BACK ISSUE
Remember When Girl Groups Were Everywhere? (Feat. Cindy Herron-Braggs)
Turn the Radio On, Where Have All The Girl Groups Gone?
This week, Tracy and Josh talk all things girl groups. From the diva-era of Motown to the holy trinities of the early aughts, they debate the biggest and baddest girl groups of all time, and discuss what they have meant for the culture. Then Cindy Herron-Braggs, founding member of En Vogue, joins to discuss their era-defining legacy, and the possible 90s group Verzuz of our dreams.
This episode is dedicated to the memory of Karan Nevatia. May he and Left-Eye kick it everyday. Rest in Power, Karan.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION
[0:00]
Josh Gwynn: Girl, you gotta put the phone closer to the radio
Tracy Clayton: I am, this is not the first time I’ve done this. Hello, I was born at night, not last night. You ready? Get the volume button ready, you gotta fade it out.
Josh Gwynn: They ain’t ready for my fades, okay? You ready?
Tracy Clayton: Okay, okay now remember, you got to sound alluring, you’ve must sound aloof. You have to sound like Jade in the beginning of Don’t Walk Away. You remember?
Girl I got it! On the count of three.
Tracy Clayton: Okay, you mean one, two, three go? Or one two three where you go on the number three?
Josh Gwynn: Who starts at the literal number three? On go. On go.
Tracy Clayton: I don’t know what you like to do in your spare time, that’s why I’m trying to ask and get the rules.
Josh Gwynn: Okay.
Tracy Clayton: Okay.
Josh Gwynn: One, Two, Three, go.
[Music Plays]
Both: Hi!
Josh Gwynn: You’ve reached the back issue hotline
Tracy Clayton: We’re not here right now, but if you leave your name, number, and a message [singing] we’ll get back to you.
Josh Gwynn:[singing].. .to you .
Tracy Clayton: To you… [laughs] .
Both: Bye!
[Music slows, and restarts]
Voicemail: Hi. I work a humbly [inaudible] request, which is three little letters about a huge pop culture impact: 3 L W. Um, but 3 LW in particular came around in a really interesting time, I think in particular because of technology, because I remember first hearing about the infamous split despite um, with Naturi, um through a, uh, forum, like online bulletin board, And then when Kieley’s, um, video, uh, was dropped three years later after that, I remember, like, watching it on a terrible, like, dial up connection, like the early YouTube. But also they make bangers, let’s not forget, they make total bangers. But nothing but love for 3LW and I would love for you to get into some aspect of their short-lived, but astonishing career.
[02:04]
[CLIP] Voice: Beyoncé ? You look like Luther Vandross.
[CLIP] Voice: Hoe, but make it fashion.
[CLIP] Voice: But you ain't heard that from me.
[CLIP] Voice: Fierce.
[CLIP] Voice: [Singing] Call him.'
[CLIP] Voice: Can't stop.
[CLIP] Voice: [Soft voices rising in background] You see, when you do clownery,
[CLIP] Voice: 'Cause we won't stop.
[CLIP] Voice: --the clown comes back to bite.
[CLIP] Voice: --Can't get no sleep cause ya'll--
[CLIP] Voice: --It's Britney, bitch.
[CLIP] Voice: Y'all not gonna get no sleep cause of me.
[CLIP] Voice: [Voices overlapping] We were rooting for you, Tiffany, we were all rooting for you... [Overlapping voices build into crescendo]
[CLIP] Single voice: Walls?
[CLIP] Single voice: Who said that?
Josh Gwynn: Welcome to Back Issue. A weekly podcast that revisits formative moments in pop culture that we still think about.
Tracy Clayton: This week [singing] Where did all the girl groups go? Go? [Clears throat] oh?
Josh Gwynn: Bars.
Tracy Clayton: Thank you. Each week, we'll go back into the past and revisit unforgettable moments that we all think we remember.
Josh Gwynn: And learn what they can teach us about where we are now.
[CLIP]
T-Boz: Oh my God, turn on channel 5.
Chilli: Lisa Burned the house down.
[CLIP] Star Search
Ed McMahon: The hip hop rapping Girls Tyme.
[CLIP] Spice Girls Interview
Spice Girls: Girl power.
[CLIP] Behind the Music
Lisa ‘Left Eye’ Lopes: This is how a group can sell 10 million records and be broke.
[CLIP] Verzuz
Brandy: We’re A group.
Monica: We are not a group.
Tracy Clayton: I am Tracy Clayton.
Josh Gwynn: And I am Josh Gwynn. I think this might be one of my favorite episodes that we're going to ever do.
Both: Laughing.
[03:25]
Josh Gwynn: Did you hear that voicemail?
Tracy Clayton: I did. And I’m so, so glad that we have the hotline, because then the listeners get to be a part of the show, and it’s so much fun.
Josh Gwynn: Even if they’re across the pond.
Tracy Clayton: Jo-Jolly-o gov-Govna’. Ayy. Pip pip and all that innit?
Josh Gwynn: Wait, we want them to keep calling.
Tracy Clayton: Oh you’re right, you’re right um. The jury will disregard that terrible, um, accent if you please. Call us with your pop culture questions, mysteries, and emergencies at 678 744 7783, and you could be a part of the show. And you might want to play those numbers in the lottery, I don’t know. If you do, we get half of it though.
Josh Gwynn: Ha. But, you know what else. That caller was 100% right. 3LW really went through it.
Tracy Clayton: Yes, there was the alleged food fight that happened when Naturi left. ]
Josh Gwynn: Mhmm.
Tracy Clayton: And, I- All I have to do is say the words The Sex is Spectacular. And you know what I’m talking about.
Josh Gwynn: If I wanted to forget that video, I wouldn’t be able two. That song has two of the most bird ass lyrics I think I’ve ever heard in my entire life.
Tracy Clayton: Which ones? You must, you must show me these bird-ass lyrics.
Josh Gwynn: There’s one where she goes:
[CLIP] Spectacular by Kieley Williams: I think he pulled a track out. When he was blowing my back out.
Tracy Clayton: I forgot about that.
Josh Gwynn: My favorite though is the slant rhyme, where she goes:
[CLIP] Spectacular by Kieley Williams: I hope he used a rubber. Or I’ma be in trouble.
Tracy Clayton: Oh no [both laugh]
Josh Gwynn: You know me Tracy, I’m all for bird-ass lyrics, but they have to be executed correctly.
Tracy Clayton: Trubba? Uh, Cringey.
Josh Gwynn: To me, it sounded like a Disney star being like ‘I’m an adult! I’m not a cheetah girl! I’ve grown up!’ You know?
Tracy Clayton: ‘I have the sex! I do it! I do sex too!’
Josh Gwynn: What’s your favorite 3LW moment?
Tracy Clayton: Honestly, my favorite 3LW moments are all of the fashion, if that counts?
