BACK ISSUE
Remember How Glorious Black TV Was in the '90s? (Featuring TC Carson)
Bring It Back, TV Used To Be Hella Black
This week, in the first annual Blemmy Awards, Josh and Tracy look back on the Golden Age of Black TV and honor the best of the best, from the 'Amen' theme song to all of Khadijah’s boyfriends (*studio audience goes oooOooOoOOOOoo*). Then, Tracy sits down with TC Carson, the singer and actor known for playing Kyle on 'Living Single,' to discuss the show, that steamy "My Funny Valentine" scene, how important it is for Black creators to own their work, and more.
Additional Material By: Universal Studios, de Passe Entertainment / Paramount Network Television, ViacomCBS Domestic Media Networks, Warner Bros. Television Studios, CBS Corporation, ABC Television Distribution, Carsey-Werner Distribution, CBS Television Distribution, Winifred-Hervey Productions, Buena Vista Television, Variety Magazine, CW/Warner Bros. Production Music courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION
[0:00]
[Awards Show Fanfare]
Tracy Clayton: Friends, family, everyones, everyones, welcome to the first inaugural Black Nostalgia Awards. It's kind of like a backdated version of the Emmys, the Blemmy's, if you will. I know I will.
Josh Gwynn: Me too.
Tracy Clayton: We have a star-studded award show for you today. But instead of being hosted by boring and unfunny white men, it's hosted by me, Tracy Clayton.
Josh Gwynn: And me, Josh Gwynn. From In Living Color to Living Single, Moesha to My Wife and Kids. That was alliteration. Tracy, did you get it?
Tracy Clayton: Oh, it was. [Laughs]
Josh Gwynn: We are looking back at the best in black television at its peak.
Tracy Clayton: And here's where I make a corny awards show joke. [Both Laugh] How was that?
Josh Gwynn: I mean, it’s no Mo'Nique Crazy in Love performance at the 2004 BET awards, but it'll do.
Tracy Clayton: Completely fair criticism. I'm not mad. Let's get going.
Josh Gwynn: Let's go.
[1:02]
[Theme Begins]
[CLIP] Voice: Beyoncé ? You look like Luther Vandross.
[CLIP] Voice: Hoe, but make it fashion.
[CLIP] Voice: But you ain't heard that from me.
[CLIP] Voice: Fierce.
[CLIP] Voice: [Singing] Call him.'
[CLIP] Voice: Can't stop.
[CLIP] Voice: [Soft voices rising in background] You see, when you do clownery,
[CLIP] Voice: 'Cause we won't stop.
[CLIP] Voice: --the clown comes back to bite.
[CLIP] Voice: --Can't get no sleep cause ya'll--
[CLIP] Voice: --It's Britney, bitch.
[CLIP] Voice: Y'all not gonna get no sleep cause of me.
[CLIP] Voice: [Voices overlapping] We were rooting for you, Tiffany, we were all rooting for you... [Overlapping voices build into crescendo]
[CLIP] Single voice: Walls?
[CLIP] Single voice: Who said that?
Tracy Clayton: Welcome to Back Issue, a weekly podcast that revisits formative moments in pop culture that we still think about.
Josh Gwynn: This week, black television in the nineties and the early aughts, that's the 2000s for you guys who don't read, AKA the golden era of black TV.
[CLIP] Martin: That ain't no damn puppy.
[CLIP] Tia & Tamera: Go home, Roger.
[CLIP] Kel: Who loves orange soda?
[CLIP] Steve Urkel: Did I do that?
[CLIP]: Nikki Where you think you're going?
Kim: To a party.
Tracy Clayton: Each week we'll go back into the past and revisit unforgettable moments we all think we remember-
Josh Gwynn: And learn what they can teach us about where we are now.
Tracy Clayton: I'm Tracy Clayton.
Josh Gwynn: And I'm Josh Gwynn.
[Music Ends]
[2:16]
Josh Gwynn: In honor of a historic win by Zendaya at the Emmy's, this year had the most Black Emmy wins ever with 11 performers. Ain't that about a bitch.
Tracy Clayton: Embarrassing.
Josh Gwynn: And with the arrival of some of our favorite Blassics to Netflix, we wanted to take a moment to look back at the golden era of TV. Tracy?
Tracy Clayton: What?
Josh Gwynn: You know who we should talk to in order to get a good idea of what it was like to be young, gifted, and Black in the 90’s, during peak Black TV?
Tracy Clayton: Who?
Josh Gwynn: TC Carson
Tracy Clayton: Oh my gosh...
Josh Gwynn: TC Carson, AKA Kyle from living single. So, later in this episode we’re going to talk to TC about what it was like being a part of that cultural moment. But first, we’re going to hand out some awards to our faves from this era because they deserve.
Tracy Clayton:I love awards shows. Where’s the open bar, is there an open bar? [Josh Laughs] No? I hate awards shows. [Josh Laughs] So, for those of you who do not know, the nineties to the early aughts were a literal Renaissance for black television. You know, Josh, ABC, NBC and Fox initially led this aim towards the Black viewer to rating success. And then the creation of the WB in 1995 led to a landmark hub for black TV, along with UPN also in 1995.
Josh Gwynn: I am Connie Chung. [Both Laughs] There's so much about this era that we could talk about, but there's no way that we could talk about them all tonight.
Tracy Clayton: So we're putting them head to head and giving an award to the best of the best, and focusing on Blacks that comes specifically. Oh, I'm sorry, pacifically.
[Music]
Josh Gwynn: The first award of the night, category is best theme song. The nominees are, Amen.
Tracy Clayton: Turn on the light from heaven, Lord, if you please. A Different World
Josh Gwynn: (singing) Then where you came from!
Tracy Clayton: The Aretha version. We really need to specify.
Josh Gwynn: Not season one. And a nineties kind of world, I'm glad I got my girls, Living Single.
Tracy Clayton: My personal favorite. I don't know if I can say that as a host. All That.
Josh Gwynn: Ready yet, get set, the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, in West Philadelphia, born and raised. Am I right? [Josh laughs]And the winner is... Oh my gosh, these envelopes, they're so tricky to open.
Josh Gwynn: Don't Moonlight it.
