BACK ISSUE
Face Crack! I Thought You Were Black!
This week, Josh and Tracy revisit musical white folks who somehow scored an invitation to the cookout. Elvis, Bobby Caldwell, Teena Marie, Kenny Loggins, Joss Stone, Amy Winehouse, and Justin Timberlake have all made careers in music steeped in the sounds of blackness. Is there a proper way for a white artist to exist in a genre that Black artists originated, perfected, and sometimes weren’t allowed to escape? Is it problematic to call this trend “blue-eyed soul”? Writer, host, and podcaster Ashley C. Ford joins us to tackle these questions, explore blue-eyed soul's cousin: yacht rock, and share a Michael McDonald impression that will make you laugh loud enough for your neighbor to hear.
Additional Material By: VLADTV, Warner Bros., Loud Speakers Network, Urban One, TK Records/Clouds, Arista Records, Yab Yum/550 Music, John Van Druten, RCA, BMG, Stone Dwarf, Apple, Philles Records, Don Cornelius Productions, Motown Records, Columbia Records, Sony Music, Capitol Records, Death Row Records/Interscope Records, A&M Records, First Priority Music/Atlantic Records, Kedar Records / Universal Records, Roc-A-Fella / Def Jam, South Coast Music Group / Interscope Records, and K. Michelle. Production Music courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION
[0:00]
[CLIP] Voice: Beyoncé ? You look like Luther Vandross.
[CLIP] Voice: Hoe, but make it fashion.
[CLIP] Voice: But you ain't heard that from me.
[CLIP] Voice: Fierce.
[CLIP] Voice: [Singing] Call him.'
[CLIP] Voice: Can't stop.
[CLIP] Voice: [Soft voices rising in background] You see, when you do clownery,
[CLIP] Voice: 'Cause we won't stop.
[CLIP] Voice: --the clown comes back to bite.
[CLIP] Voice: --Can't get no sleep cause ya'll--
[CLIP] Voice: --It's Britney, bitch.
[CLIP] Voice: Y'all not gonna get no sleep cause of me.
[CLIP] Voice: [Voices overlapping] We were rooting for you, Tiffany, we were all rooting for you... [Overlapping voices build into crescendo]
[CLIP] Single voice: [Indistinct 00:27] Walls?
[CLIP] Single voice: Who said that?
[0:30]
Josh: Welcome Back Issue, a weekly podcast that revisits formative people,
Tracy: songs,
Josh: shows,
Tracy: beautiful gowns
Josh: and other moments in pop culture that we still think about.
Tracy: Each week we're going to go back to the past and revisit unforgettable moments that we all think we remember. And we're going to learn what they can teach us about where we are collectively today as a people right now at this moment.
Josh: This week: what the hell is Blue-Eyed Soul?
Tracy: A damnation is what it is.
Josh: [Laughs]
[CLIP] You can't discredit a White artist for being dope.
[CLIP] Why is it Genius when they do it? Listen to Kenny Lattimore’s latest record and it’s like “wow that’s dope!” but if it was a white cat who came out with that record he’d be at the Grammys.
[CLIP] They want R and B, but they don't want it from us.
[CLIP] Justin Timberlake/ The’res plenty of black dudes that dance better than singi better than him. Why they’re not at the same pay scale or level: Because it's easier to sell whiteness in white America.
Tracy: I'm Tracy Clayton.
Josh: And I'm Josh Gwynn.
Josh: So, Tracy, this week I really want to get into, like, what Blue Eyed Soul is.
Tracy: I have no objections because I have some questions and quandaries myself.
Josh: You know, I think we should bring on?
Tracy: Whomst?
Josh: Ashley C. Ford.
Tracy: She's perfect for this.
Josh: She is a yacht rock expert. Yacht rock and blue eyed soul are kind of like cousins, I think? I'm not sure, we should ask her.
Tracy: If anybody has a family tree of Yacht Rock, it's Ashley Ford. But before we get into that, I have a question for you.
Josh: What's up?
Tracy: So you know who Bobby Caldwell is, right?
Josh: For our listeners who may not know, he sang that song. What You Won't Do For Love?
Tracy: [Music Plays, Tracy Sings] What you want to do for Love
Josh: This My part. You tried everythaaaang.
Tracy: [Laughs] Rght! So, that's who Bobby Caldwell is. And on that note,
Josh: He says thaaaang.
Tracy: He does say thang, and that's why when everybody found out he was white, they was like: what just happened to my world? Do you remember where you were when you found out that Bobby Caldwell was not an old black man from, like Mississippi or something?
Josh: I do. I was on the hellscape that is Twitter dot com.
Tracy: Bad idea.
Josh: And I saw this white man and it said Bobby Caldwell above him.
Tracy: [Laughs]
Josh: And I was like,
Tracy: What a weird catfish.
Josh: Yeah, like, that's weird. Like, why would this white man pretend to be Bobby Caldwell, who has the song that we play at every fucking cookout that's ever existed? Not only that, but why does this white man have a ponytail like, he clearly can't be Bobby Caldwell.
Tracy: [Laughs]
Josh: And then I saw a live performance and he is singing down in his little suit.
Tracy: Uh-huh.
Josh: And I felt like everything that I had ever learned was a lie.
Tracy: I don't think people understand the importance of this fact. And so I tweeted: 'Did y'all know Bobby Caldwell was white?' And he saw that tweet.
