BORDERLINE SALTY

On today’s episode of Borderline Salty, hosts Rick Martinez and Carla Lalli Music respond to a rant about unsalted butter, discuss the basics of spice cabinet organization, and share tips for how to stretch a limited amount of basil. 

Plus, Stephen Satterfield from Netflix's High on the Hog joins us to share a kitchen nightmare story from his early days in fast-food service. Since we recorded this episode, High on the Hog won a Peabody Award. Congrats, Stephen!

This week’s recipe book:

As always, we’d love to hear about your cooking conundrums at 833-433-FOOD (3663). 

Check out Whetstone Magazine here and watch High on the Hog: How African American Cuisine Transformed America on Netflix

Find us on Instagram @borderlinesalty

Find full episode transcripts and more about the podcast on our website borderlinesalty.fm. 

If you can’t get enough of our hosts – we don’t blame you! Subscribe to Carla's newsletters here and find links to her Instagram and YouTube channel at www.carlalallimusic.com. 

You can order Rick’s cookbook “Mi Cocina: Recipes and Rapture from My Kitchen in Mexico here, watch the companion Mi Cocina video series here, and find all of his socials at www.rick-martinez.com

EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION

Rick Martinez: Hi, I'm Rick Martinez. I am a cookbook author, video host, and [phonetic] Choco and I are covered in home renovation dust. 

Carla Lalli Music: I'm Carla Lalli Music. I'm also a cookbook author, video host. And you are not the boss of me. 

Rick Martinez: And this is Borderline Salty, the show where we take your calls, boost your confidence, and make you a better, smarter, happier cook. 

Carla Lalli Music: Today, we'll discuss baking with salted butter, spice cabinet organization, and what to do with a limited amount of basil. 

Rick Martinez: And we're joined by special guest Stephen Satterfield from Netflix's High on the Hog to share his very own kitchen nightmare story. 

Carla Lalli Music: But before we get into all that, Rick, tell me something good. 

Rick Martinez: Carla, when was the last time you sat in a swing? 

Carla Lalli Music: Oh, I mean, one of my children was swing age, so probably going back, like, eight years. 

Rick Martinez: Okay. That is far too long. 

Carla Lalli Music: Is that right? 

Rick Martinez: This is a discovery that I literally made last night. So I just finished remodeling and decorating my entire house. And one of the things that I am so excited about, but I didn't know that I needed in my life was an indoor swing. And in fact, not one, but two. 

Carla Lalli Music: Wow. It just makes sense somehow. 

Rick Martinez: I mean, you know? Like, it just it sets a vibe that is so incredibly joyous. And so last night, I was doing my Instagram stories. 

Carla Lalli Music: Yeah. 

Rick Martinez: And I normally do that in bed, and I was like, You know what? I have a swing. Why not just go sit in the swing and, like, do it there? And I don't know. Like I had thought to myself, like when we were in the design phase, is this going to be dangerous? Am I going to have a drunken guest, like fall off the swing and crack their head? 

Carla Lalli Music: Right. 

Rick Martinez: Is this a dumb idea? And in fact, no. It is a very smart idea. And that's what I did. I just I felt like a baby, just, like slowly rocking myself to sleep as I'm going through Instagram. 

Carla Lalli Music: Wow. 

Rick Martinez: And it was one of the happiest moments I've had in a very long time. 

Carla Lalli Music: Love that for you. Yeah, it's hard to be uptight when you're sitting in a swing, so it's a great way to, like, disarm people in like, any nervousness or jitters. I personally get really dizzy in swings, so my vertigo would be triggered. So I'll just watch from the side. I'll give people, like, a gentle little push so you don't even have to use your legs. 

Rick Martinez: Well, when you come visit, I will make us cocktails. And you can sit in the large lounge chair across from the swings. 

Carla Lalli Music: Oh, great. She loves a chez. 

Rick Martinez: Who doesn't? 

