BACK ISSUE
Remember How They Tried Mariah Carey and Glitter? (feat. Ira Madison III)
It Should Have Been Bigger, #JusticeforGlitter
This week...CATEGORY IS: opinions you're scared to tell your friends. Josh bravely confesses his love of Mariah Carey’s Glitter and tries to convert Tracy. They travel back to 2001 to figure out what was going through Mariah’s head at the time, why the movie was so universally panned by critics, and how history ended up shaping the film’s reception. Then, Ira Madison III, TV writer and the host of Keep It, joins to weigh in on how he’s made a brand out of having strong unapologetic opinions and what he thinks of other pop stars that have tried to make the leap onto the silver screen.
Additional Material By: MTV (ViacomCBS), Warner Bros., Bravo (NBCUniversal), CBS Television Distribution, Nickelodeon (ViacomCBS), Columbia Records, Atlantic Records/Tommy Boy Records, Virgin Records, GRP/Arista Records, 20th Century Fox/Sony, A&M Records, Alfa Records, Epic Records, CW/Warner Bros.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION
[0:00]
Emmanuel: Hey, everyone. Producer Emmanuel here. This week's episode will involve a lot of vulnerable sharing of trash-adjacent opinions, so it's important that we cultivate a safe space. As Josh mentioned in a previous episode, I'm kind of a witch, and I thought we could do that by diving into a sound bath together to cleanse away all of our judgy-ass vibes. You know you got them. They need to go, but first I need to set the mood. Let me light some of these Erykah Badu vagina-scented candles real quick. There we go.
Emmanuel: Inhale all of that in with me. Hmm. That's a new smell for me. Anyway. Now allow all of these royalty-free sounds to calm that part of you that likes sub-tweeting or pointing and laughing at people. You know, that part of your brain that was really active in middle school. Yeah, that girl. Poof, be gone.
Tracy Clayton: Oooo. I think I actually felt that. I feel kind and lighter.
Emmanuel: Cultivate stillness in this moment. Be Beyonce in the elevator.
Josh Gwynn: I would like the record to show that that was Emmanuel, not me.
Tracy Clayton: That also was not me, Tracy Clayton. That was not me
Emmanuel: Here's a magic spell inspired by our faves from The Craft to take us out. I bind you, Back Issue listener, from bringing hateration into the dancerie.
Josh Gwynn: Bind you by the power of Mary J Blige’s BOOT!
Emmanuel: You know it's true magic if there's an echo. I don't make the rules. [sighs] Okay, now that my spell is cast, it's time to get this episode percolating. Yep, that was another Mary J. shout out because she deserves. I think we can all agree.
Josh Gwynn: Alright - we let you do your little witch moment, Sabrina.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah - we have a show to do.
Emmanuel: Take it away, Josh and Tracy. Happy Autumn Equinox. Happy early Libra season. We're the best. Witchy Woo-Woo Spice signing off. Bye-bye.
[1:56]
[CLIP] Voice: Beyoncé ? You look like Luther Vandross.
[CLIP] Voice: Hoe, but make it fashion.
[CLIP] Voice: But you ain't heard that from me.
[CLIP] Voice: Fierce.
[CLIP] Voice: [Singing] Call him.'
[CLIP] Voice: Can't stop.
[CLIP] Voice: [Soft voices rising in background] You see, when you do clownery,
[CLIP] Voice: 'Cause we won't stop.
[CLIP] Voice: --the clown comes back to bite.
[CLIP] Voice: --Can't get no sleep cause ya'll--
[CLIP] Voice: --It's Britney, bitch.
[CLIP] Voice: Y'all not gonna get no sleep cause of me.
[CLIP] Voice: [Voices overlapping] We were rooting for you, Tiffany, we were all rooting for you... [Overlapping voices build into crescendo]
[CLIP] Single voice: [Indistinct 00:27] Walls?
[CLIP] Single voice: Who said that?
[Theme Music]
Josh Gwynn: Welcome to Back Issue.
Tracy Clayton: A weekly podcast that revisits formative moments in pop culture that we still think about.
Josh Gwynn: This week: opinions you're scared to tell your friends.
Tracy Clayton: Can I confess an opinion right now?
Josh Gwynn: Of course.
Tracy Clayton: Casseroles are good, and they are not just white people food. Period.
Josh Gwynn: Girl you’re on one, let’s…. let's just get into it.
Tracy Clayton: Let's do it then. I'm not scared of you.
[Clip] NeNe: I said what I said.
[Clip] Yung Miami: I don't like that.
[Clip] Real Housewives of Orange County, Tamra: That's my opinion!
[Clip] Mariah Carey: No matter what happens with this movie, it's really helped grow, the whole process of acting, the whole process of doing this particular movie has helped me grow.
[Clip] Sex and the City, Charlotte: I choose my choice. I choose my choice.
Josh Gwynn: Each week, we'll go back into the past and revisit unforgettable moments we all think we remember...
Tracy Clayton: ... and learn what they can teach us about where we are right now. I'm actor and director Tracy Clayton.
Josh Gwynn: And I'm producer and star Josh Gwynn.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, so you the star? Was there a memo?
Josh Gwynn: Eoww.
Tracy Clayton: That's fine.
[Music Ends]
[3:29]
Josh Gwynn: So Tracy.
Tracy Clayton: Mm-hm (affirmative).
Josh Gwynn: Is this the safe space?
Tracy Clayton: I think so, but every time you ask if this is a safe space, I question it.
Josh Gwynn: Why?
Tracy Clayton: I don't know. Because you make me nervous. What are you about to say?
Josh Gwynn: I just want to say without judgment, because I can feel the judgment in your eyes right now... I haven't even said nothing yet.
Tracy Clayton: Okay. My eyes are closed so you can't feel the judgment. You're welcome.
Josh Gwynn: Okay. I got to get this off my chest. I feel like there's a lot of things that I want to get off my chest.
Tracy Clayton: Your spirit does feel really, really heavy. I think we need a confessional episode. Is that what we're talking about?
Josh Gwynn: Yeah. We should have an exorcism of all the pop cultural moments that we want to keep to ourselves that we're afraid to share with our friends. You know what? You know who I think we should talk to about unpopular pop culture opinions?