Josh: Bobby saw it?
Tracy: Yeah, he was like: 'I am?'
Josh: Oh, so he's in on the joke, too?
Tracy: You know, Tom Hanks is black. So, I mean, who knows?
[Music Plays]
Tracy: So you know that thing that happens when you hear somebody’s voice and your brain paints this picture of what they look like and then you see them and you realize that they’re not the race that you thought that they were gonna be?
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: Isn’t it weird?
Josh: It’s so weird! And of course I know that that’s like really problematic and it’s like probably something I shouldn’t be doing
Tracy: Yes, you should not do that.
Josh: You can’t tell someone’s race based on what they sound like.
Tracy: Mmhm.
Josh: We know that, but still we all do it. It happens.
Tracy: Yeah, so we went to Back Issue Labs…
Josh: We have a laboratory!
Tracy: Heyyyy, i just found that out! Woo!
Josh: Back Issue Laboratory.
Tracy: Perdone me, we have a laboratory. It’s so classy and also scientific. So we went to this laboratory and we completed a non scientific scientific study to figure out if people could guess someone’s race by hearing their singing voice.
Josh: We know that these internet streets can be hot sometimes, so we allowed the participants to disguise their voice in order to get to the truth.
Both: What is the truth?? [Laugh]
Tracy: We harmonized. It was lovely.
[Music Ends]
[4:42]
Tracy: You’ve been brought here today to participate in nonscientific scientific study.
Josh: Your voice will be modified to protect your identity so that you feel comfortable to answer honestly and fully.
Tracy Do you agree to participate?
Voice Modified Speaker 1: I agree.
Voice Modified Speaker 2: I agree to participate.
Voice Modified Speaker 3: I agree and consent to participate.
Josh: We, at Back Issue Laboratory, are doing a study on the sonics of soul music and the people who perform it.
Tracy::We want to know if you can tell that someone is white or black by the sound of their singing voice.
Josh: Are you ready?
Voice Modified Speaker 1: I'm ready.
Voice Modified Speaker 3: I'm ready.
Voice Modified Speaker 2: [Sighs] I'm ready. Already, I'm sweating, I'm unofficially sweating.
Tracy: Here is your first round of testing. DJ, hit it.
[All Around the world by Lisa Stansfield Plays]
Voice Modified Speaker 3: Hmmm.. I've heard this song before.
[Song Continues]
Voice Modified Speaker 3: That flourish was a little weak, but I think it's a Black Woman.
Voice Modified Speaker 2: Okay. I think that's a Black woman? Those harmonies just sounded like really tight? I don't know, I think it's a Black woman.
Josh: That is, in fact, a white woman called Lisa Stansfield.
Voice Modified Speaker 3: Oh, wow.
Voice Modified Speaker 2: I'm going to walk into traffic. What on earth? What does this mean?You better really disguise my voice.
Tracy: Ready for round two? DJ, Run it back.
[Someone to Love by Jon B. Plays]
Voice Modified Speaker 3: Okay, If this is not a black person singing this song was definitely produced by a black person. You can not deny those, like, gospel overtures. I'm gonna ahead and say the singer was Black. Fuck, man.
Voice Modified Speaker 1: Is that Jon B, is that my baby? [Laughs] Oh he's a white man.
Voice Modified Speaker 2: That's sounded like Toni Braxton. Was that Toni Braxton?
Josh: Girl, no.
Voice Modified Speaker 2: That's not Toni Braxton? Who is it?
Tracy: That is actually a white gentleman by the name of Jon B.
Voice Modified Speaker 2: [Laughs] There is no- Are you serious? Oh, my God. Wait. That's not a boy. No, it's not. Play that again.
Someone to Love by Jon B. Plays]
Voice Modified Speaker 2: Oh, my God. Here's what's crazy, though, like it's like sort of like the dress, where that now that you've identified that it's a White boy, like now I hear it. It's psycho...okay. Ripping me up.
Josh: And now, our second to last round of testing.
[Audra McDonald singing Maybe This Time from Cabaret plays]
Voice Modified Speaker 3: The song sounds really old fashioned. Is this Liza Minnelli?
Voice Modified Speaker 2: Oh, my God. OK. That sounded like a white woman to me. The thinness of the voice sounded like a white woman. Is there any chance in hell that I'm right? [Cough]
Voice Modified Speaker 1: I feel like that has to be a Black woman because I don't know, because there's something about, like, the deepness of it? OK, like, you know how Beyonce we also know how to drop it in octave and sound a bit masculine when she wants to? I don't believe white women know how to do that as well as us. So I'ma, I'ma say Black woman. Yup, I'ma go with that.
Tracy: That is Audra McDonald, noted Black woman, in fact.
Voice Modified Speaker 1: Oh. Okay.
Voice Modified Speaker 2: Oh, my God. I'm so mad.
Voice Modified Speaker 3: Damn it. Oh, that's a really hard one.
Voice Modified Speaker 2: I'm gooped and gagged.
Josh: And here is our last test. Don't fuck it up.
Tracy: No pressure.
[How Come by Ray Lamontagne plays]
Voice Modified Speaker 2: Okay, I mostly was trying to identify if I thought it was a man or woman. I feel for some reason, that it's a white man. But at this point, I'm so shook. I just feel like it has that kind of, like, syrupy like, white country rock twang to it. I don't know if that's accurate, but that's sort of what it's communicating to me, a mere peasant.