Tracy Clayton: The theme song from Amen. Since the theme song from Amen could not be here tonight because it is a theme song and not a person, I will be accepting this award on its behalf. I had originally planned to sing a little bit of the song in tribute, but I have not had my warm sage juice yet so my vocal cards are really not ready. Instead, I would love to present the lyrics in a spoken word piece, if I may.
Josh Gwynn: Ashe.
Tracy Clayton: Thank you.Thank you.Thank you.Thank you.
[Beatnik music] "Turn on the lights from heaven, Lord. Shine on me. Turn on the lights from heaven, Lord. Shine on me." [Music Ends]
[CLIP] Amen Theme Song.
Josh Gwynn: Freedom.
Tracy Clayton: Ashe. Thank you. Thank you. And now the award for best Black mama on a TV sitcom. The nominees are: Phylicia Rashad, The Cosby Show. Just Phylicia though, not the Cosby guy.
Josh Gwynn: "Dang, momma." Monique, as Nikki Parker on The Parkers.
Tracy Clayton: That was a very good impersonation.
Josh Gwynn: "When we gon' go to the party?"
Tracy Clayton: Our next nominee is ... Jackée Harry as Lisa Landry on Sister, Sister.
Josh Gwynn: The next nominee is Sheryl Lee Ralph as Dee Mitchell on Mo to the, E to the, head toss, Moesha.
Tracy Clayton: Come on, head toss. I would also like to give her an award for those dimples, am I right? You could just swim in them. I should write terrible awards content, for real. And our final nominee is the renowned Black actress, Janet Hubert, as the Black Aunt Viv on Fresh Prince of Bel Air.
Josh Gwynn: You know, ever since she had that baby Nicky she looked different.
Tracy Clayton: We'll get more on that. We'll see about some paternity, maternity testing.
Josh Gwynn: And the winner is... Envelope, please. Phylicia Rashad as Clair Huxtable congratulations, Phylicia Rashad.
Tracy Clayton: Congratulations. If you saw the night of the wretched and you remember when Vanessa wanted to have big fun, you know why she won this award.
[CLIP] Phylicia Rashad (as Claire Huxtable): And you're down in Baltimore having big fun. Weren't you, Vanessa? Isn't that where you were? Didn't you go down there to Baltimore and have big fun, Vanessa? Tell me. Didn't you go for big fun?
Vanessa: Mom...
Phylicia Rashad: Shut up. Don't you dare open your mouth when I'm asking you a question.
Josh Gwynn: Clair Huxtable was the quintessential TV mom. The way that she read her children down, but then offered her children love.
Tracy Clayton: That is definitely the type of mom that I would seek to be, should I decide to bring children in this burning hellscape that we're currently living in, which I will not. Too much?
Josh Gwynn: No just enough. The next category: best fake song in a Black TV sitcom. The nominees are: When the Funk Hits the Fan.
Tracy Clayton: (singing) Smell like chitlins, grits and ham. Everybody get funky.
Josh Gwynn: The Steve Harvey Show.
Tracy Clayton: Young Ashley Banks with Make Up Your Mind from the Fresh Prince of Bel Air.
Josh Gwynn: That outfit she wore when she performed and Carlton and Will were dancing behind her, perfection. Has come back around, get me my size.
Tracy Clayton: My aesthetic to this very, very day.
Josh Gwynn: The last nominee for this category: We are the boys in motion. We give you heart devotion, heart devotion. That's So Raven.
Tracy Clayton: And you know the choreo to this day...
Josh Gwynn: I do.
Tracy Clayton: See how nostalgia just sticks with you, folks?
Josh Gwynn: And the winner is... Envelope, please. When the Funk Hits the Fan, The Steve Harvey.
[CLIP] When the funk hits the fan.
Josh Gwynn: And look, we have Steve Harvey to accept the award.
Tracy Clayton (as Steve Harvey): Hey, hey now, hey everybody now. All right, all right. I'm your man, Steve Harvey. Welcome to The Feud. How did, how did you get in my home studio? What is this? Who in the what?
Josh Gwynn: Mr. Hightower, you won the award for When the Funk Hits the Fan.
Tracy Clayton: That's a song that you was probably conceived to and y'all don't even know it. All right, we asked 87 wildebeest what is your favorite fake song? And the winner is me. All right, buy my new book, Women Don't Know Nothing. I got to go. All right, and moving on to our next-
Josh Gwynn: Wait. Tracy, when did you get back?
Tracy Clayton: Oh, just now. I had to go to the back and straighten up my wig. I felt like somebody came in like shifting it a little. You know like Sheree, Real Housewives?
Josh Gwynn: Joggers in the fall.
Tracy Clayton: She by Sheree. And our next award, category is ... best .... Ooh. Y'all know what we talking about. Like when the audience would do that. Y'all know what I'm talking about.
Josh Gwynn: When somebody fine came out on the set.
Tracy Clayton: Or just somebody famous. They didn't have to be cute really. Our first one is a cutie though. Our nominee, the one and only, Stefan Urquelle from Family Matters.
Josh Gwynn: The next nominee is Bumper Robinson from literally every show in the nineties.
Tracy Clayton: I just... This is a family show, right? I won't finish that sentence, but big fan of Bumper Robinson. Our next nominee is Soul Train legend, Shamar Moore, for his role on Living Single.
Josh Gwynn: Come on, body roll.
Tracy Clayton: Y'all, he did the slowest ass dance. It didn't matter what song was on.
Josh Gwynn:
Our next nominee is Usher on Moesha.
Tracy Clayton: They call him U-S-H-E-R R-A-Y-M-O-N-D. Now baby, tell me what you want to do with him. And our final nominee is actually multiple nominees, and they are all of Khadijah boyfriends from Living Single. All of them fine.
Josh Gwynn: Every single one.
Tracy Clayton: Every last one of them. Morris Chestnut.
Josh Gwynn: Bumper Robinson again.
Tracy Clayton: Grant Hill, Chris Williams. And that one man with the gray patch in the front of his head, I would like him for Christmas if anyone knows this number.
Josh Gwynn: Ooh.
Tracy Clayton: [Laughs] That was cute.
Josh Gwynn: And the winner is: Stefan Urquelle. That's french.
Tracy Clayton: It is french. It's french for Urkel. Not many people know that.
[CLIP] Stefan Urquelle: No, no, no, no, no. There is no Steve here. I'm Stefan, sweet thang.
