BORDERLINE SALTY

On this episode hosts Rick Martinez and Carla Lalli Music support callers through how to make perfectly cooked duck, help plan a dinner party with surprise ingredients, and share tips on what to do with all of your extra celery. 

And this time on No, Thank You, Please, Rick and Carla explain why you should warm up to artichokes. 

This week’s recipe book:

As always, we’d love to hear about your cooking conundrums at 833-433-FOOD (3663). 

Find us on Instagram @borderlinesalty

Find full episode transcripts and more about the podcast on our website borderlinesalty.fm. 

If you can’t get enough of our hosts – we don’t blame you! Subscribe to Carla's newsletters here and find links to her Instagram and YouTube channel at www.carlalallimusic.com. 

You can order Rick’s cookbook “Mi Cocina: Recipes and Rapture from My Kitchen in Mexico here, watch the companion Mi Cocina video series here, and find all of his socials at www.rick-martinez.com

EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION

Rick Martinez: Hi, I'm Rick Martinez. I am a cookbook author, video host, and I love making my own birthday cake. 

Carla Lalli Music: I'm Carla Lalli Music. I'm also a cookbook author, video host, and recently someone on YouTube described me as a wine aunt. And I think it's going to stick. 

Rick Martinez: Love that. 

Carla Lalli Music: Rick and I have been solving and laughing our way through food problems together for more than a decade in test kitchens, in videos and at magazines. 

Rick Martinez:  And now we're doing it here on Borderline Salty, the show where we take your calls, boost your confidence, and make you a better, smarter, happier cook. Just like us. 

Carla Lalli Music: Today will weigh in on creative flavor pairings, the best way is to use up your celery, and how to mind your damn business in the kitchen. 

Rick Martinez: Backseat drivers in the kitchen. 

Carla Lalli Music: Simmer down, you back seat cookers. But before we dive in, Rick, tell me something good. 

Rick Martinez: Carla.

Carla Lalli Music: Rick.

Rick Martinez: So I love certain recipes that I make only once a year or for special occasions, but there's something that's really incredible about that anticipatory, it's almost here, it's almost time to make that thing again. And I just recently had one of those events. For my birthday, as you know, we're both summer babies and -- 

Carla Lalli Music: I know where to bury the lead here, happy birthday. 

Rick Martinez: Thank you. And it was really incredible because my father came up from Texas. This was his first time in Mazatlan. He came to see the house and meet the dog. And that was all really amazing. But the cake was really the showstopper. It is this really simple one bowl chocolate cake with some brown butter and some malted milk powder. But really, what is the showstopper in this cake is the frosting. It is a buttercream with chocolate and malted milk powder. 

Carla Lalli Music: I love malts. 

Rick Martinez: It's so good. And when you put it in a frosting, it just like transforms it. It gets a little fluffier, it gets a little creamier, it amps up the milky flavor, and then you get this sort of chocolaty malty situation. And, you know, I actually put quite a lot of it. It's almost a 50/50 ratio of frosting to chocolate cake. 

Carla Lalli Music: Yeah, yeah. As it should be, sure. 

Rick Martinez:  I mean, it's my birthday, so what the hell. 

Carla Lalli Music: Right? This isn't a crumb coat. 

Rick Martinez: And the beauty about making your own birthday cakes is that you're never disappointed because you know you're never going to eat store bought crappy birthday cake. You're never going to misspell your name or like it's time to say happy graduation when it's really your birthday, it's just you and this delicious cake. And my favorite thing about my birthday is the day after I get to have birthday cake and black coffee for breakfast. 

Carla Lalli Music: Oh, my God. Leftover cake. It's almost all worth it for the leftover cake. 

Rick Martinez: 100%. 

Carla Lalli Music: I want to ask you, do you keep the leftovers on the counter or in the fridge? 

Rick Martinez: Well, it depends on how hot it is.

Carla Lalli Music: Right. 