Carla Lalli Music: Feet up, you know? 

Rick Martinez: So, Carla, why don't you tell me something good? 

Carla Lalli Music: There's been a lot of good things on these past few summer weekends, and I have basically decided this year that I'm not going to wait for peak season necessarily to enjoy some of my favorite summer foods. For example, this weekend I had two of my favorite summer like, firsts. The first one was chilled watermelon by the pool. I was at my parents' house. The pool was on. The peeps were hangin. We had salty chips and a tray of very delicious, you know, not as delicious as the watermelon's going to be over the next two months. But I want to ride the wave. You know, I want to be there when it was like good. And then I want to be there when it was, like, got better. And then it was great. And then it was like the best watermelon that you had and have like lots of reference points. 

Rick Martinez: Okay. So the big question on everybody's mind, did you serve it with the yellow mustard? 

Carla Lalli Music: I did not. You know, I didn't go for the mustard this time. But I do recommend pairing your watermelon with salty chips because then you get like the salted watermelon effect. And you know why we eat salty things when you're at the beach or by the pool? 

Rick Martinez: Because you lose salt from your sweat?

Carla Lalli Music: Yeah. And it helps you retain water, which is what you need to do when it's really hot out. So it makes sense to have a little salty things. 

Rick Martinez: Ooh, science by Carla! 

Carla Lalli Music: And then my other, you know, summer kick it off was I had my first tomato sandwich of the year. Hmm. My mom, Carol, got a very good tomato. 

Rick Martinez: Love Carol. 

Carla Lalli Music: It was in end of August in the Northeast Tomato, but it was very good. And I made a delicious cheddar sandwich with delicious slices of salted tomato and like a fistful of arugula. 

Rick Martinez: Nothing like fisting arugula. 

Carla Lalli Music: Fistfull my friend. 

Rick Martinez: Oh, sorry. Sorry. I missed that full part. Yeah, got it. 

Carla Lalli Music: I usually took a page from your playbook, your grilled cheese playbook, and toasted the sandwich up in delicious salted butter. And it was sublime. 

Rick Martinez: Ah, salted butter. Okay. Cultured. Non cultured?

Carla Lalli Music: Cultured. 

Rick Martinez: Even better. Carla Lalli Music. You win summer tomato sandwiches. 

Carla Lalli Music: But I really owe it all to Carol Lalli.

Rick Martinez: All right, Carla, are you ready to get into some caller questions? 

Carla Lalli Music: I was born ready. Let's do this. 

Rick Martinez: Hello, caller. You're on the line with Rick and Carla. 

Caller 1: Hey there. My name is Kevin, and I have a question slash rant about unsalted butter. I love to cook and I love to bake. And I feel like people always tell me in baking recipes to use unsalted butter and then add salt. However, I always use salted butter. I feel like my baked goods have always been fantastic and have never been over-salted. In fact, I would argue that most baked goods probably could benefit from more salt. And I wonder if people can even tell the difference between salted butter and unsalted butter. So that's my rant-slash-question, Why should I use unsalted butter versus melted butter? 

Carla Lalli Music: I mean, the Borderline Salties love a salt question. 

Rick Martinez: Ah. Love some salt. 

Carla Lalli Music: And I got to say, I agree with pretty much everything Kevin said, with the possible exception of people can't taste the difference between salted and unsalted because he basically proves otherwise by saying all of his stuff tastes amazing with salted butter and that in general, he feels like baking recipes could benefit from a little more salt, which I also completely agree with, especially older recipes. But as recipe developers, we would like you to use unsalted butter. And I know Rick has strong feelings about this and can tell us why. 

Rick Martinez: Yeah, I mean, I think I also 100% agree with Kevin about the baked good thing. I hate taking a bite of a cookie, and if there's not enough salt, you just don't taste it. It's almost like, why eat this cookie if you can't taste all the amazing things inside of it? 

Carla Lalli Music: Right. 