Josh Gwynn: When Steve Urkel would hop into that port-a-potty and come out as Stefan Urquelle, I used to get my entire life.
Tracy Clayton: You know what? I am at a point of comfort with myself that I can say, I really wished that he had permanently became Stefan Urquelle. I don't respect the way that he stalked Laura as Steve.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah, that was a lot.
Tracy Clayton: But congratulations, Stefan.
[Somber Music Begins]
Josh Gwynn: Friends and family, we'd like to dedicate the next part of the show to the moments lost in time.
Tracy Clayton: Dearly beloved, friends and family, pastor, members and friends. We would like to take a moment to celebrate the moments that we cherished that have now gone on to glory.
Josh Gwynn: The moments that made us laugh, the moments that got us through.
Tracy Clayton: The moments that we are not never going to forget because they meant so much.
Josh Gwynn: And please hold your applause to the very end, because it's respectful.
Tracy Clayton: Right, and this is not a black graduation where the principal is always like, "Okay, hold your applause to the end," and then everybody's like, "Fuck that. Little Ron, Nisha graduated. I'm going to clap if I want to." I get it. Not the place for it.
Josh Gwynn: Aunt Viv's dance to C+C Music Factory's “Gonna Make You Sweat.”
Tracy Clayton: That time that Jodeci see was on Martin, and Martin went crazy and just started going ‘hoo yeah’
[CLIP] Martin Jodeci on Martin
Various Members of Jodeci: hoo yeah. hoo yeah. hoo yeah. hoo yeah.
Josh Gwynn: That time that Biggie was on Martin, and Pam swag walked across Martin's apartment because Biggie was on Martin.
[CLIP] Martin
Pam: Wassup Biggie?
Biggie Smalls: What’s Up?
Pam: You know, I just came over to say hellow to my girlfriend Gina. How bout I call her? (singing) Ginaaaaaaa. What’s Up??
Tracy Clayton: The way that Countess Vaughn "Party."
Josh Gwynn: The journey of discovery the Essence Atkins and Rachel True were on in finding you and find me on Half and Half.
Tracy Clayton: The jingle for Playing White Rice that Jamie Foxx wrote on the Jamie Fox Show. Plain white rice, plain white rice.
[CLIP] The Jamie Foxx Show
Jamie: Plain White Rice Jingle Always on point when your money ain’t right, oh yeah.
Nicole: And it’s tasty in the morning, but it’s better at night hooo.
Jamie: It’s good at a wedding when you throw it at your wife.
Josh Gwynn: It's with us in our hearts.
Tracy Clayton: And finally, we would like to celebrate the life of a TV channel taken from this world too soon. The Lord said, "I'm short on angels, I'ma need all of them.", Of course we are talking about the one and only UPN, which gave us all of the black comedy that we needed and some that we did not, and that nobody asked for, from 1995 until 2006. I a m looking at you Homeboys in Outer Space. I'm just going to say, what was you doing?
Josh Gwynn: I mean, what other channel could name a show Eve after the rapper but name her character Shelly and get away with it. UPN, that's who. That's how deep our love went for this channel. That's how deep our love still goes for this channel.
Tracy Clayton: 14 years later, we are still up towards the heavens and saying, "Why, Lord? Why has thou taken this mine favoritest shows from me?" We salute you, moments of black television. And although you've already gone up to yonder, there is always the streaming services to keep your memory alive. You got your ticket and I just hope you saved me a seat, and I'll see you when I get there.
[Somber Music Ends, Joyful Music Begins]
Tracy Clayton: And now for our final category of the night slash podcast episode, friends and family, this is the Blackity Black lifetime achievement award, known also as the Blifetime achievement award.
Josh Gwynn: Blifetime achievement award goes to one of Fox's most successful shows of all time. Susan Shields in Variety in 1995 said, "Best aspects of this show are the chemistry of the six, the warm apartment setting, and the fun often physical humor. Within these confines, characters let down their hair and find new heights of ridicule, insult, and ever so often tenderness." And no, she was not talking about Friends. She was talking about Living Single. [Tracy:Mmmm Mmm Mmm Mmm] Tracy, can I tell you why we should give the Blifetime achievement award to Living Single?
Tracy Clayton: You don't have to tell me why because I'm on board, but perhaps our audience would like to hear why.
Josh Gwynn: Okay, so, when I was watching Living Single, it was just one of the most aspirational shows ever. I wanted to be one of these people. I wanted to live in a brownstone with three of my friends, where everyone had the perfect fashions. If anyone can mail me Khadijah's entire wardrobe, I would say thank you.
Tracy Clayton: And mail me her boyfriends. I would also say thank you.
Josh Gwynn: You had Regine, you had Khadijah, you had Synclaire, but probably the most impactful on my life was Maxine.
Tracy Clayton: Maxine Shaw, Ride the Maverick.
Josh Gwynn: The way that she and Kyle would read each other, and her confidence that she had in herself. You could not tell Maxine anything about herself that she didn't already either accept, know, or disagree with and was fine with. She was totally fine walking up in they house, eating they food. But one of my favorite episodes was when Maxine takes all of this confidence and uses it to run for office. She has a campaign slogan that's, "Ride the Maverick."
Tracy Clayton: John McCain stole that from her.
Josh Gwynn: I'm just saying.
Tracy Clayton: May I also mention one of my favorite Living Single moment?
Josh Gwynn: Please.
Tracy Clayton: That scene where Kyle sings My Funny Valentine to Max.
[CLIP] Living Single TC Carlson Singing: Everyday is Valentines Day!
Tracy Clayton: Llight some candles, call your boo, or have somebody to send an inappropriate text to afterwards, because it was a steamy scene.
Josh Gwynn: That's just a really great song. But Kyle singing it on top of that?
Tracy Clayton: Yeah. Them cheekbones? Skin just glistening.
Josh Gwynn: Mmm. Mmm. So, Living Single, this lifetime achievement award is for you.
[Applause]
[Music Begins]
Tracy Clayton: Living Single truly changed my entire life. So, we tracked down the one and only TC Carson, who, of course, played Kyle Barker on the show, to talk to him about what it was like to be on the show, what it was like to film that scene where he sang My Funny Valentine to Max, how important it is for Black creatives to own their own work, and so, so much more. Now Josh, you already know how deep my love for the entire cast, and this man in particular goes. You already know.
