusive Chanteuse is a vanguard of our time and there's nothing more on this earth that she loves more than Mean Girls. So the court must ask the question, are you disagreeing with Mariah Carey? Are you calling her a liar?
B.A. Parker: I mean, she also loved Nick Cannon at one point and that was a bad look too. We learn, we grow.
Josh Gwynn: The court has heard enough to issue a verdict.
COURT STING:(Singing)
Josh Gwynn: All Rise.
B.A. Parker: Oh, boy.
Josh Gwynn: As you know, I started off 100% unconvinced with your take. I am now 50% in agreement with you.
B.A. Parker: Whew.
Josh Gwynn: Like comedy isn't evergreen and there are definitely things about Mean Girls that have aged poorly and things that were always problematic, but I think it's funnier than you're giving it credit, and sometimes maybe even thoughtful, even if some viewers took away the wrong message. I find the defendant B.A. Parker moderately convincing.
B.A. Parker: I'll take it. Thank you.
Josh Gwynn: B.A. Parker is excused from the courtroom, which means it's time to bring in a new plaintiff. Next on the docket, we have Hunter Harris, writer of the newsletter Hung Up, ready to plead her case. Welcome to Josh's court.
Hunter Harris: Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
Josh Gwynn: Hunter, can you state for the court your case?
Hunter Harris: Okay, my case is that too many celebrities get veneers and that celebrities should actually keep their real teeth.
Josh Gwynn: Okay. Wow. Hunter taking on literally all of Hollywood today in court. I'm floored and I'm truly split. I don't know how to feel about this.
Hunter Harris: Okay, well that's why I'm here.
Josh Gwynn: I'll say right now, my preliminary ruling is that I am 33.33333% convinced. But I'll turn it over to you, Hunter, to lay out your argument.
Hunter Harris: So I think I think about teeth too much because I think about smiles because I watch a lot of movies and TV and media and whatever, and it really wasn't until my first job in New York when I was looking at photos of celebrities all the time that I noticed that everyone has veneers.
Josh Gwynn: And maybe we should explain for the listeners... I mean, members of the jury that might not know, veneers are these little white caps that look like a perfect tooth that attach to the front of your teeth. And a lot of celebrities get them and they can be very expensive.
Hunter Harris: There was a Gawker story about this maybe two years ago or something, and it's that the really good veneers themselves are like $2,500 per tooth. And when I think about iconic smiles, I don't think about the sort of teeth-from-the-teeth-factory smiles, and when people get a certain amount of money or a certain amount of acclaim or a certain amount of Golden Globe nominations, they go to the dentist and get these veneers and they're so expensive, but they're also so impersonal. I think it's bad for acting and when I'm supposed to suspend my disbelief that a struggling musician or a coke-addicted chef or a single mother who's bringing a small town to its feet and a giant corporation to its knees, Erin Brockovich, has like $40,000 worth of dental work in their mouths. It's just not really conceivable to me in a way. And the real iconic smiles like Julia Roberts, her sort of rounded two front teeth, or Woody Harrelson having small teeth, or Penn Badgley having a gap in his teeth, or Kirsten Dunst having the fangs on the sides of her teeth, those are the smiles that I think about, not the ones that look like just a sort of drawing of teeth. So I think it does all of us a disservice.
Josh Gwynn: Objection.
Hunter Harris: Okay.
Josh Gwynn: I think that you're starting with a certain level of attractiveness.
Hunter Harris: Not you calling them ugly!
Josh Gwynn: No, no, no. I'm calling them pretty.
Hunter Harris: Okay.
Josh Gwynn: I'm saying people like Julia Roberts and Kirsten Dunst, they already fit this western beauty standard ideal, regardless of a gummy smile or a snaggle tooth. Their teeth don't make or break their careers. But then I look at someone like Cardi B who fits outside of that beauty standard. I think it's reasonable to think that she might have felt as though her teeth were holding her back. I submit this clip from Love & Hip Hop.
CLIP: I got crooked teeth, so I don't want people to look at my crooked teeth, so I'd rather them look at my (censored).
CLIP: Okay.