Rick Martinez: I also think that the reason why we as recipe developers use unsalted butter is to control the amount of salt and also to give the people that cook our food a baseline, you know, if we start at zero salt in a recipe, then I can tell you use a teaspoon of salt, and this is the result that you're going to get. And I think this is the right amount of salt, but then certainly you can adjust it as you go along. That's the reason why we do it, certainly 50 years ago, there was a belief that you added salt to preserve the butter and it is a preservative. 

Carla Lalli Music: Right. 

Rick Martinez: And, you know, just a quick Google search says that salted butter does still actually last a little bit longer, maybe 2 to 3 months longer than unsalted butter. But in an age of homogenization and pasteurization and all of these other things, you're probably not going to get a lot of off-flavors. But I also store unused butter in my freezer, because when I see, you know, [phonetic] president butter or cultured butter on sale at the grocery store, I buy about 10 pounds. Yeah. And then I am well-stocked any time a cookie emergency happens, which is often. 

Carla Lalli Music: Mm hmm. Another thing that we will always want to do is just assume that you have one type of butter in the house. So assuming that people have unsalted because they're using it for kind of everything and then adding the salt. But I don't know, Kevin sounds like he's a pro. He's making some delicious baked goods. No one has complained. I think it's great to have a couple of rants in life and just keep this one. 

Rick Martinez: Keep doing what you're doing. 

Carla Lalli Music: Yeah, we wouldn't have salted caramel chocolate tarts if it wasn't true that a little bit of salt makes every dessert better. 

Rick Martinez: Sometimes a lot of salt. 

Carla Lalli Music: All right, who's next? 

Caller 2: Hi, Carla and Rick. My name is [phonetic] Sabina, and I'm Sicilian. I love cooking my grandmother's recipes. Nona, shout out to Nona. I love you. But the problem that I face a lot is finding good basil. Something that my nona says is that it's not even worth making red sauce if you don't have good basil. Like dried bagel is not cutting it, obviously. But I live in Arizona and it's really hard to find good quality basil. So I was wondering if you guys have any good suggestions for buying basil or finding basil? Because growing basil in my climate is totally not an option. Okay, thanks. Big fan! Bye! 

Carla Lalli Music: Shout out Nona and shout out Sicily. 

Rick Martinez: Yes.

Carla Lalli Music: Love. Actually, Sicily and Arizona. I bet it's not easy to grow basil in Southern Sicily in the summer either. It's very hot and very dry. So many generations have probably struggled with the same problem. I mean, if you're not growing your basil, you're looking for it in the supermarket. And if you are buying basil just to cook with, try to buy it as close to, you know, Sunday ragu day as possible. And I used to always store Basil in, like a loosely wrapped plastic vegetable bag or other reusable bag with a piece of paper towel inside. Until I started working with my food stylist, [phonetic] Sabel, who works with me on all of my videos. And every time we get basil, she puts it in a jar with cold water and then puts a vegetable bag over the top and leaves it at room temperature. And it does great. I'm curious, Rick, are you a fridge guy or a counter guy? 

Rick Martinez: I'm a fridge guy. And mainly because here it's a lot warmer and things will will go bad more quickly. When I worked at Food Network, the way that we would store basil depended on the size of the stems. So for example, if you can find big stemmed basil, then we would keep it in quart containers with a little water and then put a bag over it. And in the cooler months we'd keep it outside. In the warmer months we would put it in the walk-in, and then for the small stemmed basil, we would take a Ziploc bag, put a few leaves in it with a dry paper towel folded in half and then seal it up. That's the way that the basil was always stored, unlike Iron Chef and all the cooking competition shows. Using those two methods, we always had fresh basil and it would always last at least five days if not longer. 