Josh Gwynn: Yeah, I think we all know. I think we all know.
Tracy Clayton: And you also know of my love of chickens, right? I’m assuming. Have we met?
Josh Gwynn: I knew you were a bird.
Tracy Clayton: Ummm, you know what? That, I will allow that because, I do have a daughter who is a chicken, okay.
Josh Gwynn: Who lives with Melissa Harris Perry.
Tracy Clayton: Her name is Tracy Jr., and she is perfect, okay? And she looks just like her mom. So if that means I’m a bird, then cock-a-doodle-doo. Wait, that’s a rooster.
Josh Gwynn: [Laughs] I think it means you’re the chicken whisperer.
Tracy Clayton: See me know me, this is my story, this is my title. So, if it’s cool with you, I would like to own this interview.
Josh Gwynn: I think that’s only fair.
Tracy Clayton: Thank you for being agreeable. Wow.
Josh Gwynn: Thank you for being a friend.
[Both Laugh]
Tracy Clayton: Aww. So, I called TC Carson on Zoom to talk about all things Living Single and 90’s Black TV excellence. And when you hear those chickens in the background, know that I was holding back tears because I was so commotional, and I also just wanted to start talking about chickens. So everybody, you’re welcome.
Josh Gwynn: This is about to be something. Let’s get into it, after the break.
[20:56] - [INTERVIEW]
Tracy Clayton: I am dying to know... I know what it was like to consume media and TV back then, but what was it like to be a black creative, a black actor working in the business when there seems to be just an abundance of blackness on TV and black jobs?
T.C. Carson: It was great to be working. I come from theater, so to wind up on a syndicated show was just like a dream of mine. I really was playing catch-up most of the time, just trying to make sure that I was able to dance the dance you have to dance in order to be where you are, you know?
Tracy Clayton: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).
T.C. Carson: It felt good to be working. It felt good to be doing something that resonated with my community. And my mom was proud, so everything was good. We really were working to portray images for our community that we hadn't seen. That was, I think, the goal for everybody once we realized that we were doing something that could be important. You know, and then when people started explaining what they saw, then you realize, "Oh wow, we're actually a voice in our community that needs to be heard."
Tracy Clayton: What did that feel like?
T.C. Carson: It still feels amazing. It still feels amazing to have a young man come up and say, "I went to college because of you or I studied stocks because of you." I learned how to really talk to women because of what Kyle did. So to understand that the work we did helped to shape a culture, that importance never gets lost on you. It's always amazing to me whenever somebody comes up and says something to me, I'm like, "wow, that's cool. Okay."
Tracy Clayton: Did you and the other cast mates know each other before Living Single?
T.C. Carson: I think Kim and Queen knew each other, Kim Coles. I'm not sure if Erica and Kim Fields knew each other. I mean, of course we all knew her from Cosby Show and the other things she did.
Tracy Clayton: Right. Right.
T.C. Carson: But I didn't know anybody. She was actually the first person I met, was Erika.
Tracy Clayton: a.k.a one of my idols. It's one of my favorite relationships in black TV, possibly ever. I hate just a little bit the will they/won't they thing in sitcoms and movies. I'm just like "Y'all there's… you could invent another character, like, you don’t have to do all of this just for whatever," But Kyle and Max, I was just like, "This is different." There was something about the tension and the push and the pull and the banter. That was really, really amazing. And what I love about this is that you refer to each other, I may be getting this wrong, but as entertainment soulmates. Like, y'all just clicked instantly, right?
T.C. Carson: Yeah, we did, from the moment I met her. It was just like, we knew each other, and then we found out we were both born on November 19th. Same day. It was just an unspoken language that we had with each other that I think translated into what people saw. And come on, I got a chance to on TV date Maxine Shaw.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah. Not too shabby, not too shabby at all.
T.C. Carson: And such a really sweet and giving person and actor. I- Like you said, my partner. I mean, it was a dance that we did and it was a really wonderful time.
Tracy Clayton: So, I really loved, and still loved, with Living single, that you get those moments of Blackness, you get those moments of representation and duty, but you also get these moments that are just fun, and hilarious and funny, and everybody that I know would beat my ass if I did not bring up the time that Kyle sang my Funny Valentine to Maxine Shaw. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I think that was the moment when I was like, "That's the kind of relationship that I want." Everybody wanted to be like Dwayne and Whitley or Martin and Gina, but I was like, "No, this, this is the thing, It's just the tension." Also, I have trouble [laughs] I have trouble emoting and showing my feelings to people, and so what I do is I just come out with little jabs, right? So it was I understood and I could interpret the love language. And I feel like that scene where she's trying not to break, ugh, as an adult it resonates with me so much more.
T.C. Carson: I think it was a moment where they weren't really cognizant on what I could really do. So the singing episode, "Oh, he sings? Okay, we'll do the singing episode." I brought in my band. Even as we were doing it, I think they were like, "Wow, this is not what we expected." [Tracy:Mhmm] I know that Erika was fully invested in the moment, so the things that she was doing were not scripted to do. But this was her being where she was in the moment and our relationship being what it was with-between the two of us. And her doing what she was doing sparked me to do more of what I was doing on stage, because we were having a conversation. I love that girl, yeah.
[Music]
Tracy Clayton: So, I actually had the privilege of interviewing Queen Latifah on another podcast some years ago. She admitted pretty much that the concept for Friends was completely lifted from Living Single. I was just like, "Oh my gosh, I knew it. I knew it. I knew it." When you first heard of Friends and saw Friends, what was the response?
T.C. Carson: Well, we knew it was our show. We knew it. When we heard it was out, we knew what it was. But I mean, they were both produced by Warner Brothers. The company saw that the formula worked and they did it again. That's all. We continue to look to someone else to hold our stories as true and hold our stories as who we are. We continue to ask somebody else to do it, and they're not going to do it. Why are we not doing it? And that's what's happening now. We're starting to hold the narrative for our stories. We're starting to be able to say, "No, this show is going to stay on." Back then it, we were a commodity. When you look at how many black shows were on... Look at Fox. Fox built its reputation on us. If we keep asking someone else to be the keeper of those stories, they're going to do with them as they please, because it is their property. So until we start owning our property, until we start owning our artistic expression, we're not going to be able to see what we want to see. At this point, I'm all with holding the powers that be accountable and making them do better, [Tracy:Yes] but I look at what are we doing for us? We have so much, yet our communities are still bereft of things. But we, as a people in this country, we got a lot of money. We got a lot of power and a lot of influence. What happens if we start turning those things back to our neighborhoods, back to our people? Not in dislike of somebody else, it ain't got nothing to do with nobody else. It’s all about us. And that should be okay.