Tracy Clayton: Meghan McCain?
Josh Gwynn: You know what...
Tracy Clayton: What?
Josh Gwynn: I quit.
Tracy Clayton: Okay, okay, okay, okay. Joe Budden.
Josh Gwynn: No.
Tracy Clayton: Okay. Well, since my ideas are so bad...
Josh Gwynn: They are.
Tracy Clayton: ... who should we talk to?
Josh Gwynn: We should talk to someone we actually like, Tracy.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, well, I didn't know if that was an option. You should have put that in the small print.
Josh Gwynn: We should talk to Ira Madison III. You know he's got really strong opinions.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, I love Ira.
Josh Gwynn: He talks about his strong opinions on the internet all the time.
Tracy Clayton: Okay. Okay. All right. So your idea was better than mine. Fine, but don't try to distract the masses and not tell us what this big, huge exorcism-level opinion is. What is your bad opinion?
[Josh Sighs] ; [Music Starts]
Josh Gwynn: I love the movie Glitter. I just want other people to acknowledge how great of a work it is.
Tracy Clayton: I see. Okay. Well, I hear you. I just...
Josh Gwynn: I feel like you're trying really hard not to be judgemental, but I hear it in your tone.
Tracy Clayton: Like I'm going to get on the phone with my girlfriend after the appointment and be like, "Girl, I had somebody in this office today talking about..."
Josh Gwynn: "This client that I had today was wild."
Tracy Clayton: "Talking about Glitter is a good movie. Can you believe?"
Josh Gwynn: Okay, I'm not saying that it should have been a contender for Oscar Picture of the Year.
Tracy Clayton: That's good that that's not what you're saying.
Josh Gwynn: But it did not deserve to be universally panned. That I stand by.
Tracy Clayton: It really sounds like the whole world says that this movie is terrible. I think maybe I've never heard anybody say anything positive about the movie but you.
Josh Gwynn: I mean, I'm often out there by myself being right.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, okay. I'm sure that's why.
Josh Gwynn: But there are reasons for that. Tell me some of your opinions on Glitter, though.
Tracy Clayton: I mean, it's a movie.
Josh Gwynn: Accurate.
Tracy Clayton: It's not good. It's not a great thing that happened. It's just kind of like a blip on the...
Josh Gwynn: Wait, have you seen it?
Tracy Clayton: No, and I still know it's bad. That's how bad it is.
Josh Gwynn: Okay. You know what? We're correcting this right now.
Tracy Clayton: What?
Josh Gwynn: I'm forcing you to watch this movie. Let's go.
Tracy Clayton: I'm an adult. You can't force me to do nothing.
Josh Gwynn: Okay. Do you want to watch the movie?
Tracy Clayton: Okay. Do I want to? No. Will I? Yes.
Josh Gwynn: Okay.
[Music Ends]
[whoosh sound effects]
[Clip] Two hours later.
[Music Resumes]
Josh Gwynn: What did you think?
Tracy Clayton: I did not die.
Josh Gwynn: That's true.
Tracy Clayton: So my expectation has been proven wrong vis a vis...
Josh Gwynn: Set the bar high.
Tracy Clayton: You know what? I try to set realistic goals for myself. I've been working on it.
Josh Gwynn: Mm-hm (affirmative).
Tracy Clayton: No, but in all seriousness, it honestly was not the doo-doo fire that I was expecting.
Josh Gwynn: Oh my God.
Tracy Clayton: It really, really was not. It was cute. It was very, very cute.
Josh Gwynn: Okay, okay.
Tracy Clayton: It was cute in a way that I wasn't expecting. Mariah's acting was good.
Josh Gwynn: Mm-hm (affirmative).
Tracy Clayton: And just listening to everybody be like, "Oh, the movie is so bad. It's so bad, it's so bad," but I guess I thought the acting was just going to be like me, like it was me in the movie, but it wasn't. It's just like a... It's a movie made in 2001 with very young Mariah Carey with stars in her eyes, and it's cute. I get the appeal. I do get the appeal.
[Music Ends]
Josh Gwynn: It just means so much to me because of where I was at that point. I was probably like 12 or 13.
Tracy Clayton: Aww.
Josh Gwynn: I was at the age where I was asking for CDs for Christmas.
Tracy Clayton: Right.
Josh Gwynn: I watched no television except TRL and music videos. And to have one of your favorite musicians of all time release a movie that was semi-autobiographical, fake about her life [Tracy: Mmm] sent me over the moon.
Tracy Clayton: So I love this picture, this snapshot of your life. I can tell you exactly what I was doing on the other side of the world. This is 2001, right?
Josh Gwynn: Mm-hm (affirmative). Mm-hm (affirmative).
Tracy Clayton: I am a freshman in college. I'm getting radicalized and reading about Black Panthers and listening to all of the Black Star and the Mos Def that I can find, so Glitter was not exactly in the universe that I was constructing for myself.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah, for sure.
Tracy Clayton: So that makes sense.
Josh Gwynn: But what I think is even more important than where you were and where I was when Glitter came out is where Mariah was. Get ready to do yo math.
Tracy Clayton: Here is how you can make a whole movie called Glitter and nobody know it.
[Music Begins]
Josh Gwynn: So first of all, Glitter is kind of like a dramatic re-imagining of Mariah's life. You know, the movie Eight Mile...
Tracy Clayton: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: ... by that musician that I'm not going to say his name?
Tracy Clayton: The one who likes spaghetti a whole lot.
Josh Gwynn: Mm-hm (affirmative). His mama's spaghetti.
Tracy Clayton: Him.
Josh Gwynn: In fact, one of my favorite moments is on Watch What Happens Live on Bravo when Mariah refuses to say his name. Andy Cohen, the host of the show, asks her to say three nice things about... Well, he'll say his name.
[Clip] Watch What Happens Live!
Andy Cohen:
Say three nice things about Eminem.
Mariah Carey:
They come in a package that you can carry wherever you go. Everybody loves them around the world. And they're tasty. Peanut, and you can have the regular kind.