Voice Modified Speaker 3: The person as a Tracy Chapman-style voice, was where it's like, I can't really tell the gender of it. I'm gonna go ahead and say that that was a Black woman.
Voice Modified Speaker 1: Oh it's a white man. I don't remember his name or his face or whatever, but that's a white man, because he's on like the soundtrack for every other, like, white rom com that I love. [Laughs] I'm just saying. Is he white?
Tracy: In fact, that is Ray Lamont-- La Mont---
Josh: LaMontagne
Tracy: LaMont- LaMontaney
Josh: LaMontagne.
Tracy: Lagamonty. Lamontagine.
Josh: The man’s name is Ray LaMontagne.
Tracy: LaMonta- LaMontgney.
Josh He’s white.
Voice Modified Speaker 1: Ayye.
Voice Modified Speaker 3: Shit.
Voice Modified Speaker 2: Oh, thank- literally, thank God. Literally God is in this room, thank you for that. [Laughter]
Tracy: So we just have a couple of follow-up questions now that the study is complete. What are you listening for while making decisions on whether these fingers were Black or white.
Voice Modified Speaker 1: I want to say, like, the verbiage that was used, and the pronunciation, because even when you sing it or rap it, or whatever, actually like different cultures, black and white, do tend to pronounce things a little differently or like annunciate and put like a special emphasis on a part of the word? So I think that's what I was really looking for.
Voice Modified Speaker 2: What I thought would help me differentiate between black vocals and white vocals was I guess like there is like a thinness to white vocals and like a depth to like black vocals, like, in my head.
Voice Modified Speaker 3: I found myself listening for, like, the strength of the vocals and coding that black. It's kind of weird that a song could sound so of a tradition and get the person who represents it and who gets credit for it on all the billboard charts and stuff is, like, a white person.
Josh: OK, That’s all we got for you today. Make sure you signed your release. Don’t steal anything on the way out. This recording will self-destruct to protect your identities in three...
Tracy: Self-destruct?!
Josh: Two…
Tracy: Oh shit, I gotta go!
Josh: One.
Tracy: Bye!
Josh: Get out!
[Explosion sound effect]
Josh: To Freedom!
[10:53]
[Music Starts]
Josh: There's this long history of white artists entering black genres. Like, I remember when I first moved to New York. I went and saw this movie called 20 Feet from Stardom.
Tracy: Mmmm.
Josh: And it was about how all of these white artists use Black background singers to capture a Black sound.
Tracy: Every single Christmas, I get so annoyed when whoever the new boring white singer of the moment is, James Blunt or whoever,
Josh: [Laughs]
Tracy: Brings out the fuckin gospel choir.
Josh: Mmmm.
Tracy: Every time, Madonna loves a gospel choir, I'm just gonna say it.
Josh: Mhmmm.
Tracy: I'm just like, what are their names, you know? Can I know who they are?
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: They're not your shadows. I feel like I'm [Laughs] I feel like this has turned into spoken word.
Josh: [Laughs]
[Drum sounds begin]
Tracy: They are not your shadows, though they are black, and behind you, they are people with voices just like you. Freedom.
Josh: [snaps]
[Both laugh]
Josh: But there's been a long history of white artists entering Black genres, that they were like locked into-
Tracy: Mhmm.
Josh: --and weren't really given the freedom to experiment themselves out of?
Tracy: Also, a history of Black people welcoming certain artists into their ranks, while keeping other ones out. Like, mmmm, nah, not this one. You got to go.
Josh: Yeah, we're gonna definitely get into that today.
Tracy: Mhmmm.
Josh: But first, maybe we should do it like a little quick timeline of where the phrase Blue-Eyed soul came from and what it's come to mean.
Tracy: Yeah, because I don't know, like who the first person to say Blue Eyed Soul was.
Josh: I'm glad you asked.
Tracy: [Laughs]
Josh: Let's do it.
[Music Starts]
Josh: Picture it, 1960s. You got... I don't know what happens in the 60s.
Tracy: Oppression.
[Record Scratch, Music Cuts Out]
[Both Laughing]
Josh: Too relevant. That was too close
[Music Begins again]
Tracy: Too soon. It's still going on.
Josh: I got sad. Uh...
Tracy: I know, me too.
Josh: OK. All right. All right. So it's the 60s, right?
Tracy: Yes.
Josh: And you have a black radio deejay named Georgie Woods who's credited with coining the phrase Blue-Eyed Soul. And he was using it to describe a specific band called The Righteous Brothers.
[Righteous Brothers Track Plays, Tracy Sings over it]
Josh: Okay Vocals!
Tracy: I don't know why I turned into the lead singer Creed, but sometimes you got to go where the spirit...
Josh: Where it takes you.
Tracy: I like The Righteous Brothers.
Josh: Yeah, but he was using it as a way to describe white artists who were getting played on primarily black and RandB stations.
Tracy: Mmmm.
Josh: And then, by the 70s, it's on and poppin now. [Tracy laughs] Like there's white artists entering all these different black spaces.
Tracy: Uh huh.
Josh: In 1972, you got Dennis Coffey. He was the first white artist to ever play Soul Train.