[Music Ends[
Tracy Clayton: I feel like that's a question that we have been asking internally for so long, like "When are we going to just turn inward and turn towards each other... "Excuse me, "to give ourselves the recognition and the validation and the awards that we deserve versus fighting and clawing to get to that Emmy or to that Oscar?" This is a big question, but why do you think that is? Why do you think it hasn't happened yet? Or why is it just now starting to happen, because, you know, there’s Tyler Perry, and he’s doing what he can with his studio, and I feel like there's a change starting, [TC:Absolutely] but why do you think it's taken so long?
T.C. Carson: We have to remember that every system in this country was set up not for us. So we keep trying to excel in systems that were not built for us to excel in. We're starting to understand that our dollar is king. So when we start to, again, understand what we need and then service us, then we're going to start winning.
Tracy Clayton: This conversation reminds me so much of the Living Single episode where Kyle... I almost said you, you were up for promotion. Kyle was up for a promotion and he refused to change his hair.
T.C. Carson: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy Clayton: And, for our listeners listening I wish you could see - you look like Kyle would look, I think, if the show was still on today. Like the beaded necklace, this crisp, beautiful turtleneck, like. How much of Kyle's personality, that strain of his personality, the Afro-centrism, being pro-black and standing up for himself, how much of that was written into the character, and how much of that did you yourself bring?
T.C. Carson: Um, I think it was something that I brought in one day. And because it really resonated with me, they saw how I normally dressed, they started looking at the character and realizing that the way he looks could be a statement. And so we made an effort to make sure that I was wearing black designers, African designers. Uh, because we wanted to, we wanted to showcase that.
Tracy Clayton: Ok so speaking of the episode where Kyle refuses to change his hair. As I was reading about your exit from the show, it made me think of that scene again. I read that your exit was prompted by a disagreement, let's say, with the writers. You said once that you were a little "too black and strong." What does that mean? What happened?
T.C. Carson: You have to understand, it's 20 years ago. And, you know, after I went to Africa, I came back, and I was wearing my garb. I was, you know, I was very much about who we are. But we had several incidences during our tenure on the show, where we had to, you know, management had to be called in. And when we would have issues, I would be the spokesperson for the group. And when the powers that be, when they see that, then they look at you as the troublemaker. If we let you go, then that’ll put -they'll understand that we ain't playing. But I don't regret anything I fought for on that show. I really don't. [Tracy: Yeah]I know that the things we fought for made that show better, made it what it is.
Tracy Clayton: What were some of the things you fought for?
T.C. Carson: Just about how they portrayed myself and Overton in the beginning. We fought about food sometimes, sometimes we didn’t have, the writing was, we needed more, and we would ask. It’s not about what the things were, it's about, "How dare you. Tou should be happy you got a job." And we, we were very happy. We had jobs. Everybody was extremely happy. Shit, I hadn't made that much money in my life. So that wasn't it. But we also knew that we had a responsibility and of what we were betraying, the people we were portraying.
[Music Begins]
Tracy Clayton: Living Single and Martin, it's comfort food for me now, especially as, my God, everything that's happening in the world right now. My family is from Louisville, which is where Breonna Taylor unfortunately was murdered. The things that trauma does to your brain and your body, I don't think people understand. And so like, it’s it's this content that is literally helping to keep me healthy, and it makes it able for me to do my job. Why do you think this return to this content is happening right now?
T.C. Carson: Because we’re so inundated with the negativity. And in between the things on TV, you get all these negative ads about - this political person doesn’t like this person, so this. Everybody’s bad, there’s no joy. And when you can give people something that will make them remember some joy, then that's why this stuff is important right now. Because we’re fed all the negativity. And the trauma is real. Trauma is not just what you see right here, trauma is internal. We are living with trauma from slavery. [Tracy:Absolutely] It's in our DNA. Until we start understanding that and understanding how to fix that for us, we're going to be running around like this. But that’s it's in us, you can't deny it. We always have a choice. Always have a choice. Even when stuff is not going well, then make another choice. That’s the thing that God has given us. Choice. So choose to be happy people. I am.
Tracy Clayton: Hey! Amen. Amen and Amen. Um, I am so sad to have to let you go. Um, this is just a joy. I feel like when it comes to saying thank you, I just turn into a big puddle of mush. But I mean you've been a part of my life for a long time. So it's a pleasure, a pleasure to meet you and laugh with you. Where can people find you and your work?
T.C. Carson: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. You can hit me on my Instagram, which is officialtccarson. My YouTube page is TC Carson, Twitter and Facebook are also TC Carson.
Tracy Clayton: Thank you again, And please tell the chickens and the roosters I said, hi. I know you don't love them, but, I like them.
T.C. Carson: I will.
[Tracy Laughs]
[Music Ends]
[34:24] LEARN SOMETHING FROM THIS
[Learn Something From This Bounce Remix Plays]
Tracy Clayton: We have now come to that part of the party where we try to make Tyra Banks proud and learn something from this. Did we...
[CLIP] Tyra Banks: Learn something from this.
Josh Gwynn: I think I did learn something from this.
What did you learn?
So, I was eavesdropping on you and TC. You know I couldn’t stay away too far.
Meddlin Meddlin.
That was my show too, I loved that show.
That’s true.
But, he said something in y’all’s conversation that just stuck out to me, especially in these times.
Mhmm.
He said when you are the person to speak out about injustice about something that’s wrong for a group of people, you’re seen as the instigator, and as the problem.
Yes, yes yes. That put a lot of, like, my life into perspective. Not to make it about me or anything but, you know. I’ve been in that
This era in TV being so black was so great, because one, because it was so black, which is why it was so funny.
Tracy Clayton: Duh.
Josh Gwynn: But also, I feel like in the nineties, there were so many black shows that we have the right to not like some of them.
Tracy Clayton: Yes, yes. It was not like when Red Tails came out and everybody knew that it was not a good movie. But everybody was like, "If you don't support Red Tails, you not for the movement." It's a bad movie. And I don't have a lot of money.