Carla Lalli Music: Yeah. And if this is something that [phonetic] Sabina can't count on finding in the supermarket, and you have to hold it longer because you just don't want to be caught without by a bunch, you know, not literally one bunch, but by a bunch of bunches. Bring them home and put a pot of heavily salted water on to boil. Pick those basil leaves and then dunk them in the boiling salted water for about 30 seconds. This will lock in their green color, it will season them, it will tenderize them, and then immediately shock in cold ice water and then drain, squeeze them out and puree that cooked blanched basil in a blender, hand blender, food processor with just enough oil to turn the blades. And then you can freeze that in like tablespoon portions or other small portions to add to the sauce. Because I agree with Nona, you know, dried basil doesn't cut it. I'd rather leave it out than use dried basil or rely on one of these little frozen basil cubes. 

Rick Martinez: Yeah. And then just drop the cube at the end to finish your sauce and boom. 

Carla Lalli Music: How come at the end? Tell me your thinking on that. 

Rick Martinez: Because I think if you dropped it in at the beginning and it's a long simmered sauce, you're going to lose all that fresh flavor. 

Carla Lalli Music: Got it. That makes total sense. Yeah. And if all else fails, there's no fresh basil. You really want to make the sauce, you know, tomato sauce without basil is still good. And I really like dried oregano, which is very Sicilian also to use dried oregano. And I swear to God, ragus is can be delicious, even if they don't have tons of fresh basil in them. And I will prove it by linking to my recipe for Gia's Sunday ragu in the show notes. 

Rick Martinez: Preach. 

Carla Lalli Music: I can smell the sauce. Can you smell the sauce? 

Rick Martinez: Oh. I want some pasta now. 

Carla Lalli Music: The tomatoey flavor. I can smell it wafting through the house. 

Rick Martinez: Oh, my God. Carla, we have time for one last question. 

Carla Lalli Music: All right, Carla, what do you got? 

Caller 3: Hi, Rick and Carla. My name is Ellen, and I have a cooking conundrum. I'm afraid of my spice cabinet. It has taken over my kitchen. I've got old spices. I've got new spices. How do you guys manage your spices? Please, can you help me? It's becoming an issue with me, and my husband, my house. Anything you guys can do to help would be greatly appreciated. 

Rick Martinez: I feel like I've just watched a horror movie trailer. I'm just imagining, like, these evil spices, like, seeping out of the closet and spinning out of a Lazy Susan.  Like.  And poor Ellen, like, you know, being murdered by cinnamon sticks and allspice berries. 

Carla Lalli Music: I know when we're little kids, it's like the monster in the closet. And then when you become an adult, it's like the spice. Spices. In the cabinet. 

Rick Martinez: Oh, my God. Did Carol have the little metal McCormick tins of, like, cinnamon and allspice and cloves? 

Carla Lalli Music: Oh, yeah. 

Rick Martinez: And just sat there forever. Like, until they got rusty?

Carla Lalli Music: Indeed, although, you know, she moved through spaces pretty well and it was always organized. But I think there's a clue in the very beginning of Ellen's comment, which is that she's got old spices and she's got new spices. Mm hmm. And if you've got an old space. 

Rick Martinez: You need to get rid of it. 

Carla Lalli Music:  Yeah, if you have an old spice, like you've got some old cumin and then you have some new cumin. Then old cumin has to go. Bye bye. 

Rick Martinez: Yeah. So I have a very strict one-year policy on all of my spaces. The first thing that happens, and I generally do this in January so that it's just like, you know, part of the New Year cleanse. So when I buy anything for my pantry, I always put a label on it on the date that it entered the pantry, so that I know that if something was purchased and arrived on 3-21-21, then on three 2122, I can get rid of it, that motherfucker's gone. But just to be clear, like, I actually compost all the dried herbs and spices, and, you know, I actually don't even need to do anything fancy. I actually just sprinkle them over the top of my plants. And then when you water them, you get a nice little waft of, like, ground cloves. 