[Clip] Don Cornelius: Dennis Coffey, the detroit guitar band and Scorpio... [Scorpio by Dennis Coffey plays]
Tracy: Huh, I never, ever sat and considered who the White was to integrate Soul Train. Happy White History Month, everybody.
Josh: One thing that's interesting, if you watch the video of the Soul Train performance: Dennis Coffey is absent. It's an instrumental. So there are no vocals.
Tracy: Uh-huh.
Josh: All you see are the Soul Train dancers. So they're all getting it. You don't see a white face attributed to the music.
Tracy: So then, did he actually appear on Soul Train? Did nobody see you?
Josh: Don Cornelius says his name.
Tracy: Mmm.
Josh: And his song plays while they dance.
Tracy: Hmmm. We'll leave that up to you listeners.
Josh: [Laughs] Elton John would go on to do Soul Train in 1975. Three years later.
Tracy: Ah, that makes sense. Black folk love them some Elton John
Josh: Next in the Blue Eyed Soul timeline in my head, transitioning out of Soul train, you got Bobby Caldwell and What You Won't Do for Love in 1978.
Tracy: Who's always gonna tell you what you not gonna do? Black people. [Both laugh] The sign's right there.
Josh: We were set up. We were set up not to know. And again, his face is absent from his album art.
Tracy: Oh, slick.!
Josh: Right.
Tracy: Aha.
Josh: It feels as though they're trying to take that choice away from Black consumers, right? Like, they don't want them to have to mentally deal with, like, the fact that there's a white artist entering this Black space. They just want you to listen to the words--
Tracy: Mmm.
Josh: --listen to the song, and bump it if it's good, I guess?
Tracy: Right. Do it slap? If it do, go head.
Josh:There were a lot of other musical forces that were happening at the end of the 70s, and the early 80s, right? You have the rise of smooth jazz, you start to see shifts in R and B...
Tracy: Yesss.
Josh: And then you have like this thing called Yacht Rock that was blowing up. Hall and Oates.
Tracy: Which I have never understood. Also, can I can I just say everybody that I know loves them some Hall and Oates. And I've heard several black people put them in the same category. Like, 'I thought that they were Black, too.'
Josh: Mhmm.
Tracy: I just want to officially say, no, they don't sound Black. They just sound like white boys with rhythm. If this were a nonscientific scientific experiment and you played Hall and Oates, even Sara Smile, which I say is their number one bop and banger. [Josh Laughs], I'd be like 'Oh, sound good, but they're white.'
Josh: [Laughs] Noted.
Tracy: I'm just saying. That's all I'm saying that's it. I also I don't know if this is a safe enough space for this part, but,
Josh: Of course it's a safe enough space.
Tracy: I'm actually nervous to say this. I might feel the same way about Teena Marie.
[ “Square Biz” by Teena Marie Plays ]
Tracy: She just sound like a white girl with seasoning. And that's fine.
Josh: Come on white girl with seasoning.
Tracy: Some white people got seasonings. That's okay. [Laughs]
Josh: But, at this time. There are a lot of white boys with seasoning that are popping up all over the place. [Tracy Laughs] They come up with this new genre of music that actually didn't get coined until like 2005.
Tracy: Uh huh.
Josh: It has come to be known as Yacht Rock. And you have bands like Steely Dan, you have Michael McDonald, you have Kenny Loggins, and they're all experimenting with all of these different sounds that are super new and fresh and Black, honestly.
Tracy: So I heard the term Yacht Rock before I knew what it was.
Josh: Mm hmm.
Tracy: And I pictured the target audience as like rich old white men who own yachts. And like, they wear like a polo shirt with their sweaters, like, tied around their shoulders and boat shoes. Never any socks, [Josh laughs] not a sock to be found anywhere. And I feel like the kind of music that such people would listen to doesn't match with the way that yacht rock sounds
Josh: Why?
Tracy: The way it sounds sounds too cool for the people on yachts to be into?
Josh: I would counter,
Tracy: Hmmmm.
Josh: What is more upper class, rich white than wanting to sound Black?
Tracy: Wow...that's deep. That's deep. That is deep right there. You just you just blew my mind. It's over.
Josh: I think we should dive a little bit deeper, though.
Tracy: Mkay.
Josh: I have the perfect person to be our lifeguard as we wade out through the waters of Yacht Rock. Ashley C. Ford.
Tracy: Yeeeessss.
Josh: She’s a Yacht Rock expertxt. She’s always talking about Michael McDonald. She’s always talking about Kenny Loggins. She’s a writer, a host, a podcaster. She even had an underwear campaign one time! That’s not really relevant, but it’s a flex.
Tracy: [ laughs ]
Josh: And so we called her to find out about her specific love of the genre, and a super fun game that you will not want to miss.
[AD Break]
[Music Plays]
Tracy: So I don't want to alarm anybody, but I genuinely have no idea what Yacht Rock is. I don't know. I honestly thought it was a bunch of white dudes on yachts rocking out.
Ashley C. Ford: That's close.
Tracy: Really?
Ashley C. Ford: Yeah. You're in the vicinity.
Josh: Before we get to Yacht Rock. What is your definition of Blue Eyed Soul? And then how do we get from Blue Syed soul to Yacht Rock?
Ashley C. Ford: Blue Eyed Soul is part of all these other genres. It's soft rock. It's sometimes considered classical rock. Dad Rock
Tracy: Yeah.
