CLASSY
am i a classhole?
No matter your class background, you’re bound to cross some lines and make mistakes. In this episode, Comedian Wyatt Cenac talks about where he went wrong and encourages us to be open about our financial fumbles. And advice columnist JP Brammer aka Hola Papi answers listener questions to find out who might be a Classhole. If you have a juicy question or story about class, leave us a message.
The classy hotline is open: 844-992-5277.
Read more of J.P. Brammer’s advice on his Hola Papi Substack. You can find more information about what Wyatt’s up to on his website.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION
JONATHAN MENJIVAR: A few months ago, I was in L.A. with our producer Kristen Torres. And one night we ended up at the Santa Fe Springs Swap Meet.
JONATHAN: Do you wanna get some socks?
KRISTEN TORRES: I think I wanna get some socks.
JONATHAN: The swap meet is a big market where you can buy clothing and food and toys. Some of them are indoors, and some of them … like this one, are outside … often at old drive-in movie theaters. In California, they’re … solidly working-class spaces. You pay a few bucks to get in and then you and your family can just wander the aisles … and eat for cheap. I spent a lot of time at this swap meet as a kid … my first job was here, working at a make-up stand … Kristen came here a lot growing up too … and while we were there, she wanted to pick up some socks that her mom used to get her. White, with a pink heel and toe.
KRISTEN: Hello, hi! Oh, here they are. This is what I’m looking for. You know, I realize I don’t like the blend.
JONATHAN: Oh ok.
KRISTEN: Oh no, I’ve gotten bougie.
JONATHAN: It’s like the polyester that’s going to make your feet sweat.
KRISTEN: Yeah, it’s going to be itchy and uncomfortable. How did I endure such discomfort?
JONATHAN: That might have been a little hard to hear, but what Kristen is saying there is that she doesn’t like the blend of the fabric. In the moment, when she was standing there holding the socks, I could see that she was uncomfortable … But it was also clear that she really didn’t want to talk about it. A little while later, we turned on the mics again.
JONATHAN: So, what was going on for you right there?
KRISTEN: (Big sigh) Um, Jonathan I was so disappointed in myself. I'm just going to be straight up. I felt like a big classist monster. I felt embarrassed. I was stressed that everybody was looking at me like, like scrunch my nose and put those socks back. All I wanted was to, like, get some socks. And when I felt them, I did not like them. And I just want to put them back and sidestep away as if nobody noticed. And the thing that's so wild to me about this is that… nobody probably noticed, but it just felt like I was just betraying my upbringing and betraying, like, my working class mom’s like hard work to just even be able to get me socks like that when I was a kid. And now here I am showing up as an adult into this place that I deeply respect and love and just full on reject it and say, under my breath, I don't like the blend. I did not want to say that out loud. I did not want to admit that to myself. I did not want to admit that to you. I didn't like admitting it meant that I was acknowledging how much I've changed. And I know it's innocuous because it's a… sock. But like, that's just the tip of the iceberg of all the change that has happened in my own class experience.
JONATHAN: But why is that change bad?
KRISTEN: It's not bad.
JONATHAN: You’re like putting such a negative assessment on it.
KRISTEN: You’re right, I am. It's guilt. It's like so tainted with guilt, I think is the thing. Like, when we left that sock booth, I caught myself just looking around at the other booths that sold socks, and people were picking them up like nothing, you know? And that's fine. I just felt like a jerk for not wanting them anymore.
JONATHAN: Do you feel at all like we shouldn't have been there?
KRISTEN: Oooh. (laughs)
JONATHAN: Like we don't belong at the swap meet anymore. That we were like, uh, middle class tourists who were slumming it a little bit.
KRISTEN: Damn, Jonathan. No, but yes, yes. No, but yes. No. Yes, yes, yes.
[MUSIC]
JONATHAN: No, no, no. I don’t want it to be true either. I think we all have moments like this where it just feels like we’ve crossed a line somehow… that we’ve messed up and violated some rule about class. Like we might've offended someone or been condescending … or maybe someone was that way to you? What are you supposed to do in situations like this?... From Pineapple Street Studios … this is Classy, a show about the chasms between us that are really hard to talk about, but too big to ignore. I’m Jonathan Menjivar.