Josh Gwynn: So then she got her work done and she got her teeth fixed and she told us about it and that line from Bodak Yellow-
CLIP: (Singing)
Josh Gwynn: In summation, maybe getting veneers was a way for Cardi to signal the fact that she had made it and that she had the ability to cross over into new spaces.
Hunter Harris: I think that makes sense. I mean, I'm not saying that veneers writ large are bad, but I think that there is a type of person in Hollywood having teeth, like the Pete Davidson teeth, that are so garishly normal and there's nothing unique about them. There's nothing significant or even special about their mouths or their smile. With Cardi B, she has enough personality that she's Cardi B regardless, but I think veneers as a status symbol is the most... It's the clearest way to signify wealth and status, but also kind of the dumbest. It's not like a brow lift or Botox or something like that where you kind of can't tell. I think it is really to announce yourself, but it's like the announcement is too loud.
Josh Gwynn: Is that not what we want from our celebrities though, like a level of aspiration? Or are you saying that veneers aren't aspirational?
Hunter Harris: I don't think they're aspirational. People want nice teeth and white teeth and straight teeth and clean teeth, but not the perfect teeth that look like those, that look like the bricks for iPhone chargers, like laptop chargers. That's what people have in their mouths. That's not normal and it's also, for people who want to be relatable, it's not relatable.
Josh Gwynn: Well, Hunter, I'd like to move to oral arguments about some more oral examples.
COURT STING: (Singing)
Josh Gwynn: I submit into court record two side-by-side portraits of the most Boston man to ever Boston, Ben Affleck.
Hunter Harris: Okay. Do not use Ben Affleck against me. You cannot use a Leo against another Leo. You can't do that. And I will say I don't think that Ben Affleck's original teeth are that bad.
Josh Gwynn: They're not, but I'd submit him as a test case for good veneer work.
Hunter Harris: He just has a strange kind of man-from-Boston smile. He can't help that. There are no veneers for being from Boston.
Josh Gwynn: Yet. They haven't invented oral surgery to remove the Boston from one's mouth, yet. Okay, next up, I submit to the court records side-by-side portraits of an artist who made the rain and the Laguna Beach credits iconic, one of my favorite set of veneers in Hollywood, Hilary Duff.
Hunter Harris: I think these are the most famous veneers in Hollywood. They were just too big and you couldn't recognize her. It was uncanny valley of the Lizzie McGuire Hilary Duff teeth to the movie star Hilary Duff teeth. I think this test case, you can see how the original veneers do her so dirty. This honestly, really, I think proves my point more that the bad veneers that I'm talking about, the sort of same dull, just blank one-size-fits-all veneers are not attractive.
Josh Gwynn: The picture of Hilary Duff in my brain's contact app will always be long-veneered Hilary, even though she's removed them at this point in time.
Hunter Harris: Yeah, I think those veneers have packed up and moved into another celebrity's mouth, but I won't say who.
Josh Gwynn: So speaking of Hilary Duff, my brain is making another teeth connection because Hilary used to be married to this hockey player and a lot of hockey players lose their teeth because they fight in the sport and they end up getting veneers in order to not have three teeth. What's your opinion on that?
Hunter Harris: I think veneers for after an injury or if you have a bite problem or something like that, I mean, that makes sense. But again, I don't know who in their right mind would get 18 to 50 new teeth just to fix four. That feels crazy. And those are the big chompers that people are getting.
Josh Gwynn: Are you anti-flipper? It's very common in Toddlers & Tiaras, the pageants for little kids, where they wear temporary veneers basically because they haven't gotten all their teeth in yet.
Hunter Harris: No. I need to get this off my computer. This is not of the Lord. I'm so sorry, but absolutely not. I just have a complex too where I think it's disgusting when parents try to dress their kids up as miniature adults.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah, I'm not a big fan either.
Hunter Harris: Making children into miniature adults is not normal.
Josh Gwynn: How do you feel about teeth jewelry? So Diddy, Rihanna, FKA twigs, Pink, they all have diamonds in their teeth. Some of them are removable, some of them are actual dental work. What do you think of that?
Hunter Harris: One of my really close friends actually has a jewel in her teeth some white girl on drugs gave her at a party and it's like I would never let that girl touch my mouth, but I have no problem with that. Again, I think things that add character instead of taking character away are endearing and sort of iconic. I don't think it's in the same conversation as the big white keyboard veneers.
