BACK ISSUE

“In Our Singer Songwriter Era”

Josh Gwynn: Hey, Tracy.

Tracy Clayton: Hey Josh. How you doing?

Josh Gwynn: You know, I've been here holding it down this whole season. We talked Cheetah girls, we talked Halle Berry, we talked Degrassi, all my favorite things. And this right now, right here, right now is the final episode of this season.

Tracy Clayton: I mean, wild.

Josh Gwynn: It's wild.

Tracy Clayton: I can't believe it. Where has the time gone?

Josh Gwynn: Oh, I know where the time went for me. I spent it doing this thing.

Tracy Clayton: Wait. Oh no. What did you do?

Back Issue Intro: Beyonce? You look like Luther Vandross. Ho, but make it fashion. I didn't get no sleep because of y'all. It's Britney, bitch. We were rooting for you, Tiffany. We were all rooting for you. But I ain't one to gossip... Who said that?

Josh Gwynn: Welcome to Back Issue, a podcast about formative pop culture moments we still think about. I'm your host, Josh Gwynn. So Tracy...

Tracy Clayton: Uh-huh?

Josh Gwynn: You know that I've always had this goal. I've always wanted to be able to put together a song and then record it in a studio. And when I was thinking about what the last episode of this season should be, the first thing that popped into my head was this MTV show from the early 2000s. It was called Made. Do you remember that show?

Tracy Clayton: Oh my gosh, yes.

Josh Gwynn: For those of you who don't know, Made was this show on MTV, and they would take kids in high school and they would get made into something, like a DJ, or a soccer player, or a model.

CLIP: I want to take a chance. To be the best. I want to be made.

CLIP: Meet Christine. She wants to be made into a model. To the runway, please. You're not wowing me. You're walking like Robocop. It's going to take a lot of work.

Josh Gwynn: And you watch them get pushed to their limits, get up at 6:00 AM, train, get tired, and then they would enter them into some sort of final challenge where they would perform their talents in public. One of the biggest things that scares me around the idea of writing a song and putting it together, recording it, it's always been being vulnerable in front of people.

Tracy Clayton: Mhmm. Same.

Josh Gwynn: I am a Capricorn. I don't know if you've realized that. And I tend to have issues with doing things in public that I'm not really good at.

Tracy Clayton: I feel, it's like you are afraid of looking like a fool in front of a bunch of people. So I'm really proud of you for trying stuff.

Josh Gwynn: So, I want to put myself out there and I want to try to make a song, and I want to do this because music is a really, really, really big part of me. Not just listening to music. I listen to music all the time, but I hear it, like random beats in my head and melodies that I don't know how to communicate. They don't have anywhere to live. I don't know how to play an instrument, but I constantly have music around me. Even in my work, like in the shows that I make, the scoring is really important to me. I spend a lot of time picking songs and being like, it should come in here and it should fade here. Let's put a reverb tail here, so that the shows that I make this one feel the way that I want them to. I've always wanted to create music. I've always wanted to take what I heard in my head and have it play in real life. I remember when I was in middle school, my mom wrote this article that said kids that played an instrument, they did better in school. She was like, "I signed you up for two." But I didn't know what I wanted to play. I looked at the musty boys who played the drums, like one drum. Like, not a drum set, just like, one drum, like that Nick Cannon movie. I was like, nah. I saw myself as more of a brass girl. You know, loud, pronounced. So I picked up a trumpet, then a saxophone, but I never mastered any of them. I always gave up before I could get good. But I'm not giving up this time. Today, today, on this land, I'm going to become a songwriter.

Tracy Clayton: Oh my gosh.

Josh Gwynn: So at the end of this, I'm going to play it for you and I want you to tell me exactly what you think, and you have to be honest.

Tracy Clayton: Absolutely. Is there choreo? Can we get, it's like a full stage production? Is there pyro? Don't spoil it for me. Just surprise me. Surprise me.

Josh Gwynn: Okay, okay, I won't. Before we get to that song, I'm going to take you back to the very beginning when I decided to put this together and introduce you to my coaches. 