[MUSIC]
JONATHAN: We actually have some advice for what to do in moments like this … when it feels like there’s a mistake that’s been made and you can’t just let it slide … And to start, we’re going to play a little game that we’re calling ‘Am I the Classhole?’ The premise is pretty simple … we opened up a phone line, we got emails … all about these uncomfortable moments where something feels off, there’s been some kind of class violation … and we invited an expert to give us some answers.
JONATHAN: Do you want to introduce yourself and explain who you are?
JP BRAMMER: Yes. Hi. My name is John Paul Brammer. I am an author and illustrator from rural Oklahoma. I write Hola Papi, which is an advice column and also a memoir in essays.
John Paul, who also goes by JP, he got an interesting perspective on class and race growing up in Oklahoma. He had family who on one side were mostly poor, Mexican laborers … and on the other side, white professionals. JP says that in his small Oklahoma town his family was what he calls “prairie rich.” They had a two-story house with air conditioning and a pool.
JONATHAN: His column, Hola Papi, started out as a joke, ‘What if Dear Abby was a gay Mexican guy on Grindr?’ It’s regularly featured in New York Magazine’s The Cut and it’s the kind of advice column that people pass around because it’s insightful and funny. JP’s got an approach that’s uniquely suited for situations that can seem small, but generate really big feelings. In other words … the kind of stuff that makes us feel like a classhole.
JONATHAN: I am a big fan of the column. And the thing that I really like about your advice is that you're thoughtful, you're helpful. And the columns end up being I think they're super emotional, but also a little bit bitchy. Like, you call people out when they need it, you know, like the way a good friend would. And I just. Can you talk a little bit about that approach? Like, how do you learn to do that? Is that just sort of who you are naturally?
JP: Yeah. That is the spirit of my abuela working through me. I think. This is a woman who attended my high school graduation in a wheelchair at the time. And when I went up to her, I said, Abuelita, ‘thank you for coming’. She says, ‘Well, I can't walk away’.
[MUSIC]
JONATHAN: JP has also directly dealt with class in his column before. Recently, someone wrote in and told him that since they were a teenager, they’d been lying about where they came from…
Quote: I tell people my parents have better careers than they do, that we go skiing and do interesting, “elitist” things when in reality I am just from a run-of-the-mill, lower-middle-class, loving home.
JP: I remember feeling so refreshed by this question because I encounter so many people that are pretending to be broke, that to encounter someone who was doing it the good old fashioned way and pretending to be wealthy, I was like oh good! Good for you!
[MUSIC]
JONATHAN: I think I um, personally, I kind of do this in both directions, like… I know that like my working class Latino immigrant background gives me some cachet, you know?
JP: Right.
JONATHAN: Like, I feel I feel proud of all that stuff. But I also, like um, like, I can't believe that college still comes up. I'm in my forties and, you know, people will still ask sometimes. Where do you go to college? And I went to… I'm just going to say this straight. I went to Cal State Fullerton, which is a state school in California. But it's very hard for me to say that straight because usually in the circles I run in the thing that has happened when I say that, uhh if I just say I went to Cal State Fullerton, I've often had the experience of people like looking down at the ground and not knowing what to say and just changing the subject, you know?
JP: Right. That's so funny. I kind of do the opposite thing where I lean too hard in the other direction, where I say I'm from state school like something I have a point to prove about it. I'm like, I'm really getting them somehow. And sometimes I wonder, like, those people probably didn't even care. I mean, this is after they've shared that, you know, they've gone to Brown or Yale, and I think I'm really doing something when I'm like, Well, I went to state school in Oklahoma. I don't know what I'm proving there. It's like an act of small revenge, but also an act of stubborn pride.
JONATHAN: Mm hmm.
JP: It's like maybe these people don't even care, but I'm pretending like they care. And that in and of itself is corny to me, but I'm doing it.
[MUSIC]
JONATHAN: OK, so let’s get into the thing that we have invited you here for, we’re going to play Am I The Classhole? And we’re going to start with a couple caller questions, and feel free to react as you hear them. Um, here’s our first question.