Rick Martinez: I usually let it stay out for one day just because I feel like the cake absorbs more of that butter, you know, as it's seeping out of the frosting. But then after the day, I put it in the fridge to, you know, keep it safe. 

Carla Lalli Music: Well, that's an awesome way to celebrate your birthday. I love that you, you're never someone to not treat yourself, but I love that it carries over to birthday cake as well. 

Rick Martinez: Obviously. So, Carla, why don't you tell me something good? 

Carla Lalli Music: Well, I am enjoying a little bit of city gardening, and every spring, summer, we kind of re-up on the outdoor plants, and then I get new herbs. So I have like couple of different kinds of mint and a couple different kinds of basil. And I've got a rosemary plant and some chive plants that made actually really pretty flowers. But this year, when I went to the farmer's market in the beginning of the season, one of my favorite growers was also selling plants and he was selling a perilla leaf plant and perilla leaf, for people who don't know, is related to sesame. And it's very typical to use these leaves when making a som wrapper for Korean barbecue so you can use lettuce wrapper with parilla tucked inside. You could just use a perilla leaf. And the flavor is, I think because I had never tasted parilla until I was deep into adulthood so when you have a new flavor at that stage in your life, like it's just really special, you know, like, oh, I've never, you know, never tasted it before. And it's kind of a cross between like minty, but it's got like a woodsy flavor to it. And the leaves, like, have a little bit of fuzz on them. But I just, it's an indescribable flavor, which is maybe why I love it. So now we have parilla leaf growing and I can just clip some off every time I barbecue and make a little som wrapper. Love it. 

Rick Martinez: And they're beautiful plants. 

Carla Lalli Music: They're beautiful. 

Rick Martinez: I actually used to use it. I would put it in iced tea. It's all the really good for [phonetic] Grenada's or any kind of beverages, make a simple sirup with it and make it into a cocktail. 

Carla Lalli Music: Ooh, yum. 

Rick Martinez: Super delicious. 

Carla Lalli Music: Ooh, I got to experiment a little bit because it is. It's really hearty, and I have a black thumb, so, like, every plant I bring in, I apologize in advance. But it's doing really well. Hey, Rick, are you ready for some listener questions? 

Rick Martinez: Hi, caller. You're on the line with Rick and Carla. 

Caller 1: Hi. My name is Crystal. My question has to do with cooking ducks. So I know that it's a fattier bird, but I can never quite get sort of that skin texture that I like. It always ends up being sort of squishy and rubbery, and usually what I've tried to impart is more of that classic Peking Beijing style of roast duck, where you have a really nice, crisp, golden, almost caramelized skin, and then that tender, juicy meat in the middle. I can never achieve that. It always ends up being just kind of sad, squishy, rubbery skin. So if you can help me find a better way or the best way to cook a duck, that would be much appreciated. 

Carla Lalli Music: I love making duck. 

Rick Martinez:  Perfectly cooked duck is just an amazing experience and sadly not a lot of people can cook it right, so. 

Carla Lalli Music: Yeah, and I think this is one of the reasons is like people are intimidated by how much fat there is. 

Rick Martinez: Right.

Carla Lalli Music: But it's also what makes it so delicious. I love the comparison to like the Peking duck that you get in Chinese restaurants that has like that crackling sheered out skin. But the way that that's done is like a multistep process with like blanching and thinning and hanging and drying out and then putting hot oil over it and draining, you know, it's like a whole thing. I don't know about you. I always like to score the skin, like do a crosshatch, or at least just like long diagonals. And what that does is it kind of opens up that thick layer of fat, so it just creates more surface area for the fat to melt out of. 

Rick Martinez: Same applies for piggies too. So like ham, pork shoulder, if it's got a thick layer of fat, score it and it'll it'll render. 

Carla Lalli Music: Totally. And then I like to start it in a cold pan. 

Rick Martinez: Yeah. 

Carla Lalli Music: And what that does is just allows things to start melting slowly instead of if you put the duck breast into a hot pan, it's going to sear and essentially like close those pores off from melting. 