Josh Gwynn: How do you feel about grills?
Hunter Harris: I was a child in 2003. Like, yeah. I, at lunch, put foil on my teeth and called it grills.
Josh Gwynn: How do you feel about white people and grills.
Hunter Harris: Oh, absolutely not.
Josh Gwynn: Except for you, Paul Wall. You're the only one. Do you have a closing statement that you wish to enter on the record?
Hunter Harris: I think my closing statement would be that medically necessitated or chipped teeth veneers, that's a separate conversation. I am very much talking about the cosmetic status symbol, white piano key veneers, like a mouthful of them. I mean, I don't know how many teeth you're supposed to have, but sometimes I look at people and I'm like, "Damn." Like Faye Dunaway has like 75 teeth in her mouth and they're all veneers. Case closed. The defense rests.
Josh Gwynn: I would like to issue my verdict. I started one-third convinced, but after hearing your case, I am 90% convinced. I like your argument for individuality. I think it's very important.
Hunter Harris: Thank you.
Josh Gwynn: No, thank you, Hunter. I think you should seriously consider a second career in law.
Hunter Harris: Okay. My dad was a judge. He's retired now, so I've had a lot of practice.
Josh Gwynn: Period. We'll conclude today's hearings with a case brought to the court by counsel presently waiting outside of chambers. He's the Star Jones of pop culture, the Gloria Allred of podcasts, it's Sam Sanders, after a short recess.
***MID-ROLL AD BREAK***
Josh Gwynn: In the court, we've got our final plaintiff here, host of the podcast, Into It and Vibe Check, the honorable Sam Sanders. How you doing, Sam?
Sam Sanders: You know, thriving, surviving, conniving. All of the -ivings, all the -ivings.
Josh Gwynn: I love it. I'm thrilled to have you in my chambers ready to plead your case.
Sam Sanders: Me too.
Josh Gwynn: To restate the rules of today's proceedings once again, Sam, you'll lay out your arguments for your pop culture take as I chime in with questions, comments, commentary, and I'll deliver both a preliminary and a final ruling. So the floor is now yours, counselor. What is your hot take?
Sam Sanders: People have dogged Ciara's career. I argue that Ciara's career was actually pretty great if you consider her abilities and limitations, and just fine is just enough for an artist like her. Do you agree or disagree?
Josh Gwynn: My preliminary ruling, I mean, I'm in single digits, like 3%, 4% maybe convinced of your take because I mean, I went to school in Atlanta during the peak of the crunk movement. Ciara didn't live up to who she could have been. She had a great career and there's some bops and stuff, but there was like 75% more that she could have done with what she has.
Sam Sanders: How do you know?
Josh Gwynn: Just from seeing her perform and listening to the music and there were just moments where I was like, "Now you know that's not the right choice you needed to make, girl."
And hey, wait a minute, I'm not the one on trial here. You are. You're in my court. I'm wearing the robes. They're hot. That's all I'm going to say for now. And now it's on you, counselor, to lay out a compelling case.
Sam Sanders: I think I have to start laying out the case by laying out the larger idea that I think Ciara represents for me, that I've been grappling a lot with as our very western ideal of the monoculture just fades away. Stars aren't as big as they used to be. We don't all collectively watch or view or listen together as a country any more it seems. And so what does it mean to be famous, to be famous enough, and to be successful enough in that kind of fractured media world? I think Ciara is a model of success that is just adequate. She was adequately successful and that was enough. The thing about Ciara is that if you take away any kind of semblance of expectation for her career, she did quite well.
CLIP: (Singing)
Sam Sanders: She had a bunch of hit singles all in a row in two or three years, more than one went to number one on the charts.
CLIP: (Singing)
Sam Sanders: She had a few albums that topped the charts and went several times platinum. She was also a model. She always has endorsement deals and she married up.
Josh Gwynn: Wait a second, you think Ciara married up?
Sam Sanders: Oh, yeah, baby. That NFL money? That ain't no game. That is some serious money.
Josh Gwynn: I object.