CALLER 1: Um I need your advice on an interaction I had with a friend recently. We have the same degree. And in the past year, she started working for the same institution I do, which is a university. I had her over for dinner recently and she started really laying into our university for underpaying her. She's saying stuff like, I barely make enough to pay for groceries, my husband has to pay for almost everything. It's really criminal. They're perpetuating class oppression. That was like, I totally agree. I definitely struggle to get by. I'm broke as well. She kind of scoffed. She was like, What do you make? I guarantee you, it's more than what I make. My position is really the bottom of the barrel. And in my opinion, we're both underpaid. But full transparency. I make 25K a year and it turns out she makes a little less than double that. She got really quiet after we revealed that, and the conversation kind of shifted away. She knows I live with roommates. She’s been pretty open about the fact that her husband makes six figures at his tech job. My question is, do people always reserve the right to complain about not making enough money or do you have to read the room first?
JONATHAN: So what do you have to say for “Please read the room”?
JP: First of all, I would have been so smug, if if I figured out that actually I was making less than the person who had just challenged me to reveal my salary. But also keeping in mind like this is kind of sad because it's people who are both being exploited, having a little competition about who's being exploited more. Which is depressing because I think that the person who called in has the right idea of solidarity, like, ‘hey, we're both kind of, you know, getting screwed over here’. I think that's the affable, good attitude to have. And the second you turn it into this, when you make the competition so explicit where it's like, ‘Well, I have it worse than you actually’, it's not always a safe bet. I wouldn't do that.
JONATHAN: Let’s move on to caller #2. This is a caller we’re calling, I am not, not ashamed.
CALLER 2: My boyfriend and I are in an entire class relationship for like, that's the phrase I'm using kind of ironically, but that my my boyfriend's of a lower socioeconomic status than I am. And we're also in an interracial relationship. But we talk a lot about class in our relationship and the ways in which it comes up. So so so many ways, obviously culturally, the way we grew up, like I went to sleep away camp every summer and he was working with his dad every summer. Like something I'm realizing in my relationship is that they actually have to actively, like, resist my own class's thoughts about my own fucking boyfriend, which is so fucked up. And it's even like the little things where like when you are in a broke period, it's like, okay, like I want to go out to eat for a nice restaurant and I should be able to have those things. And at the same time I want to honor his spending abilities. So it's like this kind of weird dichotomy of like, I know it's nothing to be shameful about and I don't want him to feel ashamed. And I have my own internalized shame as someone who is of the higher class. Woof, I got to stop here because I'm talking and talking and talking. Thank you so much. Bye.
JP: She sounds fun.
JONATHAN: She does sound fun for sure. So, what's your first reaction to this question?
JP: Yeah. I mean, my first reaction to that is there's so many different things in life and in relationships that we have to actively be conscious about. I mean, it's not just class. I mean, class ultimately folds into a lot of it. But race, gender, sexuality, gender, expression, all of those things … we live in a world where we're kind of taught to think a certain way about those things and a lot of those thoughts are harmful. Um so I think her I guess I would call it anxiety there is kind of called for and I think it's a healthy thing, because you don't want to treat someone with disrespect. And I mean, if I had to really dig into something, I would say that she doesn't have to settle for not having a special night every now and then, because I think that you can make stuff like that happen without spending too much money and someone can sort of express that you're special to them and show you a nice time without blowing a bunch of money on dinner, you know. It's not like, Oh, he can't do anything tonight. I mean, you know. I think that you can take your gal out on a nice walk in the park, for example.
MUSIC
JONATHAN: I have a question for you. When I realized we were going to be able to do this segment with you, I was so happy that I was going to have a professional to be able to help me with this. I am conflicted all the time about how to interact with people who are doing work for me. So like when I get a DoorDash delivery or something, I often find that like I'm trying to be super nice to the person and really thank them. And, and I think that's the right thing to do. But sometimes I, like, catch myself and I'm like, Oh my God, I'm just I'm being too nice. I'm totally overcompensating because there is this power dynamic at play here, and I feel bad about it. And I have a similar thing happening with the woman who cleans my house. And, you know, I should say, like I come from housekeepers. My grandmother was a housekeeper when I was a child. My mom did it, too. And like, my first exposure to wealth was being with women who were cleaning rich people's houses. Um and so now I have a housekeeper, and we've known each other a long time. She's watched my daughter grow up. And I know about her family, and I ask about her daughter and her grandson. But, you know, like we don't hang out socially, like she is there to clean my house and get paid for it. So what do I do with all this guilt that I have over the class and power dynamics at play here?