Rick Martinez: Right.

Carla Lalli Music: So if you've crosshatched it, you started in a low pan and then that whole first phase of cooking is really just like rendering the fat. It could take like ten or 15 minutes and you might even have to tilt the pan to pour out the fat that accumulates, save it, pour it through a strainer, and obviously save that. And then just gradually keeping it over medium heat until all of that fat renders. That's what's the squishiness that she's talking about is coming or the rubberiness is coming from just on rendered fat. 

Rick Martinez: Yeah, I think the hardest part is just waiting because it's a process. I mean, it can take like up to 30 minutes. You're just like standing there and you're pulling the fat out and it'll tell you when it's done. Like when you see that deep, golden, caramelized color on the other side and it's thin, like, so, you know, if you start out with maybe even a third of an inch or up to a half an inch and places of fat, you know, in the raw duck breast by the time you've successfully and correctly rendered the fat. I mean, we should be like at maybe an eighth of an inch, if not like a 16th of an inch of crispy skin. 

Carla Lalli Music: Yeah. Just be careful that you're not browning the, like, outer layer before the fat has had a chance to melt. 

Rick Martinez: Right. And if it looks like it's browning too quickly, like if you're still at, you know, a quarter of an inch of fat and it's starting to get too much color, just reduce the heat and then just wait and you just play the waiting game because you can always increase the heat. But if you get the skin too dark before the fat has rendered, it's really hard to deal with at that point because you don't want to put on any more color, but you're not going to have crispy skin, even though it's going to be very dark. Oh, my God. Yum. I want duck now. Ugh. 

Carla Lalli Music: Hey, Rick, can you get that? Can somebody get the phone? 

Caller 2: Hi, my name is Ruth Tompkins. I'm calling because I am hosting a Chopped-style food challenge for a few of my friends who are excellent home cooks. So I want to challenge them with surprise ingredients and I'm going to be giving them a surprise ingredient for both a main dish and for a dessert that they'll have to prepare. I'm wondering what you guys would recommend or what you would be excited to work with if you were given that same challenge. And I'm thinking anything from like a box of Kraft dinner to a sea urchin. Just to fill you in some more, the categories were going to be kind of rating their dish on our creativity prominence of the ingredient in the dish, the plating, and the overall taste of the dish. Thanks! I love the show. 

Carla Lalli Music: I love this idea. So fun. 

Rick Martinez: So funny enough, I used to work with and I'm friends with the woman who used to buy the baskets for Chopped at the Food Network. 

Carla Lalli Music: Oh. 

Rick Martinez: And one of the things that she really enjoyed doing is going to really, really small bodegas and just finding bizarre little packaged goods. And I think that I think that's a fun way for Ruth to inspire creativity, because when you go to a convenience store or bodega and you find that little, you know, package of Twizzlers or beer nuts, and you pair that with something like king trumpet mushrooms or sea urchin, then you really, really have to dig deep and find that creative inspiration to make those ingredients work together. And I think it'll be really fun to watch and it'll be really fun to actually cook through. 

Carla Lalli Music: I think it's also really fun to challenge people to think against the grain. So giving a very savory flavor for the dessert category or giving like something super sweet that you have to figure out how to work into a main course. So like, you know, giving them beef jerky but making them use it for the dessert or Skittles that you have to figure out, like, what are you going to pair those with, or gummy candy or something like that to do. 

Rick Martinez: Oven a condiment.

Carla Lalli Music: Yeah. Yeah. 

Rick Martinez: Remember that time I was developing this recipe for a biscotti and I had to use green olives and white chocolate? 

Carla Lalli Music: Oh, what? 

Rick Martinez: It was the most bizarre combo. And I think that's what I love about surprise ingredients is that you have to figure out a way to make them work together and. 

Carla Lalli Music: Right. 

Rick Martinez: I roasted the olives and dehydrated them and paired them with, like, the ridiculously sweet white chocolate. 