Josh Gwynn: Mmmm. Yeah it counts.
Tracy Clayton: It was just such a specific time, you know like,this is like-
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Tracy Clayton: -the era of jeans, underneath dresses for some reason,
Josh Gwynn: Mhmm.
Tracy Clayton: and like the, the big, exaggerated chain belts that hang lower on one side than the other one. Ugh I used to love me a chain belt. Lots of shiny stuff.
Josh Gwynn: Uh-huh.
Tracy Clayton: Butterfly clips, I remember.
Josh Gwynn: 3LW was like a Limited Too add.
Tracy Clayton: Spokespersons for Wet Seal, pretty much. Fashions upon fashions. Do you remember that store 579?
Josh Gwynn: No.
Tracy Clayton: I was always mad. There was a store, Oh My God, there was a store called 5 7 9 because those were the sizes that they sold?
Josh Gwynn: Wait- [laughs]
Tracy Clayton: Swear, I would walk past that fucking store and be like ‘one day you son of a bitch’. And never. I never got my ass in 579.
Josh Gwynn: [laughs]
Tracy Clayton: But, Joshua Louise.
Josh Gwynn: Mhmm.
Tracy Clayton:I think that we should zoom out a little bit, and instead of just focusing on 3LW, we should get into like girl groups in general because number one, there were so many of them, And number two: where did they go?
Josh Gwynn: Ughhhh where did they go?
Tracy Clayton: Bring ‘em back Lord
Josh Gwynn: I miss them so much Tracy, but, if we go with your plan, that means we have a lot to cover today. Like, the entire legacy of the girl group in one tiny episode.
Tracy Clayton: It’s a lofty goal, but I think we can do it. Lofty. Lo-lofty? It’s a big goal, but we can do it. [Kosh laughs] I propose that we phone a friend to help us.
Josh Gwynn: Who?
Tracy Clayton: How about a one, Cindy Herron - Braggs, founding member of the quintessential group En Vogue.
Josh Gwynn: [Vocalizing background of My Lovin' (You're Never Gonna Get It) by En Vogue] Oooh my first mistake was [singing]
Tracy Clayton: [singing] I wanted too much time. I had to have him morning, noon and night? Okay, so do you remember or did you have in the land where you grew up, a channel called The Box or The Jukebox?
Josh Gwynn: The Box.
Tracy Clayton: Okay. So when I was little we didn't have cable. That's how I consumed my music and my music videos. And that video, the video for hold on, I would sit in front of my TV in the basement and just wait and wait and wait until I saw on the bottom of the screen that it was coming on and I would get so excited. I still remember two thirds of the choreography from the video.
Josh Gwynn: This is all telling me that we should sit down and just nail some of our favorite moments with girl groups.
Tracy Clayton: Can I go first? Can I go first?
Josh Gwynn: Go first. Go first.
[Music Starts]
Tracy Clayton: Okay. One of my favorite girl group facts is a group called Voices. Are you familiar with Voices?
Josh Gwynn: No.
Tracy Clayton: Voices is Tia and Tamera's R&B group that they were in when they were children. Pre-Sister Sister.
Josh Gwynn: Oh my God.
Tracy Clayton: It's the cutest thing in the world. There was this one song called Yeah Yeah Yeah, and it went [singing] Yeah Yeah Yeah (yeah!).
[CLIP] Yeah Yeah Yeah by Voices
And then there was this other song called Cloudy With A Chance Of Tears. That was their heartbroken song. So I'm just like, "You all are 12. This is just so relevant to me." And then when Sister Sister started I was like, "Where I know them from?"
Tracy Clayton: It's because in my heart they were singers first. I just wanted the world to know that. Another one of my favorite girl group moments, it happened fairly recently but it was very important and formative in my life. Do you know what I'm about to say?
Josh Gwynn: I know 100% what you about to say because I was going to say the same thing.
Tracy Clayton: But do you?
Josh Gwynn: Did you?
Tracy Clayton: It was the missing girl group reality show that we only got those weird random clips from Twitter and they were fucking amazing.
Josh Gwynn: I think it was from a failed reality show TV pilot called Last Chance Girl Groups. It was produced by D Woods from Danity Kane. It had Kiely Williams from 3LW, Farrah Franklin who was in Destiny's Child for a hot second, it had the girls from Cherish. The scene that got leaked to Twitter was this confrontation between Farrah and Kiely, when they were kind of debating who had the best legacy as a girl group, and Farrah was like, My girl group went on to become the most successful girl group of all time, and Kiely had questions…
[CLIP] Last Chance Girl Groups
Farrah: I sold 19 million albums on “Say My Name.”
Kieley: I know. But did you-
Farrah: Did I what? Ask it.
Kieley: Did you-
Farrah: Absolutely. I sang. [Singing] Say My name, Say My Name.
Both: Did you?
Josh Gwynn: It just made me so nostalgic for the time when all these girl groups existed. It wasn't just like we had one, we had so many.
Tracy Clayton: There was a plethora. There was enough of them to have competition between each other. I just want them back.
Josh Gwynn: Same. Can I bring up one more favorite girl group moment?
Tracy Clayton: Yeah, yeah.
Josh Gwynn: I reference this maybe once a day and so I'm sure you know what I'm about to-
Tracy Clayton: I'm positive I do. Go ahead.
Josh Gwynn: The Behind The Music episode for TLC is the best Behind The Music of Behind The Music history. It is so good.
Tracy Clayton: There's not a better one, period.
Josh Gwynn: When Lisa Lopes, RIP-
Tracy Clayton: RIP.
Josh Gwynn: ... let us know how you could sell 10 million records and still be broke.
Tracy Clayton: And still be broke.
[Music Ends]
[CLIP ]Behind The Music
Lisa Lopes: All right. This is how a group can sell 10 million records and be broke. And everyone get ready to do your math. When we first started out, okay, there are 100 points on a album. TLC had seven. Every point is equal to eight cents. Seven times eight, 56 cents. That means every time an album gets sold, TLC gets 56 cents.
Tracy Clayton: When I tell you I went and got my little pencil out-
Josh Gwynn: I definitely remember seeing T-Boz and Chilli's reaction to finding out that Lisa Lopes burned down Andre Rison's house.
Tracy Clayton: Okay. So that's something that I think i quote 50 times in one day. She's just a perfect announcement for when something has happened. Girl, turn on channel three. Lisa done burned the house down.
Josh Gwynn: Lisa, when she said, "I felt like the house of hate was burned to the ground," and you just saw her face and she just was giving off this vibe like, "And I'd do it again-"
Tracy Clayton: Right, I'm not sorry.
Josh Gwynn: And then you saw on the cover of Vibe TLC in firefighter outfits and the headline says, "TLC Fires It Up. Burning Up The Charts And Burning Down The House." I just remember being like, "I want to be them so bad."