Andy Cohen:
Very good. Oh my God. I love it.
Tracy Clayton: I love it.
Josh Gwynn: I love it, too. It's only certain people that we allow to get to that level of divadom.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: She wasn't always there, and she always tells the story of being a biracial girl that grew up in a very tumultuous... tumultuous... a rough household in Long Island.
[Clip] Mariah Carey singing Outside
Josh Gwynn: And her mom was this white opera singer, and her dad was black and Venezuelan, so people didn't know what to really make of her, you know?
Tracy Clayton: Mm-hmm.
Josh Gwynn: And she has the song that the Lambs, which is her Hive, the Lambily.
Tracy Clayton: Her sweetie babies.
Josh Gwynn: They reference it all the time about this experience of not being able to really fit into either identity called "Outside."
[Clip] Mariah Carey singing Outside
Josh Gwynn: It's from the Butterfly album, and it's one of my favorite Mariah albums of all time.
Tracy Clayton: Aww.
Josh Gwynn: So zoom forward. She goes to high school. They call her Mirage because she's never there. Not everybody knows that.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, wait. I love it.
Josh Gwynn: And this is where Tommy Mottola comes into the picture, right?
Tracy Clayton: Dun dun dun!
Josh Gwynn: Literally that. So this story is told like a hundred-thousand times, but the gist is according to Cosmopolitan in 2019 as a teen, Mariah was waitressing in the city trying to make ends meet, and she put a demo tape together, and she managed to get it in the hands of Sony boss Tommy Mottola, who was like Clive Davis, Quincy Jones. Think of the most important, influential men in the record industry. He's one of them, right?
Tracy Clayton: The king of all the suits.
Josh Gwynn: He had worked with Michael Jackson, Celine Dion. And he looked at Mariah, looked at her music, and took her under his wing. But it got romantic.
Tracy Clayton: Wasn't there an age difference? I mean, you know what..
Josh Gwynn: Like 20 years.
Tracy Clayton: I'm not trying to shade nothing or nobody, but given the power dynamics and the work thing, that's all I'm going to say.
Josh Gwynn: There's a lot of dynamics going on.
Tracy Clayton: Mm-hm.
Josh Gwynn: But they got married, and she released her first album in 1991. But her image wasn't an image that she wanted to portray. She always says that they dressed her up to here and down to here. Again, Tommy Mottola is one of the most powerful men in the music industry, and this fact will come back.
Tracy Clayton: Okay.
Josh Gwynn: But after they got divorced, she came to call the house that they lived in, this huge mansion, she called it Sing Sing, like the prison in New York, because she felt like that's all she was able to do. She wasn't able to be herself. She wanted to put out a lot of records that had hip hop in it, but at the beginning of her career people thought she was white.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah. I- Listen, I thought she was for a really long time.
Josh Gwynn: And the record label really, really profited off of that, and they really wanted to protect that image from crossing over into hip hop. And so she felt like they were clipping her wings, and they felt like they were making their money. And so when they got divorced, she broke free. She escaped their mansion figuratively in the "Honey" video and jumped into the pool.
Tracy Clayton: Oh my God, wait, she did. I remember that mansion.
Josh Gwynn: Right? She ran off the balcony, jumped into the pool, came out like a Bond girl.
Tracy Clayton: Yes!
Josh Gwynn: Everybody was like, "Oh my God." But it also... Remember what she was wearing. She was wearing a bathing suit. It's very different from the imaging that she had during "Vision of Love" when she's wearing a ball gown.
Tracy Clayton: She's like a songstress.
Josh Gwynn: A songstress.
Tracy Clayton: Mm-hm, yeah.
Josh Gwynn: When she left Tommy Mottola, she signed a new $80 million record contract with Virgin Records.
Tracy Clayton: You know what? $80 million is a lot of money.
Josh Gwynn: And Glitter was the first album off this new contract where she was going to and Glitter was the first album off this new contract, where she was going to establish herself on her own without the help of Tommy Mottola.
[Music Ends]
Tracy Clayton:
$80 million worth of pressure And your first act is this movie called Glitter.
Josh Gwynn: Not to mention when it came out. Do you know when Glitter the movie was released?
Tracy Clayton: I just know the year was 2001.
Josh Gwynn: Well, the soundtrack for the movie came out September 11, 2001.
Tracy Clayton: Ah, shit.
Josh Gwynn: See any issues with the rollout?
Tracy Clayton: I could see how there might've been a distraction happening when you're trying to promote a movie and music. That sucks. And doesn't need to be said, but it's not her fault.
Josh Gwynn: It's not her fault at all. There's this iconic picture that floats around the Internet of the movie poster of Glitter on a New York subway stop. And you literally can see the tower smoking behind it.
Tracy Clayton: Damn, Mariah. Damn.
Josh Gwynn: And if you look at the movie sales for that week, for the following time after September 11th, box office sales in general, according to Box Office Mojo [Tracy: Right], went down 30%.
Tracy Clayton: Right. She didn't have a chance. Aw.
Josh Gwynn: At all.
Tracy Clayton: Aw.
Josh Gwynn: She was under a lot of stress at the time. There was that TRL incident where she showed up unexpected.
Tracy Clayton: Wait, what?
[Clip] TRL
Carson Daly:
J-Lo, and that was I'm Real, the remix with-
Mariah Carey:
Lover boy, come on and love me.
Carson Daly:
What the hell is that?
Mariah Carey:
Give me more.
Tracy Clayton: What?
Josh Gwynn: She's got an ice cream cart and she does a striptease on TRL unexpected. Carson Daly is like, "What the hell is going on?"
Tracy Clayton: What?
[Clip] TRL
Carson Daly:
I don't know. What are you doing here, is the question.
Mariah Carey:
I'm here ... Can you hold this?
Carson Daly:
Yeah, sure.
Mariah Carey:
I brought you a present. It's this shirt.
Carson Daly :
What are you doing? Oh my God. What are you doing? Mariah Carey is stripping on TRL right now.
Josh Gwynn: But it brought up all these really messy, unnecessary questions about Mariah's mental health. And the thing about speculating about someone's mental health when they're in the public eye is first of all, you don't know.