Ashley C. Ford: Blue Eyed soul is particularly white.
Tracy: Mmmm.
Ashley C. Ford: You've got to, like, have access to the blue eyes. In the majority. [Tracy laughs] From Blue-Eyed Soul to Yacht Rock is actually a pretty neat line because blue eyed soul is honestly just Yacht Rock with white men who are better at not sounding like white men. That's pretty much all it is.
Tracy: Wait, wait, wait, wait. So it's yacht rock with white men who are better at sounding less white. Did I say it right?
Ashley C. Ford: Yes.
Tracy: OK.
Ashley C. Ford: This is not technical.
Tracy: Uh-huh.
Ashley C. Ford: But in my heart, that's how that works. Because you got to think about it like the difference between like even like Michael McDonald. Michael McDonald is a yacht rock guy who became a blue eyed soul guy.
Tracy: So that means he progressively sounded less white?
Ashley C. Ford: Yes.
Ashley C. Ford: Think about the, like, the Doobie Brothers, like, taking it to the streets? [Josh and Ashley sing] Taking to the street, taking to the streets. Right? Versus. [Singing] I keep forgetting we're not in love anymore.
[Josh and Tracy Sing]
Tracy: Okay, Okay
Ashley C. Ford: That's what I'm saying. It's the difference between, like, cinnamon toast and a cinnamon roll.
Josh: OK.
Ashley C. Ford: OK? With Yacht Rock. That's cinnamon toast. That's just a piece of white bread with some butter and some sugar and some cinnamon like that's it. But a cinnamon roll requires the cinnamon.
Josh: Mmmmm.
Ashley C. Ford: You gotta have that in there. And it's gooey, and it's particular and it takes longer to make. And it's not just smeared on top. It's baked into it
Josh: It’s integral. It's like part of it.
Ashley C. Ford: Yes. And that's more like Blue Eyed Soul.
Josh: Mmm.
Tracy: That was beautiful. It's so beautiful that I was going to interrupt because I actually do not like cinnamon rolls, but I love cinnamon toast.
[Josh and Ashley laugh]
Tracy: So I was like: I can't relate to this part, can we switch up the metaphor? But I think you stuck the landing. Okay, okay.
Ashley C. Ford: You get what I'm saying.
Tracy: That's it. I Smell what you're cooking
Ashley C. Ford: You smell what I 'm cooking.
Josh: So when did you discover your love for Yacht Rock?
Ashley C. Ford: Oh, man. Seventh grade. I had a really hard time sleeping and there was always a point in the day when I would just crash. And that was usually in the class of my teacher, Mr. Martin, who was like my computer teacher. So we did not get along because I was always falling asleep in his class. And one day he kept me after class and was like: why are you falling asleep in my class? Like, what's going on? And I told him, because I don't sleep.
Tracy: Stay woke
Ashley C. Ford: From an early age, okay? I been on.
[Josh and Tracy laugh]
Ashley C. Ford: But, yeah. He was like: why don't you sleep? And I told him I'm, you know, I have insomnia. And also I had like a big fear of the dark, which came from a lot like a lot of early viewing and no censorship of horror movies in my home. [chuckles] Like I watched Candy Man when I was like seven--
Josh: Nope
Tracy: Noooo
Ashley C. Ford: --Which was a mistake.
Tracy: I've still haven’t seen Candy man, I refuse.
Ashley C. Ford: It was a mistake. I mean, I love the movie, but it was definitely a mistake to watch that at seven. And so I just had a hard time sleeping. And I told him, you know, like, I have a fear of the dark and all this other stuff. And he brought me this tape that he and his wife used with his daughter, who had also had a really hard time sleeping and being afraid of the dark. And it was a tape of lullabies called Return to Pooh Corner by Kenny Loggins.
[Kenny Loggins “Return to Pooh Corner” plays]
Josh: Mmm.
Tracy: Ohhh.
Ashley C. Ford: And I started playing that tape every night to help me sleep. And I liked it. And I asked him if he had any other music by Kenny Loggins. And he had, I think, this greatest hits CD. So, then I started playing his greatest hits. Kenny Loggins. And I just. [Tracy laughs] And then I noticed, you know, there was this particular radio station that sometimes played Kenny Loggins songs. And it was ninety seven point three. The Soft Rock Station. That was what sent me over the edge. I'd be up late at night, you know, with my little insomniac ass, listening to Delilah on the radio and listening to Christopher Cross and James Ingram and Michael McDowell, all of those people. And I just never got over it. And I think as I got older, you know, I also went to a really, really, really black school. And my peers were not necessarily familiar with, like - they wouldn't have known who like Kenny Loggins was or anything like that? Not just because they were black, but also because this was 2002. [All laugh] Uh, but um, but they could get with it like, you know, we all knew Danger Zone.
Josh: Right.
Ashley C. Ford: You know, we all knew, like, the Footloose song, like we had seen that movie on TNT like five million times.
Tracy: Right.
Ashley C. Ford: So there was just like this access point. And it was something that gave me a lot of comfort. And plus I just like listening to it. Like, I don't know what. I-I really enjoy it genuinely.
Josh: I love that you're like asking your teacher for, like, yacht rock mixtapes.
Ashley C. Ford: Oh, yeah.
Tracy: Say man, you got anymore of that uh. That uh, Kenny Loggins
Josh: You got that new hot fire.