Josh Gwynn: Did you like Homeboys in Outer Space?
Tracy Clayton: No. And I didn't watch it.
Josh Gwynn: Did you feel guilty?
Tracy Clayton: No, because there was so much else to support and so much other shows to like.
Josh Gwynn: Do you know How freeing that is?
Tracy Clayton: It's so nice to be able... It's almost like we get to be regular humans.
Josh Gwynn: Oh. Wow.
Tracy Clayton: Right? How about that?
Josh Gwynn: I think that any time that there's one of us out there that ends up having to represent every single black experience at one time. It becomes really difficult, because it's impossible. There's no way for one person to represent every experience. I remember when Tyler Perry had made the transition from those church plays that your grandma got from...
Tracy Clayton: From the hair shop?
Josh Gwynn: Mm-hmm (affirmative), in the hair shop. And starting to making movies in the theater. And a lot of people, me included, were not excited about a lot of the content that was coming out. But there were a lot of Black people that were excited about the content that was coming out. Flash forward to him being a billionaire now, him having that huge ass studio in Atlanta that's like half of Atlanta. And I think that that is the goal. We should be able to disagree on a TV show and disagree whether something is good or not. That is what freedom is.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah. And between you and I, I probably won't name them, which serves as an example of what you were just saying, but there are some shows that people love and I'm just like," I don't see it at all." I'm not going to say what they are.
Josh Gwynn: But the pressure that you have right now in not saying what they are is the pressure that we have in order to support Black artists, because of how we all know how hard it is. We all know the barriers that they run into. We all know what it's like to be the only in a room. So we get behind these different people, but what true freedom is, is the ability to like what you like and it be removed from politics.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah, just being able to exist without having to worry about the white gaze. Are white people watching? Are white people going to take something that I say or do and turn it around as permission for them to say or do something wild? Am I writing these characters in a way that appeases white people and whiteness? It doesn't matter. It didn't matter with Martin. It didn't matter what In Living color. And that is so important.
Josh Gwynn: And it doesn't even just stop there. It's like, James Baldwin talked about the burden of the Black artist and how you have to be a constant representation for your race within your work. That's not something that white artists do. White artists make fucking shows like Seinfeld where the tagline is this is a show about nothing. Do Black people ever get to do that?
Tracy Clayton: No.
Josh Gwynn: Ever.
Tracy Clayton: What is the deal with racism?
Josh Gwynn: But on a positive note, when we look back to this era of black television and we look at the landscape now, we can see how far we've come as a culture. We talked about in the In Living Color episode, how I felt as a child watching men on film, and how there's that gay, queer, black blind spot within representation, especially in the nineties. But that's not true anymore. It's not as true anymore.
There's this episode of Moesha, in which Hakeem's cousin is going on a date with Moesha, this very femme, queer man meets up with them, Moesha sees them and is like, "Oh, I think Hakeem's cousin is gay." And then the onus within the rest of the episode is like, "Why won't you tell the truth? Why won't you come out and be yourself?"
Tracy Clayton: That sucks.
Josh Gwynn: Instead of how hard it is within that context to be authentically you. You know what I mean?
Tracy Clayton: Yeah.
Josh Gwynn: But if you look at shows like Pose, True Blood. Oh, I loved Lafayette. If you look at Queen Sugar, if you look at Dear White People, if you look at P-Valley, you see black queerness expressed in a way that may not have happened in the nineties, maybe it would have been the butt of the joke in the nineties, but today it's the...
Tracy Clayton: Head of the joke?
Josh Gwynn: Yeah.
Tracy Clayton: Yeah, those are good points. I like that because it talks about looking back as a way to find comfort in today. Because when you do that, you can see how far we've come. Like I be saying, it's good when comedy and when art does not age well because it means that we have aged well, we've aged better, which is good. Another comfort that I get in looking back and revisiting the stuff that I used to love, it really helps to see that history repeats itself.
Josh Gwynn: Absolutely.
Tracy Clayton: For better, for worse. Progress is slow.
Josh Gwynn: Who you telling?
Tracy Clayton: Progress happens by taking two steps forward and one step back. So a pattern that I see, is that as we socially go through these moments of progress and great political change, and then it's followed by a regression and great political strife. The same thing happens with the art that we make.
Right now we are in the strife area of things. And I think this era is going to come back again. I know there's a lot of great new black art and black shows on TV now, but I feel like we are bound to revisit that time where there's just so much out there that we can like what we like and not like what we don't like. Because I do kind of, sort of still feel like so much black art right now is political and it has to be.
Josh Gwynn: It has to be.
Tracy Clayton: I'm in a situation though where I don't want it. I just want stuff that I can zone out to. I don't want to watch stuff about racism and strife and hard times. And so that's a hurdle for me to get over right now.
Josh Gwynn: But that's a hurdle for artists too. Like if you watched the BET awards, there was this performance from DaBaby, And he started the performance underneath the boot of a police officer.
Tracy Clayton: Oh, Lord.
Josh Gwynn: And it's like, "DaBaby, all I need is a bop."
Tracy Clayton: All I need is something with some bop in it.
Josh Gwynn: Hey. But that external pressure to make political art is something that's real that creators feel.
Tracy Clayton: Precisely. And I think that we will return to a time where we can just be us and be a little more free in the way that you defined it, and just be goofy and laugh at Martin being dumb and stupid because that's what he's here for.
Josh Gwynn: I think that's the goal.
Tracy Clayton: Back Issue is a production of Pineapple Street Studios.
Josh Gwynn: This show was created and is hosted by Tracy Clayton.
Tracy Clayton: Hey, that's me. And it's also created and hosted by Josh Gwynn.
Josh Gwynn: That's me.
Tracy Clayton: Our lead producers are Josh Gwynn and Emmanuel Hapsis.
Josh Gwynn: Our managing producer is John Asante.
Tracy Clayton: Our senior editor is Leila Day. Special thanks to Gabrielle Young.
Josh Gwynn: Our Associate producer is the mysterious Alexis Moore. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky.
Tracy Clayton: This show features music by the one and only, Donwill. You can follow him on the socials @djdonwill, and you can follow me on the socials @brokeymcpoverty.
Josh Gwynn: And you can follow me @regardingjosh. Subscribe to this podcast wherever free podcasts are sold. And if you think we missed any awards, tweet it to us, put it on our Instagram.