Tracy Clayton: They have Lisa in the middle with her hand up, she's the only one that has on a fireman's hat so she's the star of this picture, and her face is like, "I sure did. And what? Want to fight?"
Josh Gwynn: Exactly. There's no way we're going to be able to capture every single moment that we love with girl groups, there's just too many of them. I think we should do an honorable mentions.
Tracy Clayton: Honorable mentions. Okay. Honorable mentions go to Coco's nails. Remember how long they were?
Josh Gwynn: Honorable mention goes to that Alicia Keys performance where she performed with SWV En Vogue and TLC all in one performance.
Tracy Clayton: That time that Michelle fell on 106 & Park. Not laughing at, it's just it's a formative pop culture moment. I'm just saying.
Josh Gwynn: The show must go on. Xscape's Tonight but especially Tiny's vocals at the end.
[CLIP] Tonight by XScape
Tracy Clayton: Oh oh oh oh, also honorable mention has to go to Missy's R&B group Sister. It was her and three other girls singing their little butts off. They had these real long ponytails in the video and the Jodeci boots and these big baggy clothes and these big members only jackets. It was just like that's who I still want to be to this day.
Josh Gwynn: Cherish and the snap music movement.
Tracy Clayton: Jade, the '90s girl group with the best HBCU aesthetic I've ever seen.
Josh Gwynn: When Fifth Harmony was performing at the VMAs and Camila Cabello had just left and so they yanked a figure that was supposed to be her off of the stage.
Tracy Clayton: Wow. The drama.
Josh Gwynn: I just can't believe they did that. Imagine Destiny's Child yanking two figures off the stage and then Farrah and Michelle walked up, like, that would be insane.
Tracy Clayton: That's wild.
[Music Ends]
Josh Gwynn: So, the way that my mind works, I divide girl groups into these distinct eras. You have the super heavy development era of Motown in the '60s. Then you have the disco era of the '70s and '80s. And then you have the boom of the '90s.
Tracy Clayton: Oh boom.
Josh Gwynn: And then you have Y2K like the girls that were around at the turn of the millennium.
Tracy Clayton: Like your Danity Kanes and your what nots?
Josh Gwynn: Exactly. And so in order to figure out where girl groups went I think we have to establish who the players are and I think a way we can do that is with a bracket system.
Tracy Clayton: Ooh like a March Madness style?
Josh Gwynn: Yeah. Stay with me. Stay with me. So my dad plays fantasy football. I don't know nothing about that. I just sit around for the food and when they read each other, that's my favorite part. I've always wondered, why can't we have a fantasy football bracket thing about something that I care about? So let's do that.
Tracy Clayton: Okay. I'm with you, I'm with you. I'm down.
Josh Gwynn: We can make a bracket of all the girl groups through all the different eras. The bracket will be available online on social media @backissuepodcast on Instagram, and on Twitter using the hashtag BackIssuePodcast, if you want to play along.
Tracy Clayton: Follow us, follow us, follow us and we could fight.
Josh Gwynn: And we can fight as a family.
[Music Starts]
Tracy Clayton: Okay. So Josh as you know and as you said there are a super mega ton lot of girl groups. And so we don't have time to do a properly sized battle of all the relevant girl groups. So instead we're going to go era by era and we're going to make it a little bit fun by randomly drawing the name of a girl group who was just top of the charts. And no matter who we get, we have to defend them as the best girl group of the era. That make sense?
Josh Gwynn: Yeah, it do. What do we call it? Girl group madness. Fantasy girl groups.
Tracy Clayton: I feel like both of these are porn titles.
Josh Gwynn: Oh no.
Tracy Clayton: Girl group fantasy. Fantasy girl groups. What's the word for a big ass fight? Girl group-
Josh Gwynn: Melee.
Tracy Clayton: Girl group melee. I like it. I like it.
Josh Gwynn: I like a girl group named melee. I think that works.
Tracy Clayton: Did we just form a girl group?
Josh Gwynn: I think we might have.
Tracy Clayton: Well guess what? I'm going solo. Haha. You always want to be the first one. You always want to be the first to go solo. All right, girl group melee, let's do it.
Josh Gwynn: Let go.
Voice: Era one.
Josh Gwynn: It's like The Hunger Games.
Tracy Clayton: May the odds ever be in your favor. So the first era you identify as Motown and the development era. Can you explain the development part a little bit?
Josh Gwynn: So Motown was really well known for taking an artist and molding them into the star that they would become which involves patience, it involves time, it involves money. It was very similar to how actresses, when the studio system was a thing in Hollywood, where somebody would arrive with a suitcase and a name-
Tracy Clayton: And a dream.
Josh Gwynn: ... and they'd be like, "That's not a star's name." They would mold them and they would teach them how to do interviews and they would teach them how to dance and they would teach them how to sing.
Tracy Clayton: Etiquette classes.
Josh Gwynn: Etiquette classes. They would teach them how to be personable. That is one of the most defining aspects of that era to me.
Tracy Clayton: All right, okay.
Josh Gwynn: Each of us is going to hit a button and we'll get assigned a girl group from this era and then we have to debate it out Tracy.
Tracy Clayton: You know how competitive I am. I know this is all in good fun but if I don't win, I quit.
Josh Gwynn: Let's do it. You go first.
Tracy Clayton: All right. Here we go. I'm pushing this very large randomize button that absolutely exists. Thank you very much. [Button Spin sound] The Supremes.
Josh Gwynn: Ayy. I'm going to get [button spin sound] Martha and the Vandellas.
Tracy Clayton: They sang-
Josh Gwynn: [singing] Heatwave
Tracy Clayton: [singing] Oh, burning in my heart.
Josh Gwynn: Yes.
Tracy Clayton: Okay, okay, all right.
Josh Gwynn: And they also sang Dancing In The Street.
Tracy Clayton: You got a good group. Not that The Supremes is anything to sneeze at. All right. Let's get a random number of seconds from the clock.
[Ding]
Voice: Round one, fight.
[Ticking Sound]
Tracy Clayton: So I feel like this argument pretty much makes itself. The Supremes, titled so because they were The Supremes. Diana Ross anyone? Have you ever heard of her?Have you? Of course you have. Do you know why? Because The Supremes were that girl group. You see what I did? It was that girl group. I think I should get points for that and for the flare. I think I've said all that needs to be said. Their works is the rest. Good luck.
[Timer Ends, Buzzer Sounds]
Josh Gwynn: That was really good.
Tracy Clayton: Thank you. I went to law school. I didn't go to law school you all.
Josh Gwynn: What, like it's hard? Okay, so I have Martha and the Vandellas. Ready?
Voice: Round one, fight.
[Ticking Sound]
Josh Gwynn: What is better than being the best?
Tracy Clayton: Being The Supremes.
Josh Gwynn: Being the underdog. Because it shows intestinal fortitude. Martha and the Vandellas existed in a world where The Supremes existed but they persisted. They kept going. They ended up getting inducted into the rock and roll hall of fame in 1995 way after the fact. Being perfect is boring.