Josh Gwynn: I have these three coaches, coaches that I really trust to not make me sound, and more importantly, feel, dumb during this process, because it is a process, and it's one that I really have no idea about, right? I've never put together a song before. There's Rich, whose role was like recording engineer.

Rich: My name is Rich. I'm going to be Josh's coach for recording.

Tracy Clayton: No, I know this young man. Good, good, good.

Josh Gwynn: There's Claire. She's a singer, she's a songwriter and she has this band, it's called Tiny Deaths.

Claire: Hey, my name is Claire. I’m from Tiny Deaths and I'm going to be Josh's coach for songwriting/vocals.

Josh Gwynn: And there's Raj, who is a music producer.

Raj: Hey, this is Raj, AKA Cooked by Raj, and I'm here to be Josh's coach for music production.

Tracy Clayton: Shout out to Raj. Okay, so you got a nice little team.

Josh Gwynn: Yeah, we got a nice little team, nice little squad, and all of them committed to working with me to put the song together. We were going to work in the small studio, all four of us together in one room. We all set up three studio sessions over the course of three weeks. So the first studio session, we were going to build out a beat that we liked. The second studio session, we had to write lyrics that fit the song and what I wanted to say. And the third, I had to perform it so that we could record it, and then we had to mix it.

Tracy Clayton: Wow, my brain is already... I did not consider that at all.

Josh Gwynn: It's like, duh.

Tracy Clayton: Right. So far, I'm feeling it. I'm into it. It's a lot that you got going on, a little bit. So I mean, I'm here. I'm going to let you land and I'm just going to see how it unfolds.

Josh Gwynn: Yeah, you sit back and watch how this all unfolds. I'm going to take you on a fantastic voyage of my sound journey. Let's take it back and start at the top.

Josh Gwynn: Session one. I don't know, y'all. There's a million different ways that you could write a song. The way that we decided to start was by going through sounds that we liked.

Rich is working through all these sounds on this platform, it's called Splice, and it's basically a library of different sounds and loops and vocals and percussion. It's kind of like a music apothecary.

Claire: These are pretty moody so far.

Josh Gwynn: I know. 

Josh Gwynn: You know that feeling when you go to the grocery store and you're walking down the aisle and there's like a thousand different kinds of ketchup? Going through the beats and sounds, I felt this form of task paralysis or option paralysis, where I was just like, am I making the right choice? Rich is cycling through all these different sounds and I'm just like, there's so many options! Until it just hit me in the chest.

Josh Gwynn: There we go.

Claire: That's Definitely closer to the vibe, for sure.

Josh Gwynn: I could feel it in my sternum. As soon as I heard it, I knew it. I knew it. I knew it right away. That drum loop, it just felt so strong and it gave me the feeling of someone in heels walking across a hard floor, just like clack, clack, clack, clack, clack. And it made me want to throw a little dance too, so there's that. Okay, so we did it. We found the loop, which would carry the song, but what was the song even about? Which brings me to the next session. Session two.

Josh Gwynn: (singing) Who said that? You said that?

Josh Gwynn: Choosing what the song was about was, ugh, so hard. I mean, we landed on this loop, but now I had to songwrite, and that's always been really, really hard for me. I'm not good at writing songs. I've tried this before and it was a nightmare. I was like, okay, what are some important issues to me, to culture, to society? And the first thing I thought of was something that I know I've heard folk singers sing about, especially in the sixties and the seventies, the environment. So I was like, should I write something about the climate crisis?

Josh Gwynn: (singing) They gave me a plastic straw, 'cause they didn't care at all about the environment, 'cause they were trying it. Something like that.

Josh Gwynn: Bitch, I was trying it. I was like, what else is a pressing issue that feels really immediate to me? And I thought about all the book banning and the banning of Black American history being taught, and I was like, when aren't racists racist-ing? So I was like, you know what? I'm going to make a song about Karens.

Josh Gwynn: (singing) With your bad haircut, tell me where you live, Karen. I want to talk to your manager. Something like that.