Sam Sanders: Okay.
Josh Gwynn: I'm ruling the married up as inadmissible because the idea that anyone who plays football for a living is on a higher level than Ciara is hearsay.
COURT STING: (Singing) Shut your mouth.
Sam Sanders: I'm saying he has a more reliable income. But here's the other thing that we're not considering that is really hard just for women in the industry period, it is really hard to continue to grab the industry's attention as a woman over 30. You've got to be Janet level and Beyoncé level to maintain attention into your 30s and 40s. And the thing about Janet and Beyoncé, their parents were working them as children to train them for this life. If you don't have that headstart and you face the age expectations of the industry as a woman of color in the industry, listen, it's fucking hard. And we still talk about her and see her in the world.
And so if you just look at it in that regard, that's enough, especially given that she really could never sing that well. Right? But-
Josh Gwynn: Objection.
Sam Sanders: Go ahead. Go ahead.
Josh Gwynn: Objection. Badgering the witness. I think that there is enough evidence to prove that Ciara could have been our generation's Janet Jackson.
Sam Sanders: What if she didn't want to be that? And also, why do we put any pressure on any kind of celebrity to be that? There is this pressure on celebrity, particularly Black celebrity, to not just get famous, but to get famous and stay famous and always get bigger and always be the next whatever. Be the next Janet, be the next Diana Ross, be the next whoever.
What if a great career is five years in the sunshine and then you go have your babies? Ciara represents that to me. Now, she did get that way through a series of failures. She probably would've loved to have been on the charts for 15 years. It didn't work out for her, but she settled into a very Ciara existence, and isn't that enough?
Josh Gwynn: Objection.
Sam Sanders: Object? Okay, tell me.
Josh Gwynn: Relevance. Because I would argue that as a spectator, you can see that there's a desire to still do it, to elevate, to get better. It seems as though there's an internal goal there. I could see if she just walked away from music.
Sam Sanders: In my mind, she's already walked away from music because I'm not listening to those songs. In my mind, Ciara is entering that like LL Cool J liminal space where we know him more as the host of the Grammys than the rapper.
Josh Gwynn: I mean, LL had that moment where he was telling everybody that they call him Big Elly and he had the comeback with Timbaland and Headsprung and that duet with J. Lo.
Sam Sanders: But I guess, but why are we placing any expectation on her at all? Why do we place expectation on celebrity besides, "I liked that thing you did. Whatever else you do, go ahead"? For me, Ciara is a way to ask that question. We have this weird expectation of fame and it's like, Lord forbid you get famous and not stay famous. Lord forbid you get big and not always get bigger. Lord forbid you have a chart topping album that's not followed by five more. But it's like, what if that's okay? I want us to live in a pop culture world where some rando from down the way can have a single that takes off and then they're like, "Okay, I'm good. Buh bye." And I think that is what I want.
Josh Gwynn: Why can't we all be Jesse McCartneys?
Sam Sanders: That's what I'm saying!
Josh Gwynn: I got to say, I think you picked a really hard case to plead because part of me is always going to root for Ciara to achieve the most because I was there. I saw all of the unfair slack that she got.
Sam Sanders: People were calling her Cierror. Cierror. Remember that? Remember that? The Cierror moment.
Josh Gwynn: I remember when Rihanna asked her what stage she was going to get booked on. "Good luck on booking that stage you speak of." I think on one hand, I feel like this almost That's So Raven-esque vision. I can see what would've happened if she had followed "Body Party" with some trap R&B, with some dope choreography, and a world where she would've just been like that girl, like baby Janet. But I also think you're right in that we should have a space within culture for people to have just a good enough career and "1, 2 Step" away from it.
Sam Sanders: Whenever someone wants to tap out, either because they have have to or they want to, I support the tap out. Ciara's tap out might have been a thing she didn't want, but I'm glad that she is not under such pressure right now to just constantly outperform herself. It's hard. And I think a lot about even the way that we talk about companies and business and America right now, everything is bent towards growth. Your company is only successful if it's continually growing and never stops growing. But unchecked, unmoderated growth is cancer.
Josh Gwynn: Counselor, are there any final comments you wish to enter into the record before I issue my ruling?