Tracy Clayton: Ever.
Josh Gwynn: But also a lot of mental health issues are triggered by stress.
Tracy Clayton: Hello.
Josh Gwynn: Do you think that people speculating about your mental health might be stressful?
Tracy Clayton: I think it may. I think it may be, especially when your image is so tightly controlled in what you can and can't say. You can't just open your mouth and speak. It has to be run past all of your PR team and your handlers and shit. I'm sure that would be kind of stressful.
Josh Gwynn: But that's just to give you a little bit of the context around the film as to why people might have received it or not received it at all. I think it got overshadowed by the drama of Mariah's life, her splitting from Tommy Mottola, critics being like, "Is she going to be able to go on?" Because now she's on her own, people speculating about her mental health, it coming out around 9/11. People also just have this tendency to tear down people who are at the top of their game.
Tracy Clayton: I will say, I would like to, since this is a confessional episode, let me just say a couple of things if I may. I may have been a little harsh when it came to Glitter. There's clearly a lot of context that I did not have, was not privy to, could have Googled but didn't because I didn't understand. You know what I'm saying? That's all that. Also I spent a whole lot of time talking shit about a movie that I've never seen before, which I mean, if we've met, it's not rare. I mean, I talk shit about movies I've never seen all the time, but this has touched me. It really has. It really has touched me because it makes me think about just like who ... Mr. Hamilton, himself, who lives? Who dies? Who tells your story?
Josh Gwynn: Who tells your story?
Tracy Clayton: Don't get us sued. Can we clear that? Legal, can we do it? And somebody told the story of Glitter to be, it's a bad movie. It's a shitty movie that never should've been made. And if you like it, you're dumb for liking it. So I would like to do a little bit of atoning. And since I've said so much shit about this movie, now that I have seen it, can I say some nice things about it? Is that okay?
Josh Gwynn: Let's do it.
[Music Begins]
Tracy Clayton: I think that my favorite thing about the movie is just seeing Mariah Carey at that point in her career. You know what I mean? Because talking about who tells your story, who builds the reputations that these performers have? The idea of the diva and the diva who was just so eccentric and she just has too much money, darling, and she just needs everything her way and she's just putting in so much time and how dare you.
Josh Gwynn: We don't believe in years, darling. We only believe in anniversaries.
Tracy Clayton: Exactly, exactly. Right now today, as we are having this conversation, that's the image of Mariah Carey that is conjured and people say the name Mariah Carey.
Josh Gwynn: I think that's fair though, because I think she plays with it.
Tracy Clayton: She does, which I mean, to me, has always felt subversion. You know what I mean? Ha ha, here's what you think of me. Okay. Let me give you something to look at and talk about and whatever. So there's that. But also I think that sometimes we forget that there human beings and people underneath these costumes that are hoisted ... Hoisted? Foisted. Foisted?
Josh Gwynn: Put upon.
Tracy Clayton: Yes, that word. Like these, these costumes that are put upon people. Seeing Mariah Carey, it was just so fun for me. She's young, she's bubbly, and she's just energetic and she's just cute. And I feel like that is something that she had the space to be then. You know what I mean? She was allowed to just be a fun, cute young ass talented ass girl doing fun shit that everybody grows up wanting to do. Yes, she's playing a role, but also aw, look at a little baby Mariah. It was just an image or a side or I don't know. I just felt like I was meeting a part of Mariah for the first time, which it was a lot of fun. Also, them side ponytails. I just want to say.
Josh Gwynn: Yo.
Tracy Clayton: Next time, you all see me when the outside is open again, it's going to be to my knee. It's going to be cascading over my left ear and it's just going to be amazing.
Josh Gwynn: Yes.
Tracy Clayton: And I think that Glitter had me convinced that she was a terrible actress.
Josh Gwynn: The perceptions of it before?
Tracy Clayton: Right. Yes. Everybody was just like, "Oh, the movie's so bad. It's such a bad movie." And the reasons that they gave were, "It's a bad movie because it's bad." And I'm like, "Well, I guess the acting had to be bad because..." I'm like, "What else could there be?" And so then when Precious came out, the story was, "Oh my gosh, Mariah's so ugly in this role," which she was not. She's not a bad actress. And I feel like that is a thing that I would love to see Mariah Carey acting in more of everything.
Josh Gwynn: Me too. I think it's something that happens when beauty is a part of your image, because it's really hard for people to take you seriously as an actor or a singer or whatever. People think that you're resting on your face. And that's why you see a lot of times when people are taken really seriously as actresses, they have to ugly themselves up. Halle Berry didn't get an Oscar until she was a crack head.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, say that word.
Josh Gwynn: Nicole Kidman wears prosthetics and wigs in order to transform so that her face isn't distracting. And I feel like the same sort of dynamic is happening. People didn't take her seriously when she was supposed to be a pop star and she's supposed to be beautiful. But the moment that Lee Daniels put some overhead lighting over her-
Tracy Clayton: Right.
Josh Gwynn: ... everyone's like, "Wow."
Tracy Clayton: She learned from her side that's not the best.
Josh Gwynn: "Mariah Carey. She's a social worker."
Tracy Clayton: "She's dedicated."
Josh Gwynn: Exactly.
Tracy Clayton: She's not just doing this because it's fun and she gets to be pretty. She's serious about it. And in Glitter, she was gorgeous. That's a good point. That's a good point.
[Music Ends]
Tracy Clayton: Oh, oh, oh, oh. Speaking of acting, another thing that I loved about this movie, Da Brat.
Josh Gwynn: I love Da Brat.
Tracy Clayton: Listen, she needs her flowers for so many things. Can I just take a second and say that if you have ever had a conversation about the best female rappers ... First of all, if you're doing that update your life, rappers are rappers, it doesn't have to be the best female rapper in the game. Whatever. That's another episode. But if you've ever had a conversation about women rappers and who's the best and Da Brat is not up there, you owe Da Brat an apology.
Josh Gwynn: If only for her verse in Ladies’ Night.