JP: Well, um, I don't know if you're going to want to hear this or not, but this might be a situation where we're too similar to help each other, because I feel the exact same way about all of my interactions with service people. I tend to think that if I can be as overly polite as possible to the point where it pains me that I can atone for my myriad sins that way, where I think that God will forgive me more and love me more if I am able to say thank you three times. And not just that, but add so much to the thank you and then I really appreciate it to the Thank you so much. I am insane when it comes to this, and I've recognized this pretty recently actually, where I was like, I think I am approaching these service interactions with an anxiety that perhaps it doesn't call for or that some might even think of condescending, if they were to really study it.
JONATHAN: Exactly!
JP: Even if it was the case. I don't think that me sort of like expressing… clearly expressing guilt by thanking them so much is going to change anything anyway. It kind of goes back to my question of who is this guilt for and is it helping anyone? Is it just self-flagellation? Um, cause I had someone clean my house a few times and, you know, we both spoke Spanish to each other. And whenever we did speak Spanish, I was always like so meticulous about my accent. I wanted her to know somehow by picking up on my Spanish, like, Oh, my family comes from a border town and they were poor, and I was trying to give my whole back story just with the way I spoke Spanish to this woman. Who for all intents and purposes she was just like smiling, laughing, like, okay, good. Okay, cool. Right. I'm going to go to your bathroom now. But yeah, the theater of the whole thing is very silly. And something that I've been thinking about a lot in terms of my own behavior. Like what if I was just able to pick up food and be normal about it? Maybe that would help both of us, me and the service person.
JONATHAN: Yeah. Yeah. So? So the thing we're supposed to do, I guess, is just like, just be nice, right? Just be nice. Normal?
JP: I think so yeah. Like honestly yeah. Sometimes “be normal" is great advice.
[MUSIC]
JONATHAN: So, we've covered salary transparency, cross-class relationships, how to not be a total weirdo when someone is doing work for you. And we got calls and emails about all kinds of things … but one thing that came up a lot was food … and eating.
CALLER 3: Hi, my question is. I live in Clinton Hill, Brooklyn. And my question is, I heard that there is a subway coming in to a strip of restaurants on DeKalb Avenue, which is populated generally by kind of overly hipster eateries and a kind of bespoke gin and tonic type of places. Now, I'm not saying I love those, but I really don't like Subway. And I wonder, is it classist of me to feel that way, to want it not to do well and to want it not to be there? Um, and I think it is. But I also don't like Subway, so I guess where's the line between snob-ism and genuine dislike?
JP: What does it say about me that the moment she said I live in Clinton Hill, my brain was immediately like, You are the classhole.
JONATHAN: I don't need to hear any more of your question!
JP: We're done here.
JONATHAN: We should explain for the audience what it means to live in Clinton Hill.
JP: Well, my experience with Clinton Hill is just like there are vines on the brownstones and everything is very manicured and the restaurants are hip and upscale, and the drinks are going to be like $25 each. That's what I think. I could be wrong. Maybe because the only times I've been there have been to do things like that in bars and restaurants like that. But great to hear there's a subway coming there. I mean, that's somewhere I can eat.
JONATHAN: So if we put aside the fact that this person lived in Clinton Hill.
JP: Okay. Yes.
JONATHAN: Is she a class hole for not wanting a subway there?
JP: Well, so far today, I feel bad for not declaring anyone a class whole. So I'm going to say, yes, she is the class hole. And I'm very happy to say that because I needed to call someone a classhole. I don't think her sin is that grievous or anything. I just think that I need to press the button at least one time. I think that her being bothered by it is quite funny. In fact, I think, you know, maybe give the subway a chance. Maybe you just haven't had the right sandwich yet. Who knows? See what it might be like to see how the other half lives. Go get a sandwich from Subway.
[MUSIC]
JP says that no matter what, we’re all going to step in it sometimes. We’re going to make mistakes. We’re going to be classholes. That’s just what it means to live in America.
JP: I think being able to accept that you're going to mess up sometimes and kind of coming to terms with where you sit in this pretty much insidious system we have going on here. I think having the wherewithal to recognize those things and be mindful of it is always helpful. And I think if you find yourself in a position where you're concealing parts of yourself or you're fabricating things or you're trying to come up with ways to fit in with people because you don't think that you're interesting enough on your own, stop that. Pretty easy advice. Quit that.