Carla Lalli Music: That's sweet. I bring mine out on a boat, and I just cast them out at sea with their one of their favorite. I'm like ground cumin. Loved this view. So we're just going to go there and sprinkle them all over the side of the hill. So yeah, I love a cabinet clean out. For me, they aren't as planned as that. For me it's like I want to put something away and there isn't quite enough room. And then right then and there I have to like have the giant reorg, so it's just [unclear] for the kitchen. It's very cleansing. It's a wonderful practice. 

Rick Martinez: You thank it food service and then it's no longer sparking joy. 

Carla Lalli Music: That's right. 

Rick Martinez: Now, I've heard you also talk about your zones. Can you tell us about your your zoning policy? 

Carla Lalli Music: Oh, yeah. So the whole kitchen is organized by zone. And then within the zone you have like the things that go together, live in that zone together. So all of my spaces are in one area of the kitchen, kind of these pull out drawers that are right on top of each other. And the way that I keep my spices organized is basically there's one area that's for all of the chili-based spices. So all the different kinds of chili powder, paprika, cayenne, but also whole chilis, like anything that is derived from a chili lives in that area, and then everything else kind of, by default, lives together. So cumin and coriander and fennel and cinnamon and star anise like they are in chili so that you're not going to find them in that. And then I keep overflow like spices that I buy in larger quantities are black pepper, the bag of MSG, even my nutritional yeast, which I kind of think of as a spice, like extra boxes of flaky salt, like those are overflow, go somewhere else. But that way, if you're looking for something that isn't a chili spice and you didn't find it, that means you don't have it. It doesn't mean that it could be in three other places. It's like if it's not here, I don't have it. 

Rick Martinez: Yeah. And then buy smaller like don't buy the big ones by like by smaller, by whole spices. The flavor will last longer. Grind them yourself. Yeah. And then that way you're not dropping a whole lot of money, you know, on, like, a giant jar of ground cinnamon. 

Carla Lalli Music: Exactly. Happy spice, happy life. 

Rick Martinez: Happy pantry, happy you. 

Carla Lalli Music: Now it's time for our next segment, Total Kitchen Nightmare. 

Rick Martinez: In this segment, we're bringing in our friends and culinary heroes to share their kitchen disasters. And this week, we're speaking to someone who has been redefining food media: Stephen Satterfield. 

Carla Lalli Music: Stephen is the founder of Whetstone, a media company dedicated to food, origins and culture. 

Rick Martinez: He's also the host of one of my absolute favorite docu-series on Netflix High on the Hog, which documents how African American food has defined American cuisine. 

Carla Lalli Music: He's doing truly transformative work in food origins, culture and culinary history, and we are so excited to chat with him today. 

Rick Martinez: So excited. Well, Stephen, we are so incredibly excited to have you on. Welcome. And thank you for doing this. 

Stephen: Thank you for having me. And I share your in excitement. 

Carla Lalli Music: We also want to give a huge congratulations on the very amazing and well-earned Peabody nomination for High on the Hog. 

Stephen: Thank you so much. What an honor that is shared among many. I'm happy to be included. 

Carla Lalli Music: Yeah, it actually made us think about all of the different ways that you've been involved in various facets of the food world. You went to culinary school, which Rick and I both did. You're a sommelier, which I am not. You've managed amazing restaurants, and you now create media on many platforms about food and culture. I mean, it's pretty amazing. Very impressive. 

Stephen: Thank you. I'm really flattered. It sounds really good coming out of your mouth [unclear]. I like the sound of it. Thank you. 

Rick Martinez: Oh, no, thank you. But I also think that you probably at some point in your career before you were making these award-winning series and telling these amazing stories, you probably had a kitchen nightmare. And I would love it if you could tell us what it was. 