Josh Gwynn: No one wants to go see a movie about perfect people with their perfect lives. People want to see complication, they want to see struggle, they want to see persistence. And I maintain that Martha and the Vandellas are the underdogs of the Motown era and therefore the most interesting.
[Ticking Ends, Buzzer Sounds]
Tracy Clayton: Wow. Okay. First of all you cheated because you had Jesse Jackson write your little Rodman Lang moment that you had. A clear violation of the rules. I would have got me a ghost writer too, you know what I'm saying? I could have called Obama, I could have called somebody. I don't have a rebuttal, I'm just ripe because Diana Ross, that's why. You go find Tracee Ellis Ross and tell her that her mom and them wasn't the baddest thing at the whole Motown era. Go do it.
Josh Gwynn: Oh, see that's not fair. You can't bring Tracee into it.
Tracy Clayton: I dare you. You not going do it. So I won I think.
[Ding Sound]
Josh Gwynn: Yeah, I think you did.
Tracy Clayton: Is that a victory bell, I hear ding ding ding ding ding. Woooo!
Josh Gwynn: Okay. Let's move on to era two.
Tracy Clayton: And era two you have identified as the disco era, right?
Josh Gwynn: Yeah, disco in the '70s and the '80s. Who we got?
Tracy Clayton: Let's ask the randomizer. [Button Spin Sound] The Pointer Sisters. All right. Okay.
Josh Gwynn: Okay. I get-
Tracy Clayton: The Pointer Sisters. All right. Okay.
Josh Gwynn: I get [Button Spin Sound] The Weather Girls.
Tracy Clayton: Aw.
Josh Gwynn: You went first last time. I'll go first this time.
Tracy Clayton: Okay. That's fair, go ahead.
[Ticking Sound]
Josh Gwynn: The Weather Girls, their voices are incredible. And do you know all the discrimination that they had to face in their era for being plus-sized? They had to deal with what I call the Ursula-ing of voices, where people would sing and then they would hire some skinny model to actually be in the visual.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, Ursula from The Little Mermaid.
Josh Gwynn: Exactly. And they still kept singing, and it kept raining men. So when considering disco and the disco era, it is impossible to leave out Azura Armstead and Martha Wash.
[Ticking Ends, Buzzer Sounds]
Tracy Clayton: Not bad. I am in favor of putting some respect on their names, whether I win or not. It was good.
Tracy Clayton: All right. Pointer Sisters, right? I'm ready. Here we go. [Ticking Sound] You know the Pointer Sisters even if you do not think that you know The Pointer Sisters. You've heard their music. It's everywhere. They're baked into the very history, the very fiber of who we are as an American society. Hits like "Jump."
Josh Gwynn: [Singing] "Jump, for my love.
Tracy Clayton: ump in."
See, look. "He's So Shy." Oh my gosh, "Slow Hand." Who amongst us does not want to man with a slow hand? I know I do, of course. Jessie Spano's entire story. Would be different would be different had The Pointer Sisters not made the song, "I'm So Excited." Okay? Because that's why she was doing so much. She had to sing that song in the talent show. And she had too much No-Doze, and, "She's so excited. I'm so excited.”
Both: “I'm so... Scared"
[Ticking Ends, Buzzer Sounds]
Tracy Clayton: And scene, remember when I said you know The Pointer Sisters?
Josh Gwynn: I think you win.
Tracy Clayton: You know The Pointer Sisters. Thank you.
Josh Gwynn: I think you won that round.
Tracy Clayton: And thank you.
Josh Gwynn: I will give you that one.
Tracy Clayton: I will collect my second point, please. [Ding sounds]
Josh Gwynn: Ayy, I'm going to give you that round.
Tracy Clayton: You're being incredibly fair with the points. I just love it when people are like, ‘Yeah, you won. Yes, correct."’ Alright.
Josh Gwynn: That ends now.
Tracy Clayton: Round three. We are now in the 90's. What did you call it earlier? The boom of the 90's?
Josh Gwynn: The boom of the 90's. [laughs]
Tracy Clayton: [laughs] Groups, of course, that we're talking about are all your favorite girl groups.
Josh Gwynn: There were just so many.
Tracy Clayton: Destiny's Child, X-scape.
Josh Gwynn: 702.
Tracy Clayton: Mary, Mary.
Josh Gwynn: Zhane.
Tracy Clayton: Zhane. SWV. Cleopatra, coming at ya.
Josh Gwynn: Coming at ya. So many.
Tracy Clayton: All right. Random generalizer button, don't fail me now. [Button Spin Sound] Eoww, Tracy has TLC. I win. Can we just skip to the next era because-
Josh Gwynn: Let me see who I get first. [Button Spin Sound] The Braxtons?
Tracy Clayton: Rigged. Anybody that knows Josh knows that he is the biggest fan of every last one of the Braxtons.
Josh Gwynn: I love the Braxtons.
Tracy Clayton: You know it though. I'm not I'm not scared. Me and TLC been rocking for a minute. I'm not scared. I'm not scared at all.
[Ticking Begins]
Tracy Clayton: TLC, first and foremost, I would just like everyone to know that TLC is not just an acronym for Tender Loving Care. It's not just an acronym for The Learning Channel. And you know what? It's not just an acronym for T-Boz, Left Eye, and Chilli. You know what else is it's an acronym for? Me. Those are also my initials, ladies and gentlemen.
Josh Gwynn: The girl was me. That girl was me. Come on, Kamala.
Tracy Clayton: That alone. I mean, I just feel like if that has not moved you to say yes. Obviously, best girl group of all four decades and eras. That's fine. You might need a little bit more of something else to convince you, and I got you. I got "Waterfalls." I got "Creep." I got hits on hits on hits. And, they are just like, again, into our collective consciousness as a people? Also Chili's baby hair could physically beat up everybody else in this category. [Ticking Ends, Buzzer Sounds] The defense rests. [Laughs]
Josh Gwynn: [Laughs] That was pretty good. Okay. So the Braxton's right. You ready?
Tracy Clayton: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: All my life. I've been waiting for this moment.
Tracy Clayton: Oh God.
[Ticking Begins]
Josh Gwynn: What do you want out of a girl group? You want the blend? You want the harmonies. Who's able to give you that more than sisters who have been singing the same damn songs since they were six? Also, this group is really well known for their improvisation. They will give you a handwritten, brand new song on the drop of a hat. I'm going to give you some of their top hits. The daddy song. "If you call him daddy, I know he'd get in the panties. So daddy, daddy, daddy, daddy, daddy, daddy. Toni's always late and touch the fertile tree, the fertile tree." [Both Laugh]
Josh Gwynn: So if you want to girl group that has a sense of history, the blend, and is able to improvise on the drop of a hat, you've got the Braxtons.