Tracy Clayton: We would love to see it.
Josh Gwynn: You can follow the show @backissuepodcast on Instagram, and you can follow the conversation at #backissuepodcast on Twitter.
Tracy Clayton: And I think that's that . We've got an after show to go to. Is that what they do after award shows? When they get drunk and break stuff because we're celebrities who never get in trouble. Isn't that how award shows work?
Josh Gwynn: I think so, I think so.
Tracy Clayton: Okay, let's go see. Bye, y'all.
Josh Gwynn: Bye.
Tracy Clayton: You are of the devil. Give me my award, I got to go.
=======
TC CARSON INTERVIEW
Tracy (00:00):
One of the things that we talk about on the show a lot is the '90s and what we call the golden era of black television, because there were so many black shows on at the same time. There was Martin, Living Single, which was my favorite hour of television every single week. I am dying to know... I know what it was like to consume media and TV back then, but what was it like to be a black creative, a black actor working in the business when there seems to be just an abundance of blackness on TV and black jobs?
T.C. Carson (00:32):
It was great to be working. I come from theater, so I really was playing catch-up most of the time, just trying to make sure that I was able to dance the dance you have to dance in order to be where you are, you know?
Tracy (00:45):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).
T.C. Carson (00:47):
It felt good to be working. It felt good to be doing something that resonated with my community. And my mom was proud, so everything was good.
Tracy (00:55):
Oh, that is my goal in life, I just want my mama to be proud. I feel that so deeply. The show from what I understand was a hit almost immediately. Did anybody expect that?
T.C. Carson (01:10):
No, we didn't. But once it hit, we realized what we were part of.
Tracy (1:14)
Mmmmm.
We really were working to portray images for our community that we hadn't seen. That was, I think, the goal for everybody once we realized that we were doing something that could be important. And then when people started explaining what they saw, then you realize, "Oh wow, we're actually a voice in our community that needs to be heard."
Tracy (01:39):
What did that feel like being the voice for-
T.C. Carson (01:41):
It still feels amazing. It still feels amazing to have a young man come up and say, "I went to college because of you or I studied stocks because of you." I learned how to really talk to women because of what Kyle did. So to understand that the work we did helped to shape a culture, that importance never gets lost on you. It's always amazing to me whenever somebody comes up and says something to me, I'm like, "wow, that's cool. Okay."
Tracy (02:13):
Did you and the other cast mates know each other before Living Single?
T.C. Carson (02:18):
Kim and Queen knew each other, Kim Coles. I'm not sure if Erica and Kim Fields knew each other. I mean, of course we all knew her from Cosby Show and the other things she did.
Tracy (02:30):
Right. Right.
T.C. Carson (02:31):
But I didn't know anybody. She was actually the first person I met, was Erika.
Tracy (02:36):
Oh, Erika, of course, was Max, a.k.a one of my idols. It's one of my favorite relationships in black TV, possibly ever. I hate just a little bit the will they/won't they thing in sitcoms and movies. I'm just like "Y'all... " But Kyle and Max, I was just like, "This is different." There was something about the tension and the push and the pull and the banter. That was really, really amazing. And what I love about this is that you refer to each other, I may be getting this wrong, but as entertainment soulmates. Y'all just clicked instantly, right?
T.C. Carson (03:14):
Yeah, we did, from the moment I met her. It was just an unspoken language that we had with each other that I think translated into what people saw. And come on, I got a chance to on TV date Maxine Shaw, she's beautiful.
Tracy (03:30):
I mean listen. Yes.
T.C. Carson (03:30):
She's beautiful, come on.
Tracy (03:34):
Yeah. Not too shabby, not too shabby at all.
T.C. Carson (03:38):
Not at all. Not at all. And such a really sweet and giving person and actor. Like you said, my partner. I mean, it was a dance that we did and it was a really wonderful time.
Tracy (03:50):
Everybody that I know would beat my ass if I did not bring up the time that Kyle sang my Funny Valentine to Maxine Shaw. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I think that was the moment when I was like, "That's the kind of relationship that I want." Everybody wanted to be like Dwayne and Whitley or Martin and Gina, but I was like, "No, this, this is the thing, It's just the tension." Also, I have trouble emoting and showing my feelings to people, and so what I do is I just come out with little jabs, right? So it was I understood and I could interpret the love language. I feel like that scene where she's trying not to break, as an adult it resonates with me so much more. That scene, was it scripted that way? Is this another instance of great improv?
T.C. Carson (04:44):
I think yes and yes. Some things were scripted, but I think it was a moment where they weren't really cognizant on what I could really do. So the singing episode, "Oh, he sings? Okay, we'll do the singing episode." I brought in my band. Even as we were doing it, I think they were like, "Wow, this is not what we expected." I know that Erika was fully invested in the moment, so the things that she was doing were not scripted to do. But this was her being where she was in the moment and our relationship being what it was, [inaudible 00:05:23] between the two of us. Her doing what she was doing sparked me to do more of what I was doing on stage, because we were having a conversation. Again, that's what happens when you work with somebody who you really know and who you care about. I love that girl. I love that girl, yeah.
Tracy (05:42):
This conversation reminds me so much of the Living Single episode where Kyle... I almost said you, you were up for promotion. Kyle was up for a promotion and he refused to change his hair.
T.C. Carson (05:55):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tracy (05:56):
How much of Kyle's personality, that strain of his personality, the Afro-centrism, being pro-black and standing up for himself, how much of that was written into the character, and how much of that did you yourself bring?
T.C. Carson (06:11):
I think it was something that I brought in one day. And because it really resonated with me, they saw how I normally dressed, they started looking at the character and realizing that the way he looks could be at stake, the way he looks on screen. And so we made an effort to make sure that I was wearing black designers, African themes. We reached out to black designers and African designers to send stuff, because we wanted to showcase that.
Tracy (06:41):
As I was reading about your exit from the show, it made me think of that scene again. I read that your exit was prompted by a disagreement, let's say, with the writers. You said once that you were a little "too black and strong." What does that mean? What happened?
T.C. Carson (07:02):
You have to understand, it's 20 years ago. After I went to Africa, I came back, and I was wearing my garb.I was very much about who we are. It wasn't really about that. But we had several incidences during our tenure on the show, management had to be called in. And when we would have issues, I would be the spokesperson for the group.