Ashley C. Ford: You got, you got any more of that Kenny Loggins stuff. The last one really slapped. What was it? Uh, leap of faith? [All laugh] Yeah, just like. And it just, it expanded. And I don't know what it is about Kenny Loggins in particular. Something about his voice. Something about the music that he's chosen to make over the years. And, you know, I interviewed Kenny Loggins one time. The interview never came out-
Tracy: What?
Ashley C. Ford: Because I couldn't write it. I got too emotional, literally, and, like, couldn't write like. Was having, like, a breakdown. Every time I tried to write it.
Josh: Really?
Ashley C. Ford: Yes. And my editor was like, you know, I really just had you do this interview because I wanted that for you. You don't have to write this.
Josh: Aww.
Tracy: Come through editor.
Ashley C. Ford: Like you don't have to do, and I was like, okay. And it was really, really kind. But in that conversation that I had with Kenny, one of the things I said to him was like, you know, is it weird for you to be talking to somebody who considers themselves like a superfan and have that be, you know, a young black woman in her 20s? [Josh: mm] Because, that's what I was at the time. And he said, 'you know, actually, I've always done well with black people'.
[All laugh]
Ashley C. Ford: And I was like, Oh, so he knows.
Tracy: Right.
Ashley C. Ford: And I was like, damn!
Josh: Yeah.
Ashley C. Ford: Because I didn't know until I got on the Internet.
Josh: Why do you think that black folks like have like this soft spot in their heart for yacht rock?
Ashley C. Ford: Because it's so obviously derivative of soul music. And I think also there is something about yacht rock. And this is, you know, and it's meant to be this way. It's supposed to give you like this weird free, almost nautical feel like you're just like out on the sea.
Tracy: Is that where the yacht in Yacht Rock comes from?
Ashley C. Ford: I don't think so. I've always thought it was because of the Christopher Cross song Sailing.
Tracy: That would make sense.
Ashley C. Ford: Which was a huge breakthrough onto the other side of like the idea of yacht rock and like what yacht rock sounds like. Like sailing. It is a perfect yacht rock song.
Tracy: That is a song I'm not familiar with. Would you be open to humming a few bars.
Ashley C. Ford: Yeah, so it's like: [Sings] 'well, it's not too far to paradise, or at least it's not for me. And if the wind is right, you can sail away and find tranquility.' Yeah, I think that's it. You know who did a cover of it? Avant.
Josh: Really?
Tracy: Really?!
Ashley C. Ford: Avant did a cover of it. I'm not kidding.
Tracy: What?
Ashley C. Ford: [Avant cover of Sailing plays]
Tracy: Wow.
Ashley C. Ford: I'm not kidding. This happens a lot, that R and B singers do covers of Yacht rock songs because they're so transferable because of that soul piece and because of like they're on the spectrum of soul.
Josh: One of my favorite things is like when yacht rock gets sampled into hip hop, like.
Ashley C. Ford: Yes.
Josh: Like, I love Warren G's Regulate.
Ashley C. Ford: Yes.
[Tracy does the baseline of Regulate from Nate Dogg and Warren G, the actual baseline comes under]
Ashley C. Ford: Yes.
Josh: Or like woman to woman becoming like California love.
Ashley C. Ford: Yes.
[Woman to Woman Plays, and turns into California Love]
Tracy: Oh, I didn't know that California Love came from a Yacht Rock Sample.
Josh: There's also like Toto who did Georgie Porgie.
[Georgie Porgie by Toto Plays]
Josh: And then MC Lyte sampled it.
[Poor Georgie MC Lyte Song Plays]
Josh: And then Faith Evans and Eric Benet have a version of it, that just makes me think of 106 and Park and like, BET in that era. [Faith Evans and Eric Benet cover of Georgie Peorgie plays, all sing]
Ashley C. Ford: Yes.
Josh: It's just a moment.
Ashley C. Ford: You know what? One of my favorite yacht rock remakes of a song, there was uh, an album that was made in like the 90's, I think, that was like a compilation album of like [laughs] of like singers redoing songs from West Side Story and Michael McDonald, James Ingram, and I think the lead singer of the band Ambrosia [Josh and Tracy laugh] did the song, Maria.
[Maria cover by David Pack, James Ingram, and Michael McDonald plays]
Josh: The fact that they did s- a weird yacht rock remake of Maria, is one of the most gorgeous things I've ever experienced.
Josh: I know at the beginning of quarantine, when outside closed, my mind immediately went to the music video for Michael McDonald and Patti LaBelle singing on my own.
Ashley C. Ford: Yes.
Tracy: [Singing] I'm on my own... this wasn't how it's supposed to be.
Ashley C. Ford: Yes. [Singing] Loosing you it cuts like a knife.
Josh: Come on Michael McDonald.
Ashley C. Ford: And that was my shit.
Tracy: Oh, my gosh.
Josh: So picking up off of your amazing Michael McDonald impression, [Ashley Laughs] I wanted to know if you wanted to play a game.
Ashley C. Ford: Yeah, I'll play a game.
Josh: We're calling it the Wheel of Musical Reparations. [Tracy Laughs]
Ashley C. Ford: [Laughs] Yes.
Josh; I want to hear Michael McDonald do some of our favorite black classics.
Tracy: Blassics.