[Clip] Da Brat in Ladies’ Night
Tracy Clayton: So many words and she raps so fast. And it's creative, it's fun, it's goofy, and it's silly. And I'm just like, what can this woman can't do? I'll tell you what else she can do is act. She was so much fun to watch in this movie. I think she's pretty much, at least for me, where all the comic relief came from.
Josh Gwynn: Absolutely.
Tracy Clayton: And I'm always looking for the comic relief when I get to any party. I'm like, where the class clowns at? And so this made me really curious about Da Brat as an actress. So I did a Google because Google is free. And so she has an acting credits before Glitter. She was also apparently in Kazaam.
Josh Gwynn: With Shaq?
Tracy Clayton: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: That's the one that everybody thinks Sinbad was in. Remember?
Tracy Clayton: Yeah. I would love to interview Sinbad about that. How's it feel?
Josh Gwynn: Yeah, yeah.
Tracy Clayton: So she was in Kazaam. She was also in your favorite Carmen: A Hip Hopera. Do you remember her in that?
Josh Gwynn: Iconic. Yeah, she was the chorus.
Tracy Clayton: The chorus?
Josh Gwynn: Narrating the story along.
Tracy Clayton: She was in Carmen. And she was also in some episodes of the Parent 'Hood. Do you remember that sitcom?
Josh Gwynn: I love that show.
Tracy Clayton: Right?
Josh Gwynn: TK and Zaria, shout out to Reagan Gomez-Preston.
Tracy Clayton: I was like, I wish my name was Zaria for the longest time because it starts with a Z and she's so pretty. That's who I wanted to be. So she's done some more acting. She's done some movies here, some sitcoms there. And she is also an executive producer of the current VH1 reality show Growing Up Hip Hop. I'm just saying, just maybe ... Just a thought I'm kicking around. Maybe Glitter was the springboard that led to Da Brat's emergence into the acting field. Maybe. I'm just saying.
Josh Gwynn: Maybe. Maybe. Wait. So my favorite thing, my favorite thing about Glitter is the soundtrack.
Tracy Clayton: The soundtrack is pretty good. You right. You right. I got to give it to you.
Josh Gwynn: No, no.
Tracy Clayton: No?
Josh Gwynn: The soundtrack to Glitter is immaculate.
Tracy Clayton: Okay.
Josh Gwynn: It is a love letter to New York City in the 80s. It's an homage to the sounds of that era, funk, freestyle music and the origins of rap. It is perfect. It is so good.
Tracy Clayton: Come on, spoken word appreciation. That was lovely. That was beautiful.
Josh Gwynn: It is so good, Tracy. It's so good. Can I tell you why?
Tracy Clayton: Yes, please. Please tell me why.
Josh Gwynn: Okay. So Mariah came up ... When she was singing her demos and putting together her demos, she came up in the New York club culture in the 80s. So when she was trying to make it, she came into the city and she was waitressing and going to clubs and being young, dipping and doing it. And because it is a semi autobiographical movie, she wanted it to reflect that time in which she was becoming Mariah Carey. It's one of my favorite eras of music.
Tracy Clayton: I will say, it was really fun to hear what Mariah today would have sounded like back then in the 80s with all the synths. Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: It's a modern interpretation of what those sounds were. So for example,
[Clip] Mariah Carey - I Didn’t Mean To Turn You On
Josh Gwynn: She has a song I Didn't Mean to Turn You On, which is a cover of Shirelles 1984 hit that she's sang was Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis who ran the 80s.
Tracy Clayton: Absolutely.
Josh Gwynn: They had all of the songs on Janet Jackson's Control album, but they also were the ambassadors of the Minneapolis sound, which is a sound that's made famous by the late great Prince.
Tracy Clayton: RIP.
[Clip] Mariah Carey - I Didn’t Mean To Turn You On
Josh Gwynn: They also executive produced this album so if you listen to that song, you hear Prince, you hear-
Tracy Clayton: For sure.
Josh Gwynn: You just want to dance and have fun.
[Clip] Mariah Carey - I Didn’t Mean To Turn You On
Josh Gwynn: And then she does a song called Don't Stop (Funkin' 4 Jamaica), which is a cover of one of my-
Tracy Clayton: Oh, that is my jam. Listen.
Josh Gwynn: ... top 10 favorite songs of all time.
Tracy Clayton: (singing).
[Clip] Tom Browne - Funkin’ For Jamaica
Josh Gwynn: It's by Tom Browne, who's a jazz trumpeter, and Toni Smith, RIP, and you get textures of jazz and funk and you get peak, peak Mariah vocals in the movie when she breaks it down. There's the scene where they're passing the mic around the club and you hear different people rhyming, and they're all rhyming like it's 1984 so it sounds like Sugarhill Gang.
Tracy Clayton: They sure were. (singing).
Josh Gwynn: Exactly. That.
[Clip] Glitter, Folks Rapping
Josh Gwynn: And then Dice, who's her love interest and her producer in the movie-
Tracy Clayton: Oh, God.
Josh Gwynn: ... and is awful, hands Mariah the mic and you just hear her wail.
[Clip] Glitter - Mariah Sings Funkin’ for Jamaica by Tom Browne in Glitter.
Audience: Whoo.
Tracy Clayton: Can I tell you what that scene made me think of?
Josh Gwynn: What?
Tracy Clayton: You remember that scene in What's Love Got to Do with It?
Josh Gwynn: Yes.
Tracy Clayton: Early in Tina's life? (singing).
Josh Gwynn: But, my favorite song to admire for its virtuosity is the song called Lead the Way, and it has my favorite note of Mariah Carey's entire career, which has got this run and then it's got this note that she holds for 21 seconds.
[Clip] Mariah Carey - Lead The Way
Josh Gwynn: It's such a testament to what a freak of nature she is in terms of vocal ability.
Tracy Clayton: Absolutely. That's the perfect way to describe it.
Josh Gwynn: Exactly. And then, you have the sample that broke the camel's back.
Tracy Clayton: What was that?
Josh Gwynn: The lead single from this album. It's a song called Loverboy.
[Clip] Mariah Carey - Loverboy
Josh Gwynn: I mean, can you think of anything as '80s or as black as sampling Cameo's Candy?