Carla Lalli Music: Yeah. 

Rick Martinez: And they bizarrely worked on the biscotti. 

Carla Lalli Music: Wow.

Rick Martinez: And I think that's what you kind of want to do with your guests in this challenge. 

Carla Lalli Music: That's super fun. This is like a version of Fridge Dive that, you know, just like up the ante. We should all be doing this with ingredients in our fridge that we're like.

Rick Martinez: 100%. 

Carla Lalli Music: Oh, what am I going to do with that? And be like, you have to use it in dinner tonight, no matter what. 

Rick Martinez: Yes. Oh, my God. Let's create another like, a Wednesday night challenge. Just like, pull out that one thing that's been sitting in your pantry or your fridge for months, like you have to make a dinner using this ingredient. 

Carla Lalli Music: Whatever happens, it is going on somebody's plate tonight. 

Rick Martinez: Exactly. Line two, you're on. 

Caller 3: Hi Rick and Carla. This has Vince, and I have a celery conundrum. Every time a cook a recipe, I use like three or four ribs of celery. And then I have the best kind of like languishing really sadly in my crisper drawer. Do you have any recommendations for what to do with the rest of those celery stocks? Thanks, Rick and Carla. 

Rick Martinez: This is such a great question because I feel like you only ever need like two or three stalks of celery and then you have like this whole head left. 

Carla Lalli Music: `Yeah. And I love this question, too, because I love celery and.

Rick Martinez: It's so good.

Carla Lalli Music: And one of the reasons I love it is because it is so affordable and the yield is so high. So when you buy like an actual bunch of celery, it does. It's like a lot of celery and it's probably cost you $2. 

Rick Martinez: I also think that the reason people don't really know what to do with it is because we like have conditioned them, recipe developers, to believe that celery is always the backup player. It's always just like bringing up a little flavor or a little bit of crunch. But what we need to do is we need to start recasting celery as the star or the costar of a dish.

Carla Lalli Music: That's right.

Rick Martinez: And one thing that I like to do is especially in stir fries, I think celery is great for stir fry because it adds crunch and flavor. But if you think about stir fries that, you know, like beef and broccoli and then just like totally ditch the broccoli and just sub in celery, you will have a really flavorful dish. You'll have like that beautiful texture and crunch and all of a sudden it's a costar and it's bring in its A-game. I really, really love it. The other thing that I love is pairing it with apple. I think apple and celery. Like especially in like a Waldorf or also in a stir fry or baked with chicken. Super, super delicious. 

Carla Lalli Music: It's funny you mention celery and apples. So classic in a Waldorf. And our good friend [phonetic] Andy Baraghani, his new book, The Cook You Want to Be. I've been reading it in bed. It's a beautiful book. It's awesome. I love Andy, but he has a recipe for a celery, apple and blue cheese salad that I'm dying to make. 

Rick Martinez: Oh, stop. 

Carla Lalli Music: Yeah you, like, soak the salary in ice water and it gets even crunchier. I love it in [phonetic] ceaserie preparations, Celery Caesar is delicious. And I have a recipe in That sounds so Good called Sorry, I like Celery because half of us in this household really like celery. The other half I hate it. And I think that that's true. Anecdotally, like some people really don't like it. So my recipe Sorry I like Celery is mostly celery in like an anchovy, lemony garlicky parm, olive oil, aleppo pepper dressing that is just really punchy. And the salary is so crunchy in that way that like not a lot of things are. I also love, have you ever had tiger salad? 

Rick Martinez: No. What's that? 

Carla Lalli Music: So tiger salad, you'll find a lot in Sichuan Chinese restaurants where it's often like the antidote to spicy dishes and it's usually just celery, green, pepper, scallion, cilantro, a little bit of rice vinegar, a little bit of soy. And it, it's like very cooling, very refreshing. It's perfect for summer. I bet celery and watermelon be great together. 

Rick Martinez: Oh, no mustard, just a FYI. Also, PSA celery is a very good stimulant for the production of sperm. 