Josh Gwynn: And as soon as it came out of my mouth, I was like, this ain't it. This ain't it. People are marching in the streets and I'm over here putting this out? I'm not trying to be on the wrong side of history. My ancestors would've slapped me in the back of my neck. I was like, okay, I can play it a little bit safer. What are most songs about? Duh, love. I could write a love song and y'all know my soft side for loving pop punk emo bands from the 2005. So I was like, what if I wrote a love song in the style of Taking Back Sunday or Coheed and Cambria?

Josh Gwynn: (singing) I can't believe this love I found, even though I want to get out of this town. Give me back my skater belt I left at your place. Ugh!

Josh Gwynn: So this time, I maybe wanted to write a song that wouldn't make me cringe for the next 40 years. So I tried to work through what I was feeling with my coaches.

Josh Gwynn: I feel so stupid.

Claire: Don't feel stupid. Do I look like I'm judging you right now?

Josh Gwynn: No, I know you're not. But I feel stupid.

Claire: But okay, let's unpack that. Why do you feel stupid?

Josh Gwynn: Because I'm doing something that is uncomfortable.

Claire: I think it's good to differentiate between feeling uncomfortable and feeling stupid. There's nothing stupid about what you're doing.

Josh Gwynn: I know.

Claire: It's brave, it's badass, it's cool. You know what I'm saying? It is also uncomfortable. That's real.

Josh Gwynn: I started to feel like, you know what? I'm here. I might as well just give in and try it. If it's awful, then at least I tried, you know?

Josh Gwynn: Okay, let's do it.

Rich: Well, let me ask you this. So just hearing this, what comes to mind in terms of harmony and lyrics and words, or what?

Josh Gwynn: I didn't know what I wanted to say, so I closed my eyes and I tried to listen to myself. It's not always an easy thing for me to do. The first thing I heard was a long, exhausted sigh, like... I don't know if y'all have noticed, but outside is some bullshit. There's all this push to get back to normal, all these CEOs talking about how remote work is going to ruin the economy while they take extra pay bumps, and all these attacks on communities that I belong to and that I love. And it's exhausting. It's tiring. I wake up exhausted.

CLIP: (singing) Try and keep your head up to the sky.

Josh Gwynn: I don't know if y'all remember this song. It’s 1994’s adult contemporary smash that was in every soundtrack and every commercial. It’s ‘Gotta Be’ by Des’ree.

CLIP: (singing) You gotta be, you gotta be bad, you gotta be bold, you gotta be wiser. You gotta be hard, you gotta be tough, you got to be stronger. 

Josh Gwynn: I love this song. But I also acknowledge it is not 1994. So then, what's my version of an affirmation song today? I'd say it's this..

CLIP: (singing) Earl on the beat…

Josh Gwynn: Act Up by the City Girls, a song that makes me feel like anyone would be lucky to have me max out all of their credit cards.

CLIP: (rapping) Fuckin' on a scammin' ass, rich ass nigga.

Josh Gwynn: Or this.

CLIP: (rapping) If you wanna see some real ass, baby, here's your chance.

Josh Gwynn: That's Savage (Remix), Megan the Stallion featuring Beyonce, which makes me feel like swag on a hundred thousand.

CLIP: (rapping) Please don't get me hype. Write my name in ice. Can't argue with these lazy bitches, I just raise my price. 

Josh Gwynn: Or this.

CLIP: (rapping) Y'all calling me crazy, when a bitch been ballin' all day like Brady.

Josh Gwynn: That's Doechii with her song, crazy. She's being a hundred percent herself without compromise. She's expressing herself authentically.

CLIP: (rapping) ...Counting on daydreams. Crazy, got 'em going crazy. None of these hating ass bitches gon' phase me, like Jay-Z. Crazy, got 'em going crazy. None of these hating ass bitches gon' phase me. No better, no crazy.

Josh Gwynn: I've always loved a song where an artist is just talking their shit. In a culture that always teaches, especially queer people, especially Black people, especially queer Black people, to be humble, to take a little, to take as little space as possible, it's so refreshing to see someone spread their elbows out, take what they feel like is theirs, to exist without compromise. So when Raj, my music producer, Made coach asked me...