Stephen: Yeah, I knew we were going to go here Rick, so. No, this is part of the origin story, you know? Yeah, I like that y'all are using this show to explore the dark side of people who are often otherwise celebrated. Okay, so I have a story for you. And well, before I tell you the story, I would have to tell you that I have had so many kitchen nightmares that I didn't even know which one to choose from or where to begin, but typically the way that I handle my kitchen nightmares is to suppress them, to bury them, and to burn sage around the memories where those nightmares used to live in my mind. So that's number one. But I did think of one story, actually, is from when I was in culinary school. It was a long time ago. I was a teenager. And, you know, I was already like a pretty serious food person at this early stage in life. But I was also paying my way through school. And so I had a lot of jobs. I was just hustling. I had no money. So one of the jobs that was available to me was in a mall in Portland. I believe the mall was called the Lloyd Center Mall. It was a burger place with all sincerity, I truly don't remember the name of the establishment. In a moment, you'll hear why it was a short tenure. So I don't actually remember the name of the place, but it was a burger place inside of this mall. I think I was trying to get into, like, a management pathway, perhaps, quick service management. And so, you know, they had me go through the training. They accepted me because I was in the management and hospitality school. So they brought me in and I realized I'm going to have to go through all of the different stations, you know. And one of the stations was as a prep cook. And one of the things that I had to prep was guacamole. And I'm like, I'm in culinary school. This is an expensive education. I grew up watching the Food Network. I know how to make guacamole. This is offending my sensibilities. 

Carla Lalli Music: Also brief pause. Was this the kind of burger place that, like you could have, like the Mexican burger or the pizza burger or the like? Because guacamole and burgers not necessarily? 

Stephen: Right, already are red flag. So it says a lot about what kind of place. So, yeah, I'll leave it to you to infer from there. But you're asking all the right questions. And probably this was on my mind when the next thing happened, which is the nightmare itself. So I'm making the guacamole begrudgingly because I know how to do it. I can't remember if I was improvising off of the recipe or if I, in just a state of not being tapped into the work like maybe was following the recipe but somehow like over salted, I don't know, whatever happened, there was too much salt in the guacamole and there is a lot of avocados that have been used at this point. So then I decided to course correct, adding a little balance, right? Yeah. I thought maybe just a little more acid and a little more heat. I mean, I love salt, but like a little acid. A little heat. I'm sure it's fine. I did these things, add the chili flakes. Add some more lime. I'm like, Wow, this is really salty and hot now. I didn't actually go how I thought I was going to go. So I said, Well, I'm at the Portland mall. And I think that if the guacamole is spicy, that's going to really be an alarm for a lot of people. Like that's not going to go unnoticed, shall we say. So I thought maybe no, I had never done this is a qualifier, but I thought maybe a little sugar to balance out all of the heat. Right? 

Carla Lalli Music: These are great. I mean that for a teenage culinary student. You understood balance. 

Stephen: You understand, thank you. OK, so. You're walking with me. 

Carla Lalli Music: You've watched two hot tamales. You know what's up.

Stephen: I know what's up. 

Carla Lalli Music:  Yeah. 

Stephen: So I add the sugar and I'm like, okay, this is a disaster. This is not palatable. And so instead of sharing that knowledge, I decided to withhold that knowledge. I kept that. And so the guacamole was sent out. And I'm not sure if it was the manager on duty who tasted the guacamole. Maybe someone tasted it and alerted the manager on duty. But I didn't even get through that shift. I was, I was asked to take my apron off. And that was my last day on the job. I think it was maybe my third day of work. I was more of a fine dining guy.

Carla Lalli Music: Totally. 

Stephen: So that was an important revelation for me too. So that was my, my brief career in quick service hospitality. 

Rick Martinez: Well, so it worked out for the best. 

Stephen: Totally no regrets. 

Rick Martinez: Exactly. 

Carla Lalli Music: This is what we're always saying all of these mistakes lead us on to like being better humans. 

Rick Martinez: Bigger and better things. 

Carla Lalli Music: Do you have a hard time with guacamole to this day? 

Stephen: No, certainly not. I mean.

Carla Lalli Music: Thank goodness. 