Carla Lalli Music: Well, there you go. 

Rick Martinez: So Vince, now you know what to do with the rest of your celery. 

Carla Lalli Music: Just out here, changing lives. 

Rick Martinez: Making people happier cooks, and their partners. 

Carla Lalli Music: Borderline salty. You've reached us during working hours. 

Caller 4: Hi. My name is Lucia and I have a problem. I am what you might call a explainer. Explainer. This is a term I learned about recently from another podcast that refers to someone who simply can't resist telling other people how to cook in the kitchen. I have a problem when anyone else but me is cooking in my kitchen, specifically my fiancee. Whenever he's making something, I can't help but hover over him and I offer what I think are great tips for doing things better. But I know I'm being annoying and condescending. Do either of you have this problem? Any advice on how not to do that? 

Carla Lalli Music: I have been accused of doing the same thing when other people cook in the house and you're really shooting yourself in the foot with this one because having other people cook for you is the greatest gift of all. So you don't want to ruin that. 

Rick Martinez: Also, you don't want to hurt someone's feelings. Like if they're if they're cooking for you, presumably they like you and or love you. And, you know, like, I think because I also have been guilty of this, you know, you see somebody like hacking through an onion and you're like, can I just please show you the proper way to cut an onion? 

Carla Lalli Music: Totally. 

Rick Martinez: I have to just walk away like I just go read a book in the other room. I just tell him, you know what? I'll wash dishes or I can be your sous chef, or I'll just go away and do something else. But I think it's just better for all of us if I'm just not in the kitchen. Because also, you might be making your fiancee nervous, like, maybe he's aware that you are a better cook than he is. And so maybe he just, you know, he wants to show you some love, but maybe you're hurting his feelings. And so maybe you should just leave the kitchen. 

Carla Lalli Music: Yeah, give him a little space. I was going to say the exact same thing. Like, just be the person in the living room with your feet up and lean into it. That person is having fun cooking. You could be like, I'm going to put on a rad playlist. What do you want to listen to while you're cooking? And then if you really can't control yourself, then you've got to go. 

Rick Martinez: Yeah, yeah. 

Carla Lalli Music: She has the self-awareness, and this is just some of the, like, free relationship advice that you might get here on Borderline Salty because it's all about the home and the heart. Before we go, it is time for No, thank you, please. This is a segment where we talk about ingredients that maybe haven't gotten the time to shine that they deserve. And today, we're going to be talking about an ingredient that we get tons and tons of calls about. Our listeners are very intimidated by this ingredient, don't know what to do with it, think it's more trouble than it's worth, and generally just really shy away. And that ingredient is ... artichokes. 

Rick Martinez: The first time I ever had an artichoke was in my early twenties, I was dating this guy who was from California and he loved artichokes, but he only knew of one preparation. And that is the boil them forever until they turn like this weird [phonetic] olivey armey green color. They're completely mushy. And then dip the leaves and the poor watery gross heart into butter. And I went along with it because, you know, I like butter, but I feel like that's kind of the only thing that I could taste at that point, because there was no flavor in the artichoke and I honestly just didn't even know what to do with an artichoke other than boil it forever. 

Carla Lalli Music: I grew up eating artichokes, but I love them. But we never boiled. We would always steam them. They take a long time to steam whole. And I think the reason that those preparations are popular is because it's the least amount of prep. And a lot of people are just intimidated by the physical appearance of the artichoke, which is part of the thistle family, and it is literally covered in tiny little cat claw thorns. This is a vegetable that can like injure you. 

Rick Martinez: It'll cut you. 

Carla Lalli Music: It's like on the attack. And then people are very freaked out, like there's a fuzzy choke. What the hell? Like, am I going to choke on this thing? And then when you clean them, there's quite a bit of waste too, because the leaf, like the top two thirds of the leaves, is not edible. It's too fibrous, too tough. So people get really freaked out. Oh, my God, I'm throwing so much away, da da da. But I love them and they're worth getting to know. It's worth learning how to prepare them. And I'm sure I have descriptions of how to prep them. Where Cooking Begins, I have an artichoke pasta, one of my favorites and and a pretty good description of how to do it. But it also is just something you can watch somebody do on YouTube. And once you see somebody do it once or twice, you can do it. 