Tracy Clayton: No, not at all. There's nothing blacker, maybe, depending on who you ask, than Cameo, period.
Josh Gwynn: My dad loves Cameo.
Tracy Clayton: Word up. It's not a party if you don't have no Cameos. Everybody knows that.
Josh Gwynn: It's not a cookout if there's no Cameo.
Tracy Clayton: It's not a family reunion at all.
Josh Gwynn: But did you know that wasn't the original sample?
Tracy Clayton: No. Well, no. What was? What do you mean?
Josh Gwynn: So, the original sample for the song was the disco classic Firecracker by Yellow Magic Orchestra.
Tracy Clayton: Okay.
Josh Gwynn: However, Irv Gotti told a story on Desus and Mero.
Tracy Clayton: Wow. Juicy. Give it.
Josh Gwynn: Right? About how Tommy Mottola heard that Mariah was going to use that sample.
[Clip]: Yellow Magic Orchestra - “Firecracker”
(instrumental)
Josh Gwynn: and rushed to have J.Lo use the sample for I'm Real.
[Clip]: J.Lo - I’m Real
Tracy Clayton: He is so grimy. How petty.
Josh Gwynn: So, Mariah had to rush to get another sample at the very last minute, and this is thought to be the origin story of the I don't know her meme.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, snap.
Josh Gwynn: That has never died because after all of this happened, once, Mariah was being interviewed by a reporter and they asked her what she thought of J.Lo, and when she replied, she just simply said, "I don't know her."
Tracy Clayton: Wow.
Josh Gwynn: Which, when put in context, was very diplomatic.
Tracy Clayton: I mean, listen, listen, listen, because what I would have said, y'all don't want to know what I would've said. It would not have been as nice.
[Music Starts]
Tracy Clayton: So, the movie was not that bad. It was-
Josh Gwynn: I would say good.
Tracy Clayton: If y'all are listening and you're still kind of iffy, listen, if I could watch then movie and find good things to say about it, then so can you. Josh, you know what? I just want to commend you. I know that some people in your orbit... Not me... can sometimes give you a hard time about opinions that they think are bad or wrong, and I just want you to know that I see this happening and you just... You stand in it. Do you know who you remind me of, actually?
Josh Gwynn: Who?
Tracy Clayton: This tendency of yours to just like what you like and not like what you don't like?
Josh Gwynn: Who?
Tracy Clayton: The one and only Ira Madison III.
Josh Gwynn: We love Ira.
Tracy Clayton: Today, on this very day, he is ready to step into the Back Issue realm, into our universe, if you will, and I hope you will because he has some opinions that just might shock you. Stay tuned and we'll see after the break.
[Music Ends]
[31:13]
Tracy Clayton: Ira Madison III is a TV writer and a host. His writing credits include Q-Force, Daybreak, Nikki Fre$h, Black Panther, Sins of the King, which you can read and listen to on Serial Box, and he currently is the host of Crooked Media's Keep It!, which is one of my favorite things to yell at people. He has cultural commentary bylines absolutely everywhere, including The Daily Beast, GQ, MTV and Noisey. His Twitter is just his first name. [Josh:Mmm] It's just @ira and I'm so envious. Please help me welcome to the show Ira Madison III. Hi, friend.
Ira Madison III: I love this little intro.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, do you feel special and lauded? Because you are.
Ira Madison III: Right. We just start out our show with like, "Hey, it's me. I'm back."
Tracy Clayton: Well, let's start this show with a little behind the scenes story that I want to tell everybody. Once upon a time, I was in LA and Ira was in LA. We were working for the same place and we had gone out and we had had a drink or two or three, I think. What I remember most from this night is walking past this scary-ish, man. He was very tall, dressed in black. He had on a top hat. As a rule I'm just like, "Don't fuck with people in top hats," [Josh and Ira laugh] because you don't know nothing about-
Josh Gwynn: It's a very good rule.
Tracy Clayton: ... where you going, where you coming from. I just remember Ira saying that he looked like the villain from The Princess and the Frog. And yeah, this man heard him and I was like, "Well, we have to fight tonight. This is just great. I don't even know if I can fight."
Ira Madison III: This is coming back to me. This is coming back to me.
Tracy Clayton: Do you remember now?
Ira Madison III: I was acting a fool. He did hear us.
Tracy Clayton: You were. You were acting a fool and I was just like, "Wait a minute, sir. We don't live here. I can't go to this jail." But, I share this story to say that you don't seem to have a difficult time letting people know how you feel or what you think, even if it's a seven-foot tall, very scary man on a street. [Ira laughs] So my question is, were you always just so fearless, just say what's on your mind and if you don't like it, that's that?
Ira Madison III: I actually was not. I was not. When I was in school, particularly before I came out and really just sort of uncomfortable with myself and my body and looks, et cetera, I was a lot more meek. Middle school, people would make fun of you and stuff and my initial response was, then, that's how I learned to be funny and have a quick response. I did become an asshole and then high school, I went to an all-boys Jesuit high school which was predominantly white and so I kept that same energy. So I was definitely the angry black person for a bit and up through college. I think it's slowly, slowly chipped away as I got better friends-
Tracy Clayton: Come on, support system.
Ira Madison III: ... and just really became a person who invited love into my life. The flower petals stopped wilting in my castle, to use that metaphor. I stopped being the beast.
Josh Gwynn: Exactly.
Tracy Clayton: I was not expecting poetry today, I just [inaudable]
Ira Madison III: Josh Gwynn:
How do you know when your opinion is wrong or when everyone else is wrong?
Tracy Clayton: I need to know this answer because I swear up, down and sideways that I don't have bad opinions. Everybody else is just wrong. I'm 98% sure of that but just for the record... How would I, though?
Ira Madison III: Even twerking for MLK? I kidding.
Tracy Clayton: I was twerking for general justice, first of all. It was not just for MLK.