Ashley C. Ford: This is gonna be hard. The thing about Michael McDonald singing is that you have to sing and yawn at the same time. [Josh Laughs]
Tracy: Are you ready? You got Michael McDonald all channeled and ready to go?
Ashley C. Ford: Yeah, I'm ready.
Tracy: All right.
Josh: [Music plays] Tyrone by Erykah Badu.
Tracy: Oh shit, oh shit.
Ashley C. Ford: Okay Oh My God.
Tracy: I'm so excited.
Ashley C. Ford: This is going to be so unfortunate and disrespectful. Let's go. All right.
[Ashley Singing Tyrone by Erykah Badu as Michael Mcdonald] All right, I'm getting tired of your shit.
Josh: AH!
Ashley C. Ford: [singing] You don't never buy me nothing.
Josh: Oh My God.
[Josh and Tracy laugh hysterically.]
Ashley C. Ford: See, every time you come around, you gotta bring Jim. You gotta bring Jim, James, Paul, and Tyrone.
Josh: Oh my God.
Tracy: Come on Michael, Come through.
Josh: It sounds so good.
Tracy: Wow Wow.
Josh: That was impressive.
Ashley C. Ford: Oh MY God [laughing]. The ancestors are never going to let me into heaven.
Tracy: Never, ever. Then you gon' get to white people heaven, and they gon' be like 'We remember what you did to Michael Mcdonald.
Ashley C. Ford: I ain't forgot about what you did to Tyrone. I remember when you was.. [Laughing, all laugh]
Tracy: Oh man. Okay. Shall we do another?
Josh: All right. Let's do the second one. Let's do the second one, Let's do the second one.
Ashley C. Ford: Okay.
Josh: All right.
Tracy: Oh, Lord.
Ashley C. Ford: Oh my God.
Josh: [Music Choice Theme plays]. Monster by Nicki Minaj, the Nicki Minaj verse in Monster.
Ashley C. Ford: Nooo. [all laugh] No,
Tracy: Surely Michael McDonald is too pure to know any Nicki Minaj songs.
Ashley C. Ford: Okay, okay, hold on. Okay, I'm ready. Okay.
[Rapping Monster by Nicki Minaj as Michael McDonald] Okay, first things first Ima eat your brains, Then I'mma start rocking gold teeth and fangs, 'Cause that's what a motherfucking monster do Hairdresser from Milan, that's the monster do, Monster Giuseppe heel that's the monster shoe, Young Money is the roster and a monster crew
[All laugh]
And I'm all up... I can't do it. I can't do it
Josh: Oh, my God. Oh, my God.
Ashley C. Ford: Oh my God.
Josh: Wait, we have to do one more. One more.
Ashley: Okay.
[Music plays]
Josh: Bop, DaBaby. Ayyy.
Tracy: We understand that you are a big fan of DaBaby
Ashley C. Ford: I'm a huge, huge fan of DaBaby. OK. All right. Oh, DaBaby. Forgive me.
[Singing Bop by DaBaby as Michael McDonald] I needed some shit with some bop in it (let's go)
I flew past the whip with that blunt in my mouth
Watch the swervin', that whip had a cop in it (woo)
My bitch got good pussy, fly her 'cross the country
I finish the show and I hop in it
I got me a milli', I did it legit-ly
I'm still with the shits, I'm a hot nigga (hot)
Ashley C. Ford: OK.
Tracy: [laughing] Oh, my God.
Ashley C. Ford: OK.
[Continues singing]
Oh my God. Oh my God.
I don't know if I'll ever be. Oh no. I'm never gonna make the ruling. Could you ever be the same?
Tracy: Michael McDonald say I'm a hot Nigga. [all laugh] I didn't know how much I needed it. Ashley, you are a weird lil' something, and I am so glad that you are.
Ashley C. Ford; [Laughs]
[34:17]
[Learn Something from this Bounce Remix Plays]
Tracy: So, Joshua Louise, [Josh laughs]. We have now come to that part of the party where we try to make Tyra Banks proud and learn something from this. Did we [Clip: Tyra Banks saying Learn something from this]?
Josh: I think I did learn something from this. One, I've never seen Ashley Ford and Michael McDonald in the same room at the same time. I feel like that's important to note.
Tracy: I've been trying to tell y'all she's a old white dude. You just won't listen to me. I'm like, trust me. I know.
Josh: Yeah. What about you? Did you learn anything?
Tracy: I did. I learned that blue eyed soul is a marketing term. And I just assumed that it was a colloquialism that a very creative Black person made up in a juke joint. Is that where people party?
Josh: Yeah. Come on. Shug Avery.
Tracy: You know? [Singing] Blue eyed soul, at the juke joint. [Stops Singing[ But I think it's interesting. And I think that when you commercialize it like that. Like what if we had kinky haired country, huh?
Josh: You know what? Yes.
Tracy: Can we do that?
Josh: I love it.
Tracy: Is it the same thing. Does it go the same way?
Josh: one of my really good friends. His name is Rod. He has this test that I call Rod's Theory of energy exertion.
Tracy: Oh, my gosh.
Josh: It sounds like real scientifical, right?
Tracy: It sounds like something that everybody needs immediately.
Josh: OK. So Rod's theory of energy exertion is two questions when we're talking about how to feel about something. And the test goes like this. Are you ready? I'm ready. The first question you should ask yourself: is it good?