[Ticking Ends, Buzzer Sounds]
Tracy Clayton: Wow, I did not I think I was going to walk away from this episode feeling like the Braxtons are a bigger and better girl group than TLC. I can't say that I saw that happening, but I think that's what just happened. Wow. Okay. All right. That was wonderful.
Josh Gwynn: Did I get a win? Did I get a win, Tracy? Did I get a win?
Tracy Clayton: That's that's a win. That is a win. I can't even deny it. I can't.
Josh Gwynn: Okay. Let's do the last one.
Tracy Clayton: Okay. So this is our last round. It's our last decade. This is the early aughts. It's Y2K random generator. Let's go. [Button Spin Sound] The Cheetah Girls? Somebody hates me.
Josh Gwynn: Wait, let me see who I got. [Button Spin Sound] Blaque.
Tracy Clayton: Man.
Josh Gwynn: Boom, like an 808.
Tracy Clayton: Again.
Josh Gwynn: Ready?
Tracy Clayton: I guess.
[Ticking Begins]
Josh Gwynn: Okay. So you have Blaque. Lisa Left Eye Lopez's mentees. They took a bunch of TLC style. They had really fun fashion, really fun bops that were so cute. They were really great actresses. They were amazing in Bring It On. I'd also love to say R.I.P. to Latina. I loved her rapping style. Shamari, who was the lead singer, she came out with choreography of the century with her husband, Ronnie Devoe, when they were on that television show. And they hit them with the shoulders.
Josh Gwynn: And I would also like to say that Brandy from Blaque had a very important role in the song "Grills" by Nelly. She sets off the entire tone where she goes "Smile for me, daddy." I mean, mind blown, bring in all of the awards. What other group allowed JC from N-Sync to sing about his Timbs, his baggy jeans, and his sex appeal? Blaque.
[Ticking Ends, Buzzer Sounds]
Tracy Clayton: Wow. That was, it was a journey you took us, took us places I regret to inform you that I'm going to have to disqualify that answer on the basis that nobody should ever put any respect on that damn shoulders dance on that show like it was something.
Josh Gwynn: Oh, it was amazing. I loved it. Yeah.
Tracy Clayton: I will not allow it. It has been registered. It's been recorded for the record.
Josh Gwynn: Your turn.
Tracy Clayton: All right. Let's go. The Cheetah Girls. [Ticking Begins] The group of four multi-ethnic, capital M, multiethnic girls.
Josh Gwynn: It's not capital M.
Tracy Clayton: The girl for... It's very intentional. It felt very intentional. There's a girl for everyone. There's a girl for every flavor? There's Raven Simone for your-
Josh Gwynn: From every continent in Africa.
Tracy Clayton: Continent in Africa, yes. So if that's you, bam, you have your idol. You have Ms. Keily Williams of 3LW. You also have sandy brown hair, bam. That's your person. And then there was two more. But look, the point is...and this is what's going to win it for me.
Tracy Clayton: Cheetahs are an amazing animal. Can I just talk about cheetahs now? Is this the place for it? So cheetahs, even though they're real fast and they're real scary and they could kill you, they are not considered big cats like lions and tigers are because they purr. I think that's fucked up. And they're also very anxious animals. They get nervous and stuff like that. And so, in choosing the cheetah as their mascot, if you will, they're just like, ‘Look, we are fierce. We are strong. We're Cheetah Girls, Cheetah sisters. But also, you know what? We're soft. We purr. We get anxious. We are who we are, and that's it. [Ticking Ends, Buzzer Sounds] Disney Channel money, bam.
Josh Gwynn: You are watching the Disney Channel. I think I won that round, Tracy, I'm sorry.
Tracy Clayton: I was going to say maybe we both won the round.
Josh Gwynn: Well, I think if I won that round, we got a tie. We both won the exercise.
Tracy Clayton: Okay. I can live with that. Great job. Formidable opponent.
Josh Gwynn: My hats off to you.
[29:43]
[Music Begins]
Tracy Clayton: So if you have been with us since the last segment, then you probably noticed that you did not hear the name En Vogue anywhere. And you're probably feeling a way about that.
Josh Gwynn: You're never going to get it.
Tracy Clayton: Oh my God.
Josh Gwynn: You're never going to get it. Drink every time I kill Tracy with a pun.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, everybody should be drunk by now. Everyone should be on the floor, under the table. Feels good though.
Josh Gwynn: Thank you.
Tracy Clayton: There's a reason that you did not hear En Vogue in the former segment. And it's because quite frankly, I wouldn't allow it. I was like, ‘Listen, what I'm not going to do is sit here and debate about En Vogue's greatness versus anybody in any era.’ It's just not going to happen because the truth is not to be disputed. And without them, the music that we listen to today would sound so different. But of course we couldn't have an entire episode without a proper amount of En Vogue perspect, sprinkled all up and through it.
Tracy Clayton: So, we decided to talk to Cindy from En Vogue. So after the break we are going to do just that and top two, Cindy Herron-Braggs of the one and only, En Vogue.
Josh Gwynn: So don't let go.
Tracy Clayton: Wow, it just keeps happening. [Josh Laughs] I hope you don't know no more En Vogue songs because I can't take it.
[Music Ends]
[MIDROLL BREAK]
[31:10]
Cindy Herron-Braggs: "This is the Bugs Bunny Show." Out.
Josh Gwynn: Yes, Cindy Herron-Braggs of En Vogue sat down with us and sang one of the first songs she ever harmonized to as a kid, the theme song for the bugs bunny show.
Tracy Clayton: Okay. A thing that I am dying to know, both because I am an En Vogue super fan and because I feel like every girl group story is so different, the way that they came together. We are really interested to know how En Vogue formed. Were y'all friends before who just sang all the time or was it an audition process? How did that happen?
Cindy Herron-Braggs: Well, it was an audition process. And the four of us all showed up on the same day. So I think it was destiny. It was meant to be, even though we were at an audition.
Tracy Clayton: I feel like there's this unfair narrative, thanks to misogyny, that girls just don't get along in girl groups, in the beauty shop, just anywhere. Girls just can't get along. So were you worried about how your personalities would mesh?
Tracy Clayton: Or since you all had been in each other's orbit, was it kind of like, "Oh, I kind of know y'all. It's going to be good. It's going to be fine."
Cindy: It was good in the beginning. And one of the reasons that they picked the four of us...our harmony and vocals just meshing together really well, the other thing they liked was how we interacted with each other. They liked the personality chemistry. They just felt like, "This is going to work."
Cindy: In fact, Terry, Max, and Dawn all got a house together and were roommates.
Tracy Clayton: No.
Cindy: And they got along great. And after Terry graduated from college, she moved to Oakland and they all got a house together. And she said it was great. Everybody was just bumping their music and singing, just walking through the house." Max braided hair. She would braid hair at the house.
Tracy Clayton: Oh my gosh.