Raj: What do you want to write about, Josh? How are you feeling?

Josh Gwynn: It just came to me.

Josh Gwynn: I just want a bad bitch anthem.

Josh Gwynn: Bad bitch anthem, an affirmation song. A song where I could listen to it and feel renewed and like a bad bitch. So eight hours later, we had a beat, we had the outlines of what felt like an idea coming together, but then I was like, oh shit, we need lyrics. I hadn't written anything down, and that's definitely not something a bad bitch would do.

***MID-ROLL BREAK***

Josh Gwynn: Back Issue, and we're back. My Made coaches gave me some homework. I was supposed to write down some ideas for what type of lyrics I wanted to write for the song. And of course, I psyched myself out and didn't come up with anything. I had writer's block real bad, like real bad. So I did what I always do when I can't get work done, procrastinate on the internet, look through a bunch of old videos online, and when I was doing that, I came across a clip that would send me to Bad Bitch Nirvana. A clip from one of my favorite creators, Issa Rae. It's a clip.

Claire: There's that Issa Rae sample. I'm sorry, but it's me season.

Josh Gwynn: It's me season. Y'all going to be real mad at me.

Claire: Yeah.

Josh Gwynn: I like that one. Let's do that.

Claire: Yeah.

Josh Gwynn: Let pull that.

Claire: Okay, cool.

Josh Gwynn: I love this idea. I love it. I loved the idea of celebrating all the hard work you had put in, taking a moment to acknowledge the bad bitch that you are. I was like, okay, okay, let's keep going. Put the clip at the top of the song. Let's hear it, let's hear it, let's hear it, let's hear it.

CLIP: It's feeling like me season right now.

Josh Gwynn: It's timely.

Josh Gwynn: I felt the momentum. The ball was rolling. More words began to appear as we built on this idea of me season.

Josh Gwynn: Like inflation, raised my fee.

Claire: Oh, that's kind of catchy.

Josh Gwynn: We had the outlines of a song. We had a beat, we had a chorus, we had a verse. But you know when you have a dish and it has all of these ingredients, but it just doesn't taste exactly like how you had it in mind? It's good, but it's not hitting, like you know when you do the shoulders, with hitting. I felt like this, and I didn't know exactly why, so I called my resident chefs for our third session.

Josh Gwynn: Session three. It's missing the sauce.

Raj: I kind of hear that, feel like some of the parts might be too many layers of vocals, a little congested.

Rich: And It's wordy too.

Josh Gwynn: It's wordy, yeah.

Josh Gwynn: Rich and Raj went to work taking out elements, unearthing a song below. It was like clay. Things began to clear up and I started hearing my voice in a different way. As we worked and we worked and we worked and we worked, part of the songs just started clicking. They started making sense to me. We started adding new lyrics.

Josh Gwynn: Bitch!

Claire: Yes! That's the energy we want.

Josh Gwynn: Vocal elements.

Josh Gwynn: (rapping) On my grind. Ah, ah, ah, ah.

Josh Gwynn: Different percussive elements

Josh Gwynn: Not the shakers!

Josh Gwynn: Vocal effects.

Josh Gwynn: (rapping) ...It's me. On my easel while they sleep on that inflation, raised my fee.

Josh Gwynn: That one sounds so late '90s.

Josh Gwynn: Background vocals.

Claire: You just swiped left.

Raj: Oh, what was that, Josh?

Josh Gwynn: Something like that.

Josh Gwynn: I kept feeling like the song was full of right angles, like it was hard. And the attitude was supposed to be hard. I want it to feel hard. But in the great words of Des'ree...

CLIP: (singing) Not too, too hard.

Josh Gwynn: I wanted to add an element that I feel like Rich would call lush. He found this synth, right? It was called Cloud Supply, and this synth changed the entire vibe of what we had been making. And then Raj started playing these chords and it changed even more. It kept feeling like it was getting closer and closer to what I heard in my head.

Josh Gwynn: It feels like a completely different song. It's crazy how that can happen.

Raj: It's magic.