Sam Sanders: A lot of people say that Ciara had a bad career, but in my opinion, Ciara represents what could be the platonic ideal of a celebrity career in this moment of pop culture, which is good enough. We don't need to always be bigger and better. Be Ciara. Be a Cierror, if you want.
Josh Gwynn: I'm ready to issue my ruling. I, Judge Josh, declare the case unresolved. Call it a hung jury, call it a mistrial. I don't think we have enough information to come to a verdict.
Imagine it. Maybe Ciara will call it quits tomorrow or maybe there's going to be like some sort of Ciara renaissance right around the corner where we're all going to be doing the "1, 2 Step" again. I think we just have to keep monitoring her impact and reopen the case at a future date.
So, I do appreciate you bringing this controversial topic into the court and starting a conversation.
Sam Sanders: I love this conversation. I'm a big fan. Keep doing what you do.
Josh Gwynn: Thanks, Sam, and thanks for coming to Josh's Court.
COURT STING: (Singing)
Josh Gwynn: Before we end the episode, it's time for my favorite part of being a judge, telling other people what to do.
Announcer Voice: Put your hands together. It's time for the sentencing where you're going to be told what to do and you have to do it or pay a $300 fine that has to be made out as a personal check to Judge Josh.
Josh Gwynn: In the case of B.A. Parker versus the state of Tina Fey's nerve, Regina George's neck brace, and the girl who looks like Danny DeVito in the bathroom, "I love your work," I sentence the defendant to 18 months of wearing pink every Wednesday.
B.A. Parker: I'm prepared to file a dismissal because of the judge's bias towards Mariah Carey. How am I supposed to compete with MC squared? How am I supposed to compete with that?
Josh Gwynn: In the case of Hunter Harris versus Hilary Duff's first set of veneers, RIP to a real one, I sentence Hunter to 20 hours of community service helping to remove celebrity veneers by hand.
Hunter Harris: I came in here correct and I have left here correct, so I feel very vindicated. Judge Josh is a very fair judge and I think justice has been served today.
Josh Gwynn: In the case of Sam Sanders versus the talented enough/underrated Ciara, I sentence Sam and Parker and Hunter and everyone to keep having juicy opinions and keep sharing them with the world, even if they're wrong.
Sam Sanders: I am all about getting mucky and messy and talking about the points of contention and being contentious for contentiousness's sake because sometimes that leads us to a bigger, better idea.
Josh Gwynn: And with that, court is adjourned.
Announcer Voice: Judgments delivered in Josh's court are final in binding. Defendants who don't complete their sentences may be required to serve additional time as determined by district attorney Miranda Hobbs. Aiding and abetting people with hot takes will be punished to the full extent of the law in accordance with both the Geneva Convention and the Genovia Convention. Offenders may be pardoned or have their senses commuted if they prove that they're reformed individuals who are contributing members to society or if they're able to memorize every lyric to every track on The Emancipation of Mimi. Josh's court is filmed in front of a live Josh.
ENDING CREDITS: Back Issue is a production of Pineapple Street Studios. I'm the host and senior producer, Josh Gwynn. Back Issue was created by myself and Tracy Clayton. Our producers are Janelle Anderson, Xandra Ellin and Ari Saperstein. Our editors are Leila Day and Emmanuel Hapsis. Our managing producer is Bria Mariette. Our executive producer is Leila Day, and our intern is Noah Camuso.
Today's episode was produced by Ari Saperstein and edited by Emmanuel Hapsis. Our sound engineers include Sharon Bardales, Davy Sumner, Jason Richards, Jade Brooks, Marina Paiz, Pedro Alvira, and Raj Makhija. Art design by Cadence13 and original music by Raj Makhija and Don Will. Executive producers for Pineapple Street Studios are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky.
I'm on Twitter and Instagram @RegardingJosh. You can follow the show on Instagram @BackIssuePodcast, and if you use the hashtag #BackIssuePodcast to talk about it on Twitter, you sound like you like chaos, and I like you. You can subscribe to this podcast wherever free podcasts are sold, you can leave a review. Tell your friend, tell your family, tell your enemy, tell everyone, because it really, really does help. I'll see you next week.