Cindy: She said it was just music. And then she said it was so great. It was so great.
Josh Gwynn: Do you know what I would kill for? The Real World, En Vogue.
Tracy Clayton: Yes, yes!
Josh Gwynn: amazing? So then the image I was... I tried...
Cindy: Yes, yes.
Josh Gwynn: Amazing. So then the image, I was a child of the '90s and I always looked at En Vogue as this grown. I remember there's red dresses. Was that who you had come to be already, or was that the idea of this is what En Vogue is and you've had to find yourself within it?
Cindy: Well, when we had the vision of what our image was going to be, we want it to have a positive, inspiring image. We looked to many of the girl groups that had gone before us that carried themselves with class, that had music of substance, that were trendsetters. And so, we looked at The Supremes and The Emotions, and The Pointer Sisters, and the Jones Girls. We became a bit of a composite of all of those groups that we admired, and even artists like Natalie Cole, Chaka Khan. Then, we put together a glam squad who also had great vision, right? And then directors, when we would be looking at directors for our videos, because the song and the video bring everything to a whole nother level.
Cindy: And so, everybody had to be on the same page. Everybody had to have great artistic vision. We would pick people based on that. And really, it was what I would call lightning in a jar. And then also, the other thing I will say, when you brought up the red dresses, we were all really big fans of the first movie Sparkle. So, we got our inspiration. That's where our inspiration, that red gown, that came from the movie. In fact, a lot of our inspiration came from art that had already been established. My Lovin' (You're Never Gonna Get It), that was the movie Sweet Charity.
Tracy Clayton: Of course, it was. Oh, my gosh.
Cindy: Yeah. A lot of our inspiration came from art that had already been established and happened. We pulled from that. And our red Giving Him Something He Can Feel gowns are on display at The Smithsonian National Institute of African American History and Art.
[Tracy Gasps]
Josh Gwynn: Oh, as they should be.
Cindy: Thank you. While that was being built, the metal dresses from My Lovin' (You're Never Gonna Get It) were on display at The Smithsonian American Institute of American History and they might still be there. But definitely, the red dresses are on display and they will only display one at a time in order to make it last for however long they want to make it last.
Josh Gwynn: They don't want lights on all of them at the same time.
Cindy: Yes. And so, they'll rotate them so that they don't... Because over time, they're going to wear out. So, I'm really proud of that and I feel really, really undeserving. That is such a high honor.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah...
Tracy Clayton: Aww... I have been trying to find a gentle way to ask about,um, En Vogue's shakeups and folks coming in the group and leaving the group. I don't know. Maybe there's not a gentle way to ask, but, um, it seems to me that it would be terrifying to have this sisterhood that you depend on, like you're a group but you're also an army. You're each other's protection. To see that that may be changing or coming to an end, what did that feel like?
Josh Gwynn: What thoughts run through your mind?
Cindy: Obviously, the first thing I thought about was we are established as the four of us. The fans aren't going to accept this. How did we get here? It was all of that. And we just knew you can't keep somebody where they don't want to be. If they feel like they're ready to sprout their wings and grow, or do a solo deal or whatever, you can't keep a person where they don't want to be. At the same time, we had a contract to do a third album. We were all under contract and we needed to honor that contract. The record label said, ‘Look, we gotta, we got to lay down an ultimatum here. We want everybody to give up everything for the next two years to promote this album that we're pouring so much money into. We need all y'all to say yes or don't stay’. Well, for the three of us, we're like, ‘Okay, we're under contract.’ So, it's scary. It was scary. It was a whew.
Tracy Clayton: It's so interesting. As you look back on it, I can see the emotion in your eyes and just reliving and tapping into that emotion.
Cindy: Yeah. It was like, "What the heck?"
Josh Gwynn: Do they ever get music group's therapist? I'm wondering if the people in charge or the record labels ever cared enough to make sure that the maintenance of you guys's relationships were good.
Cindy: Boy, that is really a good idea.
Tracy Clayton: It sure is.
Cindy: No, but it was not offered to us. Let's get you guys all have a group therapist. Honestly, by the time Dawn was ready to do her solo project, I don't know if everybody would have gone to a group therapist. Right? But, I think that that is a smart thing. Like if I were, if I had a record company and I were going to sign a group, a guy or a girl group, one of the things built into the contract would be you have to agree to go to counseling if the relationship starts to suffer. It's like a marriage, like a premarital, right? If the relationship starts to suffer at the request of any member of the group, everybody has to be willing to attend group therapy. I think that's so great and so smart.
Josh Gwynn: Well, since you've lived it, say we have this new girl group, right, what is the other pieces of advice that you would give them when they're starting?
Cindy: I would say everybody agree to be in group therapy if things get shaky. But also, I would say everybody needs to always remember that everybody in the group has something special to bring to the table and we all have to be respectful of that. Build in your rest because rest is going to give you the chance to restore your energy so that you can go for the longevity. I would say we were advised very early on by our producers, Denzil Foster and Thomas McElroy, know your business.
[Music Begins]
Josh Gwynn: It seems like you guys were sure of your voice in both senses. I know that you've described En Vogue as a group without any lead singers. How do you think you guys were able to manage that? Is this dynamic normal? Because I feel like with most girl groups, there's usually one person that everyone focuses on. How were you able to split up the-
Cindy: Who sang what?
Tracy Clayton: Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Cindy: Well, when Denzil Foster and Thomas McElroy put the group together, they made it very clear there's not going to be one lead singer. We picked all of you because you all can hold a lead and that's what we want because that's not being done. And so, it'll give the group a lot of versatility and you won't be just following up in the typical girl group footsteps. And so, we all had the understanding that there would be not one single lead singer and we were cool with it. Really, when you're out performing live and doing concerts, it is such a relief to not have to carry a whole show. Because vocally, you get-
Josh Gwynn: Oh, right.
Cindy: ... fatigue. With everybody trading off singing lead, it really gives your vocal cords a rest and a break. And so, I think that we have better endurance to be booking all these shows and we didn't get worn out as easily vocally. So, it was actually, really a benefit.
Tracy Clayton: Speaking of that, a thing that our very scientific investigation is trying to answer is, where did all the girl groups go, right?
Josh Gwynn: As someone who has been in one of the most popular girl groups of all time, where do you think they went? There just doesn't seem to be the amount of girl groups out in the public as there was in the '90s and the '80s.
Cindy: I don't know that there's a market for it. When you're young female artist, because of the way this industry markets women, honestly, you're only marketable for a short amount of time as long as you are young and you keep yourself in shape. It can be a very tiring, draining industry for women, like the demand to be out on the road and traveling the world. And then sometimes, it's just like that, you really, really need a break and you get worn out. Sometimes, you can't take that break. I remember En Vogue, we did a show and we were a guest artist. Fifth Harmony was on there, too. At that time, they were really, really popular and they were just being pulled in every direction. It shows on them physically, mentally, emotionally, they just look so worn out to me. They were just trying to keep it together.