Rick Martinez: And also the nice thing is, is you're never going to buy just one. So if you're making this, you're probably going to buy four, six, eight of them. So by the time you finish cleaning all of them, you are now an expert in cleaning an artichoke. 

Carla Lalli Music: Yeah, it's one of those things that people will order in a restaurant because they want somebody else to, like, do the work for them. But I think you can get beyond that. And there's a lot to like, think about all the other ingredients that we spend plenty of time prepping before we cook it. Like people are more than happy to be stripping kale off the thing to make their kale salads and like, so it takes 15 or 20 minutes. Like that's a normal amount of prep. 

Rick Martinez: Also, they're very impressive when you put down a tray of fried artichokes or grilled artichokes or braised or roasted artichokes, the people at your table are going to think, God damn, this guy loves me. That is some impressive shit. 

Carla Lalli Music: Those baby fried artichokes are actually one of the classic dishes of Rome. So whenever you go, you have to order artichokes alla guidia. And they're deep fried and crispy and amazing. 

Rick Martinez: Oh, my God. I don't know why I just thought of this, but what I really want to do now, I want to wrap artichokes in foil and throw them on the grill and then just let them, like, slow cook and get a little bit of smoke and get just nice and tender and oh my. 

Carla Lalli Music: Can you get artichokes in Mazatlan? 

Rick Martinez: I have never seen them. I can probably get them from Mexico City. I have I have a have a veg dealer in Mexico City. I might have to give him a call this afternoon. And that's it for this week's episode of Borderline Salty. But don't worry, we'll be back next week. 

Carla Lalli Music: You can find recipes and recommendations from this week's episode in our show notes. 

Rick Martinez: If you have a question or a fear you want us to help you through, you can always leave us a voicemail at eight, three, three, four, three, three food. 

Carla Lalli Music: That number again is eight, three, three, four, three, three, three, six, six, three. 

Rick Martinez: Borderline Salty is an original production by Pineapple Street Studios. We're your host. I'm Rick Martinez. 

Carla Lalli Music: I'm Carla Lalli Music. You can find links to our work in the show notes for this episode. 

Rick Martinez: Natalie Brennan is our lead producer. 

Carla Lalli Music: Janelle Anderson is our producer. 

Rick Martinez: Our managing producer is Agerenesh Ashagre.

Carla Lalli Music: Our assistant producer is Mari Orozco. 

Rick Martinez: Our head of sound and engineering is Raj Makhija. 

Carla Lalli Music: Mixing and Engineering by Davy Sumner and Jason Richards. 

Rick Martinez: Our assistant engineers are Sharon Bardales and Jade Brooks. 

Carla Lalli Music: Original music from our very own Raj Makhija. 

Rick Martinez: Additional music from Vincent Vega, Spring Gang and Glovebox courtesy of Epidemic Sound. 

Carla Lalli Music: Legal Services for Pineapple Street are provided by Bianca Grimshaw at Granderson des Rochers.

Rick Martinez:  Our executive producers are Max Linsky and Jenna Weiss-Berman. 

Carla Lalli Music: We appreciate Crystal, Ruth, Vince and Lucia for calling in this week. 

Rick Martinez: And thanks to you for listening. Talk to you next week. 

Carla Lalli Music: Yeah. Talk to you next week. 

Rick Martinez: Bye bye. 

Carla Lalli Music: Later, Gator. 

Rick Martinez: Muah. 

Carla Lalli Music: Got to go. See you later. 

Rick Martinez: Ciao.

Carla Lalli Music: Ciao. I'm going to get off.

Rick Martinez: Adios.

 Carla Lalli Music: I got to hang up. Bye bye.