JONATHAN: Yeah. So we've got be normal. Stop that.
JP: Yes. The old advice columnist standbys of be normal and stop that. I think I'm just going to start responding with that to everything.
[MUSIC]
er, AKA Hola Papi. You can read his column at hola papi DOT substack DOT com. And if you have a juicy story or question about class you’ve been wrestling with, you can hit us up at our Classhole hotline, that number is 844-992-5277. We’d really love to hear from you!
[MUSIC]
JONATHAN: Sometimes even when we’re aware of the mistakes we’re making … we can’t help but continue to make them. Someone tells us about how they did that over and over and over again … right after this.
[AD BREAK]
JONATHAN: Jonathan here, your very classy host. So Hola Papi gave us the bad news … we’re all bound to make mistakes, particularly when we’re stepping outside of our class bubbles and interacting with people of different backgrounds. But we have to do it. We can’t stay siloed … And it’s when we’re bumping up against those borders of class that we feel it most intensely. That’s when we’re most likely to trip up or say the wrong things. It’s like how you know when you’re in a foreign country … you can really feel your foreignness. And sometimes you do some clownish things to try and blend in … And while we were putting this episode together, I had a conversation with comedian Wyatt Cenac that illustrated this really well. Like a lot of people in Hollywood, he’s had a bunch of ups and downs. Which means at times he’s felt like he’s got a lot compared to everyone else … and other times he’s felt like a failure. He’s moving through this thing many of us deal with … comparing himself to this person or that person … and it really messes with him.
[MUSIC]
JONATHAN: All Wyatt ever wanted to do when he was growing up was work in late night television. And he got some early breaks. He had an internship at SNL … and then after he moved to LA, he got a production assistant job at the Late Late Show. This was the Craig Kilborn era.
WYATT CENAC: It was not a great job. I remember my supervisor said that she would never promote me, that even if I was the second P.A. and she was like, if the first pay leaves, you're still the second PA.
JONATHAN: The job was entry level … he was young … and he was mostly driving around LA … picking up lunch orders, that kind of thing. And the pay … it was not great.
And then late in his 20s, Wyatt hears about an opening on the animated show King of the Hill.
WYATT: King of the Hill was looking for writers. It was sort of a serendipitous time and a weird time because it was a time in television where TV was so racist that the studios and networks to encourage people to hire, not white guys, the studios said if you could just try to hire a person of color, we'll pay for it, like it won't go against your show's budget. And King of the Hill was one of the few places that was like, Yeah, sure, we'll do that.
JONATHAN: So Wyatt gets the job … it pays well. Which is a really big deal, because until now … he’d been using credit cards to help pay the bills.
WYATT: And so by the time I got the job on King of the Hill, I was pretty deep in debt.
JONATHAN: Like, how much do you think?
WYATT: Uh, I'm trying to think because I've been in debt quite a few times. I'd maxed out all my credit cards, so I think by the time I got to King of the Hill, I was 30K in debt. And then once I got to zero debt, the bank was like, “Hey, would you like another credit card?” And I was like, “Oh, wow. All that thing of like, your credit's ruined forever. It really changes when you have a consistent paycheck coming in.”
JONATHAN: Did you take the offer? Did you get that card?
WYATT: I did, because I also, I also wasn't naive enough to think that I would be at this job forever and that the money train was going to keep going forever. So I think I took those credit cards thinking, “Yeah, you should have this as a cash reserve for when the bottom falls out.” And what's sad is, like, that is what I learned. That is, there are other people who perhaps grow up, maybe in more affluent households where the idea of cycling credit cards isn't a lesson that they've had to learn.
[MUSIC]
JONATHAN: Wyatt’s finally getting a real paycheck. A good one. But like a lot of people who’ve been saddled with debt for a long time … just feeling the weight of that every day … the thing he does when finally starts making some real money … is that he goes out and spends a bunch of it. After seeing other writers at King of the Hill driving nice, sensible cars … he buys one. And then he buys another one, something flashier … a brand new Jeep Cherokee. When he signs the paperwork, the salesman explains that he still owes a lot on the car he’s trading it. So he’s going to owe more than the Jeep is worth.