Ira Madison III: I was thinking about this recently because that's what you sort of think about online, this idea of someone coming in with a really hot opinion and a lot of times, they want that attention. They want people dragging them. They want the engagement. But other times, it's like you could tweet something and you could be wrong. I think it did take me a while to sort of realize moments when you are like, "You know what? What I tweeted was shitty. Let me delete it," or "Actually, I was misinformed about this," and "Let me correct myself," but we're not conditioned to do that. And especially online, because of the echo chamber thing, you could tweet that wrong opinion but the echo chamber that you've created, you'll have the likes and responses from friends of yours and people that you follow who are like, "Yeah, you right," but you don't know that they ass is wrong, too.
Tracy Clayton: Right, right.
Josh Gwynn: Right.
Ira Madison III: And y'all all wrong because y'all all are coming from this one particular perspective.
Tracy Clayton: Mmm, I love talking to people who at least sound like they've been through therapy. You are giving me some strong therap vibes. I see you, I l ove it.
Ira Madison III: I have gotten therapy during quarantine, too. Add that to the Xanax and the weed and the drinks.
Tracy Clayton: I love it. I love it.
Josh Gwynn: I have to ask you this question before we get into the next.
Ira Madison III: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: Do you consider yourself a lamb?
Ira Madison III: Oh, am I a lamb? Please. (singing).
Josh Gwynn: Yes. I mean, I peeped your Spotify account and yep, Mariah [inaudible 00:41:43] copied it over.
Tracy Clayton: Our forensic scientist over here.
Josh Gwynn: This whole episode, we've been thinking a lot about Mariah Carey and Glitter. What is your opinion on the movie Glitter?
Tracy Clayton: I'm so excited to hear your thoughts.
Ira Madison III: It's not a good movie, but it's not... but it's not horrendous the way people tried to pretend it was. However, the soundtrack to Glitter
Josh Gwynn: RIGHT!
Ira Madison III: is it, is it.
Josh Gwynn: Let’s gooooooo!
Ira Madison III: The soundtrack is it.
Josh Gwynn: Fire. Fire.
Ira Madison III: Last Night a DJ Saved My Life. I Didn't Mean to Turn You On. Come on.
Josh Gwynn: Funking 4 Jamaica.
Ira Madison III: Yes. Loverboy. Mariah was it.
Josh Gwynn: Loverboy.
Ira Madison III: Mariah was in her bag.
Josh Gwynn: In her Prada bag.
Tracy Clayton: Do you think she's a good actress?
Ira Madison III: Precious is it. She's great in Precious. That whole scene. That is everything.
Josh Gwynn: Man, take your ass down to the welfare.
Tracy Clayton: Get down to the welfare.
Ira Madison III: Since you got your degree and you know every damn thing.
Josh Gwynn: That was good.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, my God.
Josh Gwynn: That was good.
[Music Starts]
Tracy Clayton: Well, speaking of actors and singers, we want to play a quick game with you and we're going to call it, Keep It: The singers turned movie star edition.
Ira Madison III: Yes.
Tracy Clayton: So what we're going to do is we are going to give you a list of some movies that singers made. And you tell us whether or not it's a bop or if they need to stop.
[Music Ends]
Tracy Clayton: Okay, number A, first movie is Burlesque. Cher and, or Christina.
Ira Madison III: Well, Cher is a bop. Because Cher's been in it from the jump.
Tracy Clayton: Yes.
Ira Madison III: Moonstruck, Mermaids, The Clients. Great, great. Christina, she's cute in that movie. It's a bop.
Josh Gwynn: She surprised me. (singing). Madonna in Evita.
Ira Madison III: Actually, the best work she's done. So yes, bop.
Josh Gwynn: Wow.
Ira Madison III: That and Dick Tracy.
Tracy Clayton: She was so good in Dick Tracy.
Josh Gwynn: Yo, I used to have a Dick Tracy lunchbox. Otherwise, get the Madonna off the screen. I'm not watching that.
Tracy Clayton: But Evita is historical. The soundtrack has got some all right songs. Antonio Banderas?
Ira Madison III: I love Evita.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, yay. See, Josh? Evita's good. Ha ha.
Josh Gwynn: Mmmmm... Patti LuPone has something to say.
Tracy Clayton: You know what? As she should.
Ira Madison III: Colonel Peron. [Tracy Joins] Eva Duarte. I've heard so much about you
(singing) Come on, guys. Let's go on tour. Okay, Crossroads. Britney Spears.
Josh Gwynn: Shonda Rhimes.
Ira Madison III: You know I love Ms. Brit. Me and Ms. Shonda. I actually don't like Crossroads. That was one of those [inaudible] things of my Britney fandom. I do not like Crossroads. I would rather watch From Justin to Kelly.
Josh Gwynn: That's the next one.
Tracy Clayton: Kelly Clarkson. From Justin to Kelly.
Ira Madison III: She was great. Justin was not.
Tracy Clayton: Jennifer Hudson in Sex & the City.
Ira Madison III: You know what? I love Jennifer Hudson. She's an amazing actress. Sex & the City is just not a good movie.
Josh Gwynn: Anti-black.
Ira Madison III: Anti-black was the Louis Vuitton that they gave J Hud in that movie.
Josh Gwynn: Exactly. It was awful.
Ira Madison III: It is ugly.
Josh Gwynn: Tim McGraw in The Blind Side.
Ira Madison III: I didn't see The Blind Side.
Tracy Clayton: Me either.
Ira Madison III: I refused.
Tracy Clayton: It just looks real oppressive.
Ira Madison III: I love you Sandy B, but no. I love her, but sometimes she leads you down a bad path. Like Premonition.
Tracy Clayton: Or Birdbox. I'm still mad at that shit. So the moral of the story is if you black, give your life for this white lady and that's how the world should work?
Ira Madison III: Would I give my life for Sandra Bullock? That white lady in particular? Maybe. Sarah Michelle Gellar? Perhaps.
Tracy Clayton: Who else is on this list? This is interesting.
Ira Madison III: White women that I would give my life for.
Tracy Clayton: Because I ain't got none.
Ira Madison III: You know what? Ms. Kelly, Kelly Clarkson. But she would never ask me to. And that's why I would.
Tracy Clayton: Right.
Josh Gwynn: Kylie Minogue in Street Fighter.
Ira Madison III: You know I love Ms. Kylie, and she is great in Street Fighter, a movie which makes no sense.