Tracy Clayton: Pulled in every direction, how?
Cindy: I just got back into town from London. Now, our tour starts tomorrow. But, I got to tape this television show today. We had to be up at 3:00 AM to start hair and makeup because taping starts at nine. It's like you're being pulled in so many directions and that's really what has to happen just to be number one. You can just be so physically and mentally drained that like I don't even know where I am today. What country am I in?
Tracy Clayton: Jeez.
Cindy: You don't have time for yourself. You don't have time to get adequate sleep. Because at first, especially when you're just on that rise to the top, everybody's not always thinking about they need eight hours of sleep you have rehearsals. You've got wardrobe fittings. It's just like so much on your plate. It's just a lot and it can just leave you worn out.
Josh Gwynn: I'm exhausted just thinking about that.
Tracy Clayton: I was just getting ready to say.
[Music Ends]
Josh Gwynn: I think in the last couple months, when we've all been in isolation and quarantine, one of the things, not even specific to girl groups, boy groups too, which I think that there's not as many of now, I just missed when people got together to sing. I miss group dance break and I miss all of that. I'm wondering if you think that'll ever come back.
Cindy: I do, because there's a magic about it.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Cindy: We go through trends, but there's a magic about a group. We saw it with Motown, with The Emotions, The Temptations, Diana Ross & the Supremes, and Smokey Robinson & The Miracles.
Tracy Clayton: Yes.
Cindy: Boy, groups were like the everything. Somehow, it works-
Josh Gwynn: Exactly.
Cindy:... because it's magic. When you can just make it happen and the music's good, it's magic. And so, I think there's definitely a place in American music just waiting for it to happen again. I definitely think there's a place.
Tracy Clayton:I'm so hopeful, I'm so hopeful.
Josh Gwynn: Would you guys ever do like a Verzuz, the IG Live, Apple Music thing?
Cindy: You know what? Maybe.
Josh Gwynn: I would live.
Tracy Clayton: Okay, okay. A question for you both, who would be on the other side? Who are we Verzuzing?
Cindy: Well, goodness. There are some girl groups that just had some good hits. When we are out touring, oftentimes, we are on the bill with SWV, TLC, and every once in a while, Salt-N-Pepa. When we stand on the side of the stage and watched their show, we're like, "Oh, my God, yay." We're just grooving. All the groups I've just mentioned have such a catalog like, whoa, such a ca... Even Boyz II Men, sometimes we were on the bill at Boyz II Men and we watched their show. We're like,-
Josh Gwynn: That's the one.
Cindy: ... "What?"
Josh Gwynn: That's the one I would watch.
Cindy: That might be the one, the male/female energy.
Tracy Clayton: I think you did it, I think you did it.
Cindy: Oh, my gosh, they got a catalog too.
Tracy Clayton:Oh, my gosh.
Josh Gwynn: That would be so fun.
Cindy: Yes, yes.
Tracy Clayton: I need it. I need it, I need it, I need it. Okay.
Cindy: That's a good one.
Tracy Clayton: We're going to pray to the gods that that happens.
Josh Gwynn: So, what are you up to now? I heard that you have a podcast.
Cindy: Yes, we do. It's called the Funky Divas Podcast. It's on Spotify and all the platforms where you can get a podcast. But, it's on the En Vogue YouTube channel. [Music Begins] So, we film them and then put the episodes up.
Tracy Clayton: Thank you. Thank you for everything you do.
Cindy: Thank you. Thank you.
[Music Fades]
[46:10]
[Learn Something From This Bounce Remix Plays]
Josh Gwynn: So Tracy.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: This is the part of the show where we channel Tyra Banks, take her advice, and..
[CLIP] Tyra Banks: Learn something from this!
Tracy Clayton:Did we learn something from this? Like, but did we?
Josh Gwynn: God, I wish we had that show, man.
Tracy Clayton: We're never going to get it. Now, how'd you like that? Well, one thing that we learned is that this En Vogue Boyz II Men Verzuz absolutely positively must happen.
Josh Gwynn: Has to happen!
Tracy Clayton: If it does not happen, I’m just gonna be so sad and upset and let down. I’m gonna do something dramatic, but nothing that will, like, hurt anybody, it’ll just annoy the people around me, because I’m just gonna be like, why does god keep doing this to me?? So if you want to save the sanity of all of my friends, this will happen.
Josh Gwynn: This is how we make it happen. We’re gonna start a change.org petition. It’s gonna have two articles.
Tracy Clayton: Okay,
Josh Gwynn: The first article: En Vogue Boyz II Men Verzuz. Timbaland. Swizz Beats. Make it happen. Second article. We need Last Chance: Girl Groups in our lives. Please bring it to, like, Disney Plus, Hulu, Netflix, somebody.
Tracy Clayton: It already exists. It’s out there, just give it to us. Just give it.
Josh Gwynn: We deserve it.
Tracy Clayton: We do! We been through a lot of shit.
Josh Gwynn: Okay!! I think we also learned that the magic that happens when people are singing together, it can't be replicated. Even in this era where everyone's separated and people are doing those collaborations where it looks like the Brady Bunch boxes...
Tracy Clayton: Right, and it's the same person singing all the harmonies.
Josh Gwynn: Mm-hm (affirmative).
Tracy Clayton: Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: Or even different people. It's still not the same as getting four people on stage, one singing the low part, one singing the high part, one person singing the lead, and one person singing the harmony. It's not the same.
Tracy Clayton: That's the real... It's like the difference between canned greens and fresh greens.
Josh Gwynn: Glory greens.
Tracy Clayton: Shout out to Glory greens. Come through for me and many [inaudible].
Josh Gwynn: Okay.
Tracy Clayton: But you're right. There's just this warmth and this just feeling and this sound. It doesn't just hit your eardrums. It just hits your entire body, like when there's a chorus of somebody singing. Speaking of, we also learned family bands have an added level of sauce and seasoning.
Josh Gwynn: That blend.
Tracy Clayton: The Braxtons, Wanya and his chiruns.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah, Wanya from Boyz II Men.
Tracy Clayton: Oh my gosh. It's just I don't want kids, but I want a family band, and I'm trying to work that out. So if y'all got some kids y'all can lease me for a little while from a distance... We'll work it out. We'll work it out. Tweet me.
Josh Gwynn: Mm-hm (affirmative). Mm-hm (affirmative).
Tracy Clayton: I also learned... I mean, this is nothing new. I've been reminded of the power of black women.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Tracy Clayton: One of my favorite things was this is first, second grade Tracy running up and down the street with her next door neighbors and looking at videos on the jukebox or listening to the radio is what we would have been doing and being like, "Ooh, Dawn, that's me. Cindy is me." You know what I mean? Just you had a picture of people that you wanted to be when you grew up, and they weren't white.