Josh Gwynn: It's like one texture, and all of a sudden everything's different. That's wild.

Josh Gwynn: At the end of this last songwriting session, I felt like someone had taken a 20 pound weight off of the top of my head. I was really mad at myself for having this idea. It was really hard, but at the end, it was worth it. I interviewed my coaches to see how they felt about my progress. Here's what Claire had to say.

Claire: You're vocalizing those ideas in a way that's a lot more direct and confident and self-assured, and I think you seem a lot less shy about voicing opinions and ideas and putting your stamp on the song. So I've seen a lot of self-actualization.

Josh Gwynn: Okay!

Claire: Confidence.

Josh Gwynn: Okay!

Claire: And then also, I think your abilities as a vocalist have improved as well.

Josh Gwynn: Rich and Raj also had some thoughts.

Rich: I mean, the difference that I noticed is just you overall being more comfortable. I've seen the progression from one session to the next, especially compared to the first one.

Josh Gwynn: What do you think, Raj?

Raj: I agree. You're super musical and talented, so you have it. You already have it in you, and it was just about getting those reps in and getting more comfortable, and of course being around people that you feel comfortable around and in spaces that feel safe.

Rich: I think that's what Raj was saying. You already had it, so it was just like, how do we just get that out and show you how to translate it into Ableton and recording?

Josh Gwynn: Y'all are really sweet. I really appreciate it. Thank you for letting me learn from y'all. I really appreciate it.

Josh Gwynn: Tracy, you still with me?

Tracy Clayton: Yeah, girl, I'm here. Been listening the whole time. I'm here. I'm here.

Josh Gwynn: I have to finish out the rest of my challenge, so I'm going to play you the song that I worked so hard on. And my stomach is on the floor.

Tracy Clayton: Why?

Josh Gwynn: I'm so nervous, because I really...

Tracy Clayton: It's just me.

Josh Gwynn: I know, but it is you, and I just... You're my friend and I value your opinion, and I also value your taste level. So I feel like if you think it's wack, it's wack. You know what I mean?

Tracy Clayton: Yeah. I'm going to agree with that. I'm usually right. But I promise that even if it is wack, which I cannot figure that it would be in any universe, I'll still be your friend. I got friends that make wack music. I'm not going to name no names. But I'm sure that it's not going to be wack.

Josh Gwynn: Okay, I'm going to play the song for you.

Tracy Clayton: This is so exciting. I feel like I'm front row at a Beyonce show. I love it.

Josh Gwynn: All right, here's the song.

SONG: Five, four, three, two, one. I don't know what to say. It's feeling like me season right now. I feel so bad for anybody who doesn't fuck with me. I been getting mine, been on my grind. I'm getting duckets and it's my time. I'm living rent-free in their minds. I'm all up in they minds. I'm all up in they minds. But I specialize in home design. On my HGTV, it's like...

My me season, it's me. On my Issa while they sleep on that inflation, raise my fee. Everybody, me season on three. My me season, it's me. On my Issa while they sleep on that inflation, raise my fee. Everybody, me season on three. One, two, three, and we hit them with a… Mute me, block me, whatever you need to do, because it's the me season right now.

Tracy Clayton: Oh my! Excuse me and you and everybody else in here! You thought I was going to dislike that? Did you bump your head while you were making the song, Josh? This is so good.

Josh Gwynn: Ahhh!

Tracy Clayton: It's so good. Also, this is like a for real song that you could play at a party. I'm going to have a party just so I can...

Josh Gwynn: So we can play the song?

Tracy Clayton: Yes, for real! Wait, though. Wait, though. Wait, wait, wait. Do you need a listening party? A premier party? Is that what they do on Love and Hip Hop? It's happening.

Josh Gwynn: Yes!

Tracy Clayton: Can't wait. Oh my gosh! This is amazing. This is like...

Josh Gwynn: I'm so excited that you like it.

Tracy Clayton: You got background vocals and actual production. I don't know what I was expecting. I knew it was going to be good, but this is like a song, song. A song, song, song-song-song. It's like a song-song. Oh my goodness.