Tracy: Mmmm. And if the answer is yes?
Josh: Then we can have a conversation about whether it's problematic.
Tracy: And if the answer is no.
Josh: Why am I wasting my energy?
Tracy: I feel like that alone can add years to the average person's lifespan.
Josh: Exactly. And so within a lot of genres that have been historically occupied by Black people, this has kind of been an unspoken rule anyway. Black audiences are able to sniff out whether something is good and authentic. There are times where people sneak up and like everybody has to listen to Vanilla Ice for six months or something. But most of the time, I think we are able to like look at someone and look at their art and listen to it and be like, you know, like they spent time studying that.
Or they can really sing like or they can really dance.
Tracy: Yeah. Sometimes you come across a white person that makes a bomb. Potato salad, usually in the south, not in New York City. Let me tell you what.
Josh: But, what I'm left with is the question as to whether other genres undergo that test, like whether Black artists are given the same sort of fluidity, like what you were saying in terms of like kinky country. Right.
Tracy: Mhmmm, exactly. Look what happened with Little Nas X.
Josh: Exactly.
Tracy: He did country and white people lost they shit as if we did not invent country.
Josh: Right.
Tracy: Like, it was just ridiculous. And I haven't heard yet. But I am going to listen to K. Michelle's country album unironically with open ears because I bet it's good. I bet it's good. I wonder what kind of pushback she's gotten.
Josh: She went to school on a yodeling scholarship, I think.
Tracy: I'm sorry. What?
Josh: Yeah, like there's a video of her online and she's yodeling all over the place and sounds amazing.
[Clip of K Michelle Yodeling]
Tracy: Wow, a yodeling scholarship though? They give scholarships for yo-is there like a yodelers association that she was in? Is it like a yodeling sorority? Do they have a step team? Did they…
Josh: Shut Up Tracy.
Tracy: [Laughs]
Josh: And so I guess what I'm left with is if it's OK for white artists to dibble and dabble and experiment, it should be okay for Black artists too.
Tracy: Hard agree. It should be. Probably won't be for a while because racism. Which is so sad.
Josh: Right.
Tracy: But this is one of many reasons why Beyoncé is so important. [Josh:ugh] The image of her in like traditional. Oh, I can't say this word rr-r-r - rural. the opposite of urban. How you say that?
Josh: Rural.
Tracy: Well, how come you can do it? Ima get it one day. I'm not gonna get it. Anyway, but like the image of like a black woman in all of these traditionally country, like white country settings. [Josh: Mmm] It's such a disruption because as it stands. Like whenever you see like these like little quizzes and stuff. Right. I'm about to say no names.
Josh: Shut up Tracy.
Tracy: I'm not bout to name no websites. But you see these quizzes and it's just like: how southern are you?
Josh: Right.
Tracy: And I'm just like, I guarantee you that my southern markers are not in this quiz. And guess what? They never were.
Josh: Yeah.
Tracy: So we're already erased anyway. And then here come beyonce on a horse. Cowboy boots, cowboy hats, singing about your Second Amendment and rifles in sitting in weeping willow trees and chewing chaw and shucking and corn and.
Josh: Yeah. And that song was written by a black woman too, Diana Gordon, formerly known as Wynter Gordon.
Tracy: Exactly. And so even if there was no song to go along with that visual, [Josh: mhmm] it's already just hardstand. Like we been her. We built the palace, actually, and we ought to be able to be here too.
Tracy: It's so messed up. See if y'all relax a little bit, we could come full force into all ya'll's lil mosh pits or whatever. Put some seasoning on it, turn it out. everybody will have a better time.
Josh: I agree.
Tracy: But no, y'all gotta be mad at lil nas x. He sang a country song. Exactly.
Josh: It's crazy that it feels like a disruption because historically it's not a disruption. It's a reclamation, right?
Tracy: Mhmmm. yes. There you go.
Josh: But socially, it feels like a disruption. And that's because of the lack of flexibility that we have when we're artists and we're experimenting out of genres that people expect us to.
Tracy: And since white people have controlled everything for so long. Like, we're more forgiving and accepting of music and like genres that are like outside of our cultural creation.
Josh: Mhmmm.
Tracy: Right. Because we know that, like. All right, here's a new music channel. If I want to watch it and be entertained, I guess I got to learn how I like Guns and Roses [Josh laughs] and so we do, you know
Josh: Right.
[40:43]
[Music Plays]
Tracy: Back Issue is a production of Pineapple Street Studios.
Josh: This show was created and is hosted by Tracy Clayton.
Tracy: And Josh Gwynn. [Josh laughs] Our lead producers, [Tracy chuckles] are Josh Lemar Gwynn and Emmanuel Hapsis.
Josh: Our managing producer is John Asante.
Tracy: Our senior editor is Leila Day.
Tracy: Special thanks to Gabrielle Young.
Josh: Our associate producer is Alexis Moore.
Josh: Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky.
Tracy: This show features music by the one only Don Will. You can follow him on all the socials @djdonwill. You can follow me on the socials @brokeymcpoverty, and send me a dollar while you’re at it.
Josh: And you can follow me @regardingjosh on all the things. Subscribe to this podcast wherever free podcasts are sold. Tell a friend, tell your enemy, rate and leave a review. You know, see you next week.
Tracy: Bye.
Robotic: To Freedom.