Tracy (07:25):
Oh, wow.
T.C. Carson (07:26):
The powers that be, when they see that, then they look at you as the troublemaker. So you're the person-
Tracy (07:32):
Yep, they sure do.
T.C. Carson (07:33):
... that is starting all of this. If we let you go, then they'll understand that we ain't playing. But I don't regret anything I fought for on that show. I really don't. I know that the things we fought for made that show better, made it what it is.
Tracy (07:47):
What were some of the things you fought for?
T.C. Carson (07:48):
Just about how they portrayed myself and Overton in the beginning. We needed more, and we would ask. Again, it's not about what the things were, it's about, "How dare you." It wasn't about this stuff, it's like, "You should be happy you got a job." And we, we were very happy. We had jobs. Everybody was extremely happy. Shit, I hadn't made that much money in my life. So that wasn't it. But we also knew that we had a responsibility and of what we were betraying, the people we were portraying.
Tracy (08:26):
I actually had the privilege of interviewing Queen Latifah on another podcast some years ago. She admitted pretty much that the concept for Friends was completely lifted from Living Single. I was just like, "Oh my gosh, I knew it. I knew it. I knew it." When you first heard of Friends and saw Friends, what was the response?
T.C. Carson (08:50):
Well, we knew it was our show. We knew it. When we heard it was out, we knew what it was. But I mean, they were both produced by Warner Brothers. The company saw that the formula worked and they did it again. That's all. You can't really... Again, we continue to look to someone else to hold our stories as true and hold our stories as who we are. We continue to ask somebody else to do it, and they're not going to do it. Why are we not doing it? And that's what's happening now. We're starting to hold the narrative for our stories. We're starting to be able to say, "No, this show is going to stay on." Back then it, we were a commodity. When you look at how many black shows were on... Look at Fox. Fox built its reputation on us. They did, and then they let everything go.
T.C. Carson (09:44):
But again, if we keep asking someone else to be the keeper of those stories, they're going to do with them as they please, because it is their property. So until we start owning our property, until we start owning our artistic expression, we're not going to be able to see what we want to see. At this point, I'm all withholding the powers that be accountable and making them do better, but I look at what are we doing for us? We have so much, yet our communities are still bereft of things. But we, as a people in this country, we got a lot of money. We got a lot of power and a lot of influence. What happens if we start turning those things back to our neighborhoods, back to our people? Not in dislike of somebody else, it ain't got nothing to do with nobody else. It's all about us, and that should be okay.
Tracy (10:41):
Yeah. I feel like that's a question that we have been asking internally for so long, like "When are we going to just turn inward and turn towards each other... "Excuse me, "to give ourselves the recognition and the validation and the awards that we deserve versus fighting and clawing to get to that Emmy or to that Oscar?" This is a big question, but why do you think that is? Why do you think it hasn't happened yet? I feel like there's a change starting, but why do you think it's taken so long?
T.C. Carson (11:13):
We have to remember that every system in this country was set up not for us. So we keep trying to excel in systems that were not built for us to excel in. We were taught that in order to make it work, you have to go over here. We were taught that in order for it to be popular, they had to sign off on it, or somebody else has to sign off on it. And now we're understanding that, "Well, no, since we're buying it, since we are the ones that are consuming it, then we should have more say over what it is that we get to buy." That's what's happening right now. You have Ava DuVernay, you got great directors that are writing. It's a wonderful time for us. The fact that things have been broken down with COVID where everybody's filming on this and on their phones and on little cameras now, and they're getting great workout shows us that we can move us forward.
Tracy (12:07):
Is that access, I think. We didn't have that before because the white folks wouldn't give it to us and now we don't need their permission. Bam, look what we get.
T.C. Carson (12:15):
We're starting to understand that our dollar is king. When we start to, again, understand what we need and then service us, then we're going to start winning.
Tracy (12:28):
Reminiscing on shows like this, like Living Single and Martin, it's comfort food for me now, especially as, my God, everything that's happening in the world right now. My family is from Louisville, which is where Brianna Taylor unfortunately was murdered. The things that trauma does to your brain and your body, I don't think people understand. And so it's this content that is literally helping to keep me healthy, and it makes it able for me to do my job. Why do you think this return to this content is happening right now?
T.C. Carson (13:05):
When you can give people something that will make them remember some joy, then that's why this stuff is important right now. The trauma is real. Trauma is not just what you see right here, trauma is internal. We are living with trauma from slavery. It's in our DNA. Until we start understanding that and understanding how to fix that for us, we're going to be running around like this. But it's in us, you can't deny it.
Tracy (13:34):
that's pretty much the ethos of this show, is black joy. You need joy in your life to make it through, so wonderful. Okay. Of course I had to look and see what you and this golden voice are up to aside from the video games, and you made a song called Come Together about the shitstorm that's happening now. I love to see that you're still here, you're still out, you're still connected to black folks and the struggle and what's going on. I feel like we are in desperate need of a pep talk right now. Would you happen to have one for us?
T.C. Carson (14:13):
I will say this, black people are strong as fuck. We are resilient. We have been beaten, burned, and we still are rising and surviving. Look at us, don't look to somebody else for your joy and for your uplifting. Look to your people. And I'm not talking about religion, I'm talking about looking to your people for the joy and to help uplift us.
Tracy (14:40):
I am so sad to have to let you go. This is just a joy. I feel like when it comes to saying thank you, I just turn into a big puddle of mush. But I mean you've been a part of my life for a long time. So it's a pleasure, a pleasure to meet you and laugh with you. So thank you so much for your time, you're very generous. Where can people find you and your work?
T.C. Carson (15:11):
Okay. No, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. It was a great interview, a lot of fun. You can hit me on my Instagram, which is officialtccarson. My YouTube page is TC Carson, Twitter and Facebook are also TC Carson. We're about to roll out a new cooking show called TC's Recipes. And so you'll be able to find that on my YouTube channel. We're looking at creating new music right now too, even during this pandemic. We're doing pieces, everybody's doing their piece at home and sending it in, so hopefully before the first of the year, we'll have some new music too.
Tracy (15:44):
Awesome. I can't wait. Thank you again. Please tell the chickens and the roosters I said, hi. I know you don't love them, [inaudible 00:15:53].
T.C. Carson (15:55):
I will. All right.