Tracy Clayton: Yo. First of all, Street Fighter is my favorite bad movie. It's probably my second favorite movie of all time, of all time. And I didn't know until today that Kylie Minogue was even in that movie. It just didn't register the 8,000 times that I saw it. She was good in the movie though.
Ira Madison III: Yeah, I like her in that.
Josh Gwynn: And the last one, Gwen Stefani.
Tracy Clayton: The Aviator.
Ira Madison III: Oh, I love her in that movie. That's one of my favorite scenes in a Scorsese film, her and Leo emerging from the limo, stepping on the flash bulbs. It's great.
Josh Gwynn: It's like her face was made to exist in that era.
Ira Madison III: It's so funny to me that, like, you know Gwen, who's been every culture, [Josh Gasps] was best as an ice blonde white woman.
Tracy Clayton: How do we let her just get away with kidnapping all them Asian children and just run around?
Ira Madison III: Because she was so good at it. The other girls are like sloppy appropriation, you know? Like, she was in every country. Her passport was stamped.
Josh Gwynn: You know, it's funny that you mentioned that she was at her best when she was being her authentic white woman, because my favorite Gwen Stefani video is Cool.
Ira Madison III: Yes. I mean, well, she was impersonating a brunette.
Tracy Clayton: [Laughing] Impersonating a brunette. What's your most controversial or unpopular opinion? What do your friends get on you about the most? Whether it's food, whether it's movies, music, whatever. It's a safe space. Don't worry, we won't tell anybody.
Ira Madison III: Y'all broadcasting this. [all laugh] But I've admitted this online before. I enjoyed the Big Bang Theory.
Tracy Clayton: Aw, man. That makes me sad.
Josh Gwynn: Ira, wasn't that the most popular show on TV for 10 years or something?
Ira Madison III: Yeah, but like, basic.
[Music Starts]
Tracy Clayton: It's bad. It's not a good show. It's not funny.
Josh Gwynn: I've never watched it.
Tracy Clayton: Don't, don't do that to yourself. You are a delight. Thank you so much.
Josh Gwynn: For sure.
Ira Madison III: Of course. You know it's lovely to Kiki with y'all.
Josh Gwynn: Thank you, Ira. (singing)
[Music Ends]
[Learn Something From This Bounce Remix Plays]
Tracy Clayton: Alright. So this is the part of the show where we channel the one and only Tyra Banks and we take her advice and we do our best to learn something from this. Joshua Louise?
Josh Gwynn: Yes'm?
Tracy Clayton: Did we…
[Clip] Tyra Banks: Learn something from this.
Josh Gwynn: I learned that I love Glitter even though everyone hates it. And guess what, Tracy? That's okay.
Tracy Clayton: You know what? It is okay. And guess what I've learned?
Josh Gwynn: What?
Tracy Clayton: I learned that I don't even hate Glitter. [Josh:Ayy!!!] I thought I did, but I don't. I really don't. Also, I've learned that our guilty pleasures, they deserve some freeing. I say we stop using the term guilty pleasure. Because why are you feeling guilty about being happy and feeling good about yourself? Why? Where's the guilt?
Josh Gwynn: If you like what you like, you like what you like.
Tracy Clayton: Like what you like. Choose your choice. Watch your shows. I thought I was going to have another very rhythmic list there. I did not have that.
Josh Gwynn: And guess what else?
Tracy Clayton: What?
Josh Gwynn: That's okay too.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, my gosh. I'm already transformed by this, for real.
Josh Gwynn: And also, Tracy, is it really that shocking that... When you consider all of the moving pieces, 9/11,
Tracy Clayton: Right
Josh Gwynn: Tommy Mottola,
Tracy Clayton: True
Josh Gwynn: The media's scrutiny of her mental health-
Tracy Clayton: Also that.
Josh Gwynn : ... the person that would be torn down in the end of all of it was a Black woman?
Tracy Clayton: You know what? Y'all can't see me, but I have a Sunday morning church fan in my hand and it is just working overtime, because ain't that it? Is that not the way?
[Music]
Tracy Clayton: But yeah, it's okay to be proud about what makes you happy and what makes you feel good, and what helps you to breathe a little bit easier, because these are things that you need to have in your life literally to life. If you don't have any joy in your life, if you can't get them serotonin popping in your brain, your body will suffer, your mental health suffers. [Josh: Well] You need things that make you feel good. Choir, come on, choir.
Josh Gwynn: Preach, preacher.
Tracy Clayton: GP, are you with me?
Josh Gwynn: Oh, yeah. We watching Glitter. We ain't going nowhere.
Tracy Clayton: You know what?
[Music Ends]
[45:48]
[Music Begins]
Tracy Clayton: Back Issue is a production of Pineapple Street Studios.
Josh Gwynn:This show was created and is hosted by Tracy Clayton.
Tracy Clayton: And me, Josh Gwynn. Our lead producers are Josh Gwynn and Emmanuel Hapsis.
Josh Gwynn: Our managing producer is John Asante.
Tracy Clayton: Our senior editor is Leila Day. Special thanks to Gabrielle Young.
Josh Gwynn: Our Associate producer is Alexis Moore. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky.
Tracy Clayton: This show features music by the one and only, Donwill. You can follow him on the socials @djdonwill, and you can follow me on the socials @brokeymcpoverty.
Josh Gwynn: And you can follow me @regardingjosh. Subscribe to this podcast wherever free podcasts are sold. Tell a friend, tell your movie night, bring it up in all those Zooms that you do not want to be a part of.
Tracy Clayton: Just in the middle of it, be like, "Yeah, TPS reports. But have you heard Back Issue though? Have you heard it? Have you heard the good word about Back Issue?"
Josh Gwynn: You can use the hashtag Back Issue podcast to talk about it on Twitter. You can follow us @backissuepodcast on Instagram.
Tracy Clayton: Go watch Glitter and tell us what you think.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah, tell us all of your opinions. We will stand by you even if they're awful.
Tracy Clayton: Well [Josh Laughs]... Josh will. Bye.
[Music Ends]
Tracy Clayton: I'm going to stop recording. Oh, that's the wrong button.