WYATT: I remember the guy at the dealership when he explained it to me, he was like, yeah so what you’re doing is uh, you’re going upside-down. I was like, I don’t know what that is. That, upside-down sounds cool. Yeah, it sounds like I’m doing a flip. And he’s like, yeah sure kid that’s what you’re doing, it’s cool. But I was happy. I was like, Yeah, this is a fucking cool ass car. And it was black. It had tinted windows, it had like, chromed rims. Yeah. I mean, I got it with all the bells and whistles. And I was like, “This makes sense. This is what a 27 year old should be driving when he's got a job.”
[MUSIC]
JONATHAN: Wyatt is living high. In addition to taking friends out to dinner … he’s overtipping. He’s spreading his money around. But there’s this little bell that occasionally goes off in him, a reminder that maybe … this isn’t really who he is.
WYATT: There was nothing in my DNA where I felt like I belong here, to make this kind of money. You know, my father was a working class cabdriver. My grandmother, you know, working-class job in a hospital. My mother and stepfather were working in, like, sort of middle class jobs, but there's still the opposite ends of the middle. And even within the middle, it was like when my folks bought their house, my stepfather and I had to go work for the builder to help pay for the house. I would have a wheelbarrow and concrete would get loaded onto the wheelbarrow and I would wheel it somewhere. But it's like, that's … whatever middle class we were, we were the middle class that was “you're also indentured servants to the builder who made your house.”
JONATHAN: So Wyatt’s got this unease … feeling like he doesn’t belong, feeling like he maybe doesn’t deserve the money. And so, one of the subtle things he does, probably unconsciously … maybe because he doesn’t want to be a classhole … is that whenever he sees somebody asking for money … he hands over some cash.
WYATT: And so there was a Ralphs grocery store that I lived not too far from and there was a guy that would sit outside that grocery store and he would ask people for assistance. And he was a nice guy.
JONATHAN: This one time, the guy even tried to fix Wyatt up with a woman who was walking out of the store. He was like, “You two should date. You should exchange phone numbers.”
WYATT: And so then we actually did. And she left. And I was like, Oh, thanks a lot. And we chatted for a bit. And he was like, well, you know, if you could help me out with anything....
JONATHAN: I don't wingman for free.
WYATT: . Yeah, so I was like, Well, I'm going to the grocery store. Can I get you something? He said, Yeah, if you grab me a sandwich and maybe a soda or something. And so I got him some groceries, I got my groceries, and then I got a bag for him with his groceries. And then I withdrew, like I want to say, like 40 or 60 bucks. And I put that in the bag too.
Wyatt gives the guy the bag as he’s leaving the grocery store and then he heads home.
WYATT: But then every time I would go to a grocery store and he was there, this started to become a routine like we'd sit outside the grocery store for a little while and chat. And then at some point he was like, Yeah, grab me a sandwich or whatever. And sometimes he was like, I don't really need anything, but could you give me a lift? So I was like, Yeah, sure.
JONATHAN: Wyatt wants to be a nice guy. Do a kind thing. But also, again, if part of you feels a little uncomfortable with your new money … one way of mitigating that feeling is to occasionally give some of it away. After a while, Wyatt decides to leave King of the Hill. He’s still the only person of color on the writing staff and he’s interested in becoming a performer, not just a writer. He’s saved up enough money at this point and he wants to pursue his own thing and find his own voice.
WYATT: And then I guess the big prank on me was that I didn't work for five years and was just living off the money I'd saved at King of the Hill.
JONATHAN: Five years?
WYATT: About four or five years? Yeah, four or five years I didn't work.
JONATHAN: Wow.
[MUSIC]
WYATT: But I went through my savings and then after I went through my savings, those credit cards were there and this is what they were waiting for. And they got called in action and they started to fill in. And this time I was probably about 60, 60 to 70K in debt.
JONATHAN: Ouch.
WYATT: Yeah.
JONATHAN: It gets bad enough that Wyatt is afraid he’s going to lose his apartment and maybe have to crash at a friend’s house. A collection agency keeps calling, telling him they’re going to repossess the Jeep.