Stephen: I'm amazing at making guacamole. I probably was amazing at making it when I was a 19 year old, which is what really derailed me in that moment. But yeah, I told you, I suppressed these memories. And so I never really thought about that again until actually truly this this show, your inquiry sent me down my pathway of remembering disasters in the kitchen. 

Rick Martinez: After you leave, you'll never have to speak of it again, hopefully.

Stephen: Well, we can revive this one. But yeah, the rest are still in the graveyard, thankfully. 

Carla Lalli Music: That's a real gift. Mine are very surface. Like just while you're speaking. Two or three other ones just came back up to the top. 

Stephen: I'm sorry. One of the reasons actually that I decided to go in a management pathway for my career was that some of the early moments of the things on the plate not matching the vision in my mind and for people that I love. I didn't like that feeling. I didn't want to be a professional chef because I didn't like the stakes. You know, it changed my relationship with food so that actually I guess I did the equivalent of like switching majors. I'm going from culinary to the hospitality program. So yeah, I have a gift. And I guess if it's a gift, whatever the opposite of that is, that's what is happening for you. And I'm sorry for that. 

Carla Lalli Music: That's okay. 

Stephen: You're really resilient, though. You've come really far, even though these things are close to the surface. 

Carla Lalli Music: Yeah, that's true, for total kitchen nightmare. Honestly, we could just rotate through every five or six guests that we have, Rick and I can tell another nightmare. But, Stephen, if this story were a short story that you had to give a headline or a title to, what would it be? 

Stephen: Too cocky with the Guac. 

Rick Martinez: I would so read that story. Oh, my goodness. 

Carla Lalli Music: Same.

Stephen: Me too, me too, actually. 

Rick Martinez: To cock for guac. 

Carla Lalli Music: Yeah. Too cocky with the guac-y. 

Stephen: Too cocky with the guac-y.

Carla Lalli Music: That's amazing. They were lucky to have you and they just didn't know it. 

Stephen: They didn't recognize the talent.

Carla Lalli Music: They didn't. 

Stephen: And thank you for seeing me in that moment. 

Carla Lalli Music: Before we go, it's time for you, guessed it. Rad fad or bad fad. Okay, Rick, this trend was popping off a couple of weeks ago, and every time I saw it, I wanted to eat it so badly. It combines so many of my favorite things into one of my other favorite things. And I found it mouth-watering. We're about to find out what you think. 

Rick Martinez: My stomach is growling. 

Carla Lalli Music: Let's do it. 

Video: It's sandwich time, bitches. And this time we're making an Italian grinder on homemade focaccia. (What?) Melt the bread on both sides? Turkey goes down on one side while the other gets ham, going in with the [unclear] go in it with the [unclear]. And of course, we got the [unclear]. Don't just lay it flat, like give it some depth here. (Yeah, I noticed that.) And then, of course, pepperones. The little minis. 

Rick Martinez: Look at the pepperoni cups. 

Video: Heat that shit up. Get it nice and toasty. Heat the meats all the way through. Next, you need to put parm on there. Fresh palm. Do not buy store bought, already done palm. 

Carla Lalli Music: Okay, so everything that's happening here is huge. But the next part is what really makes the sandwich. And I have to explain it because I am so into it. So after the meat and cheese is all perfectly draped and laid down and toasted, you cut up some thick tomatoes and then make the grinder salad. So for that, you grate garlic, add it into mayo with red wine vinegar and oregano. Then you slice some [phonetic] pepperonis and onions and add both of those into the mayo mixture with more fresh, cracked pepper and chili flakes. Give that whole thing a toss and stack a whole bunch of it onto your sandwich for the finished product. 

Video: Look how good this looks. MM! 

Rick Martinez: Shut the fuck up. No! Shut up. God damn it. I am so hungry. 

Carla Lalli Music: All of the meat. Like it's such a meat party. It's like already a meat party. But the grinder salad itself has taken off as, like, a veggie sandwich. 