Josh Gwynn: Just the ability to look at one musical act and automatically have someone that you can identify with or you can be like, ‘I might not look like that person, but I look like that person or like that person. I love their outfits. I love the way that they handle themselves in interviews.’
Tracy Clayton: Right. Mm-hm (affirmative).
Josh Gwynn: That is so powerful. It's so powerful.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah, and it also teaches you that there are different types of black people out there.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah, we're not a monolith.
Tracy Clayton: You know, even with TLC, crazy, sexy, cool. There's a crazy one, there's a sexy one, there's a cool one.
Josh Gwynn: Also we learned Cindy said that these girl groups might come back.
Tracy Clayton: Right. She had hope. She was hopeful.
Josh Gwynn: She had hope, and that makes me hopeful. If it's good enough for Cindy from En Vogue...
Tracy Clayton: I remember hope.
Josh Gwynn: ... it's good enough for me.
Tracy Clayton: Good enough for me. Also speaking of Cindy from En Vogue, y'all couldn't see it, and of course appearances are not anything, they're not important...
Josh Gwynn: Unless you look like Cindy from En Vogue, because...
Tracy Clayton: Oh my gosh. Just she looks like sunshine came down to earth and was like, ‘Oh, snap, I need a human form to embody while I'm down here.’
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Tracy Clayton: And that gives me hope as a black woman, too, because I need to know that when I get older I might not look like a crumpled up grocery bag. I need to know it's possible.
Josh Gwynn: Shut up, Tracy.
Tracy Clayton: I'm just... I just want to know it's possible. That's it.
Josh Gwynn: I love that she gave us hope, because when you look out here, it's bleak.
Tracy Clayton: It really, really, really is.
Josh Gwynn: I miss that era.
Melissa: Josh and Tracy, can I butt in real quick?
Tracy Clayton: What a minute? Who was that?
Melissa: It’s Melissa from Pineapple Street Studios. I was eavesdropping and I have to butt in.
Josh Gwynn: Wait, why?
Melissa: You've goofed on this whole episode, because you've talked about girl groups but left a glaring gap. And that, my friends, is K-pop and J-pop.
[Music Begins]
Tracy Clayton: So I have a question. What's so different about the culture in Korea and Japan that has allowed for girl groups to keep thriving when we're over here just in a drought and thirsty and lost? What's the difference?
Josh Gwynn: It's dry.
Melissa: Unlike Western civilization where the trend of girl groups just come and go, South Korea and their entertainment industry has actually institutionalized them as part of their business. There are huge entertainment companies like YG, JYP, SM Entertainment who audition girls year round all for the sole purpose of creating girl groups. And then they pump out these new groups every season like it's fashion week and Miranda Priestly is sitting front row. As long as girl groups make money, they will continue to have this formula and continue to make them and market them just for you.
Josh Gwynn: Okay, okay, okay. So there's girl groups in K-pop and J-pop. Do they get made the same way?
Melissa: Young teenagers go to training centers throughout the country, and they train in dancing, singing, acting, they learn English, and then they eventually audition for these larger entertainment companies with the hopes that they'll be signed.
Tracy Clayton: Okay, so who are some K-pop girl groups that we should keep an eye out for?
Josh Gwynn: Yeah, hip us to game.
Tracy Clayton: I need to know more.
Melissa: You need to know Blackpink. They're the number one K-pop girl group, internationally known Blackpink in your area.
[CLIP] Blackpink: Blackpink in Your Area
Melissa: Other girl groups you should know are Twice, Red Velvet GFriend, And if you want to get kind of old school, and by old school I mean like 2011-style girl groups, you can listen to Girls Generation or 2NE1.
[CLIP] 2NE1: (singing). Oh my God.
Melissa: Neither of those groups really exist anymore. They're both on hiatus or they've broken up, but they're some of the original, quintessential K-pop girl groups.
Melissa: J-pop has a couple of different groups. Perfume is probably the most well known, and they performed at Coachella in 2019. And then there's also some offshoots. The one that I love is Baby Metal. They combine metal music with cutesy bubblegum pop.
[CLIP] Baby Metal: (singing).
Melissa: That, my friends, is K-pop and J-pop.
[CLIP] Baby Metal: (singing). [Applause[
Josh Gwynn: So I guess what you're saying is that the girl groups are still around? We're home? We've been home all along?
Tracy Clayton: We had the power in us the whole time. It was there.
Melissa: It was there on Spotify all along. Ok, I’ll leave y'all to it! Goodbye!
Josh Gwynn: Wow.
Tracy Clayton: That was really educational and informative, but I think we need better locks on our doors, or something, how did she get in here?
Josh Gwynn: Can we get the club?
Tracy Clayton: I’m concerned...
Josh: Okay. Okay. So the K-pop genre is holding it down for the girl groups. That's also hopeful. That gives me a lot of hope.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah. They're not gone, they've just changed, right?
Josh Gwynn: Yeah. And so all the girls that are out here practicing in their living rooms, practicing in their garages, singing at their mama's hair salon...
Tracy Clayton: Getting the two-steps together.
Josh Gwynn: ... getting the two-steps together, bring it now. Let's go.
Tracy Clayton: It's time. It is time.
Josh Gwynn: Bring them out, bring them out, bring them out, bring them out.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, oh, hey.
[54:44]
Tracy Clayton: Back Issue is a production of Pineapple Street Studios.
Josh Gwynn: This show was created and is hosted by Tracy Clayton...
Tracy Clayton:... and Josh Gwynn.
Josh Gwynn: Our lead producers...
Tracy Clayton: Our lead producers are Josh Gwynn... Wow, we've been a group for two minutes, and you are already singing my parts.
Josh Gwynn: This is your note. This is your note.
Tracy Clayton: I should've got a lawyer first. I'm going to sue you for something. Okay. Our lead producers are Josh Gwynn and Emmanuel Hapsis.
Josh Gwynn: Our managing producer is John Asante.
Tracy Clayton: Our senior editor is Leila Day.
Josh Gwynn: Our associate producer is Alexis Moore. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky.
Tracy Clayton: This show features music by Don Will. You can follow him on all the socials @DJDonWill, and you can follow me on the socials @BrokeyMcPoverty.
Josh Gwynn: And you can follow me @RegardingJosh. Subscribe to this podcast wherever free podcasts are sold. Tell everyone. Leave a five-star review.
Tracy Clayton: Mm-hm (affirmative).
Josh Gwynn: Hit us up on social media. It really does help.
Tracy Clayton: Okay, Josh, let's sing us out. You ready? Just follow my lead. Just follow my lead.
Josh Gwynn: Okay, okay, okay.
Tracy Clayton: (singing).
Josh Gwynn: (singing).
Tracy Clayton: Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: You can't hit a note like that, can you? Of course not.
Tracy Clayton: Bye.
Josh Gwynn: Tell Wanda and Andre it's getting it on.