WYATT: I get rid of the car. I still obviously owe all the money. I'm losing my apartment and I don't really know what I'm going to do. And now I'm riding the bus and I was on the bus. And the guy that I would see at the Ralphs, he happened to get on the bus. And he was like, Hey. And he waved and he came and sat down with me. And he was like, What are you doing riding the bus? And I said, Oh, I you know, my my car got repossessed. And he was like, Oh my God, that's terrible. And he was like, Well, look, I don't know what's going on with you, but if you're losing your place, like I, I've been cleaning myself up, and this was the first time I'd heard that he had been dealing with, you know, an addiction. Mm hmm. And he's like, I've been cleaned myself up, And another friend of mine is helping me get an apartment, and there's room for two if you. If you need a place, like, let me know. And wrote down his information. And then he got off the bus before I did. And I just remember just kind of feeling like, one how nice this person was to offer that to me, even though we didn't really know each other that well. But also what has happened for me, that I both had this moment where I was making money, more money than I'd ever made, more money than my mother and stepfather made more money than my grandmother or my father had ever made. I'm making a lot of money, but I'm also not like saving it well, or I was saving it for the thing that I thought was going to happen, which was, I'm going to lose everything.
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WYATT: I think that bus really was kind of like us going our separate ways in, on some level. And I think about the depression that I was feeling. I felt like I was going down as he was climbing out.
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JONATHAN: Just a few months after losing everything, Wyatt got his job as a correspondent on The Daily Show. He’s also had his own show on HBO, released stand up specials and albums … all the while feeling like the bottom could drop out again at any moment. Even now. And he says that sometimes … years later, when he was visiting LA… he’d go looking for the guy from Ralph’s.
WYATT: Sometimes I would drive past the Starbucks that I knew he hung out at. Kind of curious to see if he was there. Yeah. And I would drive by the Ralphs, and I don't know if I wanted to see him more than I didn't want to see him, because if I didn't see him, it meant he's doing okay for himself.
JONATHAN: Maybe Wyatt also wanted to let the guy know, hey, I’m okay now, too. But that day on the bus was the last time they ever saw each other.
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JONATHAN: Why are you telling me this? Like why are you willing to admit how hard things have been.
WYATT: Well you asked. Yeah. So it's your fault. Um, but I also think that there's. I don't know. I feel like we live in a world where people get so reflexive in their reaction of never wanting to admit wrongdoing. It's a misstep. It's a mistake. It's a thing to be embarrassed about. And I think perhaps if I had appreciated my self-worth differently, maybe I wouldn't have impulsively gone out and bought a Jeep Cherokee to fit some idea of what I thought a 26, 27 year old who's now making some money should live. I was comparing myself to rappers and professional athletes and thinking, “This is what young Black guys do.” This is what, as a young Black guy I wanted to do, I should do that. And because I don't feel like I belong in this white TV world of money. So how do I then justify this? I feel like the more we can talk about stuff like that, like that’s restorative. That’s people helping each other out.
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JONATHAN: Comedian Wyatt Cenac. You can find links to all of his work at his website … Wyatt Cenac dot com.
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JONATHAN: Dreaming about a life you should be living … the car you should be driving, the job you should have … in Wyatt’s case, it got him in trouble. But sometimes when you’re feeling stuck and closed off from a better life … fantasy is a tool that you can use. Imagining a different reality can help you peer over the walls and see what’s possible … to see your way to a different class. Next time, on Classy, we’ll talk to someone who did that … even named a record after it …we’ve got Pulp’s lead singer … Jarvis Cocker.
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JONATHAN: Classy is a production of Pineapple Street Studios. It’s written and produced by me, Jonathan Menjivar. Our Producer is Kristen Torres. Associate Producer … Marina Henke. Senior Managing Producer … Asha Saluja. Our Editor is Haley Howle. Executive Editor … Joel Lovell. Our Assistant Engineers are Sharon Bardales and Jade Brooks. Senior Engineers are Marina Paiz and Pedro Alvira. Fact checking by Tom Colligan. This episode was mixed and scored by Marina Paiz, with scoring assistance by Sharon Bardales. Music in this episode from Joseph Shabason courtesy of Western Vinyl, Joseph Shabason and Vibrant Matter and Shabason and Gunning courtesy of Seance Center, Additional music from Epidemic Sound. Our artwork is by Curt Courtney and Lauren Viera at Cadence 13. Marketing and promotion by Grace Cohen-Chen, Hillary Schupf, and Liz O’Malley. Legal services for Pineapple Street Studios by Kristel Tupja at Audacy. Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky are the Executive Producers at Pineapple Street. The next episode will be out in a week. Make sure to listen on the Audacy app, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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