Josh Gwynn: I would not have been able to do it without Rich and Claire and Raj. They were my guides, but also therapists on my way to music-making land. This was so uncomfortable and so awkward. It made me so nervous, and I felt stupid so many times, and each time they'd be like, "Okay, calm down. You're doing something new. This is all a part of it. It's a part of the journey."

Tracy Clayton: Okay, Josh, in the words of our patron saint Tyra Banks, I have a question for you. I think I know the answer, but did you...

CLIP: Learn something from this?

Josh Gwynn: I did.

Tracy Clayton: What'd you learn?

Josh Gwynn: I'm not trying to put 20 on 10. I'm really not. But I really do think that this was one of the most formative things that I've done in a really long time.

Tracy Clayton: Really?

Josh Gwynn: I put myself out there in a way that I never thought I would, but always have wanted to. I feel like I learned that you don't have to be good at something at the beginning. Everything is a process and it's all a journey, and we should really just be doing what we want and things that feel good. You know what I mean?

Tracy Clayton: Yeah.

Josh Gwynn: And music, making music feels good. And so, even if it's for me and I listen to it by myself in my room, I'm going to keep doing it.

Tracy Clayton: Aww. You're making me want to write a song. Can we make a song together one day?

Josh Gwynn: Yes! Please!

Tracy Clayton: Yay. I'm serious. Yay. I think that's great, and I am so proud of you. If I can get mushy for a second or two. I know. I'm sorry. I didn't bring any tissues for everybody. But I am proud of you all the time, but something like this really stands out to me on the list of things that I am proud of you for, because I know how in your head you can get a lot, and you've got your producer brain and the slight perfectionist streak that you've got going on. So something like this, really baring your soul, because that's what you do when you sing in front of somebody. That's not something that, I don't think I can do. I feel like I would've felt exactly like you, and I might have turned around and walked home and been like, "Ah, you know what, y'all? Let's just have a regular conversation for this episode." But you were able to do that, and I just love seeing you grow, and I just mean...

Josh Gwynn: I appreciate it!

Tracy Clayton: I'm just really impressed with you.

Josh Gwynn: That means so much from you.

Tracy Clayton: I also want to personally say thank you for holding down the fort and allowing me to go get myself and my head together. It means...

Josh Gwynn: Of course.

Tracy Clayton: So, so much, and I care for you so, so deeply...

Josh Gwynn: I care for you, too.

Tracy Clayton: And it's one of the greatest gifts that anybody's given me.

Josh Gwynn: And I'm so proud that you did it. I'm so proud that you did it.

Tracy Clayton: I'm proud of the both of us.

Josh Gwynn: It's us season.

Tracy Clayton: Us season!

Josh Gwynn: And we will see you next season.

Tracy Clayton: Bye!

Josh Gwynn: Bye!

ENDING CREDITS: Back Issue is a production of Pineapple Street Studios. I'm the host and senior producer, Josh Gwynn. Back Issue was created by myself and Tracy Clayton. Our producers are Janelle Anderson, Xandra Ellin and Ari Saperstein. Our editors are Leila Day and Emmanuel Hapsis. Our managing producer is Bria Mariette. Our executive producer is Leila Day, Gracie Award winner, and our intern is Noah Camuso.

Today's episode was produced by myself and Raj Makhija and edited by Leila Day, Gracie Award winner. Our sound engineers includes Sharon Bardales, Davy Sumner, Jason Richards, Jade Brooks, Marina Paiz, Pedro Alvira, and Raj Makhija. Art designed by Cadence13, and original music by Don Will, Raj Makhija, Rich Mallory, Claire Taubenhaus, and me! Executive producers for Pineapple Street Studios are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky.

I'm on Twitter and Instagram @RegardingJosh. You can follow the show on Instagram @BackIssuePodcast, and you can use the hashtag #BackIssuePodcast on Twitter if you're brave enough to open that website up. You can subscribe to this podcast wherever free podcasts are sold. Please leave a review, especially if you're going to leave five stars. It really does help. Tell your friend, tell your enemies, tell everyone that you know. write a song about it. I'll see you next season. Bye.