Rick Martinez: Oh, I've never seen, like, all the veg dressed like that before. Like, I've seen all of them individually, you know, composed on the sandwich, but. Oh, my God. 

Carla Lalli Music: And then you've got the hot and the cold and the crunchy and the wet and the cheesy. And the. 

Rick Martinez: Melty. And the drippy and the cups.

Carla Lalli Music: The cups. The pepperoni cups. 

Rick Martinez: Like, who is this woman? Like, I love her. I want her to talk through every recipe now. 

Carla Lalli Music: And great advice there with the draping of the cold cuts instead of just making them flat, fluffy. 

Rick Martinez: Oh, I need that in my life. You are exactly right. I am so hungry. I think literally my heart stopped when she put the one what I thought was one sandwich on top of the other. Oh, my God. 

Carla Lalli Music: I'd also like to mention that it's her boyfriend who is making her this sandwich while she films and narrates it. And I just have to say, that's amore, folks. 

Rick Martinez: Is the boyfriend on Grindr?

Carla Lalli Music:  It's a grinder salad. 

Rick Martinez: Oh, right, right. Sorry. 

Carla Lalli Music: Okay. So without really having to ask The Grinder Sandrich, Rad fad or bad fad? 

Rick Martinez: That is the raddest fucking thing I've ever seen in my entire life. Like, I'm literally, like, I'm like, great, now I get to go eat yogurt and berries? That's going to be really satisfying now. 

Carla Lalli Music: Yeah, we're just here to inspire.

Rick Martinez: And that's it for this week's episode of Borderline Salty. 

Carla Lalli Music: You can find recipes and recommendations from this week's episode in our show notes. 

Rick Martinez: And if you're like me and you can't get enough of our guest, Stephen, make sure to check out Whetstone magazine dot and High on the Hog on Netflix. 

Carla Lalli Music: Or give him a follow on Instagram or Twitter @isawstephen. 

Rick Martinez: If you have a question or a fear you want us to help you work through, you can always leave us a voicemail at eight three, three, four, three, three food. 

Carla Lalli Music: That number again is eight three, three, four, three, three, three, six, six three. 

Rick Martinez: Borderline Salty is an original production by Pineapple Street Studios, we’re your hosts. I'm Rick Martinez. 

Carla Lalli Music: I'm Carla Lalli Music. You can find links to our work in the show notes for this episode. 

Rick Martinez: Natalie Brennan is our lead producer. 

Carla Lalli Music: Janelle Anderson is our producer. 

Rick Martinez: Our managing producer is Agerenesh Ashagre.

Carla Lalli Music: Our assistant producer is Mari Orozco. 

Rick Martinez: Our head of sound and engineering is Raj Makhija. 

Carla Lalli Music:  Mixing in Engineering by Davey Sumner and Jason Richards. 

Rick Martinez: Our assistant engineers are Sharon Vadas and Jade Brooks. 

Carla Lalli Music: Original music from our very own Raj Makhija. 

Rick Martinez: Additional Music from Vincent Vega. Spring Game and Glove Box Courtesy of Epidemic Sound. 

Carla Lalli Music: Legal Services for Pineapple Street are provided by Bianca Grimshaw at Granderson des Rochers.

Rick Martinez: Our executive producers are Max Linsky and Jenna Weiss-Berman. 

Carla Lalli Music: We appreciate Kevin, Ellen, and Sabina for calling in this week. 

Rick Martinez: And a huge thank you to you for listening. We'll be talking to you real soon. 

Carla Lalli Music: Yeah, Rick, don't lose my number. 

Rick Martinez: Oh, honey, I got you on speed dial. 

Carla Lalli Music: Talk to you next week. 

Rick Martinez: Make your loved one a sandwich. 

Carla Lalli Music: Grinders for Grindr. 

Rick Martinez: I've never been so inspired to open up that app.